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I use 30 OLED Light in a dark room for SDR and it feels well enough. Of course HDR is different, but still, plenty of modes, for example how Cinema Mode is brighter than Cinema on DV, or DTM for HDR10.
Btw, The Witcher 3 is the first game where I feel like DTM off is better than on so far. The HDR in this game is weird overall, although it doesn't look bad (the banding though, OMG...)
Whelp, it was good while it lasted but TCL's impressive 5,184 zone Mini-LED TV has been bested by Konka's 10,000 dimming zone Mini-LED 8K TV.
AVS Forum said:
If there's anyone using Calman Home for LG or Sony, I highly recommend using the LG/Dolby white point vs D65.
I have done hundreds of calibrations on LCD, DLP, Plasma, OLED. The OLED sets do not calibrate properly when shooting for D65. You will have essentially a green cast to the picture, and using an alternative white point brings the sets to a much better color purity, especially on white.
Technicolor on the LG OLEDs is also far, far, far from an accurate image.
I believe Sony has already been factory calibrating to an alternative white point on their OLEDs and their A9G won the shootout in almost every category.
Give it a look-see. I have custom calibrated the following modes on my OLED:
Game
Cinema
HDR Game
HDR Cinema
Dolby Vision Cinema
Technicolor (to D65 for comparison)
D65 just doesn't translate correct to human eyes on a WRGB panel. If Best Buy is doing Geek Squad calibrations and not implementing the alternative white point, I think you are actually better off just using the Cinema presets and calling it a day.
I have done hundreds of calibrations on LCD, DLP, Plasma, OLED. The OLED sets do not calibrate properly when shooting for D65. You will have essentially a green cast to the picture, and using an alternative white point brings the sets to a much better color purity, especially on white.
Technicolor on the LG OLEDs is also far, far, far from an accurate image.
I believe Sony has already been factory calibrating to an alternative white point on their OLEDs and their A9G won the shootout in almost every category.
Give it a look-see. I have custom calibrated the following modes on my OLED:
Game
Cinema
HDR Game
HDR Cinema
Dolby Vision Cinema
Technicolor (to D65 for comparison)
D65 just doesn't translate correct to human eyes on a WRGB panel. If Best Buy is doing Geek Squad calibrations and not implementing the alternative white point, I think you are actually better off just using the Cinema presets and calling it a day.
You just know that they'll come in with aggressive pricing too which the big boys won't like.
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Man. If someone told me how much TV I'll watch when I get a new TV I would have laughed. Damn it LG. I can't stop watching stuff on this TV.
What are your favorite HDR movies on Nerflix. The service needs an option to filter by feature like HDR and 4K
What are your favorite HDR movies on Nerflix. The service needs an option to filter by feature like HDR and 4K
Annihilation was the first thing I watched and it's spectacular in 4K/HDR.
I decided to get the LG C9. I was buying a new TV this year since I did not buy one last year. But looking at the changes from the CX (or C10) versus the C9 there was not enough for me to wait and also pay about $1500 or more when the CX comes out. I am coming from a 75" Samsung Q9FN which I do love. Some of you may know that I usually buy a new TV on a yearly basis and I skipped last year due to other things going on with getting a new home etc. When we first moved into our new home I had a 65" E7 LG OLED. I loved the look but the HDR was a bit too dim for me. I had a few games that I would use as tests and it just did not have the punch. I think what also ruined me is that prior to getting the new house I had owned a 65" ZD9 which had a much higher NIT out put. After some debating, I had sold the E7 and bought the Q9FN and really have enjoyed it. The VRR was a big plus for me. However, that true black was something that was lacking, even though the HDR was out of this world.
As I started above, I was going to buy a new set this year and the CX was on the radar...but I was leaning towards a 77" since the Samsung was 75" and I did not want to move down in size. I looked at the 77" C9, but the wife put a firm stop on that, even though the price was really great. She just approved 2 weeks ago my PC rebuild which came out to about $3500 or so...so going for a $5400 TV on top of it was not going to happen. My bonus room I sit about 7' away from the set, so I moved my recliners about 6" forward and the C9 65" sits about 6" closes to the edge of my stand. Overall, the size, while smaller is not that much different since I am not sitting that far away.
