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teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
So everyone is going nuts over TLOU2, with a lot of people now worrying over the potential of it being a revenge story after Ellie loses her girlfriend.

The trope that people are worried about is "bury your gays, which tv tropes defines as a gay character dying as the "logical" conclusion to a gay characters story, or that character being gay and then dying being basically their only character traits.

I think this of many tropes but I feel it's so reductive to break this down into just "oh it's this again". We finally have a big budget game with a prominent gay character (which many men, straight and gay, are trying to tear down just because she's a woman as well sadly) and revenge stories have been around since man could write down words thousands of years ago. Why is Ellie not allowed to have this story too, especially in a post apocalyptic setting?

I get it would be lazy if they outed Ellie as gay only to say kill her two seconds after but this is an established character that they are (presumably) trying to show the themes of the first game through a new lens, of how someone deals with loss, like Joel did. Is Ellie going to be different? Or just the same?

its Ironic that on a forum that celebrates comics, anime and video games, all mediums that reuse old stories/ tropes and themes all of the time that suddenly this one trope is the one to break through But I sincerely hope they when the game comes out it's judged on its own merits and not just because of some tv tropes article referencing shitty shows that kill of characters with poor writing that have nothing to do with this game.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,658
It does sometimes feel like people critiques of stories is based on what TvTrope pages the story has.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,662
It's not TV Tropes fault that storytelling devices that writers keep using exist.
 

sph3re

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
8,403
I'm pretty sure Era is nuanced enough to acknowledge that a game can have lazy tropes and still be a good game.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,814
Won't lie, first thing I thought of was this trope after watching the trailer
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
This is not a "TV tropes" thing, I've been debating this issue with people for many years and I'm pretty damn sick of Straights trying to straightsplain why this isn't a problem. There's always an excuse, there's always some reason why this piece of media doesn't count. Except none of them ever count.
 

Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,409
California
If this is seriously how this pans out for TLoU2, people are more than justified in complaining considering they ALREADY PULLED THIS WITH ELLIE'S CHARACTER ONCE.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,518
Spain
The disproportionate amount of LGTB characters who die in artistic works is not the fault of TV Tropes

It is a legitimate concern because when speaking of representation these people have been denied for many years in many stories of happy endings.
 

Son Lamar

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,238
Alabama
I see what you mean op but just cause it's a trope doesn't mean it's bad all in the execution


Also trailer spoilers? Lol
 

Deleted member 5322

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,523
Because there aren't enough stories in mainstream media that are about queer people getting to be happy together. Tons of people will make it out alive by the end of this game, so the one other queer character in the game getting ofted would be a shame. It happens all the time in storytelling, it's not interesting.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
Fridging women multiple times (two, maybe three times in this series alone) is pretty toxic writing.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,594
Didn't Ellie already have to deal with this? Would be lame if they went to that well a second time.
 
May 25, 2019
6,026
London
Is this not a little premature for a controversy? The game is five months away, nobody has played it and knows what will happen in the story.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,518
Spain
By the way, most tropes are neither good nor bad in a vacuum, it's how they are used.

This one in particular has been overexploited and yes, it is harmful.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
The reason it's written down in TVTropes is because it keeps happening to begin with.
 

Deleted member 17403

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,664
I love how some people are so quick to talk about how trite and trope-y TLoU Pt.2 is without actually having seen Dina die. People should wait and see before jumping to conclusions. A number of users act like they're a part of the dev team and already know the game's plot. People ignorantly talk as if they definitively know major arcs of the story but are honestly just as clueless as the rest of us.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,658
The reason it's written down in TVTropes is because it keeps happening to begin with.

There are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of tropes. Literally everything is a trope. Even original stories are packed with tropes.

Even if you write a story to go against that trope you are already fulfill another trope.
 
May 25, 2019
6,026
London
I love how some people are so quick to talk about how trite and trope-y TLoU Pt.2 is without actually having seen Dina die. People should wait and see before jumping to conclusions. A number of users act like they're a part of the dev team and already know the game's plot. People ignorantly talk as if they definitively know major arcs of the story but are honestly just as clueless as the rest of us.

Precisely.

Also not sure if you guys played the first game but...there aren't really any happy endings in The Last of Us. People lose daughters, brothers, parents, friends. The death is not limited to LGBT characters
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
There are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of tropes. Literally everything is a trope. Even original stories are packed with tropes.

Even if you write a story to go against that trope you are already fulfill another trope.

I'm saying that the constant death of queer characters in fiction has led to a baked-in resentment, especially from queer players.

TLOU is post-apocalyptic, I'm not going to admonish it for having dead loved ones, but it'd be nice if this wasn't like one of four stories queer characters are allowed to have.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,662
By the way, most tropes are neither good nor bad in a vacuum, it's how they are used.

This one in particular has been overexploited and yes, it is harmful.

Yup, it's no different to how women got fridged far more than men (and still are, in fact), because their worth is solely to develop the male lead.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
Queer people are frequently used as cheap tragedy in media hence "bury your gays" trope. It's stale, it's boring, and people are sick of it.
 

Deleted member 17403

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,664
Precisely.

Also not sure if you guys played the first game but...there aren't really any happy endings in The Last of Us. People lose daughters, brothers, parents, friends. The death is not limited to LGBT characters
That annoys me. Everyone dies in TLoU, everyone! Men, women and children die and people throw a hissy fit because a bisexual character possibly dies. What!? Some of the complaints just don't make sense. People put their blinders on and act like only members of the lgbtq community die, when that definitely is not the case.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,904
It all comes down to execution. Tropes, cliches, etc.. aren't inherently bad.

All that said, don't get caught up in a misdirection or swerve either lol.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Your conclusion is nonsensical. People complain about tropes all the time, this isn't some breakthrough event
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Joel also had to deal with this. Clearly women have to die for the main character to have any motivation to do anything.

Sarah's death wasnt motivation for Joel's actions in TLOU though. And roughly the same number if not more key male characters die in the game than female. The reality is a lot of people die in TLOU irrespective of gender, because it's a harsh, brutal and violent world.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,928
Fridging women multiple times (two, maybe three times in this series alone) is pretty toxic writing.
ND created a brutal world full of brutal people doing brutal things. Women aren't immune. Still, Ellie was a strong character in the first game (along with Tess), a strong character in this second one, and then you have the mystery woman in the earlier trailer, too. So I think it's unfair and short-sighted to say ND has toxic writing in regards to how they treat women.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,658
I'm saying that the constant death of queer characters in fiction has led to a baked-in resentment, especially from queer players.

TLOU is post-apocalyptic, I'm not going to admonish it for having dead loved ones, but it'd be nice if this wasn't like one of four stories queer characters are allowed to have.

Thing is that TLOU already subscribes to the idea that anyone can die. Children to adults.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,157
NYC
That annoys me. Everyone dies in TLoU, everyone! Men, women and children die and people throw a hissy fit because a bisexual character possibly dies. What!? Some of the complaints just don't make sense. People put their blinders on and act like only members of the lgbtq community die, when that definitely is not the case.
Because this particular death, going purely by the trailer, is used as a plot device and nothing more. Here's to hoping it's more nuanced in the game!

Edit: Plus, if this really doesn't matter why not give Ellie a friend that dies, seting her off on a similar course of revenge? Or why couldn't it be Joel?
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,129
Chile
Is it a big deal for some people? Wow.

The first game is also a re-take on usual tropes. Why would anyone be surprised if the sequel do the same? I thought the delivery of the story was what mattered in the first game, instead of the actual cliché story.

I'm actually more worried about actually improving the design of the game itself and not having the same "puzzle" three or four times lol
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
That annoys me. Everyone dies in TLoU, everyone! Men, women and children die and people throw a hissy fit because a bisexual character possibly dies. What!? Some of the complaints just don't make sense. People put their blinders on and act like only members of the lgbtq community die, when that definitely is not the case.

Straight people live a lot more in fiction! Mostly because straight people get to do everything.
 

Deleted member 17403

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,664
Because this particular death, going purely by the trailer, is used as a plot device and nothing more. Here's to hoping it's more nuanced in the game!
Straight people live a lot more in fiction! Mostly because straight people get to do everything.
But you DON'T see Dina die. Did you ever consider that it's a misdirection. Neil already said the game will explore complex themes throughout. Revenge, and Justice being two of them. You all see what you want to see. Watch the trailer again, and tell me we see Dina die.
 

Sera

Member
Oct 27, 2017
698
Melbourne
Out of all the "tvtropes" tropes you could complain about
"bury your gays" has the most legit criticism
people aren't just tired of it because its repetitive, lazy and trite
it makes people tired on that deep break your heart level, that you live in a world that refuses those like you a modicum of ongoing happiness, and can only portray you in media dying or losing the one you love in tragedy
LGBTQIA deserve more than just being typecast as tragic stories over and over again
 
Last edited:

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,157
NYC
But you DON'T see Dina die. Did you ever consider that it's a misdirection. Neil already said the game will explore complex themes throughout. Revenge, and Justice being two of them. You all see what you want to see. Watch the trailer again, and tell me we see Dina die.
And I'm saying that all we have to go on is the assumptions drawn from the trailer. This is a discussion about that.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Thing is that TLOU already subscribes to the idea that anyone can die. Children to adults.

And that's perfectly fine! Nobody here has the power to stop Naughty Dog from telling its story.

It's just we're starved for happy queer characters in media (or rather realistically happy queer characters with natural struggles because we're still in that pendulum effect of there being exactly two extremes of queer representation) so TLOU is just one more on the pile.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,129
The fridging women/bury your gays trope is arguably offset by the fact the player character is gay and will be burying/fridging baddies all throughout the game, lol. In other words, the player role empowers a female person/LGBT person.

Unless Ellie herself gets killed in the end, I suppose.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Unlike everyone in this thread argui g that it's fine because the world is dark, I actually have some faith that Druckman isn't a bad writer and like usual will come up with some nuance rather than just gunning for nihilistic hopelessness.


In general bury your gays is an overused trope and gets criticised because it happens so often. That's not to say that a gay character can't get a well written death but like all media and stories, the effect is diminished when everything else does it with less well meaning intentions.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,157
NYC
The fridging women/bury your gays trope is arguably offset by the fact the player character is gay and will be burying/fridging baddies all throughout the game, lol. In other words, the player role empowers a female person/LGBT person.

Unless Ellie herself gets killed in the end, I suppose
You don't know what the term fridging means, do you? You can't "fridge" someone that isn't a character that will have a story to be explored.