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Nov 13, 2017
459
Honestly, I wish to be other countries band together (Canada, UK, the EU, etc) and force a new constitution onto them that revokes their right to wage war in a similar manner to Japan. Then if there needs to be any aggressive action taken on a manner similar to this, there should be some form of global army held by multiple countries and need authority from multiple leaders to agree on a single course of action for aggressive warfare.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,127
Chile
The military specifically targets lower income Americans who lack the opportunity to gain education, financial stabilitiy, or family healthcare coverage otherwise. The system is designed to keep those necessities out of reach of underserved community so they have little recourse but to join up. Don't blame the people who are desperate for opportunities, blame the people keeping our society that way.

The problem Is when you point Out this, the response should be "yeah, I'll find a different way". Or a "yeah, don't enlist folks".

The response Is "well, fuck It"
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
Uh, no. If you are directly involved in these military actions as a pilot or foot soldier, you are equally as guilty as those at the top. It's no secret the US military is used to oppress millions around the globe. If you voluntarily join that organization, you're part of the problem. Especially if you join in on the killing. No better than the soldiers of the Wehrmacht.
Should the cook at the decaf over in Nevada be held responsible as well?
What about the sec forces guy who scanned the RQ-9s pilot ID at the gate?

what about the landlord to the pilot.


the thing is y'all have no fucking idea about reality.
tje reality is:
TRUMP and his circle, Fox News, and conservatives are to blame.
Not the assorted ranks in the military that are stationed all across the world.
There are currently what, like 100,000 troops around ME and Europe?
There's like a million more not there
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
10,199
We used dell computers back in the navy
We used google chrome and Microsoft outlook to divvy out our weather briefs. We also had a Starbucks subway and Popeyes (and more) on base.
guess all those shouldtake theblame too right
I'm sorry but the military's reputation has been drug through the mud in the last several years by the corruption on display. I'm disgusted by the state of our military. It's embarrassing.

It's the top. Its not you. But it tarnishes the whole image.
 

sleepnaught

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,538
Should the cook at the decaf over in Nevada be held responsible as well?
What about the sec forces guy who scanned the RQ-9s pilot ID at the gate?

what about the landlord to the pilot.


the thing is y'all have no fucking idea about reality.
tje reality is:
TRUMP and his circle, Fox News, and conservatives are to blame.
Not the assorted ranks in the military that are stationed all across the world.
There are currently what, like 100,000 troops around ME and Europe?
There's like a million more not there
I said those directly involved in the military actions, the ones doing the killing. The "million more not there"...What about them? Are they going to ignore orders if it's their turn to do the killing? They joined up knowing full well what they signed up for. They are ready to do their President's bidding just as Hitler's troops did for him.
 

DeusOcha

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Osaka, Japan
the thing is y'all have no fucking idea about reality.
tje reality is:
TRUMP and his circle, Fox News, and conservatives are to blame.
Not the assorted ranks in the military that are stationed all across the world.
There are currently what, like 100,000 troops around ME and Europe?
There's like a million more not there

And who do you think allows "TRUMP and his circle, Fox News, and conservatives" in power or are even a part of? You mean to tell me there doesn't exist a conservative mindset on military bases overseas? You mean to tell me there doesn't exist a power play between US personnel overseas over the local natives? You mean to tell me that with every batch of recruits the majority aren't indoctrinated to said toxic culture? Get out of here.

Pointing at "oh its only X authority whose bad!" as deflection does nothing for progress. We can all point to whatever authority figures we have in our lives for the shit that is reality. What's needed is introspection and realizing your specific role, anyone's specific role, into how that plays in maintaining such abusive authority. From holding the trigger of a gun to being a damn chef.

Edit: And the fact of the matter is, your common serviceman stationed on base, be it armed or not, doesn't give a damn about introspection as long as they get that stability in life the military exploits/provides.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
.

Edit: And the fact of the matter is, your common serviceman stationed on base, be it armed or not, doesn't give a damn about introspection as long as they get that stability in life the military exploits/provides.
Wow

seems likeyou just don't like military people if you make those assumptions.
 

DeusOcha

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Osaka, Japan
Wow

seems likeyou just don't like military people if you make those assumptions.

