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Ukraine International Airlines jetliner was accidentally shot down by Iranian missiles (UP: corroborated by Canada, Iran admits to it)

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Asator

Asator

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Oct 27, 2017
904
Kurdel said:
Fog of war and nervous humans can lead to very tragic shit like this
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And this is where Iran fucked up real bad: They had a chance to clear the fog of war almost completely by closing off their airspace to civilian aircrafts (leaving only their aircrafts and potential hostiles inside it) and they didn't.

Inuhanyou said:
Someone in the Iranian military fucked up and shot down a civilian plane..and then cleared out the site...that's a huge fuck up
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Bulldozing the crash site is less of a fuck up and more of a deliberate attempt at destroying or hiding evidences, especially since Iran is claiming that it's "scientifically impossible" that they shot it down.

Arex said:
But I still think it's best to wait for neutral investigations.
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I don't think there's any reason to doubt Canada on this one honestly.
 
Inuhanyou

Inuhanyou

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Asator said:
Bulldozing the crash site is less of a fuck up and more of a deliberate attempt at destroying or hiding evidences, especially since Iran is claiming that it's "scientifically impossible" that they shot it down.
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They were originally claiming so, but have relented on it because other countries are corroborating US story who they naturally have waryness with
 
Kurdel

Kurdel

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Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Asator said:
And this is where Iran fucked up real bad: They had a chance to clear the fog of war almost completely by closing off their airspace to civilian aircrafts (leaving only their aircrafts and potential hostiles inside it) and they didn't.
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100%

I remember people on twitter that night posting scren caps of the civilian planes in the area during those few hours of fog of war.

As soon as the attack started they should have made an effort to rerout planes because the zone was hot, definitely one of many failures that lead to this tragedy.
 
Mike Works

Mike Works

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Oct 28, 2017
1,775
Arex said:
Yeah but cmiw we don't know if that's based on US intel or their own. Hopefully now that they're allowing NTSB and boeing team in we'll find out more of what happened.
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"We have intelligence from multiple sources, including our allies and our own intelligence." - Justin Trudeau

Please don't lump Canada in with George Bush's administration.
 
justin haines

justin haines

Banned
Nov 27, 2018
1,791
Trudeau will not mess around his words soon I bet.
I'm a Southern Ontario Canadian and let me tell ya we don't like USA, we don't care for the nonsense in the Middle East, and when our people die we all pay attention.

I really hope my brother isn't deployed over this.
 
Kamek

Kamek

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Oct 27, 2017
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The video on CNN right now seems to definitely suggest that there was some incendiary device shot at the plane. People here are still doubting it even though multiple countries corroborated it?
 
julian

julian

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Oct 27, 2017
16,727
Kamek said:
The video on CNN right now seems to definitely suggest that there was some incendiary device shot at the plane. People here are still doubting it even though multiple countries corroborated it?
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For some reason, people seem to think saying Iran shot down a plane that flew out of Iran with no Americans in it and clearly by accident will be used to justify an American war with Iran....I don't get it.
 

Deleted member 36135

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Dec 13, 2017
887
Watched a video. It cuts in where you can hear a dog barking which to me suggest there was a loud noise that alerted both the dog and the human that was filming...like a SAM launch. In the left of the frame you can see the light from the missile moving to the right until it hits the plane. You see the explosion and a couple of seconds later you hear it. What a tragedy. I really hope this is some sort or horrible, horrible accident and not some dumbass game of 3D chess.
 

mAcOdIn

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Oct 27, 2017
2,978
I was all for giving this time and was somewhat annoyed at people not giving Iran a chance to do an investigation before calling them liars but it's very sad if this turns out to be true.

If they did accidentally do it I think it'd be a much better look for them to act the opposite of my country(US) and apologize for it and own up to it and compensate the families. I also don't think they're in the same position as the US or Russia where people will just have to take it, Iran's small enough that some airlines or governments may stop travel to them and further hurt them financially.
 
Kamek

Kamek

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Oct 27, 2017
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Skwinglos said:
What a tragedy. I really hope this is some sort or horrible, horrible accident and not some dumbass game of 3D chess.
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All the reporting I've seen indicates that at least the Western intelligence thinks this was an accident. When you're at war, it's not unthinkable to think mistakes are made in the heat of the moment. It sucks for all the innocent people on the plane.
 
Arex

Arex

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Oct 27, 2017
12,489
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Mike Works said:
"We have intelligence from multiple sources, including our allies and our own intelligence." - Justin Trudeau

Please don't lump Canada in with George Bush's administration.
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Silex said:
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Ah I stand corrected. And yea I don't lump Canada with US, just wasn't sure how Canada came up with their intel. Anyway hope we get to find out more on what happened soon. It would be wise for Iran to open the investigation to foreign/ neutral teams and observers and hopefully they're not stupid.
 
