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atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,827
ITT: Americans judging the rest of the world by standards forged in their own racist history. I think you can forgive someone the ignorance of your history and calmly educate rather than just call her a racist or a "fucking idiot". I wonder how much your average American knows about Lithuania? Because I can tell you I know fuck-all about it - a quick check of Wikipedia is telling me there's 264 African immigrants in Lithuania so I'm guessing their black population is pretty low and their ability to navigate racial sensitivities or knowledge of racial relations is probably pretty fucking slim.

It's not a coincidence that this stuff keeps happening in countries with low racial diversity. If we're going to hold them up to our own standards there's gonna need to be a little understanding of their history, too.

But there are plenty of people in here trying to calmly educate, and I don't doubt there were people trying to do the same directly to her. I don't expect everyone to have perfect knowledge of everything, but it is a huge pain in the ass and makes me feel like I shouldn't have bothered when people keep using their location as an excuse when they've been told why it's not ok. If it's posted publicly on our increasingly globalized internet, you're going to get viewpoints from different types of people. Mostly it's frustrating being told to calmly, politely and unemotionally as possible tiptoe over someone else's feelings and take them by the hand and guide them through a minefield, and the other person just doubles down, makes excuses, and tries to ignore the explanations.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
there are some spots but they are nowhere as widespread and known to be of any particular significance on a cultural level, especially when you consider, like you said, that europe is not a monolitic culture, so exposition to blackface would vary even if it was more relevant.

basically you don't grow up in europe will the acquired notion that blackface is offensive or racist,you just make the notion "i must reproduce this guy/gal appearance"

it would be funny albeit impossible experiment to extrapolate usa's history with blackface and see if modern day us citiziens would react to it the same way


There is the act of blackface, which is painting your face to ressemble a black person in a more or less offensive way, which has been a thing in a lot of European countries such as Belgium or Netherlands and there is the concept of blackface, that this act is inherently offensive and racist, which is indeed new in a lot of European countries.


dunno around you,but being calling a racist here is a pretty heavy offense, especially after what we did in ww2

so, yeah, for you is just semantics, for many people is not

There's a difference between "you are a racist" and "what you're doing is racist". People are telling you "painting your face in black either to mock black people or for entertainment reasons is racist and offensive" so I think it's not that bad of an idea to listen to people saying it's insulting to them.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
Yeah, but cosplaying and Blackface is not the same thing. Different intentions and different effect.
You're not automatically a racist just by drawing something on your face.

It is if you paint your face in black. Even if the intention isn't to mock, understand that people aren't okay with other people wearing their skin color as a costume.
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,588
Dublin, Ireland
europe has no such history that i'm aware of

Ehhhhhh.... Even just two seconds on wikipedia:

Examples of theatrical productions include the many productions of the play "Unschuld" (Innocence) by the German writer Dea Loher, although in this play about two black African immigrants, the use of black-face is not part of the stage directions or instructions.[175] The staging of the play "Unschuld" (Innocence) at the Deutsches Theater in Berlin was also subject of protest.[176] The activist group "Bühnenwatch" (stage watch) performed a stunt in one of the stagings: 42 activists, posing as spectators, left the audience without a word and later distributed leaflets to the audience. Fundamental of the criticism was that the use of black-face solidifies stereotypes regardless of any good intentions and supports racist structures. The critics were invited to a discussion with the director, actors, theatre manager and other artists of the Deutsches Theater. As a result of the discussion, Deutsches Theater changed the design of actor make-up. Ulrich Khuon, the theatre manager, later admitted to being surprised by the protest and is now in a process of reflection.

German productions of Herb Gardner's I'm Not Rappaport almost always cast the role of Midge Carter, the black character, famously portrayed in the U.S. by Ossie Davis, with a white actor in black makeup. The 2012 production of the play at the Berlin Schlosspark-Theater was the subject of protest.[178][179] The director, Thomas Schendel, in his response to critics, argued that the classical and common plays would not offer enough roles that would justify a repertoire position for a black actor in a German theatre company. The protest grew considerably and was followed by media reports. While advocates of the theatre indicated that in principle it should be possible for any actor to play any character and that the play itself has an anti-racist message, the critics noted that the letter unwillingly disclosed the general, unexpressed policy of German theatres, i.e., that white actors are accounted to be qualified for all roles, even black ones, while black actors are suitable only for black roles.[180] Other authors said that this problem in Germany generally exists for citizens with an immigrant background.[181][182]The debate also received foreign media attention. The Schlosspark-Theater announced plans to continue the performances, and the German publishing company of Rappaport stated it will continue to grant permits for such performances.