When it comes to the HDR performance, I am really impressed. There has been a very good improvement from the 7 Series and Game Mode does not seem to be as gimped as it was on the 7 Series. I am really blown away. I tried my usual suite of test games I use and the HDR while not a 100% match versus the Samsung holds up extremely well...even considering my anal attitude to having a very bright panel for HDR. The combination of the pure black due to it being a OLED and the improvements they have made since the 7 Series really is impressive. In the games I tested, they looked much better to me. I would never tell anyone that the Samsung QLED sucks....it is still an impressive TV...but the C9 and I am sure the 10 series HDR performance is extremely well done.
I am still testing and breaking in the TV, but I am really impressed by it. I have a Series 20 GPU (2080ti) and I tested Gsync and damn does it works really well. I also connected my "X" direct to the TV so I can use VRR and again, worked like a charm. With the C9 having E-Arc, I am able to have both the PC and the Xbox One X direct connect to take advantage of VRR/GSync but still get Dolby Atmos for my audio. That was one BIG gripe I had with the Samsung..since they don't support E-Arc I would have to choose...do I want to use VRR or have Atmos...could not have both. But the C9 that is all solved and it works perfectly. There are no receivers in existence that allow both VRR and GSync through the receiver. My receiver does allow ALLM and E-Arc so it was a good match with the C9.
I still need to work on settings and other things...but so far it has been great and as a person that has spent most of the last 10 years with a LCD and usually the top of the line ones....the C9 really blows me away with the true black and especially how much better HDR is implemented in the newer models.
As I started above, I was going to buy a new set this year and the CX was on the radar...but I was leaning towards a 77" since the Samsung was 75" and I did not want to move down in size. I looked at the 77" C9, but the wife put a firm stop on that, even though the price was really great. She just approved 2 weeks ago my PC rebuild which came out to about $3500 or so...so going for a $5400 TV on top of it was not going to happen. My bonus room I sit about 7' away from the set, so I moved my recliners about 6" forward and the C9 65" sits about 6" closes to the edge of my stand. Overall, the size, while smaller is not that much different since I am not sitting that far away.
When it comes to the HDR performance, I am really impressed. There has been a very good improvement from the 7 Series and Game Mode does not seem to be as gimped as it was on the 7 Series. I am really blown away. I tried my usual suite of test games I use and the HDR while not a 100% match versus the Samsung holds up extremely well...even considering my anal attitude to having a very bright panel for HDR. The combination of the pure black due to it being a OLED and the improvements they have made since the 7 Series really is impressive. In the games I tested, they looked much better to me. I would never tell anyone that the Samsung QLED sucks....it is still an impressive TV...but the C9 and I am sure the 10 series HDR performance is extremely well done.
I am still testing and breaking in the TV, but I am really impressed by it. I have a Series 20 GPU (2080ti) and I tested Gsync and damn does it works really well. I also connected my "X" direct to the TV so I can use VRR and again, worked like a charm. With the C9 having E-Arc, I am able to have both the PC and the Xbox One X direct connect to take advantage of VRR/GSync but still get Dolby Atmos for my audio. That was one BIG gripe I had with the Samsung..since they don't support E-Arc I would have to choose...do I want to use VRR or have Atmos...could not have both. But the C9 that is all solved and it works perfectly. There are no receivers in existence that allow both VRR and GSync through the receiver. My receiver does allow ALLM and E-Arc so it was a good match with the C9.
I still need to work on settings and other things...but so far it has been great and as a person that has spent most of the last 10 years with a LCD and usually the top of the line ones....the C9 really blows me away with the true black and especially how much better HDR is implemented in the newer models.
EvilBoris had a very similar experience to you with getting faulty Q9FNs and then deciding to switch to a C9, I believe his response to that switch was very positive.
I'm waiting for the uhd disc to go on sale, I'm envious of you right now, should look incredible on OLED.
Even if we've debated a lot before I really appreciate you buying a TV almost yearly and giving your impressions and comparisons.
