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TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
You're still fixating solely on how you can justify it in TLOU, and trying to fit things into a neat little box of "okay" or "not okay". The quality of the writing quite frankly often has shit all to do with how it might factor in and reinforce what are society wide trends and perceptions.

You can find ways to justify literally anything. That's what makes this discussion so damn frustrating, because it isn't about how it exists within the context of only that work, but the greater medium as a whole.

TLOU can't solve the problem, because the problem is the greater issue with LGBT representation. The way that people stop being so irritated by the whole trope of killing off gay characters for the drama is for gay representation to no longer have the issues it does. Then no one cares anymore what you're doing, because you aren't reinforcing a shitty cultural trend.
RIght, and that makes a lot of sense to me. But the people I'm addressing seem to be specifically addressing it from the specific critique of TLOU as opposed to the systemic one.

Someone addressed this earlier but it seems like a large part of the issue is that LGBT people largely aren't portrayed in a lot of more positive or "family friendly" media. They are only allowed to exist in gritty or "mature" fictional spaces that often wander into the macabre.

It says something pretty bad about society that LGBT people are portrayed as something to be censored or are associated with being "obscene".

But I don't think the solution is removing the high stakes for LGBT people in post apocalyptic genre fiction, but that we need more LGBT portrayals in ALL KINDS media that doesn't involve tragic backgrounds.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,199
It's the same level of discourse found in a Cinema Sins video, "lets try to shove this thing we dont fully understand the context for into this wildly reductive bucket and call it criticism"
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
RIght, and that makes a lot of sense to me. But the people I'm addressing seem to be specifically addressing it from the specific critique of TLOU as opposed to the systemic one.

Someone addressed this earlier but it seems like a large part of the issue is that LGBT people largely aren't portrayed in a lot of more positive or "family friendly" media. They are only allowed to exist in gritty or "mature" fictional spaces that often wander into the macabre.

It says something pretty bad about society that LGBT people are portrayed as something to be censored or are associated with being "obscene".

But I don't think the solution is removing the high stakes for LGBT people in post apocalyptic genre fiction, but that we need more LGBT portrayals in ALL KINDS media that doesn't involve tragic backgrounds.
Again, nobody, nobody, is trying to remove anything.

Not liking something is not the same thing as trying to get rid of it.
 

Hikari_Ryu

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2017
211
The only major death in The Last of Us of a gay character was Riley, and that wasn't even in the base game. It's understandable that people are tired of gay people not getting happy endings, but the trope doesn't exist to mean that every case of a death of a gay person is "bury your gays".

Riley's death was written well before either of their sexualities was explored, it's part of the dramatic irony of Left Behind, unless you're going to argue that Left Behind wasn't well written, since you're insinuating that TLoU II probably won't be a well written game?

Death is a big motivation for people, and for Ellie it's one of her main character components. Riley, Tess, Sam, Henry, all people who died one way or another because of her simply being where she was on the journey. There are very egregious examples of bury your gays in media, Left Behind is not one of them and I wouldn't even say it's an example of bury your gays since the story doesn't focus on Riley's death, but it focuses on their relationship and it doesn't even show what happens to Riley. It wasn't using her death as a cheap shock moment, it was creating the full contextualization for Ellie's initial motivation that kept her going and kept haunting her after Joel pulled the plug on The Fireflies.

As for the trope that gays can't be happy? Ellie is a main character who is gay, even if she wasn't fully "happy" at the end of TLoU, she did find some type of peace through the lie that Joel offered ( at least my read on the situation). We see her five years later grown up, being relatively normal and so on. I'm not counting on Ellie getting a happy ending, simply because the path she is taking is a classic revenge story. And that's fine, having something be as classic as a basic revenge plot doesn't mean it's "unoriginal", plenty of movies, books, media in general recycles the same basic plots. Almost everything we write about has been covered by the Greeks in their stage plays, you can boil anything down into it's core dynamics and find that it's been hashed out before.

