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TheMoon

|OT|
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,778
Video Games
Yes, but that doesn't justify being inconsiderate of western sensibilities.
I wouldn't even just call it "western sensibilities" ...I'd call it modern/current sensibilities reflecting what has been happening in terms of progress around the world. I've seen people claim this is an accurate representation of the time and yada yada but this translation is being made now. Not 25 years ago. Now. (still, the best part is when these people tell you to "take it up with the original game writers" ...like yea that's totally a viable route :D)
Even if you're trying to be super-faithful and not "localizing", there's still a lot of nuance when translating, and even bilingually-raised professional translators with decades of experience get it wrong sometimes. Translations can be products of their time, too, two "perfect" translations done decades apart could differ significantly because replicating the mental feeling of an original work in a translation by necessity is subject to societal changes. I don't even mean in terms of political correctness, I mean in terms of everything. If there was only one correct way to translate something, Google Translate would have been the go-to for translating since a decade ago.
This is why I bang my head against the wall every time this stuff comes up and a bunch of teens keep going on about "perfect" and "faithful" translations when most of them probably never had to translate something from one language to another outside of skating by an exam in school.
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
This is why I bang my head against the wall every time this stuff comes up and a bunch of teens keep going on about "perfect" and "faithful" translations when most of them probably never had to translate something from one language to another outside of skating by an exam in school.

Even single word sentences can be translated a myriad of different ways depending on what's going on when it's being said. Hell, the target language you're translating to could have extra valid words because they have a more varied vocabulary in a "they have 40 different words for snow" kind of way. Going from a language without honorifics to one with honorifics is a whole kettle of fish (I dare a translation literalist to use this expression in another language and see how it goes) that's stymied countless translators who now have to start figuring out just how close specific people are so they can translate something innocuous like "good morning" correctly. There are very very few things where there's only one "correct" way to translate, it's basically just specific (definitely not all) bible passages, and famous quotes being restored into their original language (be they from movies, politicians, whatever), stuff along those lines.
 
Some anti-Era twitter are posting screenshots from this thread and falsely accusing posters of harrassing Tom.

Yeesh their whole account is a mess. RTing One Angry Gamer and all that shit.
My point about his faje apology tweet being terrible still stands, then. Instead of actually learning anything from this experience he decided to just assume victimhood so people would harass others on his behalf. It's terrible, childish behavior and honestlyworse than the original offense.

(hello twitter)
 

FormatCompatible

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,071
My point about his faje apology tweet being terrible still stands, then. Instead of actually learning anything from this experience he decided to just assume victimhood so people would harass others on his behalf. It's terrible, childish behavior and honestlyworse than the original offense.

(hello twitter)
Tbf I don't believe that account is related to Tom, they are just using this situation as a excuse to bad-mouth the people here.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
My point about his faje apology tweet being terrible still stands, then. Instead of actually learning anything from this experience he decided to just assume victimhood so people would harass others on his behalf. It's terrible, childish behavior and honestlyworse than the original offense.

(hello twitter)
Do you think people have the right to harass him and falsely label him as a right-winger?
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
Well, he's claiming otherwise, he says "friends" have been distancing themselves and accusing him falsely.

Responses to his Tweets are basically entirely siding with him?

And while I wouldn't burn bridges with a friend who accidentally said something particularly offensive because they legitimately weren't aware (I certainly believe Tom in this respect), I absolutely would if they unapologetically doubled down on its use, especially for what's effectively a mistranslation he even admits to in his response.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
Responses to his Tweets are basically entirely siding with him?

And while I wouldn't burn bridges with a friend who accidentally said something particularly offensive because they legitimately weren't aware (I certainly believe Tom in this respect), I absolutely would if they unapologetically doubled down on its use, especially for what's effectively a mistranslation he even admits to in his response.
I sure haven't read all the tweets, but he's very aware of the error and is open to what he can do to correct it. He just genuinely thought he was being accurate, however misguided. It wasn't malicious, just misinformed.