Rockets

Rockets

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Sep 12, 2018
3,010
I hate to go down "that" line of thinking but if that orange fuck never killed Solemani none of this would've happened :/
 
kmfdmpig

kmfdmpig

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Oct 25, 2017
19,318
Skwinglos said:
Watched a video. It cuts in where you can hear a dog barking which to me suggest there was a loud noise that alerted both the dog and the human that was filming...like a SAM launch. In the left of the frame you can see the light from the missile moving to the right until it hits the plane. You see the explosion and a couple of seconds later you hear it. What a tragedy. I really hope this is some sort or horrible, horrible accident and not some dumbass game of 3D chess.
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I can't think of any reason why this would have been done on purpose. There were no Americans on board, the majority of passengers were Iranian and they would know that there would be a loss of reputation from others around the world. Iran doesn't gain from this at all and wouldn't have done it on purpose.
 

Deleted member 36135

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Dec 13, 2017
887
Kamek said:
All the reporting I've seen indicates that at least the Western intelligence thinks this was an accident. When you're at war, it's not unthinkable to think mistakes are made in the heat of the moment. It sucks for all the innocent people on the plane.
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The problem I have with this though is the US did something similar back in 1988 with Iran Flight 655 but at least it was a 'Red vs Blue' scenario when there was active shooting going on in a tense situation. Yes, a complete fuck up on the US side as far as I'm concerned. But here there's no hot zone, they're climbing altitude right near the airport, in Tehran, so any flying hostiles should have been spotted well before they reached this area. It's either profoundly stupidly dumb or at worse lets hope it was some rouge dudes that wanted to get payback knowing there wouldn't be consequences.
 
brochiller

brochiller

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Oct 25, 2017
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kmfdmpig said:
I can't think of any reason why this would have been done on purpose. There were no Americans on board, the majority of passengers were Iranian and they would know that there would be a loss of reputation from others around the world. Iran doesn't gain from this at all and wouldn't have done it on purpose.
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I don't think anybody can reasonably think Iran shot it down on purpose.

It still begs the question as to how a passenger airliner can take off from the airport of your nation's capital only for you to shoot it down minutes later.
 
MIMIC

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Dec 18, 2017
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Qikz said:
Remember when US Intelligence said they had concrete evidence of WMD's in Iraq?

Until everything is 100% confirmed I wouldn't believe anything from either side. It needs to be looked at independently by someone completely uninvolved.

Why would Iran shoot down a plain filled with their own people?
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IIRC that wasn't "US intelligence." That was the Bush Admin's distorted characterization of US intelligence.
 

Deleted member 43

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brochiller said:
I don't think anybody can reasonably think Iran shot it down on purpose.

It still begs the question as to how a passenger airliner can take off from the airport of your nation's capital only for you to shoot it down minutes later.
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The answer is poor command and control infrastructure along with inadequate lines of communication between civilian and military bodies.
 
Vilix

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Tonight's ABC's broadcast quoting Iran saying it is "scientifically impossible " they shot down the aircraft and cleaning up the crash site before third party investigators could assess the situation.
 
CrazyDude

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Oct 25, 2017
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It's really crappy of Iranians to come out and admit the accidentally shot it down. Admit you mistake, and offer compensation to the families.
 

Nerokis

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Oct 25, 2017
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ZSaberLink said:
The same thought that I had when people died at a stampede at the funeral. So many lives lost unnecessarily...
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Yeah. This is one of those things where saying something along the lines of "thanks to Trump, a civilian airliner was shot down and people died in a stampede!" would definitely be unreasonable, and yet I'd personally feel bad that this drastic, historic, warmongering thing I did inadvertently contributed to those tragedies were I him.

It turns out that somehow, some way, assassinating a high ranking official in an act of war is likely to have unintended consequences that cost lives. These particular events happen to be tragedies no single person could have orchestrated, but still.
 
Sei

Sei

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Oct 28, 2017
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It also happened in Ukraine/Russia war with MH17.

Iran soldiers deployed around their missile launch sites were waiting for retaliation from the US after their rocket attacks, and they miss identified a threat.

Hopefully Canada leads an independent investigation much like the Dutch did on MH17. I wouldn't trust either the US or Iran on anything they say.
 
Cow Mengde

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Oct 26, 2017
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Did anyone survive this? When it first happened, I heard there were survivors, but I wasn't sure if it was real with all (rightful) hysteria going around.
 
Shopolic

Shopolic

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Oct 27, 2017
6,819
It was so hard to sleep last night and I woke up 3,4 times. It's really sad to think about those poor passengers in the last seconds of their lives... :(

Cow Mengde said:
Did anyone survive this? When it first happened, I heard there were survivors, but I wasn't sure if it was real with all (rightful) hysteria going around.
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No, the impact was so bad.
There was only one person who was driving to airport, but police made him stop because of speed and he didn't board the flight, so he's still alive.
 
subpar spatula

subpar spatula

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BillyRockets said:
I hate to go down "that" line of thinking but if that orange fuck never killed Solemani none of this would've happened :/
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This is so fucking stupid that it's irritating. Like, the blame could be passed down even further than Trump, but that wouldn't matter. The blame is Iran. Iran was incompetent and unintentionally shot down a civilian plane. They did it. They controlled the SAM. They didn't have good procedures in place that prevented this. Trump escalating things with them isn't at fault. It's really annoying seeing people go, "Yeah, well, Iran shot down the plane... BUUUUT it wouldn't have happened if Trump didn't escalate things." People died because of Iran's sole incompetence. Accept that.
 
yellow wallpaper

yellow wallpaper

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I was young, but remember when we took down an Iranian commercial plane. Mistakes happen, but of course these kind of mistakes should never happen in the first place! I feel for the innocent lives lost.
 