I think LG improved HDR from the 8 series and onward cause I've seen 7 series owners with the same reaction.
Yeah, for me since gaming is my main hobby, I always like to have the latest TV to make my gaming more enhanced. Last year was one of the first that I did not move forward and that was mainly because I did not see major advancements other than what LG had. After watching all the CES press conferences and reading specs I just felt that the 2020 LG's did not have enough "new" things that the current C9 did not have or will be getting in a firmware update. For me, in bullet format it was:
* HDMI 2.1
* E-Arc since there are Zero HDMI 2.1 Receivers
* VRR (for current Xbox One X & PS5/Xbox Series X)
* G-Sync (For Nvidia Series 20 cards)
* Firmware to allow 4k/120fps coming to C9. But no GPU on earth can handle 4k/120fps in any modern game so that is a future thing.
* Price. I was able to get the 65" C9 for $2499.99. I am a Best Buy Elite so I have 45 days to return or price match and was told already by the BB Supervisor that it was going to go on Sale prior to Superbowl.
Looking at the release price of the C9 65" when it came out it was $4500 and occasional sales at $4000.00 . It did not hit $2500 until the last few months. So eathier I go now or spend $4k for a C10 with some improvements, but not enough to justify the extra expense. I could have waited for the C10 to go down, but the C9 with the GSync update and that LG announced the 4k/120 for the C9 in an upcoming Firmware was good enough for me.
I have had the time to test all the bullet points above with the exception of the 120fps/4k and they all work and work extremely well. I even tried 1440p/120fps with GSync and damn...it is lag free (almost) and damn is it smooth. I still prefer the cleaner look of 4k native, but some games look extremely close to 4k but not all. I know adding some sharpening can clean it up a bit.
There is a lot I want to share of my experience that I will post a little later. I have the Samsung still and have them both running in the same room and while I have been a big pain in the ass pushing/arguing the benefits of LED more so the higher end sets due to the NITS, the C9 with how much they improved HDR from my last experience with the Series 7, it is really great. Yes, there are some content that the Samsung trumps in HDR due to the NIT output, but I would be shocked if seen side by side that someone would say they are not close or that due to the pure black some HDR content can look better/brighter to the eye (even though numbers would still show that a higher end LED has higher nits). But I will post that info in a future post. I have a lot of experience with the higher end LED sets and I know there is a lot of OLED or Bust talk or if you don't do OLED you are not doing it right....there are some advantages to LED over OLED and I would not tell anyone if they bought a good LED that it is a waste...but what I would say is if you are not sure give a OLED a look or visit a friend or hell buy one that has a liberal return policy. I always felt strongly about OLED it is just that the HDR at the time I had a OLED just could not measure up..now…well my tune has changed.
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So if I am hearing this correctly the LG tech guy says the 2019 C9 tvs can NOT do 4K/120hz due to the limitations of HDMI tech in the 2019 model. Starts around 11:43 in this video:
I was planning on picking up a C9 but I don't know now. :(
I was planning on picking up a C9 but I don't know now. :(
It's giving my 7.2.2 Atmos system a workout too!
The 12 gauge shotgun scene is making Excellent use of my butt kickers!
That same guy says differently in this video from HDTV Test. The big difference is that on the 2020 models, if you have a GPU that is a 20 series it could do 4k/120...but the 2019 models will get a firmware to do it as well but the GPU will need to have HDMI 2.1 (which future cards should have). So the 2019 can/will do it but you will need a GPU that has HDMI 2.1. The 2020's seem to have the ability to do it with a 2.0a HDMI port on the GPU but the 2019 will need a GPU with HDMI 2.1 to do 4k/120fps.
I have a 2080ti Water cooled and overclocked to the highest it can go and you can't nearly even close to 120fps in 4k native on any modern game...even older games it is almost impossible to hit 4k/120 with a 2080ti. This feature is a "future" feature so a future GPU which should have 2.1 would still get you the ability on the 2019 models.
What do you have that you can push 4k/120 right now?
Here is the video...it is around the 5:30 mark where he mentions the update for 2019 models.
