U.S. Senator Introduces Bill To Ban Loot Boxes And Pay-To-Win Microtransactions

[JABEE]

Imag

If the child got around the password, guess what, I can still see what they bought on my system unless they hijack my phone and change the settings. Heck, I get emails on purchases. So if that child broke the password and bought stuff behind my back, I would know and they would be severely punished for it.

This isn't unneeded burden, this is basic responsibility of a parent.

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Companies have a responsibility not to purposefully sell bad stuff to kids.

The government can step in and create an agency if they see a company exploiting children.

Our legal representatives can introduce legislation which addresses merchants using underhanded tactics to foster addiction, a societal ill most wish to control and protect against.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

reminder:

Premium currencies are deliberately used to mislead the player to make them spend more

Games are deliberately designed to make the player feel bad (experience "fun pain") to entice them to spend money to ease said fun pain

These systems are especially effective on consumers under the age of 25 whose pre-frontal cortex is not fully developed.

all according to a renowned expert on the subject

 

[Deleted member 36578]

In which case I'm down. It's great at least the IDEA of looking at these things is being addressed.

But something like Fortnite for instance is MTX done right imo. We just need stricter controls against kids buying this garbage.

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I hear ya. Hopefully it all works out for the best.

 

[Deepwater]

In short.

Cosmetics = apearence
Pay2win = bribing a referee in a sports game to give your team an unfair advantage.

See the difference

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People are arguing that cosmetics are still predatory so...

 

[cucholix]

Companies take advantage from OCD people period, there's no deny that there's an intent of deceive them, I just find the argument that adult people should control themselves kinda misleading considerating that exist a siquiatric disorder in the firt place.

 

[Jakisthe]

In short.

Cosmetics = apearence
Pay2win = bribing a referee in a sports game to give your team an unfair advantage.

See the difference

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No. Is there a law saying that a video game has to be fair?

 

[Gatti-man]

On one hand hurray this will save plenty of games made bad by predatory micro transactions. On the other hand say hello to $80-$100 games.

 

[JABEE]

I don't see how we would actually ban play2win microtransactions.

But I could see a law requiring digital items to clearly state what they are before you purchase them (so no more loot boxes).

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It is hard to post odds on something with constantly changing odds.

And it's hard to generate record profits without intricately programmed intelligent odds-making.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

reminder:

Premium currencies are deliberately used to mislead the player to make them spend more

Games are deliberately designed to make the player feel bad (experience "fun pain") to entice them to spend money to ease said fun pain

These systems are especially effective on consumers under the age of 25 whose pre-frontal cortex is not fully developed.

all according to a renowned expert on the subject

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Thanks, looks like it might shed light on what I've been feeling regarding these practices.

 

[jdstorm]

People are arguing that cosmetics are still predatory so...

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In lootbox form they are as the act of opening a lootbox is predatory gambling.

Non lootbox cosmetics are fine to a degree

 

[Deleted member 43]

People are arguing that cosmetics are still predatory so...

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Lootboxes are predatory.

Offering a clear item for a clear price is not.

 

[JABEE]

Why do people always focus on the parents and kids playing the games and not the 30-40 year old developers and biz execs thinking of ways to extract money out of children?

When you stop developing games to excite and entertain, but to nurture dependencies to exploit, you have gone over the edge.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

In lootbox form they are as the act of opening a lootbox is predatory gambling.

Non lootbox cosmetics are fine to a degree

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Non-lootbox/MTX cosmetics are a blast. Like, unlocking cool new looks by playing the game in a reasonable time and fashion? One which doesn't warp the gameplay to make you suffer so you'll pay the ransom? Loads of fun.

 

[HeroR]

Of course it shouldn't be. But children are being hurt, and parents aren't stopping it, so I guess someone else has to.

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This is the major problem here. You're treating the symptoms, not the actual problem. It's no different than despite all the laws in place the US still have problems with underage drinking.

 

[Septy]

I can't wait until lootboxes are no longer a thing, if that day ever comes. I'm so glad Halo Reach came out before lootboxes were a thing I cant imagine trying to unlock all those armor pieces by random chance lootboxes. That was utterly unacceptable in Halo 5.