In 2015, two employees of the French polling company BVA made a short corporate video in which one of them wore blackface and spoke with a caricatured African accent.[171] The video has been online on the Youtube platform since 2015. This company has already been sentenced in 2014 for discrimination.
 

7threst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,297
Netherlands
I haven't been confronted with Blackface until I was like 24 and read stories about it on GAF, I'm glad to see that it is still unthinkable for people that other people from differetn countries haven't heard about it as it was back then.

My whole family has no idea what it is because when I learned about it I actually asked them if I just missed something. No I hadn't missed anything it just wasn't anything ever talked about here, I went and did some research on Blackfacing in Germany and learned there have been some "minor" incidents starting in like 2010 in the media and apparently lately it has actually been discussed more often but not in any way in mass media, so people knowing about it at all are I would guess in the low single digit percentage of the population here.

So yes I can see a lot of people having no idea about it, not knowing that they are doing anything wrong and meaning no harm.
This so much. It was the same with me and everyone surrounding me when I grew up.

It kinda angers me when I see posts in here claiming Europeans "forgetting their past" or anything like it. It was GAF bringing Blackface to my attention (a Videogaming forum ffs!), even though my history classes in school weren't shying away from the horribler role the Dutch played in the slkave trade for example. But exactly blackface culture is unheard of here. Which is why a lot of people here resist the anti-Zwarte Piet campaigns. They don't have any racist connotation with it whatsoever.

Personally I do understand the sistance against Zwarte Piet and know a lot more of blackface now, but I'm sure I'm a minority here.
 

Psyrgery

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,744

In Spain the term blackface is also completely alien to us.

It is not until a recent uproar in Twitter bashing a spanish tradition where a number people dress up as pages of the Three Wise Men that I learned of it and how offensive it is.

Many of spaniards, me included, were baffled as to why people were so upset about it.

It is not done in an insulting way nor it is mean to disrespect anyone, it's quite the opposite.

Now I know that it's disrespectful and it should be avoided, but I would not dare say that those people behind the Three Wise Men event are racist or mean ill towards black people.

It's just cultural differences that I am sure will change over time
 
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LordZagry

Member
Oct 29, 2017
32
France
Blackface only recently began to be seen as racist in France too, for years the majority of people (except some militant groups that has pushed the issue) didn't saw whats wrong.

Here you have the poster of the last "Nuit des Noirs" (litteraly "night of blacks"),that took place during the carnival, it was the first that has been massively cover by media under the prism of racism, but has the poster says, it was the 50th one :
FB_IMG_1512209321340.jpg

Then you had the Griezmann issue, and more people began to be aware of. But there's still a lot of ignorance, and I wouldn't be surprise to heard that in lithuania it's never discussed (not an excuse ofc, just some context for the "How can you not know ?!?", "google it" etc. post here).
 

Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
Yes because being called a racist is much worse than being a victim of racism and oppression.
and that has nothing to do with what we were talking about?

just because you are offended it doesn't give you cart blanche

i can do what i want because someone else started it is an excuse that stops being valid in kindergarden
 

Sir Hound

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,197
But there are plenty of people in here trying to calmly educate, and I don't doubt there were people trying to do the same directly to her.

Yeah I wasn't directing this at them, I do agree a lot of people have been fairly stoic about this. And, most importantly, she responded in kind with a genuine apology. Which, also more importantly than the fact she did blackface, is that this revealed a genuine (and understandable) ignorance of the -largely American- history around it. I think we'd be in a better position overall if people were better at judging people by their intentions as well as their actions.
 

nwb

Member
Mar 30, 2018
79
Yeah, but cosplaying and Blackface is not the same thing. Different intentions and different effect.
You're not automatically a racist just by drawing something on your face.

If you "draw something" on your face, people call you out for it and you don't care - you might be a bit racist. Honestly, this is not hard.
 

