I'm glad you posted this, because I actually wondered the same thing. "Blind" and "double-blind" studies are extremely common in research and has nothing to do with vision.
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Twitch removes 'Blind Playthrough' tag after disability criticism
- Thread starter Homura
- Start date
I'm glad you posted this, because I actually wondered the same thing. "Blind" and "double-blind" studies are extremely common in research and has nothing to do with vision.
Most people in here seem to be having a totally reasonable discussion of the matter?
If you're taking that as "acting really shitty" and being driven to alcoholism, I highly advise you steer clear of Twitch and Twitter where people are actually acting shitty and cracking all sorts of jokes (well, mostly the same couple jokes ad nauseum) at blind people's expense.
There are some people in this thread with visual impairments, chill out.
That's why I said there was a debate to be had. I don't know that removing the tag is the right option, but most people in this thread assumed that no one in the community supported this.
It's more then that in this thread.
And you could say the same about the "community" that was for it
Thank you for this. Good post.
The intellectual laziness of some of these arguments is driving me up the wall.
This is so fucking dumb. I actually lost for words about this being considered. Blind the word is not only the term of a disability but used in tons of other ways in the English language. If it were something used in a negative way fine but this simply means not knowing just like a blind study or blind test that can be performed by people without a disability.
This is going looking for something to "fix" for internet karma without it being an issue.
This is going looking for something to "fix" for internet karma without it being an issue.
User banned (permanent): Troll account
And after reading the first 5 comments, I am back to Neogaf, where the idiocy is slightly less rampant.
I've met people who are deaf that absolutely do not like being referred to as a "deaf person".
ok 3 post andy
There is a point where you have to be purposely disingenuous to misunderstand the intent of a word, and at that point I find it very difficult to listen to you. This doesn't mean I am against listening to the idea of discontinuing the use of words if someone can demonstrate the negative effects they cause, like many slurs do, but as yet, absolutely no one has demonstrated how the use of the term "blind playthrough" in any way perpetuates any kind of negativity or harm. And at that point, I don't think that giving up control of the word to a subset of people who don't like it, and are disingenuous about it's intent, and ignoring the rest of those to whom it applies, who would prefer to continue using it or find the removal of it laughable, is justified.
Language can evolve, yes, but letting it be dictated arbitrarily by the whims of some people who claim to speak for a group -- who may not even in majority agree with them -- and who cannot demonstrate actual harm or perpetuation of harm, and then condemning those who do not immediately get onboard as immoral, is just asinine.
What's even more aggravating to me is in lieu of actual demonstrations of how the term is harmful, they instead just try to equate it to other words, in a way of sort of piggy-backing off the legitimacy of those terms as offensive, nevermind that they don't even bother to actually align them logically. Those other words are harmful, because they are slurs. They are expressly used with the intent of harm. And when they are invoked, that meaning is conveyed. This is why they are bad, because the meaning is bad. Words don't fucking mean anything by default. We imbue them with meaning via intent. With slurs, the intent is well established in culture. To try to compare a word not used negatively with a slur is shockingly intellectually lazy. I cannot believe anyone would give that kind of reasoning the time of day. That is just. Stunningly asinine.
I seriously cannot understand how someone with any self awareness could try and make that comparison with a straight face. Like, I have to believe you are purposely being disingenuous to make such a bad argument. Like. Yeah. I am at a loss.
Language can evolve, yes, but letting it be dictated arbitrarily by the whims of some people who claim to speak for a group -- who may not even in majority agree with them -- and who cannot demonstrate actual harm or perpetuation of harm, and then condemning those who do not immediately get onboard as immoral, is just asinine.
What's even more aggravating to me is in lieu of actual demonstrations of how the term is harmful, they instead just try to equate it to other words, in a way of sort of piggy-backing off the legitimacy of those terms as offensive, nevermind that they don't even bother to actually align them logically. Those other words are harmful, because they are slurs. They are expressly used with the intent of harm. And when they are invoked, that meaning is conveyed. This is why they are bad, because the meaning is bad. Words don't fucking mean anything by default. We imbue them with meaning via intent. With slurs, the intent is well established in culture. To try to compare a word not used negatively with a slur is shockingly intellectually lazy. I cannot believe anyone would give that kind of reasoning the time of day. That is just. Stunningly asinine.
I seriously cannot understand how someone with any self awareness could try and make that comparison with a straight face. Like, I have to believe you are purposely being disingenuous to make such a bad argument. Like. Yeah. I am at a loss.