And this kinda goes into the main issue in this topic, is that Ellie is gay. That's not an issue obviously, but the issue is because she is gay and the logical outcome of that is her love interests will be... well, gay. It's why Left Behind is getting (wrongfully) pulled into this, because they wrote Ellie as gay in a tragedy. But just writing a gay character and having them in a tragedy doesn't complete the description or intention of the trope (as you said).

It's almost like people have flipped the odometer, to where the "non-problematic" way to have written Left Behind was have it be a close friend and not a gay love interest be the one to die... the same exact excuse people used to pretend Ellie wasn't super fucking gay or that "it was just a friendly kiss between friends!".

The trope is a trope because in media, gay characters who were relegated to side stories/B plots get whacked for the sake of shock value or it being their only defining characteristic. This is not what happens in Left Behind, I wouldn't even say it's what happens to Bill because his characterization is way more than his sexuality and his partner dying.

Vito from The Sopranos is a prime example of what the trope is. A character who was outed as gay and who is killed by his crew for being gay. Denise in Walking Dead getting offed to where the antagonist mocks the main character, saying "I was aiming for you actually", laughing at that missed shot while one of the only lesbian characters in the show got killed because he couldn't properly aim a crossbow. Steve Cortez from ME3, a character who's only actually characterization is that fact that he is gay and his husband died who basically spends the entire game in grief about that one singular event.

None of what happens in The Last of Us or Left Behind is close to the levels of what the trope represents in media. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed in terms of the overall media bubble of how gays are written and treated in stories, but people are slapping on this trope like it's a perfect dress that fits everything it touches, when in reality they are ignoring the actual important stuff that defines the trope because of one basic definition fits the criteria in TLoU/Left Behind, dead gay people in stories.

The conversation has gotten pretty much out of hand and you're right in the fact it probably wasn't going to be a good discussion in the first place due to how the thread was created. When folks are writing about how Sarah dying is "problematic" because she's a daughter who dies at the start of the apocalypse (ignoring that Joel literally drives by a family with a kid five minutes into the game with the obvious implication they all die very fast and probably very brutally) tells me that people who are trying to argue some of these points aren't doing so in good faith.

Ellie is a fairly complex character, her sexuality is a part of that and it's important to not gloss over it. Now, I'm biased because I'm a sucker for tragedies and characters having horrific falls from grace, so Ellie turning into a monster and losing any semblance of humanity sounds like an amazing story to tell because of the parallels to Joel when he lost Sarah. The question then seems to be, if you have a gay lead, should you force yourself to restrict character motivations, inciting incidents or just stories because of being aware of tropes that have been harmful in the past? The answer is obviously no, but being informed about the tropes (which I think we should all assume Neil and Haley Gross (they are co-writing the game) fully understand the tropes they are potentially encountering) is important in terms of making sure you don't just fall into the harmful pitfalls that the tropes can easily fall into. Based on the history of Naughty Dog in general, it should be pretty safe to assume that the game is going to be well written to where they acknowledge and understand tropes in media during their writing process.

I'm sorry, you can write 10 more paragraph about how Naughty Dog know better than rely on harmful tropes and why the structure of TLOU makes it so that Bury your gays doesn't apply to it, but it doesn't really make it so.

In the LTOU part 1, there are only 3 character who are black and are important to the story, the 2 brothers you meet before getting to Joel's brother and Marlene. All three character are dead by the end of the game. There are 2 LBGTQ couples in the game, both of them end with 1 of the characters in that relationship dead. They have Bill be gay, then you end his section of the game with him finding his old partner hung and if that wasn't enough, he left a pretty harsh suicide note for Bill. The only important characters that survive all are white (Joel, Tommy, Ellie). Joel's ending is him living with his brother, his wife and having a new daughter. Ellie's ending is being lied to her face by the person she trust the most about what was the most important thing to her in the whole game.

