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foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,549
YouTube creator red bard has put out a video talking about localization and to make sure to hammer into your head that there is no translation without localization and that all translation is up to interpretation.
And also most of the time claims of censorship in dubs and subtitles are really just bad faith arguments or just straight up ignorance.
 
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Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,602
Saw this yesterday, really good video. Sadly the "Literal Translation" people will never go away.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,394
Very informative vid, and the links to other topical vids is real gud.

Thanks for highlighting it, OP.
 

djinn

Member
Nov 16, 2017
15,726
The amount is time and effort that goes into localising a translation is incredibly underappreciated. Nice video highlighting this, hope it changes some minds.
 

Bjorn

Member
Feb 11, 2018
963
Denmark
Wish there was more focus on localization in general. It's one of those underappreciated fields along with QA, that can make or break a game/video. That credit part at the end hit close to home.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Interesting tip, thanks. Somewhat characteristically, I don't have the time to watch it, because I'm chasing a deadline on Sunday, but I'll definitely watch it later.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Localization is actually really hard to do well. You run into lines all the time that are perfectly casual in their language, but takes a lot of thought to localize properly.

Generally you can start with a literal translation as a base, but you have to go over it again and smooth it over so that the translated lines sound natural in their target language. It takes a good understanding of both the source language's culture and the target language's culture to do that.

If you don't do all that, you get something like the Persona 5 translation, where not only is the English awkward in general, but you can also clearly see how many common Japanese phrases were translated directly into these very mechanical sounding English phrases, with no regard for how weird it sounds in that state.
 

Shining Star

Banned
May 14, 2019
4,458
The amount is time and effort that goes into localising a translation is incredibly underappreciated. Nice video highlighting this, hope it changes some minds.

The problem is that so much of it is done incredibly fast and cheap, especially with currently airing anime but with niche games too.
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
If you don't do all that, you get something like the Persona 5 translation, where not only is the English awkward in general, but you can also clearly see how many common Japanese phrases were translated directly into these very mechanical sounding English phrases, with no regard for how weird it sounds in that state.

It can't be helped.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
Watched this the day it was posted and liked how many people across the related industries she was able to talk to and being able to reference related videos. I really enjoy her content in general and this was no different.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Must be an american problem because most of the world speaks another language and therefore knows how hard or easy tranalating something can be.
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,924
If you don't do all that, you get something like the Persona 5 translation, where not only is the English awkward in general, but you can also clearly see how many common Japanese phrases were translated directly into these very mechanical sounding English phrases, with no regard for how weird it sounds in that state.
Don't say anything unnecessary.
 

Arttemis

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
6,188
Literal translations not only sound awful, but lose immense amount of context to linguistic peculiarities and differing sociocultural foundations between audiences.

This story is also a great read. Man, I'd loved to have seen his localizations MGS2 and 3.

Polygon: The bizarre, true story of Metal Gear Solid's English translation.
www.polygon.com

The bizarre, true story of Metal Gear Solid’s English translation

Written by the man who did it
 
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OP
OP
foxuzamaki

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,549
Localization is actually really hard to do well. You run into lines all the time that are perfectly casual in their language, but takes a lot of thought to localize properly.

Generally you can start with a literal translation as a base, but you have to go over it again and smooth it over so that the translated lines sound natural in their target language. It takes a good understanding of both the source language's culture and the target language's culture to do that.

If you don't do all that, you get something like the Persona 5 translation, where not only is the English awkward in general, but you can also clearly see how many common Japanese phrases were translated directly into these very mechanical sounding English phrases, with no regard for how weird it sounds in that state.
Guess this explains how persona became THE weeb game
 

DanSensei

Member
Nov 15, 2017
1,212
Localization is actually really hard to do well. You run into lines all the time that are perfectly casual in their language, but takes a lot of thought to localize properly.

Generally you can start with a literal translation as a base, but you have to go over it again and smooth it over so that the translated lines sound natural in their target language. It takes a good understanding of both the source language's culture and the target language's culture to do that.

If you don't do all that, you get something like the Persona 5 translation, where not only is the English awkward in general, but you can also clearly see how many common Japanese phrases were translated directly into these very mechanical sounding English phrases, with no regard for how weird it sounds in that state.
Persona 5 has maybe the worst translation moment of the last 20 years. The coffee shop guy introduces himself and one of the players choices is "take care of me." That is NOT how どうぞよろしく (I haven't played the Japanese version but of course it was that originally) should be translated. It's "nice to meet you," and to whoever thought that translation was ok, I say "you're a hundred years too early to be translating."
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Persona 5 has maybe the worst translation moment of the last 20 years. The coffee shop guy introduces himself and one of the players choices is "take care of me." That is NOT how どうぞよろしく (I haven't played the Japanese version but of course it was that originally) should be translated. It's "nice to meet you," and to whoever thought that translation was ok, I say "you're a hundred years too early to be translating."
It's one example of how the translation is unusually direct. "Please take care of me" is how that line is often fan-translated in anime, but it's too direct a translation because it's a phrase that no one ever says in English in that context. You're right in that in a proper localization, something like "nice to meet you" gets the correct vibe across more accurately and naturally.

