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Gilver

Banned
Nov 14, 2018
3,725
Costa Rica
She obviously did not have any bad intentions since she is just trying to look like a character she likes but she got what she deserved and her example will show people not familiar with the mostly American historical context of why this is wrong. The whole world is not constantly talking about or engaging in racism like in the US, sometimes people on here lack perceptive.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,404
Same here. In Spain this kind of costumes (with the painted face) were quite common during the carnival party in February (maybe they still are, I haven't attended to the party for a few years). The same way we have another public holiday on December where 3 disguised guys give presents to the child, one of them is black-skinned and as in many little towns or cities there's no volunteer to do the job, most of the times someone paints his face (the role is always a male, at least traditionally).

So I can understand if someone don't understand the problem with this, if I think about the costumes I'm used to see in carnival it's pretty obvios that the roots are racist and the way they portray dark-skinned people is offensive and caricaturesque, so I think it's nice to slowly make people think about it and correct it.

It should also be nice for some USA people to stop thinking that they are at the center of the world, and that other countries may not associate this to racism.

imagine children having christmas without one of the three kings in black face. their holiday would be absolutely ruined
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,524
Sorry, but I have a few black acquaintances in Moscow who date Russian girls. And they had as much problems as their Russian colleagues. They just don't blame it on racism as people get punched / stabbed / hit a lot in Russia no matter what nationality you are.
What people in the USA don't know is that there's a hhhhuuuuugeee nationalism towards middle-eastern people here – people from Kyrgizstan, Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan are treated like garbage in Russia unfortunately.

"
In an effort to gauge how many people within the African community have been subject to race- related violence, respondents were asked if they had ever been the victim of a racially-motivated attack. In total, a startling 58.5% responded that they have been physically attacked while living in Russia. There has been some improvement since 2002, when 66% said that they had been attacked. However, 41% of all respondents said that they have been attacked in Moscow within the last 12 months. In total, during the last 12 months, attacks against all respondents happened with the following frequency:
"
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/...rce_on_racial_violence_annual_report_2009.pdf
 

EliVilla

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
702
USA
If you stream on an international platform maybe you should make sure you're not going to do anything that might offend people. Not knowing can't be an excuse anymore.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,540
Plenty of non americans know and have learned that it is bad. It's not some super obscure thing and cosplayers should know about it since is a discussion in the community
And plenty of non americans don't know it's bad and not only have no conception that it's bad, but would not think to even look it up. I'm not from the US and I can guarantee that a minority of the people where I'm from either know about it or would think to check.
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,484
These niggas prolly have significant Nazi/White power movements in they countries but in here talking about i didn't know about black face, clown shit

Wait, what? As I said in a previous post in this topic, I knew about black face because recently it's a debate in The Netherlands. That's how people in my country are learning about this issue. I just thought it was about painting your face black in colonial contexts that was seen as racist. But after thinking about it a little more I understand how it can be grievous and insulting, even if not done with any harmful intent.

The recent years more and more people in my country are in favor of banning black face from our national holiday. But there is still a long way to go. I can imagine people in other countries having no clue about this at all as it's not a social issue in their countries. That's all.

I'm not dismissing it being racist, I'm not saying she shouldn't be banned, etc.
 

Rat King

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,021
Portugal
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissive commentary concerning blackface
I can tell you that blackface is not seen as racist here in Portugal and we have a pretty relevant black community. No one cares because we never had minstrel shows. And I guarantee you that I've seen black people with their faces painted white during Carnival and Halloween.

Good on Twitch though, they followed their community guidelines. Hope she learned something, I'm sure she wasn't aware.
 

Deleted member 5864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,725
So, what are you proposing?

I agree with you that she did something wrong. I think Twitch did the good thing. But you can't expect people who have not been confronted with this social issue to act like someone in the US would.

Fully agree that people who are hurt by this have the full right to be protected, to be supported. And I fully support banning people who do this from online platforms. But educating is also important.
What I'm proposing is that it's not on the hurt communities to educate you on why it's bad. You've been told, you can do your own research just like I did (I'm not american btw). I'm proposing that institutions at every level need to do more in protecting people but when the first reaction is "it's tradition" or "it's not offensive to ME, white person whom this doesn't affect" it becomes really difficult to achieve (not your quotes, but general sentiment). In the current political climate, which extends worldwide, it is even harder and people defensiveness over even acknowledging it is a problem is counterproductive.