The only important character that is in a relationship at the end of the game is Tommy, who's in a straight relationship with his wife. If there's a harmful trope about gay couples suffering in media and you're already killing the love interest of one of your main characters, then why have Bill's partner die? Or why don't you have Tommy be gay and married, so at least one gay couple can be spared. You can't go "Everyone suffers in TLOU" then have all the important non white or non straight have bad endings and only Joel and Tommy get a happy ending.

Another point, Naughty Dog only wrote gay characters in their post apocalyptic franchise. In Uncharted, all the important main characters are white and straight. They could have easily had some LBGTQ representation in an universe where not everyone one meets an horrible end, but there's not one to be seen. Hell, in Uncharted 4 you have Nate's brother lie to him and puts Nate's life in danger because of it, get's rewarded with a happy ending. Nadine and her mercenaries were not hurting anybody until the drakes came, guns blazing, she ends up loosing her company due to a mutiny. Not to mention that they had only 1 black character in the whole game and they used a white voice actress.

I said this in my last post, I like Naughty Dog, I think they make great and fun games, but some of their stuff is problematic. Going "well, actually, this time this trope is not really in use because..." is a shitty way to shut down conversation. There is not a quota of how many white straight character you have to kill before you can go a use harmful tropes on minorities. ND may be better with representation, objectification and other important stuff than a lot of other developer, but that doesn't mean than people can criticize their games.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I'm sorry, you can write 10 more paragraph about how Naughty Dog know better than rely on harmful tropes and why the structure of TLOU makes it so that Bury your gays doesn't apply to it, but it doesn't really make it so.

In the LTOU part 1, there are only 3 character who are black and are important to the story, the 2 brothers you meet before getting to Joel's brother and Marlene. All three character are dead by the end of the game. There are 2 LBGTQ couples in the game, both of them end with 1 of the characters in that relationship dead. They have Bill be gay, then you end his section of the game with him finding his old partner hung and if that wasn't enough, he left a pretty harsh suicide note for Bill. The only important characters that survive all are white (Joel, Tommy, Ellie). Joel's ending is him living with his brother, his wife and having a new daughter. Ellie's ending is being lied to her face by the person she trust the most about what was the most important thing to her in the whole game.

The only important character that is in a relationship at the end of the game is Tommy, who's in a straight relationship with his wife. If there's a harmful trope about gay couples suffering in media and you're already killing the love interest of one of your main characters, then why have Bill's partner die? Or why don't you have Tommy be gay and married, so at least one gay couple can be spared. You can't go "Everyone suffers in TLOU" then have all the important non white or non straight have bad endings and only Joel and Tommy get a happy ending.

Another point, Naughty Dog only wrote gay characters in their post apocalyptic franchise. In Uncharted, all the important main characters are white and straight. They could have easily had some LBGTQ representation in an universe where not everyone one meets an horrible end, but there's not one to be seen. Hell, in Uncharted 4 you have Nate's brother lie to him and puts Nate's life in danger because of it, get's rewarded with a happy ending. Nadine and her mercenaries were not hurting anybody until the drakes came, guns blazing, she ends up loosing her company due to a mutiny. Not to mention that they had only 1 black character in the whole game and they used a white voice actress.

I said this in my last post, I like Naughty Dog, I think they make great and fun games, but some of their stuff is problematic. Going "well, actually, this time this trope is not really in use because..." is a shitty way to shut down conversation. There is not a quota of how many white straight character you have to kill before you can go a use harmful tropes on minorities. ND may be better with representation, objectification and other important stuff than a lot of other developer, but that doesn't mean than people can criticize their games.

Well put.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Again, nobody, nobody, is trying to remove anything.

Not liking something is not the same thing as trying to get rid of it.
Ok don't get fixated on the "removal" part. When I say removal, I literally just mean "people who are upset with the game that are not cool with the possibility of Dina dying from an emotional perspective".