Landy828

Landy828

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Oct 26, 2017
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A bit random, I found it interesting that this episode of mythbusters was next on my watch list. Although this was a SAM, not an RPG, it's interesting seeing the difference between reality and a hollywood-style weapon hit. Green SUV is reality with a real RPG and the other SUV is a hollywood-style fake RPG.

giphy.gif


Massive explosions or the complete demolition of things isn't always realistic.

RIP to these poor people.
 
Chikor

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Landy828 said:
A bit random, I found it interesting that this episode of mythbusters was next on my watch list. Although this was a SAM, not an RPG, it's interesting seeing the difference between reality and a hollywood-style weapon hit. Green SUV is reality with a real RPG and the other SUV is a hollywood-style fake RPG.

giphy.gif


Massive explosions or the complete demolition of things isn't always realistic.

RIP to these poor people.
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RPG are nothing like surface to air missiles.
This is a shaped charge that don't make a lot of sense as an-anti aircraft weapon. Anti aircraft missiles tend to have fragmentation charges (might be using wrong English term here).
And I'm gonna be honest, a ton of people died, not sure awesome splosion porn from mythbusters is the most fitting content here.
 
BlastProcessing

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Oct 25, 2017
8,276
subpar spatula said:
This is so fucking stupid that it's irritating. Like, the blame could be passed down even further than Trump, but that wouldn't matter. The blame is Iran. Iran was incompetent and unintentionally shot down a civilian plane. They did it. They controlled the SAM. They didn't have good procedures in place that prevented this. Trump escalating things with them isn't at fault. It's really annoying seeing people go, "Yeah, well, Iran shot down the plane... BUUUUT it wouldn't have happened if Trump didn't escalate things." People died because of Iran's sole incompetence. Accept that.
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There are no such thing as procedures that would 100% prevent this. Once things get into that level of alert, systems have to allow for the potential of catastrophic error in exchange for a higher probability to shoot down military threats. That's just how it is. It's why escalation is dangerous.
 
Strat

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subpar spatula

subpar spatula

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BlastProcessing said:
There are no such thing as procedures that would 100% prevent this. Once things get into that level of alert, systems have to allow for the potential of catastrophic error in exchange for a higher probability to shoot down military threats. That's just how it is. It's why escalation is dangerous.
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Why is there a need to even state this? The plane was shot down because of poor procedure. What point is there to go, "Actually, there's no procedure that can 100% prevent this?"
 
ChristianH94

ChristianH94

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Apr 14, 2019
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BlastProcessing said:
There are no such thing as procedures that would 100% prevent this. Once things get into that level of alert, systems have to allow for the potential of catastrophic error in exchange for a higher probability to shoot down military threats. That's just how it is. It's why escalation is dangerous.
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Things are definitely tense but that still doesn't change the fact Iran is at fault for shooting a civilian airline that had zero to do with the US and should have ordered all planes to be grounded.
 

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mAcOdIn said:
I was all for giving this time and was somewhat annoyed at people not giving Iran a chance to do an investigation before calling them liars but it's very sad if this turns out to be true.

If they did accidentally do it I think it'd be a much better look for them to act the opposite of my country(US) and apologize for it and own up to it and compensate the families. I also don't think they're in the same position as the US or Russia where people will just have to take it, Iran's small enough that some airlines or governments may stop travel to them and further hurt them financially.
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Opposite of how the US dealt with the 1988 incident??? Um you do know the US recognized their fault in that and paid out millions in reparations and also said they "deeply regretted" that it happened. That would be a great thing for Iran to do here. But now Iran is denying that they even shot it!
 
StrangerDanger

StrangerDanger

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Jul 18, 2018
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Chikor said:
RPG are nothing like surface to air missiles.
This is a shaped charge that don't make a lot of sense as an-anti aircraft weapon. Anti aircraft missiles tend to have fragmentation charges (might be using wrong English term here).
And I'm gonna be honest, a ton of people died, not sure awesome splosion porn from mythbusters is the most fitting content here.
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Landy828 said:
A bit random, I found it interesting that this episode of mythbusters was next on my watch list. Although this was a SAM, not an RPG, it's interesting seeing the difference between reality and a hollywood-style weapon hit. Green SUV is reality with a real RPG and the other SUV is a hollywood-style fake RPG.

giphy.gif


Massive explosions or the complete demolition of things isn't always realistic.

RIP to these poor people.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Most AA missiles will have proximity fusing because the targets they aim at are really fast. So being precise with a missile is harder if it was dead on impact, so instead they will explode close to the object or its path. Thus they will explode out fragments like a grenade. Now with Anti-Tank missiles, they will strike before initiating the warhead
 
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