And saying things like THIS is not helping:



We should be above throwing around generalizations like this.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
So has it been fixed by the translators or are they sticking to their guns?
I don't know if the programmer has said a word, but the translator is (very) aware of it.


At a glance, no, he hasn't. I stopped following him when I clearly saw where his interests lie, but I can still read his posts.


Against better judgment, I sent DDS a message. Maybe he'll chime in to address the drama and take the heat off of Tom.
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
I played a good while to both games during the week-end, what an absolute pleasure it is to finally have a freaking idea of what I'm doing and progress naturally without needing to read a guide online at every steps.

Works on both bsnes and my Super Nt, will probably end up finishing both games by the end of the weeks at this pace.

Glad to see that Tom seems open to changing the offensive word, now to see if DDS agrees, which I doubt considering they auto-blocked anything ERA. Hopefully something can be done.
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
And saying things like THIS is not helping:



We should be above throwing around generalizations like this.


The DDS Translation group's right wing proclivities are well established, and Tom was definitely being obtuse about it for a while, my personal hunch being for reasons alluded to earlier in this thread.

I'll grant that a private reach-out would have been a better place to start, but even so defusing this would have been pretty straightforward. I've made similar faux pas throughout my life and a mea culpa goes a long way.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
The DDS Translation group's right wing proclivities are well established, and Tom was definitely being obtuse about it for a while, my personal hunch being for reasons alluded to earlier in this thread.

I'll grant that a private reach-out would have been a better place to start, but even so defusing this would have been pretty straightforward. I've made similar faux pas throughout my life and a mea culpa goes a long way.
Saying he 'delights' in this was flat-out uncalled for.
 

Zaber

Alt account
Banned
Sep 11, 2019
906
^Agreed. That's shitty, no matter how you look at it.

In some of the twitter conversations, he was willing to listen to suggestions and even seemed receptive to them.

He might have made a translation that offended some people, but I still doubt that it was with malicious intent. Pointing it out to him is okay, but not the way it was done. That people here can't see that is scary. I can't stand either right wings or leftists. They can never admit to being wrong, and they don't care about the consequences of their actions.

Edit: Every person isn't the same. Some actions don't have the same effect on different people. That's something I tell kids as a teacher.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
It's absolutely amazing to me that people are going off on a god damn translator for translating the text that was there. Insensitive or not, blame the era or the original games text. Is it bad faith to not try to translate the word into something less insensitive? Maybe..but labeling someone as alt-right and hateful is inappropriate and wrong. The translator did nothing wrong.
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
Saying he 'delights' in this was flat-out uncalled for.

That's about DDS, not Tom.

It's absolutely amazing to me that people are going off on a god damn translator for translating the text that was there. Insensitive or not, blame the era or the original games text. Is it bad faith to not try to translate the word into something less insensitive? Maybe..but labeling someone as alt-right and hateful is inappropriate and wrong. The translator did nothing wrong.

As established previously in the thread, that translation is literally incorrect.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
That's about DDS, not Tom.



As established previously in the thread, that translation is literally incorrect.
Granted I'm just getting up to speed on this topic, but the translated word used was she-male correct? What was the Japanese word used? Or better yet, what is it supposed to be??
 

univbee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
213
He says "the translator's willful ignorance". He is clearly and directly saying that about Tom.

This is true, though (again, see earlier in the thread), Tom wasn't budging on his original incorrect choice. I'll give you that it's strongly worded, but it's factually correct.

Granted I'm just getting up to speed on this topic, but the translated word used was she-male correct? What was the Japanese word used? Or better yet, what is it supposed to be??

The Japanese word was "newhalf" and it was translated as "tranny" which is a much stronger slur than "newhalf" is (which is still a slur, to be clear).
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
This is true, though (again, see earlier in the thread), Tom wasn't budging on his original incorrect choice. I'll give you that it's strongly worded, but it's factually correct.



The Japanese word was "newhalf" and it was translated as "tranny" which is a much stronger slur than "newhalf" is (which is still a slur, to be clear).