Daneel_O

Member
Oct 28, 2017
294
It's pretty simple:
A race isn't a costume. You dont "wear" a color.
Blackface started as a racist thing that was to grossly imitating in a racist way black people. While it still retained the same meaning today, it's easy to understand why a lot of people dont want to see their skin color treated as a mere costume.

I mean, if you were never exposed to the whole history and concept of blackface as you are describing it, and neither to PoC being offended by it, would you honestly have the same clear-cut perception regarding using a different skin color in a costume?

Let's be clear, I don't need to know what blackface is to understand that any gross imitation of PoC is insulting and racist, I think nobody can argue that in good faith, traditions or not.

But as an European (Italian) with no access to this information prior to visiting this forum, the idea of using a different skin color with no mocking intent would not be AUTOMATICALLY associated with something offensive, as for any other facial/body feature.

Now I understand how and why is offensive to many people and I would never do it, and it's undebatable that the streamer was wrong and extremely careless especially considering she was using an international platform, but some of you are really, really oblivious to context and unwilling to see other points of view and cultural diversity.

I don't think assuming everybody who was not exposed to this phenomenon is apologetic or straight away racist is the best way to tackle this, but that's just my take.
 

Lusankya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
601
Skin color is not a costume. You've been told it's offensive, so do you just not give a fuck?

People change their skin color for all kinds of reason and in all directions, this is not inherently bad or offensive. Cosplayers do all things to look like characters they like, explain how this is offensive? And no, just because Blackfacing exist, doesn't mean this is the same or also offensive.
 

atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,827
blackface in 2019.

also it looks fucking terrible.

that legit lifeline cosplayer looks nice tho


It really does look awful, patchy, and unnatural every time I see someone do this. It adds nothing to the costume and you'd still be recognizable without it, assuming you did a decent enough job with every other defining characteristic of the character so I don't get the accuracy defense force.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,298
I mean, if you were never exposed to the whole history and concept of blackface as you are describing it, and neither to PoC being offended by it, would you honestly have the same clear-cut perception regarding using a different skin color in a costume?

Let's be clear, I don't need to know what blackface is to understand that any gross imitation of PoC is insulting and racist, I think nobody can argue that in good faith, traditions or not.

But as an European (Italian) with no access to this information prior to visiting this forum, the idea of using a different skin color with no mocking intent would not be AUTOMATICALLY associated with something offensive, as for any other facial/body feature.

Now I understand how and why is offensive to many people and I would never do it, and it's undebatable that the streamer was wrong and extremely careless especially considering she was using an international platform, but some of you are really, really oblivious to context and unwilling to see other points of view and cultural diversity.

I don't think assuming everybody who was not exposed to this phenomenon is apologetic or straight away racist is the best way to tackle this, but that's just my take.


As I said, a lot of people are unaware in Europe of what blackface is and means. But it still remains a racist and offensive thing. Back in the 80s there were that kind of shit in France:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_W21vh1Ds0

There wasn't much people complaining about it. It doesn't mean there weren't people offended by it. And today it wouldn't be a thing. It's not because people didn't complained before that it was okay before.
 

Oligarchenemy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,332
People change their skin color for all kinds of reason and in all directions, this is not inherently bad or offensive. Cosplayers do all things to look like characters they like, explain how this is offensive? And no, just because Blackfacing exist, doesn't mean this is the same or also offensive.

But it is offensive, regardless of the intent.

Plus, why do you have to match the skin color in the first place?
 

shotopunx

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,588
Dublin, Ireland
Yup. Not much more to it, really.


Except that there is. The vast majority of Europe has as much to answer for in their own histories. Additionally, people need to educate themselves if they think there has never been controversy around blackface in Europe.

Finally, if a POC says something hurts them, don't spin your wheels trying to justify it, learn from what they've told, and change your behavior.
 

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
Do a good job with the costume, wig, accessories, etc and there will be 0 reason to paint your skin because you're already visibly similar in every other way.

It's really annoying this keeps happening, there's been a lot of continuing conversation in the cosplay community about blackfacing (and in some cases white cosplayers or social media personalities changing their eyes or skin to look "more Asian") and people are all too happy to talk over POC who are, for the most part, pretty vocal and clear about finding that unacceptable.