Is that not the reality of the military? For one whose espousing reality I'm spelling it out for you. You said it yourself, the military service isn't so unlike a white collar job back at home. Difference is the citizen working the white collar job has more degrees of separation of controlling authority on what their stability in life is (or lackthereof) giving more room for independent thoughts/choices. No such breathing room of choice exists for the military. Am I wrong?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
Hey guys, anyone here work at amazon, google, Microsoft etc? Guess what, you're also aiding the military industrial complex.

STOP PUNCHING DOWN OR SIDEWAYS.
Same principles that apply with income war apply to this morality question. The problem is the wealthy and powerful, not the employees.

There's a bunch of people in tech boycotting Github because ICE happens to use them to host some code (it's not even clear what this code is, it's just known the are a customer) and people pull this too. This is rather silly because it's probably about as removed as a Texas road paver being an infrastructure platform, they aren't ICE employees or even agree or have any real relation to them other than the business they work for owns a service contract (in fact because ICE is an official entity of the US government as American voters the protesters have even closer relations to ICE). But people protest anyway and to be honest, it's not a bad thing because it creates friction to normally ambient flows of goods and services to destructive entities. It's drawing attention to the problem the same way anyone might chose which capitalist entity to support even if there is at least a trace amount of hypocrisy in all of it. But this is still a far cry from putting on the goddam uniform which is saying "yup, I represent this in an official capacity."
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
Hmm, didn't know the entirety of the forces turned into CENTCOM all of a sudden.

i was over in Pacom, all we did was monitor the South China Sea and ECS. No war over there. Just protecting shipping lanes basically.
I think it's ridiculous to make it seems as all military members are responsible for these shit wars.

It's like blaming a an Apple Genius Bar employee for Apple having slave Chinese labor.

It doesn't matter if you're not actively in a fight. If you're in the pacific you're keeping China, Russia, NK in check. If you're in europe you're also keeping Russia in check and/or supporting folks over in AFRICOM/CENTCOM. Not counting you were most likely also deploying to CENTCOM in the previous years when the tempo was higher. When shit pops off its definitely not "High school Pt. 2" like you're saying.

Infantizing our role in all this is insanity.

Hey guys, anyone here work at amazon, google, Microsoft etc? Guess what, you're also aiding the military industrial complex.

STOP PUNCHING DOWN OR SIDEWAYS.
Same principles that apply with income war apply to this morality question. The problem is the wealthy and powerful, not the employees.

The military specifically targets lower income Americans who lack the opportunity to gain education, financial stabilitiy, or family healthcare coverage otherwise. The system is designed to keep those necessities out of reach of underserved community so they have little recourse but to join up. Don't blame the people who are desperate for opportunities, blame the people keeping our society that way.

The people at the top have no incentive to stop when the downtrodden are willingly complying to support the system. When folks are just happy to get in, do work, collect their bennies and peace out setting up the next generation to do the same, "the people desperate for opportunities" and the "people keeping our society that way" turn out to be the same people.

No one can stop this but us.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Imagine defending the American military in 2019 lmfao

And yes I'm close with several people who've been in it or are currently in it
 

DeusOcha

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Osaka, Japan
Imagine defending the American military in 2019 lmfao

And yes I'm close with several people who've been in it or are currently in it

Honestly I am too and it sucks as the majority of which are conservative or conservative-lite being a marine brat and a number of childhood friends being similar military brats to only join up with the military in the end. Is your circle any better? Curious on how anecdotal relations are beyond my own.
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
Honestly I am too and it sucks as the majority of which are conservative or conservative-lite being a marine brat and a number of childhood friends being similar military brats to only join up with the military in the end. Is your circle any better? Curious on how anecdotal relations are beyond my own.

depends on the service and the job imo. there are liberals and some left leaning folks here and there.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
People are now starting to realize just how terrible the US Constitution really is.

It's fucking awful.

Remember, six pentagon officials resigned in December. Likely those who wouldn't yield to a POTUS going full autocrat war criminal dictator.


I consider every Trump supporting American no different than those who supported the Third Reich. I don't believe there is a bottom. I believe every single one of them would wear a white hood in the right circumstance.