I didn't come to this thread to call her or anyone a racist and I never actually did, I made my point on ignorance as a defense but as I told you over several posts, it's not about her hurt feelings, it's not about yours either. It's about all the people it hurts, it's about the history and the context. It's just, you know, you can't expect people historically harmed by this situation to take in all in stride and put the onus on them to educate others when it happens every other day in their lives. At some point it's too much for them. You keep quoting me wondering what I can do for you for some reason...
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
After her ban, Martsinkevich again posted the picture of herself in the cosplay on the Russian social media app VK. She added the caption, "Thank you for the enormous support. Thank you for not leaving me alone in such a situation. So, guys and girls, what do you think about Cosplay?"
She sure learned her lesson, huh
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
An absurd caricature of a black person by someone not black is universally understood as racially demeaning, even if the specifics of blackface as a thing is not. None of you have looked at someone in blackface and thought that it wasn't meant to be demeaning or mocking.

Just because it being wrong isn't a mainstream talking point in your country, doesn't make it any less obviously wrong.

Indian-face isn't a thing, yet I still know it's probably something I shouldn't do.

I'm also waiting for the inevitable someone to go "I'm from the UK and blackface is okay here."
 

Paltheos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,679
User Banned (1 Month): Excusing blackface; previous severe infraction
Neat cosplay.
I disagree with the reaction of many posters in this thread. It all looked to be in good faith.

Remember when people conceptualized Obama as a monkey in Russia back in like 2016

You know you're a slime defending open bigotry in your country if you gotta preface your comment with "risking a ban here"

Stand up for your bigotry and stop wasting my time

That seems pretty mean-spirited.

I know you're talking to someone else, but I'll say that as a general matter of course that I check myself when posting on resetera now. I have for the past year or so. Certain opinions need to be very carefully expressed whereas others - like one user name-calling another provided the name-caller hasn't taken anything resembling a position that is frowned upon on certain issues - may have much more latitude in how they're shared.
To be clear, this isn't a disparagement of your post (although my first, standalone line does make clear I don't like it), more a concern that if I were to respond in earnest that I may not be granted the same liberty, and that the person you were responding to may feel the same way as I do (even if you were angry, I thought you were asking a question for which I could supply an answer). For what good efforts at dissuading certain types of poor posting do, there is a very real danger to inconsistency that can quickly balloon out of control.
 

Artorias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,086
After her ban, Martsinkevich again posted the picture of herself in the cosplay on the Russian social media app VK. She added the caption, "Thank you for the enormous support. Thank you for not leaving me alone in such a situation. So, guys and girls, what do you think about Cosplay?

She sure learned her lesson, huh

This is disappointing, and I'm very reluctant to believe she learned anything from this whole ordeal.
 

JJ!

Member
Dec 18, 2017
240
Dude WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. Seriously man why would someone think this is ok. I'm glad twitch punished this bs appropriately
 

Tibarn

Member
Oct 31, 2017
13,369
Barcelona
imagine children having christmas without one of the three kings in black face. their holiday would be absolutely ruined
I'm sure that childen from our times don't give a fuck about Los Reyes Magos, but it has been this way for a lot time and never was associated to racism. It's easy to understant why it should change (in fact some towns changed it recently), but the idea that all of them are guilty of X or Y because of that is really silly.
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
And plenty of non americans don't know it's bad and not only have no conception that it's bad, but would not think to even look it up. I'm not from the US and I can guarantee that a minority of the people where I'm from either know about it or would think to check.
The problem is that lots of people go "but, but..." when they learn about it or get called out. If you do blackface and your first reaction is "blackface doesn't exist in my country" instead of apologizing then you are an idiot
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,484
What I'm proposing is that it's not on the hurt communities to educate you on why it's bad. You've been told, you can do your own research just like I did (I'm not american btw). I'm proposing that institutions at every level need to do more in protecting people but when the first reaction is "it's tradition" or "it's not offensive to ME, white person whom this doesn't affect" it becomes really difficult to achieve. In the current political climate, which extends worldwide, it is even harder and people defensiveness over even acknowledging it is a problem is counterproductive.

I didn't come to this thread to call her or anyone a racist and I never actually did, I made my point on ignorance as a defense but as I told you over several posts, it's not about her hurt feelings, it's not about yours either. It's about all the people it hurts, it's about the history and the context. It's just, you know, you can't expect people historically harmed by this situation to take in all in stride and put the onus on them to educate others when it happens every other day in their lives. At some point it's too much for them. You keep quoting me wondering what I can do for you for some reason...