Oh thanks and mostly I wanted to get the C9 so I was prepared for the PS5/Xbox Series X this fall. Wanted a tv that would support all the new tech and not completely break the bank as I'm limited in funds and the C9 is a lot cheaper then the CX will go for.
That is why pulled the trigger. Once all the specs for the CX was released I compared to what the C9 could do right now and aside from some differences and I am sure that the CX will be a "little" better the cost between what the C9 is now versus the first 3-6 months pricing of the CX it just did not add up for me. When I read about the 4k/120fps coming to the 2019 that was just more reasons I did it. If you are console PS5/Series X I doubt you will ever see 4k/120fps for those. But it is good to have if you ever get into high end PC gaming.
I am sure as the CX comes out that we will get hard numbers on what it does better...but again, based on the specs released it is a incremental update, uses the same panel etc. It does have the Gen 3 CPU which is rated about 15% faster.
With the year round impressions like these, I wonder if I'm even really experiencing HDR in all its glory on my B6. Feels bad.
Will this work with the C8 as well? And which hardware do you suggest?
Game Mode on both the 6 and 7 series had some major flaws. When I had my B6, it was so bad that I opted to just play in a non Game ISF mode for HDR, and for the games I was playing, the input lag was tolerable (although when I first beat God of War twice on a PC monitor and then transitioned to the B6 it felt terrible). Thankfully, with the 8 series and beyond they fixed many of the problems, and I have zero complaints playing HDR games in Game Mode now in my C8. In a few years I'll upgrade again to have VRR, and it will either be an OLED again, or mLED depending on various factors. Also, you might want to mess around with Dynamic Tone Mapping when gaming too if you haven't yet.
I'm the same really, I think the C8 does enough to keep me happy for the foreseeable, granted the inclusion of HDMI 2.1 is nice on the latest model/s, but in reality we are not getting 4K 120hz anytime soon! I mean even with a 2080ti that's only just covering 120hz 1080p in most games at ultra, so VRR is the only tangible benefit from the get go!
Another thing and something I've said before is how bloody close the gap between 1080p and 4K is closing when it comes to TAA implementation, sure 4K is a bit cleaner when we are talking distant detail, but damn it's impressive.........but when TAA is removed from the equation, there is a big divide in PQ, and 1080p looks messy as hell in 3D titles, but going forward most games will have some kind of TAA, and I think its given 1080p new life, with all it's performance benefits at 120hz.
As far as PQ goes, a bit better gradation in dark (particularly bit starved scenes) isn't enough when you already have a C8, and then you look at what the CX is bringing and realise that 120hz BFI is the only proper upgrade over a C9, and even then you won't be able to use that for HDR, because like the C8 it'll dim too much, could be nice for SDR though.
Yeah, but VRR is still pretty nice. Even less input lag due to no longer needing vsync, and no, or much less stutter overall. It's not like what I'm currently playing on has been a bad experience, but there's always better. HDMI 2.1 for gaming probably won't even be needed for frame rates before it's used for 4:4:4 HDR.
Don't feel bad! I currently have buyer's remorse to the max xD I bought the 77C8 for 4.5k Euro in November 2018... I just found out that my country sold the 77C9 for 3.5k twice in November 2019... I am now wondering what the 77 CX will go for and if it is in any way possible to sell a 77C8 online... So you have the chance to upgrade to a new one compared to me xD
Yes, I have messed with the DTM and am using the HT (can't remember the name) one based on doing some research for gaming. For Movies, I am using the regular tone mapping but for gaming I am using the HT one or whatever it is called.
In regards to your comments about the 6 series, I had a 7 series E7 which shared the same challenges in HDR game mode that the 6 series had. What really pissed me off when I would change the picture mode from Game to Standard it looks SO MUCH brighter. But the input lag was a lot higher. One of the first things I tested when I got the C9 was switching picture modes when in Game HDR mode and sure enough the HDR brightness was about the same. There was some variances but that was other settings. I actually tried to match up the same settings in Standard and Game Mode and HDR looked about the same which is great news.