 

[Deepwater]

And FTR, Congress tried banning Porn under the guise of protecting minors and the courts threw it out because it infringed on the rights of adults. And there's no gap in between banning and what platforms do now by making you agree that you are of age and having pretty comprehensive age restriction functionality.

 

[J_Atlas]

The fact there are people arguing against this does, and doesn't surprise me tbh.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

This is the major problem here. You're treating the symptoms, not the actual problem. It's no different than despite all the laws in place the US still have problems with underage drinking.

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It's more than just a parent-child problem, though. We have to be careful to avoid narrowness of definition. This is meant to exploit the entire range of human psychology, adults as well as children.

 

[Jakisthe]

The fact there are people arguing against this does, and doesn't surprise me tbh.

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The fact that people have so little understanding of the legal system and conflate it to game design is equally unsurprising.

 

[Deepwater]

Lootboxes are predatory.

Offering a clear item for a clear price is not.

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In lootbox form they are as the act of opening a lootbox is predatory gambling.

Non lootbox cosmetics are fine to a degree

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Lots of people would disagree.

 

[ByWatterson]

Big casino industry in Missouri. Has to be a factor.

 

[Wraith]

I think the value of lootcrates is trash. Not only do I think they are gambling but worse than that they are a ripoff. Say you are a kid and your birthday comes along and you ask for a Blizzard gift card so you can get some OW skins. Of course your parents will oblige I mean it's your birthday! You spend your $20 on crates and you got nothing but sprays and shitty epic skins. Congrats you feel like shit.

I think what is lost in this debate a lot of the time is the terrible value proposition of random lootcrates and imo they need to go. Track all the purchases you want but most of what people are getting in these crates is stuff they don't want.

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Yup, that's a pretty bad birthday gift, if he wants some specific skins. In most cases the parents don't know that the gift card can't buy him the exact thing he wants, just a random assortment of items with a chance at what he wants. It's probably not going to be a good deal.

The loot box system is fine for me as an adult (as I realize it's paying for them to keep adding new heroes, maps and other content, without charging for it; and I know it's all random and I could be getting all blues and grays), but I do understand why it's not the same for kids who are in many cases spending someone else's money.

 

[HeroR]

Imag

Companies have a responsibility not to purposefully sell bad stuff to kids.

The government can step in and create an agency if they see a company exploiting children.

Our legal representatives can introduce legislation which addresses merchants using underhanded tactics to foster addiction, a societal ill most wish to control and protect against.

Click to shrink...

Yes, and if they are pushing it to kids that should be regulated. I don't agree, however, that it should be outright banned. Especially when what they're selling is no more harmful than baseball cards.

Fair enough.

That is also fair. What I don't like his the implication that government body should banned something because parents are not being parents, especially when there are systems in place to help with this issue even if it doesn't completely stop it. Especially since we're talking about a digital store that is far easier to monitor over a physical store that kids can go to without the parents noticing.

 

[jdstorm]

No. Is there a law saying that a video game has to be fair?

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Is there a law saying an NBA game has to be fair?

It's a well established social construct that competitive pursuits should have rules and a level playing field.

Suggesting that behaviour that violates the norm is ok because it hasn't previously been legislated against in an effort to argue against sensible legislation is ridiculous (and most likely self serving)

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

Why do people always focus on the parents and kids playing the games and not the 30-40 year old developers and biz execs thinking of ways to extract money out of children?

When you stop developing games to excite and entertain, but to nurture dependencies to exploit, you have gone over the edge.

Click to shrink...

It's the libertarian argument, the argument of personal responsibility. If everyone wasn't an asshole, we wouldn't need anti-hate laws because the market would work it out for everyone. It's putting the onus on the consumer rather than the company. It's like when Trump is confronted with the fact he didn't pay taxes at the same rates as others and he says "it makes me smart." It's too bad that they'd rather hold parents accountable than companies like EA, making 800 million dollars a year on a single game because of MTX.