Okay. I get it. It seems a better word could have been used for sure.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Yes, but that doesn't justify being inconsiderate of western sensibilities.
Eh I don't really agree with this - especially in the context of a fan translation which doesn't have to think how much the final product is marketable. At the end of the days here we are talking about a 1994 game made for the Japanese domestic audience. A translation, I think, should be a "layer" to help the English-speaking community understand the original work without altering the content (that's very theoretical of course, as every language is deeply connected to its culture - more pragmatically, "altering the content as little as possible"), letting it shine for its merits or (in this case) fall for its own faults.

At the same time, what Univbee said regarding how faithful a translation can be is very true. I don't speak Japanese (and indeed English isn't even my mother tongue), but taking for good what he said on the nuances of the original Japanese word...
It's definitely not a nice term but it doesn't have the underlying "I think you're subhuman and would murder you if I had the chance" that the word ultimately used has. It reminds me of a mostly-solid English fan subtitle file for a French movie where a white "ghetto-like" guy used a French term that was basically like "brutha" but the fansubs outright used the N-word. The translation is accurate in terms of meaning but not in terms of severity, which is an important distinction.

Even if you're trying to be super-faithful and not "localizing", there's still a lot of nuance when translating, and even bilingually-raised professional translators with decades of experience get it wrong sometimes. Translations can be products of their time, too, two "perfect" translations done decades apart could differ significantly because replicating the mental feeling of an original work in a translation by necessity is subject to societal changes. I don't even mean in terms of political correctness, I mean in terms of everything. If there was only one correct way to translate something, Google Translate would have been the go-to for translating since a decade ago.
... I think the criticism should have been along the lines of "Look, your choice of words here doesn't really convey the original meaning, making the phrase more offensive than it was in Japanese", without implying a) bad faith on Tom's part; b) the need to "sanitize" an old game (which as said isn't what a "pure" translation should do IMHO. Of course it would be apt in a ROM hack with another focus - that is, free a good game from its problematic elements).
 

aidan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
Can anyone comment on the length/difficulty of these games (and the first one on SNES)?
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
EDIT: you know what nvm, i thought tom's actions were disappointing but i know the dude is depressed and wasn't in the best state of mind to make the right decisions considering his past tweets. hg101 innacurately painting him as a rightwinger was just oil on fire. said person should have just clarified they meant DDS.
 
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Broken Hope

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,316
User Banned (3 Days): Derailing emulation discussion with piracy accusation
Interesting that most people playing this translation will be pirating the games since I can't imagine there's many people on here owning a Japanese only released game. Is piracy somehow allowed when it's for old games on old systems? Or do we just pretend everyone has a legit game that they purchased and rom dumped?
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
Interesting that most people playing this translation will be pirating the games since I can't imagine there's many people on here owning a Japanese only released game. Is piracy somehow allowed when it's for old games on old systems? Or do we just pretend everyone has a legit game that they purchased and rom dumped?

->
Homebrew and Emulation

While software piracy is never acceptable, emulation is legal and discussions about it are welcome. As long as a hack can be used for legitimate homebrew and/or legal emulation it can be discussed here, and those discussions should not be derailed by piracy concerns. Do not enter a thread about homebrew or emulation and conflate the subject with piracy.
www.resetera.com

General Guide to ResetEra

General Guide to ResetEra Last updated on May 3, 2021. Mission Statement Since its founding in late 2017, ResetEra has been an inviting bonfire at the crossroads of the gaming industry. Our goal is to provide a modern platform where enthusiasts and industry professionals alike will want to...
 

Meatwad

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,653
USA
Interesting that most people playing this translation will be pirating the games since I can't imagine there's many people on here owning a Japanese only released game. Is piracy somehow allowed when it's for old games on old systems? Or do we just pretend everyone has a legit game that they purchased and rom dumped?