What really blows me away so far is being able to play games at Native 4k, HDR and 60fps on PC games and due to Gsync being able to turn things up to max and still be smooth. While my PC handles most if not all games at 4k/60fps without it...there are some that push it big time and having Gsync solves that issue. As long as my minimum frame rate stays at 40fps and above, Gsync is enabled and feels very smooth with no screen tearing. I even tried some 1440p at 120fps and holy shit is it so damn smooth.
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No it does not. I was hoping the newer sets (2020 models) would improve the range, but they are the same. For 1080p/4k the Range is minimum 40 and max is 60. So if you are gaming at 1080p or 4k and your frame rate is let's say averaging 45fps, it will feel smooth and no screen tearing due to VRR. At 1440p the range is minimum 40, max 120fps. GSync is the same range as VRR. With the difference in the 2020 LG's is that with HDMI 2.0b GPU's (Nvidia 20 series) you can get 4k/120fps with the same range of min. 40/max 120fps. For 2019 LG's a firmware update will be released that will allow 4k/120fps, but your GPU will need HDMI 2.1 which is most likely what the next batch of Nvidia cards "should" have. There is a limitation in the 2019's HDMI ports that wont allow it to drop down to 2.0a and allow 4k/120, but since the 2019's have 2.1 the can achieve it if the other end has 2.1 as well. Most likely the PS5/Series X will have 2.1 so if they have Indie games at 4k/120 it will work on 2019 LG Sets or if you get a new Nvidia Card with 2.1.
My 2018 Samsung Q9FN has VRR and the range is the same..min 40. Was hoping 2 years later the range would be better...but it is the same.
edit...My 1080p range at 40 minimum/max 60 may be wrong. I am looking into it...I think at 1080p the range is 40 min/120 max. But don't want to say definite until I read up on it.
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For C9 owners...I need a little help.
I have my Xbox One X in HDMI 1, PC in HDMI 3 and my Receiver in HDMI 2-Arc. On my receiver I have the PS4 Pro, Samsung 4k Blu Ray Player and my Direct TV. When gaming on the "X" or PC my audio is sent via eArc to the receiver so I can maintain Dolby Atmos and have VRR/GSync since no receivers in existence had send VRR/GSync. The issue I have is that when I switch to watch a movie using the Samsung and I change the HDMI input to where the receiver is plugged in (HDMI 2) it always automatically turns on my PS4. How can I turn this off? I don't want the TV turning stuff on automatically and this ONLY happening with the PS4. It does not turn on anything else.
I have my Xbox One X in HDMI 1, PC in HDMI 3 and my Receiver in HDMI 2-Arc. On my receiver I have the PS4 Pro, Samsung 4k Blu Ray Player and my Direct TV. When gaming on the "X" or PC my audio is sent via eArc to the receiver so I can maintain Dolby Atmos and have VRR/GSync since no receivers in existence had send VRR/GSync. The issue I have is that when I switch to watch a movie using the Samsung and I change the HDMI input to where the receiver is plugged in (HDMI 2) it always automatically turns on my PS4. How can I turn this off? I don't want the TV turning stuff on automatically and this ONLY happening with the PS4. It does not turn on anything else.
It's not going to happen. Even screens with a GSync module in bottom out at 30fps. I'm not sure about OLED, but LCD's can't run at below 30Hz as they won't be recieving enough voltage. 40 is probably going to be the bottom end for regular TVs.
Go into the PS4 settings and turn off 'Enable HDMI Device Link'
Did you try the different HDMI CEC settings? They are called simpli link or something like that. You can disable the power on/off feature. Maybe this helps
Any game can just output the same 30fps frame twice to trick the tv into thinking it is 60fps. It could even be done at the OS level.
I thought I read that some games already do this.
Thanks folks...will try the PS4 end first to see if that works then go to the TV side if it does not and try that. Thanks again!
I hate the turn on/off feature. My kids turn on the TV by putting the Switch back into the dock and stuff like that. I think it's nice that I can control the xbox for example with my remote. But in the end I always disabled all the HDMI CEC stuff if it annoyed me.
With the 2020 TVs coming, when can I expect a price drop on 2019 TV's?
Im looking to get either a SONY X950G or a SAMSUNG Q70R.
