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Oct 28, 2017
925
Theres still something about peoples expectations though. I used to think a 7 is yes - Im gonna play that! An 80 meta score translates to an 8 for me, or 4 out of 5 stars. An 8 was always great, in some way.

Maybe its the whole meta score trend that has done a number on peoples perception, I dont know.
 

SlipperyMoose

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,231
It's on gamepass so why not. I'll download it and try it out for myself. Some of my favorite games are 7/8 out of 10 games.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,858
United States
There are PLENTY of 6's and 7's that I enjoyed immensely. From A, AA, and up to AAA games.

Fuck the idea that a 7 is bad in any way. I enjoy almost all the games I play that show that on Meta.
 

BBboy20

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,988
Hey, I've beaten the game like 3-4 times now and don't want to spoil (though the IGN Guides videos of the walkthroughs are mine so I spoiled it all there if you want), but do think the divisiveness comes down to two things (one narrative thing and one gameplay thing -- and arguably the narrative thing also ties into the gameplay aspect):

ONE

-The game communicates frustrations about a time loop and the trial-and-error nature of it rather than the infinite possibilities of a time loop. It's inherently frustrating, and I think it plays in that direction because games as a medium are better at that than the infinite possibilities aspect. To put it another way, it's better at making you think you're Bill Murray in Groundhog Day and video games are not as good as making something like Groundhog Day enjoyable because you can't narratively construct something that takes out all the thousands of deaths like you do in a cohesive/linear movie. Now I think games can be pretty good at creating something closer to the cohesiveness of a time loop in Groundhog Day when the setting is big enough -- Outer Wilds comes to mind -- but this is so constrained in its setting that playing off the frustration is the angle they take (and I think rightfully so). Dying over and over again and feeling some frustration is not inherently fun though -- especially when there is some level of repetition involve and you're only doing point-and-click things throughout, and so I can see why the game will be divisive just starting there. However, I do think that game mechanic plays into the narrative and makes you as the player feel the frustration the character on screen -- or Bill Murray or whoever -- goes through. It's just it has to get you there through the act of playing the game rather than watching Bill Murray become disenchanted through the skill of quality film making.

There are multiple Edge of Tomorrow montage loops that sort of get at that frustration in the way this game does:



This isn't the montage I'm thinking of -- it's the one where Emily Blunt's character keeps dying and Tom Cruise's character is slowly just being drained of hope that's better, but the point stands.

On top of that, the dialogue system is flexible, but it's not so flexible that you don't run into some moments of dissonance where the character sort of has to repeat itself or act "shocked" all over again when you ask them a question you asked another way already in the same loop -- I hope that makes sense. This is more forgivable in a bigger setting, but you see how the branching dialogue trees still don't always mesh here in this very focused situation. This is the more "inarguable" reason for why the narrative doesn't always flow right. This is just an inherent flaw of games as a storytelling medium in this sort of story trying to be told. The possibility tree overwhelms even the skilled designer at a certain point -- at least in small ways.

Lastly, I did not find the puzzles overly challenging, and when I did get stuck I liked it because, again, it felt like how I would feel in that situation. I'm trying to slightly tweak the situation, and no the game doesn't always allow me to say everything I want or do everything I want when I think I should, but I never felt like it was a poor design. The closest I got to that is when I knew something and felt my character should as well, but I just hadn't re-clicked on something to make him have the same epiphany I already had. But for me, once I fail at a loop doing X thing, I don't keep trying it, and I suspect some people will be or have been more hard headed about it.

TWO

Beyond the gameplay, the narrative itself is dark. It gets darker as you go, and it's just, well, not fun to experience, especially after you hit a certain point and sort of see where it's all going. It probably should have a trigger warning, but maybe they didn't want to spoil where it was going. The "twist" is insane, and it's going to be the biggest point of contention. I'm still not sure if it was the right choice or if it needed to be the way that it is etc. but yeah they go for it. There are fake endings and a couple "true" endings that I've found so far, but the twist is basically the true turning point and there's no way to look at the characters the same way after it.

Beyond that, I think story vs. plot does play into things here. The "story" is not amazing to me, but the plot is very good in terms of putting the pieces together in interesting ways that I appreciate as a way to make me feel various things because 12 Minutes doesn't ever really say how you need to play it to get to the credits (until you actually get to them) -- again, like Groundhog Day in that way. You can play some loops as more dark comedy, others as horror, others as truly just F'd up, some as purely happy etc. it's flexible there in fitting into different boxes for those twelve minutes.