I'm including immediate relatives of mine, for what it's worth. These people are straight up evil and only pretend to be as decent as norms require.

If you don't think Trump is itching to use US military force on US soil you're fooling yourselves. Starting with the homeless and refugees, but eventually against those who are 'never Trumpers'.

Do you honestly think Trump's base would drop one percentage point of the electorate if he committed outright genocide and bragged about it? Does anyone?
 
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Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,731
Honestly I am too and it sucks as the majority of which are conservative or conservative-lite being a marine brat and a number of childhood friends being similar military brats to only join up with the military in the end. Is your circle any better? Curious on how anecdotal relations are beyond my own.
I was happy to know other liberal military members during my time in the Air Force but yeah, it's definitely a heavy conservative group otherwise
 

moustascheman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,661
Canada
I sympathize with the people who are basically duped into the military due to their financial situation. The promise of free healthcare/education would definitely be too good to pass up, so there's no wonder why they would join.

But at the same time, you have to understand that the US military as an institution literally exists as a force of imperialism. Their purpose for quite a while has been to kill people overseas in order to maintain US control. This isn't a secret. This also isn't a partisan issue; it's not just republicans who have a cruel, inhumane, and imperialistic foreign policy.

So when people join the military for the benefits, it's a case where they value their own livelihood and financial wellbeing over the lives of innocents overseas. And again, this isn't entirely their fault; much of the blame can and should be placed on those who exploit these people into enlisting. However to completely absolve them of all blame also isn't fair to all the innocents the military has killed over the years. And the thing is, this doesn't make them evil or bad people; it's just something they need to realize, accept, that they're directly contributing to such a monstrous system.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
I sympathize with the people who are basically duped into the military due to their financial situation. The promise of free healthcare/education would definitely be too good to pass up, so there's no wonder why they would join.

But at the same time, you have to understand that the US military as an institution literally exists as a force of imperialism. Their purpose for quite a while has been to kill people overseas in order to maintain US control. This isn't a secret. This also isn't a partisan issue; it's not just republicans who have a cruel, inhumane, and imperialistic foreign policy.

So when people join the military for the benefits, it's a case where they value their own livelihood and financial wellbeing over the lives of innocents overseas. And again, this isn't entirely their fault; much of the blame can and should be placed on those who exploit these people into enlisting. However to completely absolve them of all blame also isn't fair to all the innocents the military has killed over the years. And the thing is, this doesn't make them evil or bad people; it's just something they need to realize, accept, that they're directly contributing to such a monstrous system.

Also worth pointing out that the best benefits (College and Healthcare) are literally things that everyone should have and we could easily afford if we weren't paying to actively maintain them in multiple Middle Eastern wars.
 

Shopolic

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
6,843
As I said before, Trump is only helping Iran's regime these days.
He shows a new face of US government that Iran's regime always wanted to make propaganda about it in these 40 years but couldn't. And now Trump is doing that for them easily, with things like those sanctions and this threats.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,688
Yeah, joining the US military is an unethical act. There's no debate here. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad person--we don't know you or the pressures you're under or the circumstances of your life, and the system is set up to manipulate you--but it does mean you've joined an unethical organisation and willingly become their instrument. It's a bad thing to do though you're likely a decent person otherwise. The fact you might get personal benefits out of it isn't an excuse; it really only makes it worse.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
If any country would take any American citizen hostage they would be nuked in a matter of hours. Those "52 Americans" are obviously spies or something like that.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
As I said before, Trump is only helping Iran's regime these days.
He shows a new face of US government that Iran's regime always wanted to make propaganda about it in these 40 years but couldn't. And now Trump is doing that for them easily, with things like those sanctions and this threats.
its a very old face
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
And I thought the craziest thing I was going to read today was that the first Beazilian terrorist is seeking political asylum in Russia (and that the government waited days to ask to arrest him because obviously he is far right and the media is doing a great job at not coming any close to the word "terrorist".

But then Trump comes and promises to commit war crimes on Twitter.

Edit sorry double post
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,476
Nothing new here. The US has always committed war crimes. Trump is just an idiot for making stupid tweets about it. US ARE the baddies and always have been after WW2.