There are literally people saying that they are not cool with it or "not okay" with it. I don't think there is some conspiracy to get the game cancelled or anything like that though.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Ok don't get fixated on the "removal" part. When I say removal, I literally just mean "people who are upset with the game that are not cool with the possibility of Dina dying from an emotional perspective".

There are literally people saying that they are not cool with it or "not okay" with it. I don't think there is some conspiracy to get the game cancelled or anything like that though.
So when you say you don't think "removal is the solution", what do you mean if you're not talking about, well, removal?

Do you mean that being upset isn't the solution? Because people don't get upset in an attempt to try and change things. They don't want to be upset in the first place.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
So when you say you don't think "removal is the solution", what do you mean if you're not talking about, well, removal?

Do you mean that being upset isn't the solution? Because people don't get upset in an attempt to try and change things. They don't want to be upset in the first place.
I'm saying that I think people wouldn't be SO upset if there was a wider array of LGBT characters in a variety of genres that aren't based around tragedy.

And you say no one wants the removal of a gay person's death subplot, but there are literally people all over this thread that are saying they will be angry with Naughty Dog if that's the case.

I'm saying maybe The Last of Us isn't the problem, but the fact that LGBT people are relegated mostly to genres focused on tragedy is the problem. That LGBT people are cordoned off because they are perceived as "obscene".

In other words genre fiction is going to be what it's going to be, but there is no reason that LGBT people should be confined to it.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
I'm sorry, you can write 10 more paragraph about how Naughty Dog know better than rely on harmful tropes and why the structure of TLOU makes it so that Bury your gays doesn't apply to it, but it doesn't really make it so.

In the LTOU part 1, there are only 3 character who are black and are important to the story, the 2 brothers you meet before getting to Joel's brother and Marlene. All three character are dead by the end of the game. There are 2 LBGTQ couples in the game, both of them end with 1 of the characters in that relationship dead. They have Bill be gay, then you end his section of the game with him finding his old partner hung and if that wasn't enough, he left a pretty harsh suicide note for Bill. The only important characters that survive all are white (Joel, Tommy, Ellie). Joel's ending is him living with his brother, his wife and having a new daughter. Ellie's ending is being lied to her face by the person she trust the most about what was the most important thing to her in the whole game.

The only important character that is in a relationship at the end of the game is Tommy, who's in a straight relationship with his wife. If there's a harmful trope about gay couples suffering in media and you're already killing the love interest of one of your main characters, then why have Bill's partner die? Or why don't you have Tommy be gay and married, so at least one gay couple can be spared. You can't go "Everyone suffers in TLOU" then have all the important non white or non straight have bad endings and only Joel and Tommy get a happy ending.

Another point, Naughty Dog only wrote gay characters in their post apocalyptic franchise. In Uncharted, all the important main characters are white and straight. They could have easily had some LBGTQ representation in an universe where not everyone one meets an horrible end, but there's not one to be seen. Hell, in Uncharted 4 you have Nate's brother lie to him and puts Nate's life in danger because of it, get's rewarded with a happy ending. Nadine and her mercenaries were not hurting anybody until the drakes came, guns blazing, she ends up loosing her company due to a mutiny. Not to mention that they had only 1 black character in the whole game and they used a white voice actress.

I said this in my last post, I like Naughty Dog, I think they make great and fun games, but some of their stuff is problematic. Going "well, actually, this time this trope is not really in use because..." is a shitty way to shut down conversation. There is not a quota of how many white straight character you have to kill before you can go a use harmful tropes on minorities. ND may be better with representation, objectification and other important stuff than a lot of other developer, but that doesn't mean than people can criticize their games.

First off, why are you talking about the race of characters regarding the bury your gays trope? I literally wrote in a previous post that Tommy is the only character who is the exception to the rule because his community is supposed to be a symbol that life goes on and you can actually live in some type of non-shit hole authoritarian community even after the end of the world.