Not sure which one yet, but what I've read those are the best options in the ~$1200 (CDN) range.
Any other recommendations?
Im looking to get either a SONY X950G or a SAMSUNG Q70R.
Not sure which one yet, but what I've read those are the best options in the ~$1200 (CDN) range.
Any other recommendations?
Another question. In most HDR games...the HDR settings screen works great....but in others or when setting gamma they don't. Two examples:
In Forza 7 when setting the HDR level it says to move the slider until the log disappears, but no matter where I set it, it never disappears. In Forza Horizon which has a somewhat similar set up it works without issue. In the Witcher 3 when setting the gamma, it says to move the slider until the Witcher logo just disappears...but again, the log never appears at all no matter where I set it. I do have HDMI Black Level on Low on the TV end. Is this normal? On the majority of HDR games and non HDR games the gamma settings work flawlessly, so far it is these 2 games where it is not working.
Lastly....Sharpness setting on the C9. Is setting at Zero the one to use? It came out of the box set at 10..but read some settings and showed it should be at 10. I know different sets use sharpness differently. On my Samsung Sharpness at Zero was better since anything higher added jaggies to the image.
In Forza 7 when setting the HDR level it says to move the slider until the log disappears, but no matter where I set it, it never disappears. In Forza Horizon which has a somewhat similar set up it works without issue. In the Witcher 3 when setting the gamma, it says to move the slider until the Witcher logo just disappears...but again, the log never appears at all no matter where I set it. I do have HDMI Black Level on Low on the TV end. Is this normal? On the majority of HDR games and non HDR games the gamma settings work flawlessly, so far it is these 2 games where it is not working.
Lastly....Sharpness setting on the C9. Is setting at Zero the one to use? It came out of the box set at 10..but read some settings and showed it should be at 10. I know different sets use sharpness differently. On my Samsung Sharpness at Zero was better since anything higher added jaggies to the image.
Many sets have already gone down. But around Superbowl time they go on sale. I was specifically told by the guy that sold me the C9 at Best Buy that it will "definitely" go on sale...and with the return window I would be able to get an adjustment. The other time frame they go on sale is right before (about 2 weeks) before the 2020's come out at retail. The challenge is still getting something in-stock as some retailers do start earlier on sales to get rid of old stock to make room for 2020 model's.
I have the same problem with brightness on my Sony 930e. If I even get close to having it disappear, the game ends up looking super dark also (so doesn't really look right anyway)...
Not sure if this is a TV thing, game thing, or both. Also I'd say I have pretty accurate settings on my TV (short of having it professionally calibrated).
When in HDR, the panel is in native 2.2 mode, which is why your black level will be always low or limited.
I leave brightness or gamma on the game sliders at the default setting.
Sharpness should be zero on 2018/2019 LG OLEDs.
Yes. You need a meter, Calman, and a pattern generator that can inject metadata for both HDR and Dolby Vision.
If you head to AVSFORUM you can lookup the cheap test pattern generator thread and see the various methods.
I am currently using an HDFury to inject the HDR, but those are really hard to find anymore.
If Samsung adjusts the HDR curb on its 2020 4k QLEDs and further develops its local dimming algorithm, I think it will be the tv to get over LG OLED hands down.
It's the resolution. You can do 1080p HDR 4:4:4 with HDMI 2.0.
The issue is getting 4k 60Hz 4:4:4 which requires 4 times the bandwidth.
That's why I wondered about 2.1. I believe
HDMI 2.0 has a bandwidth of 18.0Gbps hence 4K 60 4:4:4 10b-HDR = 22.28Gbps would not be possible. However, with 48Gbps bandwidth on 2.1, 4:4:4 in 4K/60 (10bit/ 12bit) HDR should be possible?
You can't compensate the lack of individual zones with a better software/algorithm. OLED will only be matched in this regard by micro led. Maybe mini led will already be good enough for most scenes.
You can get close enough in my opinion. Seeing them in show rooms they're already close and OLED has near black shimmering issues.
LG fixed the near black chroma issue back in March.
You can look at a variety of TVs in a showroom in torch mode and they will look pretty similar. View them side by side and you'll see the difference at home: