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SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
What do you do when you feel disenfranchised or alienated? When you feel like the world and society at large doesn't care.
Or is something like Project Mayhem inherently unappealing to decent folk and only misanthrope's would fall for it?
 

Auberji

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
I don't really feel that Tyler taught the wrong lesson as much as exploited the insecurities of others, it's the approach he took that lead to Project Mayhem and the like. It wasn't about the members, it was about Tyler and his ego.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Finding balance in life, not letting masculine insecurities drive you to start a cult to bring down the US banking system.
 
OP
OP
SmokingBun

SmokingBun

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,091
I don't really feel that Tyler taught the wrong lesson as much as exploited the insecurities of others, it's the approach he took that lead to Project Mayhem and the like. It wasn't about the members, it was about Tyler and his ego.

That's a good point, he didn't really care about the members, "his name was Robert Paulson" scene is proof enough.
They may as well have been mindless drones (and they were!) that served him.
 

Hawkster

Alt account
Banned
Mar 23, 2019
2,626
Speaking of Fight Club, I used to be obsessed over that Calvin/Hobbes theory several years back.

Man, those were crazy times I spent
 

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,618
Atlanta, GA
The biggest problem with disenfranchisement is that people rarely look within to effect change. Self improvement should always be the first thing we look at.

How can we improve ourselves so we don't make the same mistakes? How do we improve ourselves so that we can create positive change in society? What part of the problem have I contributed to, and how can I fix that?
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
I mean he started a nation wide fascistic terrorist organization. That was the real lesson. Fascist blowhards recruit by preying on the vulnerabilities of people who feel let down by the promises of wealth and happiness in society. They "other-ize" people who aren't in the club, but inside the club you'll find camaraderie and belonging, and that's the allure.

I forgot exactly how Jack came to resent all of that, but by the end he seemed to start treating Marla with empathy rather than contempt... So that's probably part of the alternative path. Openness, inclusivity...
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,485
There's an excellent Folding Ideas video about this.



Anyway, here's my thoughts on the topic:

The right lesson is to learn to accept help from others when it feels like the world is against you. Cishet white men are the most privileged people on the planet, but that doesn't make them immune to alienation and depression. When you start to feel like you're losing your rights to others (which is really just other people gaining the same privileges you have), it's easy to feel like lashing out is the right thing to do, to take back what's yours. That's not the appropriate reaction.

Reaching out to others who have experienced similar problems as you and asking for advice and support isn't exclusive to cishet white men, by the way; that's just the lens the text uses to look at alienation, therefore it's the primary example I used. I highly encourage people of every background, should they feel they're stuck in a rut and have no idea how to escape, to ask others for help. Knowing you're not alone in your struggles isn't a cure-all for alienation and depression, but it helps to know that you're not alone in your experiences, and other people have gotten through them, just as you can.

Jack seeks help through crafting the personality of Tyler Durden so he can better grasp the "manly" ideal that he's had preached to him since he was a kid. It's a classic pitfall society puts people in to make toxic masculinity easier to spread (keep in mind, toxic masculinity is not exclusively experienced or propagated by men). The actual Fight Club (as it appears in the movie, not the movie itself) can be seen as an attempt on Jack/Tyler's part to recreate the group therapy that, while dishonestly attended by Jack, was working for him and helping him to heal. Problem is, given the Tyler persona is the one who made it, it's a twisted and cruel facsimile of group therapy, where violence is the solution and avoiding talking about your problems (and the group itself) is seen as core to the experience.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,091
Sydney
He misidentified his sense of alienation and lack of control of his life as a consequence of feminism and a breakdown of traditional masculinity.
 

Auberji

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
I mean he started a nation wide fascistic terrorist organization. That was the real lesson. Fascist blowhards recruit by preying on the vulnerabilities of people who feel let down by the promises of wealth and happiness in society. They "other-ize" people who aren't in the club, but inside the club you'll find camaraderie and belonging, and that's the allure.

There was a video essay posted here a while back by a youtuber who's name escapes me atm (Maggie Mae Fish?) that covered this as the opposite which I found interestng. It was a weaponisation of othering to create an in group, out group mentally and that the members of the group were the others in society.
 

Tremorah

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,946
Make a youtube channel about the last jedi

giphy.gif
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,696
Is it the conclusion that nothing Tyler said had merit? Because I think the film's (and Tyler's) views on capitalism seem even more relevant than twenty years ago.

(And I will always, always, love that quote about the Sears tower, no matter what anyone says).

Self improvement should always be the first thing we look at.

Self improvement is masturbation.
 

Beef Supreme

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,073
Is it the conclusion that nothing Tyler said had merit? Because I think the film's (and Tyler's) views on capitalism seem even more relevant than twenty years ago.

(And I will always, always, love that quote about the Sears tower, no matter what anyone says).



Self improvement is masturbation.

That's my view as well.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
I don't talk about fight club because it is used by edge lords and incels to justify their misogyny and nihilism. Tyler Durden is Tucker Carlson, sometimes he criticises the system for the right reasons but always draws the most destructive conclusion
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
Tyler Durden didn't exist though, we're just talking about Ed Norton's character's unrestrained subconscious aren't we? Or are we?
 