Fully agree. Maybe in my defense of ignorance I've been a little too much one sided. I fully understand when people don't want to explain anymore, when people don't want to see someone else his or her cultural or social context. But I always try to get a dialogue going. But when people are hurt that many times, I can see why at some point you get tired of ignorant (and mostly stubborn) people.

Sorry for responding so many times.. haha.
 

Timurse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
35
Moscow, Russia
The whole world isn't on Era. It wasn't until I got on Reddit that I learned what blackface was, most people in the rest of the world legit don't know. You can still surprise some people today by explaining that the n word is offensive.
Precisely. In Russian there's still no other word for black people than негр (negr). It's totally official. Even in the police documents any black man would be called like that.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,272
Neat cosplay.
I disagree with the reaction of many posters in this thread. It all looked to be in good faith.



That seems pretty mean-spirited.

I know you're talking to someone else, but I'll say that as a general matter of course that I check myself when posting on resetera now. I have for the past year or so. Certain opinions need to be very carefully expressed whereas others - like one user name-calling another provided the name-caller hasn't taken anything resembling a position that is frowned upon on certain issues - may have much more latitude in how they're shared.
To be clear, this isn't a disparagement of your post (although my first, standalone line does make clear I don't like it), more a concern that if I were to respond in earnest that I may not be granted the same liberty, and that the person you were responding to may feel the same way as I do (even if you were angry, I thought you were asking a question for which I could supply an answer). For what good efforts at dissuading certain types of poor posting do, there is a very real danger to inconsistency that can quickly balloon out of control.

You can't say it's a neat cosplay after being explained why it's hurtful and demeaning.

And same goes for the cosplayer after being banned
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,540
The problem is that lots of people go "but, but..." when they learn about it or get called out. If you do blackface and your first reaction is "blackface doesn't exist in my country" instead of apologizing then you are an idiot
Who's apologizing? I seem to recall my very first post saying that I'm glad she got banned and hope she learns. I'm saying that people expecting everyone else to not only know every point of contention from other countries - large countries or not - but to somehow pick up on stuff to research at seemingly random, is a weird perspective to take.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,404
Neat cosplay.
I disagree with the reaction of many posters in this thread. It all looked to be in good faith.



That seems pretty mean-spirited.

I know you're talking to someone else, but I'll say that as a general matter of course that I check myself when posting on resetera now. I have for the past year or so. Certain opinions need to be very carefully expressed whereas others - like one user name-calling another provided the name-caller hasn't taken anything resembling a position that is frowned upon on certain issues - may have much more latitude in how they're shared.
To be clear, this isn't a disparagement of your post (although my first, standalone line does make clear I don't like it), more a concern that if I were to respond in earnest that I may not be granted the same liberty, and that the person you were responding to may feel the same way as I do (even if you were angry, I thought you were asking a question for which I could supply an answer). For what good efforts at dissuading certain types of poor posting do, there is a very real danger to inconsistency that can quickly balloon out of control.

what's the most neat part of the cosplay?
 

Myrrhodd

Member
Jan 15, 2018
76
Free publicity for her. I wouldn't have known about this streamer if it wasn't for this thread.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,716
Account made in 2017. 30-odd posts. Defending blackface. Hmm. I don't know about this one chief.

It's not hard to understand how you are on a platform that gives you global access, which comes with the responsibility to be aware of things outside of your country. Her apology seems sincere enough but I'm not lifting bans for people.
 
Last edited:

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
If you wanted to cosplay a character in 'good faith' you could've not like, painted your skin black.

I mean the other non PoC cosplayers deciding to do a black/dark skinned look got called out/berated for their shitty idea, I don't see why this oe should be any different nor do I think I should find her intent 'genuine'.

If you can afford a mediocre twitch stream on the internet you can afford the common sense to do a google search

Guys, I know it's so easy bringing a torch up but come on.
I know the concept of blackface. I wouldn't do that myself. I'm just trying to explain why people in other countries do it so openly and don't know the wrong of that. No need to put labels on ME for that. Jeez, that's why I hate posting anything here.

Nah once yoy're on the public platform like a twitch stream you should be well aware of what is/isn't acceptable and should be lambasted on it. Ignorance isn't the exception and being rminded that people are ignorant of it doesn't solve the issue
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,404
I'm sure that childen from our times don't give a fuck about Los Reyes Magos, but it has been this way for a lot time and never was associated to racism. It's easy to understant why it should change (in fact some towns changed it recently), but the idea that all of them are guilty of X or Y because of that is really silly.

it's been in debate for years so i doubt anyone defending zwarte piet today hasn't heard of the reasons why it should be changed. how exactly should we view them with that in mind?
 