Ah this classic bit of trolling
 

tinbonk

Member
Jul 13, 2019
6
The fact that this release is so marred with controversy makes me extremely sad. I was looking forward to this translation for many months, constantly checking DDS' twitter for updates. I'm a huge Goemon fan. I'm not going to say Tom did nothing wrong. But I'm not going to say he was wrong to get defensive either. Things could have been handled better on both sides. I sincerely hope Tom doesn't quit the translation community due to all this

Honestly wasn't trolling but now I know the stance is just to pretend everyone is legit. I'll leave the thread.
Obviously not everyone here is legit. But you can't prove we're not either. And whether we are or not, it doesn't add much to the conversation to point out that some of us are pirates.
 

OldGamer

Member
Jul 6, 2019
389
Eh I don't really agree with this - especially in the context of a fan translation which doesn't have to think how much the final product is marketable. At the end of the days here we are talking about a 1994 game made for the Japanese domestic audience. A translation, I think, should be a "layer" to help the English-speaking community understand the original work without altering the content (that's very theoretical of course, as every language is deeply connected to its culture - more pragmatically, "altering the content as little as possible"), letting it shine for its merits or (in this case) fall for its own faults.

At the same time, what Univbee said regarding how faithful a translation can be is very true. I don't speak Japanese (and indeed English isn't even my mother tongue), but taking for good what he said on the nuances of the original Japanese word..

That's more towards my general localizing philosophy as well. I still think leaving it as "newhalf" may have been the better course of action. Sure it has foreign origin, but it sounds like an English word and isn't going to set off anyone's "Oh, they just got lazy translating this" reflex. Sure, it's not in the official English dictionaries, but plenty of slang isn't. Even though "newhalf" is hardly the most enlightened term, in this case, the blame can be laid squarely on the game and not the translator.

But also in this particular case, since using "newhalf" specifically is hardly necessary for making the joke / statement work, "Trans" or even "Cross Dresser" could work. In the end, the whole point of it is the NPC saying "I am actually not a woman. Should I tell my boyfriend?" Might not be ideal for the die-hard purist translator, but all that is really needed is the point of the statement to come across without being unnecessarily derogatory.
 

demi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,836
Do we think Tom already did the translation for GG4 and we're just waiting on DDS to hack the ROM?

Based on what we were shown and told, Tom did all the Goemon games (even Ebisumaru spinoff), it's just up to DDS to get the hacking/graphics in place. But with all this going on now I don't know the situation with them so :\
 

Deleted member 26768

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,765
Interesting that most people playing this translation will be pirating the games since I can't imagine there's many people on here owning a Japanese only released game. Is piracy somehow allowed when it's for old games on old systems? Or do we just pretend everyone has a legit game that they purchased and rom dumped?
what even is the point of this post, nobody loses by you pirating a 25 year old game that hasn't been re-released.
 

1upsuper

Member
Jan 30, 2018
5,489
Interesting that most people playing this translation will be pirating the games since I can't imagine there's many people on here owning a Japanese only released game. Is piracy somehow allowed when it's for old games on old systems? Or do we just pretend everyone has a legit game that they purchased and rom dumped?
Are you a fan of Goemon or are you just here to make a scene and then leave once your work is done?
 

tinbonk

Member
Jul 13, 2019
6
User Banned (2 weeks): Antagonizing Other Users Over a Serious Topic
All Tom did was translate a slur into a slur. Newhalf IS a slur. Due to human error, Tom's translation ended up being more offensive than the original text, but the original text WAS offensive, do not forget that. I give Tom the benefit of the doubt when he says he didn't realize how much more offensive the t-slur was than newhalf.

People are criticizing Tom for being defensive. But why would he not be defensive? The outrage mob is at his throat, demonizing him and treating him like trash. I know most of you here don't act like that, but keep in mind what twitter is like. I'm not surprised he's chosen to withdraw himself from the platform.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,032
UK
Interesting that most people playing this translation will be pirating the games since I can't imagine there's many people on here owning a Japanese only released game. Is piracy somehow allowed when it's for old games on old systems? Or do we just pretend everyone has a legit game that they purchased and rom dumped?

I can't believe how sad someone has to be to make a post like this

I mean, no one should pirate games, but getting upset people are stealing games Konami will never make money from again is ultra low stakes