 

[HeroR]

It's more than just a parent-child problem, though. We have to be careful to avoid narrowness of definition. This is meant to exploit the entire range of human psychology, adults as well as children.

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If it is adults, then be frank, that's the adults' problem. It's there money, if they want to spend it all on loot boxes, that's on them. If they form an addiction, it's up to them to get help. As I have dealt with addiction all though my family, you can't help an addict unless they want to help themselves and despite all the laws in place, there is very little you can do to stop them from self-destructing.

 

[BassForever]

Regulate this shit out of the industry, or tax heavily any income made on gambling mechanics.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

If it is adults, then be frank, that's the adults' problem. It's there money, if they want to spend it all on loot boxes, that's on them. If they form an addiction, it's up to them to get help. As I have dealt with addiction all though my family, you can't help an addict unless they want to help themselves and despite all the laws in place, there is very little you can do to stop them from self-destructing.

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What about people who haven't yet found something to become addicted to?

 

[darksteel6]

You're not being nickle and dimed if you don't buy them.

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I feel like saying "just don't buy them" grossly oversimplifies things and is not at all helpful advice to people with addictive personalities who feel like they HAVE to buy them, the publishers know this and try to manipulate people into feeling that way.

 

[Demacabre]

Damn! First trickle down economics making a comback and now Personal Responsibility on Era!

Maybe... just maybe the Industry should have taken some kind of Personal Responsibility first.... nah.... can't have that. They are businesses and businesses are in this to make money no matter what the human cost.

 

[Jakisthe]

Is there a law saying an NBA game has to be fair?

It's a well established social construct that competitive pursuits should have rules and a level playing field.

Suggesting that behaviour that violates the norm is ok because it hasn't previously been legislated against in an effort to argue against sensible legislation is ridiculous (and most likely self serving)

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NBA games are played for money, and even then, no, I'm not sure that there is such a law. And even if there is, well, that *only* applies to the NBA. There is absolutely no law saying that a pick-up game of basketball has to be fair.

"Social construct for competitive pursuits" is not a thing. There is no law that says video games need to be fair. Are you telling me that there should be? That the law should be changed such that every single game, in every single instance - not playing for money included - should be legally required to be fair? What does that even mean?

 

[B-Dubs]

Lots of people would disagree.

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Loot boxes are essentially gambling though. You're putting in money, hoping for a reward that you might not get. It's not much different than a raffle or a lottery and should probably be treated as such legally.

 

[Deleted member 43]

This is the major problem here. You're treating the symptoms, not the actual problem. It's no different than despite all the laws in place the US still have problems with underage drinking.

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I fail to see the problem with treating the symptom in this case.

We aren't going to change all parents across the world. But maybe we can stop game companies from exploiting children. That would be a pretty big win on its own.

 

[Deleted member 16365]

Well it's just for games aimed at kids though. Since Fortnite and Apex are both T and up, same with COD and Battlefield, this doesn't effect them at all.

If anything this just means we're going to start seeing games introduce whatever the equivalent of the "token boob" is so that they can force a higher rating through the ESRB.

 

[Deleted member 17207]

It's pretty awesome that someone with some legitimacy and authority is fighting our fight for once. Would love to see companies profiting off shit like this have to stop due to legalities vs the outcry of gamers.

It's sad it's come to this on other hand, though.

 

[AstronaughtE]

It's certainly something that needs to be regulated. I don't really see this going through though. This type of money is like heroin to these companies, and the sooner they kick the artificial high of scamming their fans to artificially inflate their books the better.

 

[Amiablepercy]

Gambling mechanics should be age gated to keep the minors out of the equation but I don't need the government telling adults what to spend their money on.

 

[HeroR]

It's the libertarian argument, the argument of personal responsibility. If everyone wasn't an asshole, we wouldn't need anti-hate laws because the market would work it out for everyone. It's putting the onus on the consumer rather than the company. It's like when Trump is confronted with the fact he didn't pay taxes at the same rates as others and he says "it makes me smart." It's too bad that they'd rather hold parents accountable than companies like EA, making 800 million dollars a year on a single game because of MTX.