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Anyone else find the original argument being made by the AbleGamers COO kind of weird. They basically used a false equivalence to make their argument
Like, that's not equivalent AT ALL. People were attaching a negative connotation to "gay" and making it a slur/insult when it isn't. Using "blind" the way its defined isn't doing that. Not to mention a "blind playthrough" isn't even a negative situation in the first place and the word "blind" in it isn't meant to be a bad thing.
Like, that's not equivalent AT ALL. People were attaching a negative connotation to "gay" and making it a slur/insult when it isn't. Using "blind" the way its defined isn't doing that. Not to mention a "blind playthrough" isn't even a negative situation in the first place and the word "blind" in it isn't meant to be a bad thing.
I'm near sighted so I can't speak with much authority but I've never heard or seen the phrase "blind play through" used in a derogatory manner to diminish the blind ever in my life. The context is very specific to playing a game without any information or guide. I think if Twitch really gave a damn like they pretend to, they would've implemented several of the suggestions I've seen on twitter and in this thread in regards to making their site and services more accessible for the blind.
It just boggles my mind. I could show this statement to a 9 year old and they'd be able to tell me what a bad comparison it is.
This is a very... bizarre and unnecessary change. If you wanted to help your site become more accommodating towards visually impared and blind people, you could actually consult them on how to work on making the site more user-friendly for them. But that would actually cost time, effort and money. It just reeks of being a cheap PR move considering everything going on with Twitch's nonsensical DMCAs and literally hosting the US military to recruit on their site.
Also, blind is not a discriminatory word like a racial slur, the r word, autistic, or "reeee" (which multiple big streamers throw around nonchalantly with no repercussions). This just seems so... hollow. Empty performative wokeness as a substitute for real positive change for those with disabilities of all shapes and sizes.
Also, blind is not a discriminatory word like a racial slur, the r word, autistic, or "reeee" (which multiple big streamers throw around nonchalantly with no repercussions). This just seems so... hollow. Empty performative wokeness as a substitute for real positive change for those with disabilities of all shapes and sizes.
Nothing.
I echo a lot of the posts here in that I never thought of the "blind" in "blind playthrough" with negative connotations. For an example that does have these connotations: the term "gimp" in Smash/other platform fighters does have them. It equates disabilities with the disadvantage state it puts you in, where you can't recover. The "blind" in "blind playthrough" however is not really used in negative contexts. It focuses on the positives from a new and untainted playthrough, not being at a disadvantage from not knowing much about the game.
That change didn't bother me because "master" was not really a good name for the primary branch anyway. A lot of projects used it for development/staging purposes so it was never really a "master" version in the first place for a lot of them. Most projects use tags for releases anyway, which are what "master" versions should be.
They don't because that cost time, effort and last but not least, money. Probably lots of money. Easier just to edit some text here and there and call it the day!
There's a difference between a first playthrough and blind playthrough. I can go into a game knowing a lot about it but be playing it for the first time, or go into a game knowing absolutely nothing about it and playing it for the first time. The latter would be a blind playthrough. The term blind is also not exclusive to vision.
And the internet does as it always does, digs up your past.
It's almost like they know how the second definition of the word works but decided to say fuck it for PR points, although it seems to have backfired much like the whole DMCA debacle
This is a misguided change.
Words have different meanings depending on the context, "blind" in this case has nothing to do with a disability of any kind, it is not being used as a pejorative, and it is not ableist to use it in this context.
In fact, the term "blind playthrough" is almost always used in a neutral - positive manner to advertise content.
There are ways we can be better to people without misinterpreting perfectly good use of language.
And because people have been citing it in this thread as well, "twitch" is also not always used in a pejorative, negative, or ableist sense and has multiple different definitions. A twitch isn't always involuntary and can refer to a short pull or tug, or a sudden movement. "Twitch gameplay" is also usually used in a neutral to positive manner as it means quick and reactive.
Twitch as a platform has bigger fish to fry.
Also, as has been pointed out, Spohn who is normally great, used a rotten comparison here that he really should not have.
Words have different meanings depending on the context, "blind" in this case has nothing to do with a disability of any kind, it is not being used as a pejorative, and it is not ableist to use it in this context.
In fact, the term "blind playthrough" is almost always used in a neutral - positive manner to advertise content.
There are ways we can be better to people without misinterpreting perfectly good use of language.
And because people have been citing it in this thread as well, "twitch" is also not always used in a pejorative, negative, or ableist sense and has multiple different definitions. A twitch isn't always involuntary and can refer to a short pull or tug, or a sudden movement. "Twitch gameplay" is also usually used in a neutral to positive manner as it means quick and reactive.
Twitch as a platform has bigger fish to fry.