I don't think you speak for every POC. I absolutely disagree with you. Many people in the POC community also find it disingenuous with what you're saying. It's not about the race of the character. Some people have phenotypes that may just be perfect for such a character and its about integrity of the portrayal of said character. For example Chun Li and Cammy look absolutely race exclusive. But Maki and R. Mika look more Caucasian than Japanese.
 

danhz

Member
Apr 20, 2018
3,231
Read a post explaining it, had no idea this was a thing.

Just want to let clear that i dont think this person is innocence or nothing(even worse when she was pointed/banned out what she did and she gave no fuck), when u work in a worldwide public platform u have to be carful with every u do. Just that me, my person, rised on a place where I never learn this was racist(hell, we even have a tradition of doing it in christmast(three wise men) and its rebroadcasted in tv) , so it impressed me, thats it.

Next time i see it, ill know thats something u cant do.
 
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Innuendo84

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
523
User Banned (Permanent): Racism and previous severe infractions
How is this any different from Michael Jackson turning into a white dude?

Also I'm not an American and never heard of "blackface". You guys are way too sensitive.
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
Reading this thread you would think Europe had 0 part to play in colonialism.
It's not that we didn't have a part in colonialism, it's that we never had a comparable civil rights movement. And just as with Americas civil rights movement, people get bent super out of shape at the mere suggestion that waht they are doing might be problematic. It's laughable.
Also, this thread about to turn into a graveyard. "Never heard of it, I'm from the EU" yeah right, is this your first day on the internet as well?
How is this any different from Micheal Jackon turning into a white dude?

Also I'm not an American and never heard of "blackface". You guys are way too sensitive.
jesus
 

7threst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,297
Netherlands
How is this any different from Micheal Jackon turning into a white dude?

Also I'm not an American and never heard of "blackface". You guys are way too sensitive.

Look, I posted in this thread how I never heard about blackface up until a few years ago and now I understand it's something you don't do. It's offensive, it's racist. It's something we don't want, need or should be doing.

So how come you post something like this? Even this thread should be education enough for you to understand that the post you made is absolutely awful.
 

Lusankya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
601
If you "draw something" on your face, people call you out for it and you don't care - you might be a bit racist. Honestly, this is not hard.
No, that's not how it works. In some parts of the world people are offended by gay pairs kissing in public or by women showing some skin. You're not automatically on the side of people who feel offended about something.

But it is offensive, regardless of the intent.

Plus, why do you have to match the skin color in the first place?

You don't have to match the skin color, but maybe you want to? It could also be a different skin color for a different costume (doesn't even have to be a real human skin color).

I just don't see how this case is offensive. Maybe I am just kinda stupid here, but what are the bad consequences or effects or anything for people of color by her doing that? I don't see how she is reinforcing stereotypes, she is not making fun of anything, people seeing her are not more likely to be assholes to black people or feel their racist thoughts are confirmed.
 

Fahdi

Member
Jun 5, 2018
1,390
How is this any different from Michael Jackson turning into a white dude?

Also I'm not an American and never heard of "blackface". You guys are way too sensitive.

I don't think you understand:

What defenders of blackface gloss over is the fact that blackface cannot escape its history. It's a history of one group of people exercising power over another group. And blackface today is still about power. When white people don blackface, make excuses for it and dismiss black people's objections they are saying: we decide the dominant narrative and there's nothing you can do about it. They are saying we choose to ignore the fact that blackface influenced how white people saw black people in the nineteenth century, and in our more connected globalised world how it influences the way people everywhere see black people even today.

But it takes a wilful blindness to history not to mention a lack of empathy to ignore what the practice was created to convey, the environment in which it was created and everything it rehashes for black people every time someone dons blackface: slavery, colonialism, segregation, oppression, the devaluation of black existence, the institutionalisation of racism (even in the legal systems then and now), inequality and white privilege, and the desire to maintain white privilege while pretending we are now all equal.

However, in this thread, I understand that this "cosplayer" wasn't doing it on purpose or for malice. I just think people have a lack of understanding and need to educate themselves for it.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,200
I mean, if you were never exposed to the whole history and concept of blackface as you are describing it, and neither to PoC being offended by it, would you honestly have the same clear-cut perception regarding using a different skin color in a costume?