However, I don't think this game maybe has a great "story" message for what it's trying to say with all the plot, but I think the plot is engaging. Now, it's easy to say without story than the plot doesn't matter, but I don't think that's always true for video games like it generally tends to be with books or movies.

This might actually be the best review of the game.
 

Jawbreaker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,411
New York City
I'm really intrigued by what I've read in the reviews, both positive and negative. It sounds like it could 100% be my kind of game, so I'll give it a go when it's live.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
Eh, this doesn't withstand any quantitative muster even in the most broad sense. Just a bunch of lazy catchphrases strung together as if they had meaning.

There's 0 games on Opencritic that are above 90 this year, and there's not much of any historical trend as far back as it goes. If anything there's a slight downward trend in reviews from the PS3 era.

While higher scores do feel like they are way more common than before, this is just entirely untrue lol. As others have pointed out, few games manage to get over 9 on MC/OC and that hasn't changed that much. So giving out 10s like candy only if you live one day a year and that day is Halloween

These replies genuine?

I didn't realise Metacritic did reviews now lol
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
These replies genuine?

I didn't realise Metacritic did reviews now lol

I don't know, is this one supposed to be genuine? You know what Metacritic and Opencritic do, right? If 10/10 reviews were being 'given out like candy,' the averages of reviews would not be constantly falling in the low 80s, high 70s, or even the mid to high 80s. So unless you are just talking about just a single outlet's more recent reviews, which you clearly were not, your entire post is, again, just not reflective of reality.

You got any other enlightened comments here or do you just want to take the L and move on?
 

Kensuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,397
Netherlands
If we go by metacritic, it is a fact scores for games in general are a lot more generous than scores movies, tv shows and music get. Metacritic even indicates this by still having a green background on scores in the 60s for that media, but a 60s score for a game is yellow. A lot of this stems from the fact that in other media the 5 stars scale is more common and 3/5 is nwhat is considered the 'average' score (that translates to 6). For games, I would say the 'average' score is probably around 75, which is way higher.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
If we go by metacritic, it is a fact scores for games in general are a lot more generous than scores movies, tv shows and music get. Metacritic even indicates this by still having a green background on scores in the 60s for that media, but a 60s score for a game is yellow. A lot of this stems from the fact that in other media the 5 stars scale is more common and 3/5 is nwhat is considered the 'average' score (that translates to 6). For games, I would say the 'average' score is probably around 75, which is way higher.

I think that's fair. Reviewers are more generous in general than they once were, I don't think most people would dispute that, especially for the big blockbuster. But the hyperbole that 'most people are giving perfect score like candy' is beyond silly, and especially ironic being said in a review thread for a game that is going to end like right at 80 or below in the high 70s lol
 

starfoxxxy

Gravity Is Hard
Banned
Mar 13, 2021
6,488
If we go by metacritic, it is a fact scores for games in general are a lot more generous than scores movies, tv shows and music get. Metacritic even indicates this by still having a green background on scores in the 60s for that media, but a 60s score for a game is yellow. A lot of this stems from the fact that in other media the 5 stars scale is more common and 3/5 is nwhat is considered the 'average' score (that translates to 6). For games, I would say the 'average' score is probably around 75, which is way higher.


Yeah, i see big movies regularly receive scores in the teens and 20's on rottentomatoes and MC. You will never see a big game score a 20-30 out of 100 no matter how bad it is.

A 50 is rock bottom for games
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
I don't get the impression that most reviewers think this is a so-so game. It sounds like it's an ambitious and densely layered experience that is challenging on a lot of levels, which causes some people to bounce off of it hard.
 

Deleted member 5129

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
Pretty good! I'm surprised a small indie game like this managed to get some of these big names.. could not have been cheap.

Excited to try it
 

Androidsleeps

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,587
I don't get the impression that most reviewers think this is a so-so game. It sounds like it's an ambitious and densely layered experience that is challenging on a lot of levels, which causes some people to bounce off of it hard.

This was my initial impression seeing all the early reviews, but it didn't score in the high 80s or 90s so it's disappointing! It's hardly surprising that a game like this wouldn't appeal to everyone anyway but it still not even really "divisive".
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Huh... this review score discourse is unexpected in this thread, kinda, I guess, maybe not really. While I do think some scores are higher.. I don't think they approach the score inflation of yesteryear, either. I think this stuff comes in waves. And I think it happens today because THERE ARE SO MANY FREAKING GAMES. And who do you think is going to review a game, if not the people who are at least somewhat interested in that game? Are you gonna give flight sim to someone who has shown no interest in sim games, when you have an ex-pilot on staff? Of course not! But that also means that numerical score at the end of the day may or may not be broadly representative, it has a ton of unconveyed context, and it might well be higher than your average gamer might score it.

I don't think any of that is actually a problem though. Whatever.

ANYWAY.

Hey, I've beaten the game like 3-4 times now and don't want to spoil (though the IGN Guides videos of the walkthroughs are mine so I spoiled it all there if you want), but do think the divisiveness comes down to two things (one narrative thing and one gameplay thing -- and arguably the narrative thing also ties into the gameplay aspect):

ONE

-The game communicates frustrations about a time loop and the trial-and-error nature of it rather than the infinite possibilities of a time loop. It's inherently frustrating, and I think it plays in that direction because games as a medium are better at that than the infinite possibilities aspect. To put it another way, it's better at making you think you're Bill Murray in Groundhog Day and video games are not as good as making something like Groundhog Day enjoyable because you can't narratively construct something that takes out all the thousands of deaths like you do in a cohesive/linear movie. Now I think games can be pretty good at creating something closer to the cohesiveness of a time loop in Groundhog Day when the setting is big enough -- Outer Wilds comes to mind -- but this is so constrained in its setting that playing off the frustration is the angle they take (and I think rightfully so). Dying over and over again and feeling some frustration is not inherently fun though -- especially when there is some level of repetition involve and you're only doing point-and-click things throughout, and so I can see why the game will be divisive just starting there. However, I do think that game mechanic plays into the narrative and makes you as the player feel the frustration the character on screen -- or Bill Murray or whoever -- goes through. It's just it has to get you there through the act of playing the game rather than watching Bill Murray become disenchanted through the skill of quality film making.

There are multiple Edge of Tomorrow montage loops that sort of get at that frustration in the way this game does:



This isn't the montage I'm thinking of -- it's the one where Emily Blunt's character keeps dying and Tom Cruise's character is slowly just being drained of hope that's better, but the point stands.

On top of that, the dialogue system is flexible, but it's not so flexible that you don't run into some moments of dissonance where the character sort of has to repeat itself or act "shocked" all over again when you ask them a question you asked another way already in the same loop -- I hope that makes sense. This is more forgivable in a bigger setting, but you see how the branching dialogue trees still don't always mesh here in this very focused situation. This is the more "inarguable" reason for why the narrative doesn't always flow right. This is just an inherent flaw of games as a storytelling medium in this sort of story trying to be told. The possibility tree overwhelms even the skilled designer at a certain point -- at least in small ways.

Lastly, I did not find the puzzles overly challenging, and when I did get stuck I liked it because, again, it felt like how I would feel in that situation. I'm trying to slightly tweak the situation, and no the game doesn't always allow me to say everything I want or do everything I want when I think I should, but I never felt like it was a poor design. The closest I got to that is when I knew something and felt my character should as well, but I just hadn't re-clicked on something to make him have the same epiphany I already had. But for me, once I fail at a loop doing X thing, I don't keep trying it, and I suspect some people will be or have been more hard headed about it.

TWO

Beyond the gameplay, the narrative itself is dark. It gets darker as you go, and it's just, well, not fun to experience, especially after you hit a certain point and sort of see where it's all going. It probably should have a trigger warning, but maybe they didn't want to spoil where it was going. The "twist" is insane, and it's going to be the biggest point of contention. I'm still not sure if it was the right choice or if it needed to be the way that it is etc. but yeah they go for it. There are fake endings and a couple "true" endings that I've found so far, but the twist is basically the true turning point and there's no way to look at the characters the same way after it.

Beyond that, I think story vs. plot does play into things here. The "story" is not amazing to me, but the plot is very good in terms of putting the pieces together in interesting ways that I appreciate as a way to make me feel various things because 12 Minutes doesn't ever really say how you need to play it to get to the credits (until you actually get to them) -- again, like Groundhog Day in that way. You can play some loops as more dark comedy, others as horror, others as truly just F'd up, some as purely happy etc. it's flexible there in fitting into different boxes for those twelve minutes.

However, I don't think this game maybe has a great "story" message for what it's trying to say with all the plot, but I think the plot is engaging. Now, it's easy to say without story than the plot doesn't matter, but I don't think that's always true for video games like it generally tends to be with books or movies.

Really appreciate your thoughts on this and it helps put it into context. It's a game that achieves many of its own lofty goals, except where it is unavoidably stymied by its sheer ambition - especially within its own self-imposed ironclad restraints. And yet, it is for various reasons Not Fun - but perhaps in a good way. Interesting read and I'll go into this game with a bit more context on what mindspace I should approach this game with. Appreciate it!
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
I don't know, is this one supposed to be genuine? You know what Metacritic and Opencritic do, right? If 10/10 reviews were being 'given out like candy,' the averages of reviews would not be constantly falling in the low 80s, high 70s, or even the mid to high 80s. So unless you are just talking about just a single outlet's more recent reviews, which you clearly were not, your entire post is, again, just not reflective of reality.
games getting a metascore in the 80s does not negate that there a lot of publications/reviewers that hand out 10s for above average games instead of truly special, generation defining games.
that's quite off topic for this thread tho, perhaps a better discussion for another thread.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
games getting a metascore in the 80s does not negate that there a lot of publications/reviewers that hand out 10s for above average games instead of truly special, generation defining games.
that's quite off topic for this thread tho, perhaps a better discussion for another thread.

Yes, but the point me and the other poster were making was that if the "majority" of publications were giving out 10s "like candy," the average of something like MC/OC scores would be in the 90s all the time or at least the high 80s. That's what was being replied to. If you want to rewrite that argument to reviews simply being softer and more 10s being given than are 'deserved,' I mean, sure. I won't disagree. But to say that the majority gives out 10s like they're nothing anymore is just…not reality lol, and ironic in a thread about a game that has very few (if any) perfect score.

I'm not sure what else there is to say about that. Maybe the original post meant that and was just using hyperbole, but I somehow doubt it based on that response and bail afterward.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,165
I'm now curious about whatever this thing at the end is supposed to be. Funny enough IGN nuked all their playthrough videos because spoiling a puzzle game before it's released is in bad taste. lol
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
I'm now curious about whatever this thing at the end is supposed to be. Funny enough IGN nuked all their playthrough videos because spoiling a puzzle game before it's released is in bad taste. lol

You sure? They still show up when I search for them on YouTube. Also, the game is out as of yesterday

Edit: Oh wait, you're right. The only video is the first one. I just assumed they were all still up but that is the only one now. Well, damn. Hope they put them back up soon
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
What's up with games nowadays *not* having Content Warnings? It gets so fucking annoying. I was super excited about this game but I'm just tired of devs completely ignoring putting a warning on their product. Big pass.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,495
You sure? They still show up when I search for them on YouTube. Also, the game is out as of yesterday

Edit: Oh wait, you're right. The only video is the first one. I just assumed they were all still up but that is the only one now. Well, damn. Hope they put them back up soon

I know Nextlander's preview thing was also taken down - to be very clear I'm paraphrasing, but from what was said in their Discord it sounded like the dev regretted not setting a stricter embargo on video and asked if more spoiler-y stuff could be held back till the game was out tomorrow (well, today now, it's 4 AM, but tomorrow at the time).
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
I know Nextlander's preview thing was also taken down - to be very clear I'm paraphrasing, but from what was said in their Discord it sounded like the dev regretted not setting a stricter embargo on video and asked if more spoiler-y stuff could be held back till the game was out tomorrow (well, today now, it's 4 AM, but tomorrow at the time).

Oh yeah, I guess I was wrong about the release date too. I work overnight third shift so today, tomorrow and yesterday are all the same day to me sometimes.
 
Jan 6, 2019
452
I saw the final ign video while it was up. The ending of this game is
so, sooooooo bad. Laughably terrible. And any reviewer that mentioned Chinatown is an asshole, because that's a mega spoiler. I guess it's the plot twist I'm calling terrible? Just.....what's actually going on is just silly, crazy and gross.
 

Acheteedo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
340
User Warned: Platform Warring
Gah, par for the course decent-but-not-exceptional exclusive for Xbox. They could really stand to start getting some critical hits. Surely they simply have too many studios for this pattern to continue (outside of Forza).
 