Also, as has been pointed out, Spohn who is normally great, used a rotten comparison here that he really should not have.
This is just silly
Its perfectly possible for someone to have used a problematic/speculated to be problematic word in the past but with the coming of years changed their stance about it. This isn't a gotcha in any sense. People change.
It's not meant as a gotcha from me, but rather that they clearly understand it's usage which means they should also understand it's not used in a offensive and derogatory way and therefor does not need to be removed. It's a well common word of description.
I'm open to a replacement on a personal, perhaps even slightly selfish, level. But I do think it's at the very least worth being wary of throwing out terms without solid justification... if not for the terms themselves, the optics of how faux-progressivism makes progressives look. It's certainly not an easy win-win, neutral-win, or necessarily even a lose-win.
Saylor had a very soft stance on the matter. And while I'm not as comfortable as you are just assuming that Spohn has the backing of blind players here, I don't necessarily attribute any ill intent on Spohn's behalf... nonetheless his comparisons to things such as the r-word are wildly misguided at best. And if those comparisons are what's influencing some people to start considering the term offensive, then they're being misguided.
I think calling it faux progressivism when it came from a disabled advocacy organization who have no reason to misrepresent their interest groups is not cool.
you've stated your case and you're clearly in the majority in the thread. We can leave it at that.
Surely a blind playthrough isn't the same as a first playthrough. A blind playthrough implies you know nothing about the game, don't want to be told about the game and you're not using any strategies, guides, hints or tips. A first playthrough simply means it's the first time you're playing a game which applies to the majority of game playthroughs streamed on Twitch.
I guess it doesn't really matter all that much to me one way or another but I can't help but feel this doesn't really achieve anything.
I guess it doesn't really matter all that much to me one way or another but I can't help but feel this doesn't really achieve anything.
To be clear, the faux progressivism was directed at Twitch and their decision to remove the term. Neither Spohn nor Able Gamers did that, they merely got the ball rolling with the discussion, which is perfectly fair to engage in... even if I think Spohn's comparisons to slurs are misguided.
But sure, we can drop it here.
Is there more discussion among people who are blind about this topic? This is the first time I've heard about blind being offensive when used in such a context.
I don't really care about getting rid of it and thinking about it now I do get where people might have a problem with it.
I don't really care about getting rid of it and thinking about it now I do get where people might have a problem with it.
Unless you're blind, you can't really talk about this and there are blind people raising concerns about how twitch is actually doing this for good PR and not making the site really useful for blind people. So, yeah, we should actually call them out and hear what blind people have to say and, as of now, it seems they're not digging this.
This reminds me a lot of realtors no longer using the term "master bedroom" as an empty show of support for BLM. I'd really like to hear more opinions from blind individuals before I make a final judgment, though. It does feel a lot like faux progressivism.
If your response to good-faith attempts at a reasonable discussion is to abuse alcohol, the issue here may be less to do with the discussion and more to do with your inability to cope with things you apparently disagree with.
And if you were just joking about abusing alcohol, you should think more about how many people struggle daily with alcoholism and it's not something to be joked about.
If your response to good-faith attempts at a reasonable discussion is to abuse alcohol, the issue here may be less to do with the discussion and more to do with your inability to cope with things you apparently disagree with.
And if you were just joking about abusing alcohol, you should think more about how many people struggle daily with alcoholism and it's not something to be joked about.
Should we replace the alternate definition of blind (unaware) with a different word then? I'm not sure how else you could convert "blind date" (first date doesn't mean the same thing) or "double-blind experiment" to not use the word.
They can do whatever they want regarding this stuff, I can fairly easily adapt. I will say that this makes it harder to find what I'm looking for. Or rather just puts more word obstacles in the way. Calling something a "blind playthrough" is a two word solution for someone that is playing something without knowledge. "First time playthrough" adds a word but still doesn't quite get encapsulate exactly what people are looking for. So now we need a new way to delineate a "first time playthrough" that you've been religiously following, or read about, or watched someone play for a while, or played a demo, or remember from your youth, or maybe you played the old version like demons souls VS. A "first time playthrough" that you know next to nothing about and are trying for the first time.
Not vision specifically, but it's using our understanding of the word in a context of disability: perception that we lack--it's something I'd never considered before, but honestly I see it now.
Yeah that's the thing, like I'm all for inclusive language but there's very little evidence that this isn't just cynical corporate co-opting of social progressivism. Which we absolutely SHOULD be highly critical of, imo
Perfect example of why this is a very strange move. As has been said to death, blind is a common word that means many things (not just disability).
I looked through the thread but couldn't find the answer. Is there a large group of blind people pushing for this change?