Deleted member 5864

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,725
Fully agree. Maybe in my defense of ignorance I've been a little too much one sided. I fully understand when people don't want to explain anymore, when people don't want to see someone else his or her cultural of social context. But I always try to get a dialogue going. But when people are hurt that many times, I can see why at some point you get tired of ignorant (and mostly stubborn) people.

Sorry for responding so many times.. haha.
Hey, no problem. Seriously, I understand you are genuine and eager to learn and for other people to do so as well. I understand you recognize the harm and even see the dialogue in your local setting. I'm happy you are not dismissive either. I'm sorry too for being rude or blunt.

I do get a bit flared up. It's just difficult overall.
 

The_R3medy

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,837
Wisconsin
So like, how don't people get black face is bad? Like, if you want cosplay someone who's a different race than you, that's fine. Just don't paint your skin to look like em, ya know?
 

Timurse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
35
Moscow, Russia
"
In an effort to gauge how many people within the African community have been subject to race- related violence, respondents were asked if they had ever been the victim of a racially-motivated attack. In total, a startling 58.5% responded that they have been physically attacked while living in Russia. There has been some improvement since 2002, when 66% said that they had been attacked. However, 41% of all respondents said that they have been attacked in Moscow within the last 12 months. In total, during the last 12 months, attacks against all respondents happened with the following frequency:
"
http://medias.lemonde.fr/mmpub/edt/...rce_on_racial_violence_annual_report_2009.pdf
You clearly didn't understand that ANYONE got attacked in Russia. Even Russians.
 

FancyPants

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
707
The problem is that lots of people go "but, but..." when they learn about it or get called out. If you do blackface and your first reaction is "blackface doesn't exist in my country" instead of apologizing then you are an idiot

No one here is doing that, but they are still being chewed out for some reason. They're told to go educate themselves, and in the next breath berated for daring to ask a question about it. We all agree that this was bad and that Twitch is in the right. Some are just trying to ask what this means and why it's not being struck down more in their respective countries (with pictures and anecdotes). The brigading coming in and saying "I don't believe you" when they're trying to ask is completely ????? for me. Did they even read the posts, or just have a knee jerk reaction? There are enough people in this topic saying they didn't know (or didn't know until recently) that it should be enough to pause for two seconds, right?
 

Timurse

Member
Oct 28, 2017
35
Moscow, Russia
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive commentary, excusing blackface.
So like, how don't people get black face is bad? Like, if you want cosplay someone who's a different race than you, that's fine. Just don't paint your skin to look like em, ya know?
Just don't paint your skin in some exact colors you wanted to say? Cause if it's purple or green that's ok, yeah?
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,507
You can cosplay a character without matching their skin color, why is that so hard to understand? If you're doing blackface you're intentionally being offensive, there isn't an excuse for it.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
Educating yourself is stupid now?
Tbh if there's no context then there is no reason to research. Growing up in India we used the world Paki to describe people from Pakistan..but in the UK the word is a derogatory slur for people from the subcontinent. When I heard/read that it's considered offensive in UK (sometime in mid 2000s) I couldn't understand why it was, even after doing a quick internet search as the word meant something else to me my whole life. Until I was explained by some of my friends who knew more. Then I immigrated to the UK and finally realised why it was offensive when I got called one.

Not defending but also saying it is possible to miss certain things when not having the context. If she grew up in Russia/Lithuania (basically those countries that were born out of USSR) then it's very likely to miss a lot of western context, my ex is Russian and despite being in the UK for 10 years she misses a lot of things that you'd otherwise expect from people living in the west.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
ITT: Americans thinking they're the center of the universe

No, not the whole world knows what blackface is or why it's offensive. It's likely that the girl here legit had no idea. Doesn't make it right of course, but saying things like "just Google it!" is incredibly stupid.

I sure think we should go by what the majority of people in white racist nations think on the topic rather than the minorities that have to put up with this shit. Blackface has nothing to do with this and the idea that you can't see why this is offensive if you aren't familiar with blackface is fucking moronic.
 

Doukou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,524
You clearly didn't understand that ANYONE got attacked in Russia. Even Russians.
Show me a statistic that supports this, if it's roughly similar than you would be correct but also,
Have your coworkers/fellow students/peers made derogatory comments about your race?"
Yes 64.5% (135)
No 27.5% (57)
How would you describe inter-race relations in Russia today?
Very good
0.5% (1)
Good
7.5% (16)
Neutral
25% (52)
Tense
33% (69)
Very tense
28% (58)