Let's not forget the last 50 years.
 

zoabs

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
May 7, 2018
1,672
It's all just so exhausting... I can't wait till November and I can't deal with the stress of election night. I hope he gets removed before he gets us deep in another war. But it seems like he's trying to escalate this as fast as he can.
 

Biggavell

Banned
Dec 26, 2019
170
The military specifically targets lower income Americans who lack the opportunity to gain education, financial stabilitiy, or family healthcare coverage otherwise. The system is designed to keep those necessities out of reach of underserved community so they have little recourse but to join up. Don't blame the people who are desperate for opportunities, blame the people keeping our society that way.
Fuck that! Get another job. There is no reason anyone would consciously join the military in this day and age unless they are evil pieces of shit who don't care about what it is doing.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,092

Us base hit in Kenya. Proxy war is a go.

The Mujahideen fighters covertly entered enemy lines, successfully stormed the heavily fortified military base and have now taken effective control of a part of the base," al-Shabab said in a statement.

Sunni terror groups would sooner kill Shiites than Americans. ISIS were straight up summarily executing Shiites they'd capture. Remember how al-Zarqawi (the man the Bush administration hyped up as a member of al-Qaida when he wasn't, and was later the gran daddy of what would become ISIS) was extreme even for Al-Qaida due to how he wanted to (and did) slaughter Shiites?
 
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Katonix

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
790
Mr orange cunt killed a top Iranian general and they will respond to that in 2-3 days.
 

Planet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,358
Why is everyone ignoring that entertaining a worldwide murder machine network has been a series of war crimes for many years now? Killing non-combatants (plus a lot of "collateral damage" deaths) in countries you aren't in war with already violates a ton of laws, but that's accepted because it's the Good Guys™ doing the war crimes here. And those targeted just hate the USA for their freedom.

I can't eat as much as i want to vomit knowing that my country is actively supporting them in providing the quintessential military relay base in Ramstein.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
It's not that.

Violence is built into the American ethos. We tolerate overzealous police killing our own fucking citizens over traffic stops and petty theft, of course, then, there'd be people cheering on the killing of non-Americans overseas. We celebrate the action star, the vigilante, we fetishize strength and the only way we know as men to project it is through sheer force, the only way we know how to command respect is through use of power, the only way we know to recognize respect from others is through subjugation. It's has nothing to do with capitalism.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
For war is 100% capitalism.
Not everything wrong with society is tied to capitalism. The vast majority of pro-war Americans stand to gain nothing financially from any war and they know it. It's about face, pride, nationalism, yadda, yadda, and even if they were poorer for it if they could have some other country they could shit on they'd willingly make that trade. You maybe could argue that news corporations push war because it's profitable for them but again I think that's wrong, it'd be good coverage for them precisely because our society is so toxic. Politicians are like 50/50, they of course stand to make money off investments during wars they themselves can steer contracts for and pick the timing of their own choosing, they definitely get donations from defense contractors but their position for being pro-war is only a politically tenuable position because many members of the public are for it. About the only people I do think are 100% influenced by money in regard to war are defense contractors.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
The military industrial complex in the United States is immoral because of the way it disrupts and destabilizes other nations often as the sword of Capitalist plundering of resources but it's very easy to be indoctrinated into American exceptionalism to some degree if you've been hearing it since you were a child. I am an Air Force veteran and had a career in IT Security, I joined shortly after the economy collapsed in 2008 because frankly I didn't have much of anywhere else to go and at the time sadly I didn't have the same opinions on it as I do now. I wasn't a socialist anti-imperialist like I am now. Don't condemn the lowly service members, condemn the leaders that make the decisions.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
Elf Tower, New Mexico
We are outgunned. And I know that empires have been toppled by those in the same position, but bread and circuses have done a number on our resolve. As long as Amazon, Instagram, Call of Duty and Sunday Night Football keep us complacent....
I think it's more like 'If I do anything I will have take time off work/lose my job which means I/my family/kids will starve to death' than 'Yay, Instagram!'

Which, if you want to start a new conspiracy theory, makes sense when you look at how desperately they try to keep people poor and struggling in this country.