Second, comparing Uncharted 4, a rompy action movie universe with Nate's brother getting off free to The Last of Us's world is beyond disingenuous. I'm not even going to get into the discussion regarding Nadine, that's just borderline thread derailment, this thread has nothing to do with Uncharted.

I don't even know what you said in your last post, nor have I ever said people can't criticize their games or representation in them. Lozange made a lot of good points, and even if I disagree with the main thesis regarding TLoU being some egregious offender regarding the bury your gays trope that people are trying to make it out to be.

If there's a harmful trope about gay couples suffering in media and you're already killing the love interest of one of your main characters, then why have Bill's partner die?

Not sure how many times I have to write this, but Ellie's sexuality wasn't written till after the game came out. If you want to apply the trope to Bill, go ahead, I don't think it fits the parameters and examples I gave of when the trope is very clear and egregious, but I can see the arguments and points to why it would fit.

I've already mentioned or commented on basically everything else regarding your posts via other comments in the thread regarding TLoU, so I would rather not talk in circles and repeat the same points over and over.

If you think anything I said amounts to trying to shut down a conversation, then I must have been really wasting my time writing out giant posts talking about the use of the trope in media and how it pertains to TLoU, really good way to shut down a conversation in a thread I specifically wanted to talk in.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I'm saying that I think people wouldn't be SO upset if there was a wider array of LGBT characters in a variety of genres that aren't based around tragedy.

And you say no one wants the removal of a gay person's death subplot, but there are literally people all over this thread that are saying they will be angry with Naughty Dog if that's the case.

I'm saying maybe The Last of Us isn't the problem, but the fact that LGBT people are relegated mostly to genres focused on tragedy is the problem. That LGBT people are cordoned off because they are perceived as "obscene".

In other words genre fiction is going to be what it's going to be, but there is no reason that LGBT people should be confined to it.

I feel that way as well. If we had enough fiction to point to where queer characters/romances didn't die horribly, then we'd be less judgmental of the ones that do.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I'm saying that I think people wouldn't be SO upset if there was a wider array of LGBT characters in a variety of genres that aren't based around tragedy.

And you say no one wants the removal of a gay person's death subplot, but there are literally people all over this thread that are saying they will be angry with Naughty Dog if that's the case.

I'm saying maybe The Last of Us isn't the problem, but the fact that LGBT people are relegated mostly to genres focused on tragedy is the problem. That LGBT people are cordoned off because they are perceived as "obscene".

In other words genre fiction is going to be what it's going to be, but there is no reason that LGBT people should be confined to it.

I mean you're right that the broader is problem is the frequency that the "Bury Your Gays" trope is used, but that broader problem is made up of a bunch of studios and authors using that trope in their individual works. I will absolutely admit that not every use of the trope is malicious or that they are all equally bad, but every example just continues to reinforce the cliche.

You say "Genre fiction is going to be what it's going to be" but that is just accepting and condoning lazy and sometimes homophobic cliches. Genres and storytelling evolve, and LGBTQ+ readers/viewers/players have a right to challenge tropes like this. I don't mean to sound accusatory, you don't seem to be preaching that nothing should change, but it does seem like you don't want people to vocalize their displeasure with this trope potentially being used in TLoU2.

There are very few cannon LGBTQ+ characters in games, and to see one introduced just to be potentially fridged is really disappointing. I don't think it means the game is going to be badly written, but it does kill a little bit of my enthusiasm. I hope my post hasn't seemed overly rude or confrontational.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I mean you're right that the broader is problem is the frequency that the "Bury Your Gays" trope is used, but that broader problem is made up of a bunch of studios and authors using that trope in their individual works. I will absolutely admit that not every use of the trope is malicious or that they are all equally bad, but every example just continues to reinforce the cliche.

You say "Genre fiction is going to be what it's going to be" but that is just accepting and condoning lazy and sometimes homophobic cliches. Genres and storytelling evolve, and LGBTQ+ readers/viewers/players have a right to challenge tropes like this. I don't mean to sound accusatory, you don't seem to be preaching that nothing should change, but it does seem like you don't want people to vocalize their displeasure with this trope potentially being used in TLoU2.

There are very few cannon LGBTQ+ characters in games, and to see one introduced just to be potentially fridged is really disappointing. I don't think it means the game is going to be badly written, but it does kill a little bit of my enthusiasm. I hope my post hasn't seemed overly rude or confrontational.
Not at all. I understand your concerns. I guess I just think that writing is such a complex and difficult art that I find it incredibly offputting when people lob the criticism that it's "lazy trash writing" for something that has clearly had a lot of craft, time, and thought put into it over the span of 5 years.

I can easily understand someone disagreeing with an artistic choice, but calling the writing "lazy" is in itself kind of a "lazy" criticism.

Writing is almost always a set of compromises and fitting puzzle pieces together to make it all have some semblance of sense. Everyone might think they have some brilliant angle that would avoid or subvert tropes, but it's never considered that perhaps those ideas couldn't occur to the writer because of the ideas and themes they were attempting to convey and make believable, or that they wouldn't be coherent with some other aspect of the story.

I just wish people would recognize this aspect. The idea that Neil Druckman and the Co-writers just shit this out of their asses and didn't try their hardest to make a compelling story that is congruent with the themes they are trying to express is absurd.
 

Hikari_Ryu

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2017
211
First, if you post this

The conversation has gotten pretty much out of hand and you're right in the fact it probably wasn't going to be a good discussion in the first place due to how the thread was created. When folks are writing about how Sarah dying is "problematic" because she's a daughter who dies at the start of the apocalypse (ignoring that Joel literally drives by a family with a kid five minutes into the game with the obvious implication they all die very fast and probably very brutally) tells me that people who are trying to argue some of these points aren't doing so in good faith.

It kind of make it seem like you're saying that everyone arguing against you and in favor of what's in the OP are arguing in bad faith. That's one way to try to shut down the conversation, even if you're writing long posts.


First off, why are you talking about the race of characters regarding the bury your gays trope? I literally wrote in a previous post that Tommy is the only character who is the exception to the rule because his community is supposed to be a symbol that life goes on and you can actually live in some type of non-shit hole authoritarian community even after the end of the world.

Second, comparing Uncharted 4, a rompy action movie universe with Nate's brother getting off free to The Last of Us's world is beyond disingenuous. I'm not even going to get into the discussion regarding Nadine, that's just borderline thread derailment, this thread has nothing to do with Uncharted.

I don't even know what you said in your last post, nor have I ever said people can't criticize their games or representation in them. Lozange made a lot of good points, and even if I disagree with the main thesis regarding TLoU being some egregious offender regarding the bury your gays trope that people are trying to make it out to be.

If there's a harmful trope about gay couples suffering in media and you're already killing the love interest of one of your main characters, then why have Bill's partner die?

Not sure how many times I have to write this, but Ellie's sexuality wasn't written till after the game came out. If you want to apply the trope to Bill, go ahead, I don't think it fits the parameters and examples I gave of when the trope is very clear and egregious, but I can see the arguments and points to why it would fit.

I've already mentioned or commented on basically everything else regarding your posts via other comments in the thread regarding TLoU, so I would rather not talk in circles and repeat the same points over and over.

If you think anything I said amounts to trying to shut down a conversation, then I must have been really wasting my time writing out giant posts talking about the use of the trope in media and how it pertains to TLoU, really good way to shut down a conversation in a thread I specifically wanted to talk in.

Now, onto why bring up Uncharted and race in the conversation. Since PS3, ND has released 6 Uncharted games and soon, 2 TLOU games. In the 7 titles that are released, only in Lost Legacy you have characters that are not white or straight having a happy ending. It kind of makes hard to argue in favor of them when out of 5 LGBTQ characters they have 3 die and the other 2 are left grieving for their partners, and all their non white characters die or are villains. It is a constant that only their white straight characters are the only ones that can survive and get away with a good ending, with the only exception being the one game where there's only 1 white character in the whole cast.

There are 3 non straight relationships in all of ND games, all three seem to end the same way, one person dies. There's no excuse, there's no "This one really doesn't count because....", at the end of the day it boils down to all the queer characters in TLOU are met with terrible fates and when we say "Hey, please at least don't kill us in fiction" there's always someone that goes "This time it doesn't count".
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
The first game was about a piece of trash Hard Man Making Hard Decisions as women die and suffer to fuel his manpain and ended with him overwriting his daughter's agency because he wanted to feel like the Manly Protector so I'm not surprised that they can't resist the allure of other irritating old tropes.
 

smash_robot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
994
Everyone knows that now-a-days character motivation comes from killing animals rather than loved-ones. ND should have just given Ellie a back story of having cute kitten and Joel stepping on it.
 

krae_man

Master of Balan Wonderworld
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,592
I'm starting to think the revenge tour is because that group killed Ellie's mom, not her girlfriend. Girlfriend is involved in some other way.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
I think the more important thing is you'll hopefully have a fully fleshed out, complicated, 3 dimensional gay character protagonist of Triple A zombie apocalypse game.
 

Yunsar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
423
It's disgusting how there are so many people in this thread just handily dismisses the concerns regarding LGBT portrayals in media, I thought ResetEra supposed to be LGBT friendly? But no, apparently us uppity gays should just shut up and let our whole existence forever relegated into tragedy porn for the straights.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
People are falling for the misdirection in the trailer?

So many things in that trailer are heavily edited.

Even when she fucking sees Joel it's in a completely different setting than the hand over her mouth part.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
People are falling for the misdirection in the trailer?

So many things in that trailer are heavily edited.

Even when she fucking sees Joel it's in a completely different setting than the hand over her mouth part.

People have actually answered this and I imagine are tired of doing so so they stopped posting.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
People are falling for the misdirection in the trailer?

So many things in that trailer are heavily edited.

Even when she fucking sees Joel it's in a completely different setting than the hand over her mouth part.

People who played the previews says they are both in the same location in that scene.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I'm saying that I think people wouldn't be SO upset if there was a wider array of LGBT characters in a variety of genres that aren't based around tragedy.

And you say no one wants the removal of a gay person's death subplot, but there are literally people all over this thread that are saying they will be angry with Naughty Dog if that's the case.

I'm saying maybe The Last of Us isn't the problem, but the fact that LGBT people are relegated mostly to genres focused on tragedy is the problem. That LGBT people are cordoned off because they are perceived as "obscene".

In other words genre fiction is going to be what it's going to be, but there is no reason that LGBT people should be confined to it.

So you admit stories constantly putting LGBT characters into stories of tradgedy is bad but you're dancing around that Last of Us is yet another game that's doing it third time running and litteraly never had to.

The team put effort into writing but they aren't forced by the setting into writing certain scenarios and plot set ups. No writer ever is.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,599
I mean, it seems like there could be some trickery going on, or is a very deceptive edit. We shall see.

I mean it's not an edit of footage they saw. It was the real time cutscene.

Also the enemies mention that Joel (although they just say, "that guy") has been through the area and they're trying to get him but then fall back because, "she's also here!"

He is in that scene.
 

Deleted member 17403

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I mean it's not an edit of footage they saw. It was the real time cutscene.

Also the enemies mention that Joel (although they just say, "that guy") has been through the area and they're trying to get him but then fall back because, "she's also here!"

He is in that scene.
I understand what you mean, but there is a transition between Ellie being grabbed and turning around to see Joel. ND could've easily stitched that up. I agree with the EZA person who thought it was a weird transition and the lighting didn't match. What Ellie was positioned against looked like a shanty town building and then magically segues into a house? His distance from her was off as well. Idk, I've been fooled by them before, so I try to have a discerning eye now when it comes to the stuff that they show. Joel is likely in that scene but the scenery, to me, looks like it was taken from a separate scene.
 

Kalentan

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Oct 25, 2017
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I understand what you mean, but there is a transition between Ellie being grabbed and turning around to see Joel. ND could've easily stitched that up. I agree with the EZA person who thought it was a weird transition and the lighting didn't match. What Ellie was positioned against looked like a shanty town building and then magically segues into a house? His distance from her was off as well. Idk, I've been fooled by them before, so I try to have a discerning eye now when it comes to the stuff that they show. Joel is likely in that scene but the scenery, to me, looks like it was taken from a separate scene.

It just seems a bit extreme that not only would they edit the trailer but also go as far as to make the actual cutscene in the demo build also be the same.

I don't think there's any trickery. That scene happens as presented.
 

Deleted member 17403

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It just seems a bit extreme that not only would they edit the trailer but also go as far as to make the actual cutscene in the demo build also be the same.

I don't think there's any trickery. That scene happens as presented.
I re-watched the scene at .25 speed, and you're likely right. Remember though, this is the same studio that presented a gameplay showcase to lead the audience to believe a particular outcome that never occurred in the game at all. I put nothing past them to keep people guessing.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,599
I re-watched the scene at .25 speed, and you're likely right. Remember though, this is the same studio that presented a gameplay showcase to lead the audience to particular belief that never showed up in the game at all. I put nothing past them to keep people guessing.

Like don't get me wrong. I totally think there is misdirection in the trailer. I just don't think that part is haha.
 

Glio

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Oct 27, 2017
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Spain
Some people are under the impression that the problem is that the tropes are lazy, which is a lie. Tropes are tropes, they exist and period, something for being a trope is neither good nor bad.

The problem is that this particular trope is harmful to LGBT people who want media representation.
 

FFNB

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Oct 25, 2017
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I find it interesting that some people think that Naughty Dog would spoil such a significant plot point in a trailer. Misdirection was all over the place, and I also can't imagine Naughty Dog going down the road of fridging Ellie's girlfriend to advance her story.

Not all trailers are linear experiences highlighting the entire plot of the game in 2 minutes.

Personally, I don't think Dina's death is what sets Ellie on her path in the game. I mean, of course I could be wrong, but I'll give the ND writers a little more credit than that considering their stellar work on the last decade + of ND games with pretty excellent narratives that manages to avoid being overly tropey, and definitely do their female characters justice.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,301
People are falling for the misdirection in the trailer?

So many things in that trailer are heavily edited.

Even when she fucking sees Joel it's in a completely different setting than the hand over her mouth part.

This has been addressed ad nauseum already.

Also why would it suddenly be OK if it turned out this was all a misdirection? Honestly if it were a misdirection then I think that, morally, it would be somewhat worse. At the very least if the story is as the trailer portrays then Naughty Dog will have used the suffering of queer folk as the basis of some creative worth instead of just using it as a cynical marketing tool to sell pre-orders.

Misdirection and using a trope are two different things so I don't know why you're conflating the two together like that. Naughty Dog is, right now, using the heavily-implied death of a lesbian character to market their game; whether that ends up in a misdirection doesn't matter because they're still using that trope.
 

VanDoughnut

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,424
I mean how good was Left Behind.

Riley had a whole DLC arc. She was a great character not used for cheap motivation, not killed off the first chance they got.

Also Bill wasn't killed off. Also how does that fit with the whole "bury your gays" troupe, if Ellie is gay and the main protagonist? Does it still count as fridging if a gay partner dies, but there's still a gay person at the center of the story?

I'd rather see it as ND making believable characters, than ND cheaply exploiting gay people.

TLOU2 and how it treats tropes remains to be seen. Looking forward to discussions about it after though.
 

Sub Boss

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Nov 14, 2017
13,441
evil TV TROPES forced poor Naughty Gods to use their tired cliche its not their fault, The Tropes have a hand in everything and everyone they control the creative industry through shadowy incomprehensible means