Let's be clear, I don't need to know what blackface is to understand that any gross imitation of PoC is insulting and racist, I think nobody can argue that in good faith, traditions or not.

But as an European (Italian) with no access to this information prior to visiting this forum, the idea of using a different skin color with no mocking intent would not be AUTOMATICALLY associated with something offensive, as for any other facial/body feature.

Now I understand how and why is offensive to many people and I would never do it, and it's undebatable that the streamer was wrong and extremely careless especially considering she was using an international platform, but some of you are really, really oblivious to context and unwilling to see other points of view and cultural diversity.

I don't think assuming everybody who was not exposed to this phenomenon is apologetic or straight away racist is the best way to tackle this, but that's just my take.
Let's be clear what's going on in this thread. Me and many others are fucking baffled someone couldn't out right figure out for themselves that painting their skin black was not okay. I and many others in this thread never needed to be told this was not okay or learn about that fact in school. So we call said person out for their actions and me in particular find it fucking astounding a cosplayer couldn't figure this out since cosplaying isn't new and this is not a new controversy in that world, especially with regards to non-US cosplaying communities.

That aside, at this point this thread has become a back and forth of individuals from other countries, mostly European from what I remember, coming in confused about the topic and seemingly more concerned with being judged for their perceived ignorance instead of taking the moment to understand and care/reflect. People still pop un to defend the woman in the OP who already exposed herself to not give a fuck. Every time someone chimes in that it's okay/she meant no harm, they are actively ignoring why blackface is hurtful despite pages of being told why.

It's upsetting to see again see people more concerned with being called or perceived as a racist than to reflect on the problematic behavior in the first place.
 

nwb

Member
Mar 30, 2018
79
Why do you quote only part of what I´m saying and leave out the part where I actually explain what I mean?

Because that's the part I took issue with. It doesn't really matter whether racist behavior is caused by ignorance or malice - it all feeds the same oppressive structures. Trying to categorize racist actions like that only leads to endless, circling arguments about whether or not someone is "truly" a racist - a discussion to the benefit of absolutely no one.
 

atomsk eater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,827
I don't think you speak for every POC. I absolutely disagree with you. Many people in the POC community also find it disingenuous with what you're saying. It's not about the race of the character. Some people have phenotypes that may just be perfect for such a character and its about integrity of the portrayal of said character. For example Chun Li and Cammy look absolutely race exclusive. But Maki and R. Mika look more Caucasian than Japanese.

Great, see my various posts where I say "most" or "many" and never "all". I don't speak for everyone, and I have seen some other black people who don't really care about the subject. There are, however, a lot of people who feel strongly about this, and I happen to be a black woman who hates seeing others rush to make excuses instead of listening to people attempting to educate. If another POC has a different opinion, they are welcome to it and can share it here. I don't need someone to try to tell me the community at large thinks I'm wrong because Chun Li looks Chinese.

Also you can dress as any character you want regardless of skin color or physical features. You might not look 100% like them, but that's fine! Cosplay is not just about pure accuracy but about creation, crafting, expression, and showing love for characters and media you like! This kind of seeking perfectionism leads to attitudes where black cosplayers dressing up as 99.9% of the cosplay pool get called "Nigger (character)" or "Black (character)" and dismissed or ignored, despite doing a bomb-ass job with their costume. It's also funny because most characters from Japanese media are not white, but this almost never happens to white cosplayers, even though they're technically inaccurate. Just a few weeks ago I saw a black girl dressed as Sailor Mars and was somehow able to recognize her character despite the fact that she was, y'know, black and not Japanese and hadn't painted her skin.
 

Deleted member 2321

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,555
Because that's the part I took issue with. It doesn't really matter whether racist behavior is caused by ignorance or malice - it all feeds the same oppressive structures. Trying to categorize racist actions like that only leads to endless, circling arguments about whether or not someone is "truly" a racist - a discussion to the benefit of absolutely no one.

No no. Context matters always.
 

Zok310

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,624
Umm, some people are just too stupid i swear.
What was she thinking.... she did not even have to paint her skin to play the part.