SuikerBrood

Member
Jan 21, 2018
15,487
What's up with games nowadays *not* having Content Warnings? It gets so fucking annoying. I was super excited about this game but I'm just tired of devs completely ignoring putting a warning on their product. Big pass.

Game of Thrones only added one after like 3 seasons, right? It seems we have a long way to go regarding those kind of things. Besides the M rating ofc.

Gah, par for the course decent-but-not-exceptional exclusive for Xbox. They could really stand to start getting some critical hits. Surely they simply have too many studios for this pattern to continue (outside of Forza).

Why turn this into a platform thing?
 

Acheteedo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
340
Why turn this into a platform thing?

I'm addressing reviews of Xbox's exclusives and this is a topic about the reviews of the latest Xbox exclusive. Gamepass makes the ongoing "decent" games thing not the end of the world, since you can just try them all for 'nothing', but it's another one that doesn't quite hit the heights I'm seeking.
 
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Aimi

self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 16, 2021
579
Hm. This sounds like it will be a rollercoaster ride of emotions, which is good I love experiences that destroy you emotionally for days to come. Plus I am an absolute sucker for time loops.
 

Sikamikanico

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
I'm addressing reviews of Xbox's exclusives and this is a topic about the reviews of the latest Xbox exclusive. Gamepass makes the ongoing "decent" games thing not the end of the world, since you can just try then all for 'nothing', but it's another one that doesn't quite hit the heights I'm seeking.

But it might hit the heights for you. Why base your enjoyment or interest entirely on whether a game is critically acclaimed.

I think whether you'd enjoy 12 Minutes depends entirely on how you think - or rather, how your brain works.

I really enjoyed it, and from my perspective, it's another unique and interesting title for Xbox.
 

oriic

Prophet of Truth - Press
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
2,179
Hungary
PC Gamer (53/100):

"A clever time loop setup devolves into frustrating repetition."

"Repetition." A time loop game... Shocking. :D
 

StraySheep

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,276
What's up with games nowadays *not* having Content Warnings? It gets so fucking annoying. I was super excited about this game but I'm just tired of devs completely ignoring putting a warning on their product. Big pass.

When did they ever? Content warnings are a super new thing. Before with media it was what the ratings board says and perhaps a "viewer discretion is advised" at the front.

I'm still not sure about them. If you're going to have them it should be an option in the menu.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,614
PC Gamer (53/100):

"A clever time loop setup devolves into frustrating repetition."

"Repetition." A time loop game... Shocking. :D
Brad Shoemaker explains this better on the Nextlander podcast, the problem is that for you to progress you see the same loop many times, without feedback on how to continue. And you can't skip much, even if you know the solution, so you end up seeing the very same things many many times.
 

oriic

Prophet of Truth - Press
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
2,179
Hungary
Brad Shoemaker explains this better on the Nextlander podcast, the problem is that for you to progress you see the same loop many times, without feedback on how to continue. And you can't skip much, even if you know the solution, so you end up seeing the very same things many many times.
Interesting. I'm curious about the game, only a few hours to go...
 

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
I saw the final ign video while it was up. The ending of this game is
so, sooooooo bad. Laughably terrible. And any reviewer that mentioned Chinatown is an asshole, because that's a mega spoiler. I guess it's the plot twist I'm calling terrible? Just.....what's actually going on is just silly, crazy and gross.

Go on then, I'll bite... what's the ending? I'm a fan of
Chinatown
so now my curiosity has to be satiated.
 

Irrotational

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,137
This sounds like it might have some of those vibes of monkey island games where you just end up trying "use X on Y" for every combination of X and Y to see if something works.
 

Zaubrer

Member
Oct 16, 2018
1,394
That's a bummer for the devs I guess.

I'll play it any way. Really looking forward to it.
 

Acheteedo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
340
But it might hit the heights for you. Why base your enjoyment or interest entirely on whether a game is critically acclaimed.

I think whether you'd enjoy 12 Minutes depends entirely on how you think - or rather, how your brain works.

I really enjoyed it, and from my perspective, it's another unique and interesting title for Xbox.

Indeed, that's why Gamepass makes it less bad, as I say. But for myself, I'm a very-short-on-time gamer parent who can't spend time trying out anything less than sure hits. 'Twould be a wonderful thing to try out all the potentially interesting games, and something I look forward to doing one day when my lifestyle allows it. But for now, I can only allow myself to try critical darlings.