Yossarian

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,261
Tyler Durden didn't exist though, we're just talking about Ed Norton's character's unrestrained subconscious aren't we? Or are we?

Depends what you mean by existed. 🤔

I came into this thread to post this quote and state that it is 100% wrong and misguided. I disagree w Tyler here first and foremost. This is the root of any criticism you may want to throw at Tyler and his motivations.

Not saying I agree with him (the irony of the statement being delivered by Brad fucking Pitt is not lost on me), but I'd be interested in reading your take in more detail.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
I love this movie. The second half of the film is slowly revealing to the audience they too fell for a charismatic cult leader and that Tyler was an asshole terrorist who deserved to die vs a revolutionary.
 

Spinluck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,427
Chicago
Tyler taught men are incredibly insecure and fragile creatures.

No matter what front they put up.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
The biggest problem with disenfranchisement is that people rarely look within to effect change. Self improvement should always be the first thing we look at.

How can we improve ourselves so we don't make the same mistakes? How do we improve ourselves so that we can create positive change in society? What part of the problem have I contributed to, and how can I fix that?

Positive liberty vs. negative liberty
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,377
I love this movie. The second half of the film is slowly revealing to the audience they too fell for a charismatic cult leader and that Tyler was an asshole terrorist who deserved to die vs a revolutionary.
Would suggest checking out the book too. It's a quick read, and also brilliant (plus has a better ending).

The one part that has really stuck with me throughout the years is like two or three pages where the narrator is absolutely convinced he has cancer, completely obsesses over it, only to go to a doctor and... Not have cancer. He's almost disappointed with the result, and it's just perfect for the character.

EDIT: I'm not the biggest fan of this, but at the same time, it's super interesting (picks up about 6 minutes in when it gets to non-movie content). They basically went ahead and recreated the book ending, complete with pretty cringe-y attempts at being Ed Norton and Brad Pitt:




EDIT 2: Alternatively, just look at this excerpt from the unfilmed chapter 30 which sums up the idea of it:
I've met God across his long walnut desk with his diplomas hanging on the wall behind him, and God asks me, "Why?"
Why did I cause so much pain?
Didn't I realize that each of us is a sacred, unique snowflake of special unique specialness?
Can't I see how we're all manifestations of love?
I look at God behind his desk, taking notes on a pad, but God's got this all wrong.
We are not special
We are not crap or trash either.
We just are.
We just are, and what happens just happens.
And God says, "No, that's not right"
Yeah. Well. Whatever. You can't teach God anything.
 
Last edited:

Awesome Kev

Banned
Jan 10, 2018
1,670
Self improvement is masturbation.

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything

I feel these two quotes are at the heart of the story. From a certain point of view, he's not wrong. Society is pretty shit a lot of the times and it needs massive adjustments. It's just the way he goes about things, and the extremes that he's unafraid to go to ("near-life experiences") is where he goes wrong.

Self destruction and bringing humanity back to hunter-gatherer status isn't going to solve all of our problems. But to Tyler, less is more, so it's the only solution. He's the ultimate minimalist disguised as an anarchist.
 

Reizzz

Member
Jun 19, 2019
1,813
Ultimately you have to take ego out of it. Being resentful or vengeful solves absolutely nothing. It only fuels your emotional state and does nothing to satiate it. Taking responsibility for yourself regardless of how you got where you are is the best way. Being proactive about seeking help, surrounding yourself with good people and getting rid of the toxic ones.

Having realistic goals helps too. You can't just go from A-Z you need the b,c,d etc. and you need to be proud about getting to each goal and you need to. You can't go from dead-end job to dream job in 3 easy steps.
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,696
I came into this thread to post this quote and state that it is 100% wrong and misguided. I disagree w Tyler here first and foremost. This is the root of any criticism you may want to throw at Tyler and his motivations.

And there's nothing wrong with that

Yeah, to clarify, I mostly quoted that in jest because it was just too fitting.

I don't think there's anything wrong with self improvement and Durden + army very much engage in a form of self improvement, they just call it differently, probably think of it as self actualization, see "build a house" - "write a novel" examples in the film, which is also self improvement, though not the corporate/fake type Durden is vehemently against. He wants something real. I still think he has a point there. His message for me has value in that sense without turning me into some idiot radical.

He's the ultimate minimalist

Kinda funny given the role Ikea plays in the film, and the Ikea boy insult.
 

Laserdisk

Banned
May 11, 2018
8,942
UK
The lesson?

Mod Edit: Removed NSFW image

This is never not funny
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
There's an excellent Folding Ideas video about this.



Anyway, here's my thoughts on the topic:

The right lesson is to learn to accept help from others when it feels like the world is against you. Cishet white men are the most privileged people on the planet, but that doesn't make them immune to alienation and depression. When you start to feel like you're losing your rights to others (which is really just other people gaining the same privileges you have), it's easy to feel like lashing out is the right thing to do, to take back what's yours. That's not the appropriate reaction.