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As much as I don't like Trump, he's right on this. He exploited a fair law that was purposely left in place for people like him to used.

And yes, personal responsibility is needed first and foremost before anything. Something we sorely lacked right now since people are more willing to blamed Burger King for making them fat over accepting that they made themselves fat by buying the food.

 

[Deepwater]

Loot boxes are essentially gambling though. You're putting in money, hoping for a reward that you might not get. It's not much different than a raffle or a lottery and should probably be treated as such legally.

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That's not the point of contention though. Many people are of the belief that all MTX are predatory. This includes things like cosmetics. whether or not it fits in within the scope of the bill idk(cause it hasn't been introduced), but people do consider it predatory because they believe everything should be acquirable in game.

 

[Deleted member 43]

Lots of people would disagree.

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They are free to disagree. I have significant problems with other monetization tactics, but loot boxes are the one that I think crosses the line from "ruining the game" (which sucks but isn't really a legal matter) to "this is preying on and actively harming children."

 

[HeroR]

What about people who haven't yet found something to become addicted to?

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What does this even mean? Anything can be addicting.

 

[jdstorm]

Lots of people would disagree.

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Sure, but that's mostly a get of my lawn things used to be free argument. Games as a service is a valid business model. I think that it's reasonable to have ongoing monetisation in ongoing games. That's fair developers/artists/publishers should get paid for continuing to work on a title.

Extra DLC content isn't a bad thing, provided it's done in a fair manner and saying buy X cosmetic for Y$ is perfectly reasonable

 

[JABEE]

They are free to disagree. I have significant problems with other monetization tactics, but loot boxes are the one that I think crosses the line from "ruining the game" (which sucks but isn't really a legal matter) to "this is preying on and actively harming children."

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The thing that bothers me the most is reading the people who develop and fantasize about creating these products describe the manipulation and money-making potential with glee rather than reservation and pangs of guilt.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

What does this even mean? Anything can be addicting.

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Anything can be addicting... society can't help much, only the addicts can...

Okay. Accepting that this may be true, why have laws? Or at least specific ones, like for alcohol or cigarettes and what-have-you.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

That's not the point of contention though. Many people are of the belief that all MTX are predatory. This includes things like cosmetics. whether or not it fits in within the scope of the bill idk(cause it hasn't been introduced), but people do consider it predatory because they believe everything should be acquirable in game.

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i don't think you'll find many people arguing that non-random cosmetic purchases, bought by real money and not an inscrutable fake currency, is predatory

 

[Deleted member 33887]

Hawley doing something useful? Unexpected.

Although it seems like he's pretty anti-Facebook too, so I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[B-Dubs]

That's not the point of contention though. Many people are of the belief that all MTX are predatory. This includes things like cosmetics. whether or not it fits in within the scope of the bill idk(cause it hasn't been introduced), but people do consider it predatory because they believe everything should be acquirable in game.

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Loot boxes themselves are predatory by nature. They are gambling. They're big slot machines, giant raffles, an individual lottery. You put money in hoping to get a specific prize that you might not get. I'm hard pressed to see how that's not gambling.

There's a big difference between a lootbox and being able to buy a specific skin for your character. The latter is a specific transaction and the former requires an element of chance to get what you want. One requires gambling to get what you want and the other does not.

There's nothing wrong with selling a cosmetic item, but there's something inherently wrong in selling a chance at a cosmetic item.

 

[Deleted member 43]

The thing that bothers me the most is reading the people who develop and fantasize about creating these products describe the manipulation and money-making potential with glee rather than reservation and pangs of guilt.

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It's natural for people to be proud of themselves when they accomplish a goal they set.

The problem is by that point they have already rationalized away the pain it will cause. No one is gleeful at the thought of ruining someone's life, they just...don't think about it.

 

[mael]

they should have seen it coming, at best they can expect a generalization of some kind of sin tax.
I'm all for taxing the shit out of this, it's not like ATVI and co are paying their taxes anyway.
And artistic integrity of lootboxes can die in a fire, might as well deregulate casinos if we're going that way.

 

[Professor Beef]

Don't we have parents to do this already??

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Not any good ones, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.