Reaching out to others who have experienced similar problems as you and asking for advice and support isn't exclusive to cishet white men, by the way; that's just the lens the text uses to look at alienation, therefore it's the primary example I used. I highly encourage people of every background, should they feel they're stuck in a rut and have no idea how to escape, to ask others for help. Knowing you're not alone in your struggles isn't a cure-all for alienation and depression, but it helps to know that you're not alone in your experiences, and other people have gotten through them, just as you can.

Jack seeks help through crafting the personality of Tyler Durden so he can better grasp the "manly" ideal that he's had preached to him since he was a kid. It's a classic pitfall society puts people in to make toxic masculinity easier to spread (keep in mind, toxic masculinity is not exclusively experienced or propagated by men). The actual Fight Club (as it appears in the movie, not the movie itself) can be seen as an attempt on Jack/Tyler's part to recreate the group therapy that, while dishonestly attended by Jack, was working for him and helping him to heal. Problem is, given the Tyler persona is the one who made it, it's a twisted and cruel facsimile of group therapy, where violence is the solution and avoiding talking about your problems (and the group itself) is seen as core to the experience.

Great video. Thanks for sharing
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,534
I think from a video essay I remember seeing was that the lesson was in the movie all along.

Ed norton's character felt a genuine sense of happiness and warmth being hugged by robert paulson, he just chose to blow it off and treat it for laughs later. He felt a real connection with Marla, but he couldn't do that openly and hid behind his persona.

I guess if you wanted to try and take a quote from the movie you could say that he didn't really lose everything until he lost his Tyler Durden illusion, and then he could be free to hold hands with Marla.
 

Chojin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,624
Don't make Fight Club more complicated than it really is. Fight Club is very simple: Give in to your feelings. It's a love story.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
The answer isn't going to be very satisfying. We have to build a new version of family and community that gives people a sense of purpose and belonging or some Tyler Durden type will come along and do it for you.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
Would suggest checking out the book too. It's a quick read, and also brilliant (plus has a better ending).

The one part that has really stuck with me throughout the years is like two or three pages where the narrator is absolutely convinced he has cancer, completely obsesses over it, only to go to a doctor and... Not have cancer. He's almost disappointed with the result, and it's just perfect for the character.

EDIT: I'm not the biggest fan of this, but at the same time, it's super interesting (picks up about 6 minutes in when it gets to non-movie content). They basically went ahead and recreated the book ending, complete with pretty cringe-y attempts at being Ed Norton and Brad Pitt:




EDIT 2: Alternatively, just look at this excerpt from the unfilmed chapter 30 which sums up the idea of it:



Super interesting. I really appreciate this. Especially as someone who has not read the novel. I will likely check it out now, it's been on my list for years.
 

Chojin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,624
I think from a video essay I remember seeing was that the lesson was in the movie all along.

Ed norton's character felt a genuine sense of happiness and warmth being hugged by robert paulson, he just chose to blow it off and treat it for laughs later. He felt a real connection with Marla, but he couldn't do that openly and hid behind his persona.

I guess if you wanted to try and take a quote from the movie you could say that he didn't really lose everything until he lost his Tyler Durden illusion, and then he could be free to hold hands with Marla.


This is the right track. Pretty much all of Palahniuk's books points are the protagonist coming to grips with loving someone. In Fight club it was the Narrators love for Marla. For Choke it was Victor getting over his mother and loving Paige.

For Lullaby, Carl had to move on from the death of his wife and kid and came to love Helen, whatever form she took.

Rant is crazy shit but really it's about Rant Casey loving his mother and Echo and will do anything to protect them.

Pygmy is the protagonist choosing Cat Sister (and his adopted family) over his own country.

Pretty much any of his books is about love, no matter how fucked up it could be. Survivor I'm not entirely sure on but I only read it once like 20 years ago.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,680
Tyler has inklings of a good path, in that forming a community of support is positive and healthy - it's just that when that community isolates itself from a larger communal and societal interaction and turns to violence that it becomes destructive. A truly radical message, especially for the white men in the film, would be one that is focused on kindness and less on Violence. I think the film does touch on this though, it's just depicted through subtlety in comparison to the more outwardly apparent aspects of how fighting creates bonds for the characters.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,120
Limburg
This is the right track. Pretty much all of Palahniuk's books points are the protagonist coming to grips with loving someone. In Fight club it was the Narrators love for Marla. For Choke it was Victor getting over his mother and loving Paige.

For Lullaby, Carl had to move on from the death of his wife and kid and came to love Helen, whatever form she took.

Rant is crazy shit but really it's about Rant Casey loving his mother and Echo and will do anything to protect them.

Pygmy is the protagonist choosing Cat Sister (and his adopted family) over his own country.

Pretty much any of his books is about love, no matter how fucked up it could be. Survivor I'm not entirely sure on but I only read it once like 20 years ago.

Rant is so good

Where is the rest of the trilogy Chuck?