It's weird because the Persona 4 localization was really well done, and all other aspects of P5's production was top notch. I was particularly impressed at how almost all of the voice actors sounded like real people instead of caricatures, which is how they often sound in anime.

It almost makes me wonder if p5's localization was deliberately light for whatever reason. Persona is unique among jrpgs because it is "the weeb game", as mentioned. A large part of its audience is very familiar with anime and are the sort of people who want things as Japanese as possible, such as wanting Japanese voices and such (which was an argument that came about before p5's release). Regardless of whether or not you agree with that sentiment, I feel like the people localizing p5 were probably under a lot of pressure to not alienate large parts of its audience with localization decisions, and may have felt pressure to be more light-handed about it. If that's the case, I disagree with that decision, but I wouldn't crucify them for it because it may have just been a deliberate decision from whoever was running the localization, rather than incompetence on the part of the localization team.
 

J75

Member
Sep 29, 2018
6,595
Haven't played it so I was wondering if Persona 5 Royal fixed all of those super literal phrases and localization? Because man, that original game was rough.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Gonna play a bit of Devil's advocate here, but from what I've seen, a "translation" is basically "Hey, can you tell me what they just said?", and then you do just that, and better translations do a better job of relating it (using their own skill as a storyteller). But you play with fire as you go farther down that road, like Squaresoft's Ted Woolsey was a great translator, but everyone remembers that "spoony bard" line. Working Designs was great translators, but they just had to drop in a Bill Clinton joke.

Somewhere along the line, these sorts of "translation errors" got explained away with "Oh, but that's not a translation error, because this is not a translation, this is a localization. A translation tells you exactly what they just said, but a localization is an entirely new product, made by me, based on that thing that you mistakenly thought I was translating. And since I am the author now, that means that I have made no errors. I have free reign to insert as many of those lines as I want." Which invariably leads the fan/customer to say "Well fuck you then, and fuck your brand of localization." And no amount of internet videos defining/explaining the terminology will convince the fan/customer that they didn't just see what they know they just saw (even if they don't have the words for it).

Everybody has their own triggers, whether that's Robotech chopping up three different anime to make one larger story, or Sailor Moon's repeated erasure of LGBT characters (they erased Kunzite and Zoisite years before they erased Haruka and Michiru), or some Gamergator feeling threatened by being personally called out by the translator in the middle of watching an anime. And it always pushes them into this same conversation. It pushes them to say that you're just like 4Kids, because 4Kids was a notorious offender, and you can't say "Oh, that was different" just because they're a more extreme example of the same thing that you're doing.

At the end of the video, there was a quote from a translator saying that a translator is equally as important as the original author, and I know quite well that a good or bad translation can make or break a translated story (I've seen some great stuff that was just brutalized by an inadequate translation, and some crap that was significantly elevated and made enjoyable by a great translation), but, isn't that kind of... a really arrogant thing to say? IMO, the translator should usually (with some exceptions) try to work in service to the original story, and should give as much credit as possible to the original author, even if that's just lip service. That's just the respectful thing to do.

And when a particular line doesn't go over too well (one in 10,000,000, and it's the only one that gets noticed), if you don't want to argue all day about why you made that creative choice (because that can be Sisyphean), try to dismiss the conversation with "Sorry, my bad. These things happen when you're writing scripts all day long. Not every line is going to be a winner" instead of explaining how "localization" means that there are no translation errors, and then maybe people won't call you 4Kids. Obviously this approach won't work for everyone, but I think it's the best.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
At the end of the video, there was a quote from a translator saying that a translator is equally as important as the original author, and I know quite well that a good or bad translation can make or break a translated story (I've seen some great stuff that was just brutalized by an inadequate translation, and some crap that was significantly elevated and made enjoyable by a great translation), but, isn't that kind of... a really arrogant thing to say? IMO, the translator should usually (with some exceptions) try to work in service to the original story, and should give as much credit as possible to the original author, even if that's just lip service. That's just the respectful thing to do.

And when a particular line doesn't go over too well (one in 10,000,000, and it's the only one that gets noticed), if you don't want to argue all day about why you made that creative choice (because that can be Sisyphean), try to dismiss the conversation with "Sorry, my bad. These things happen when you're writing scripts all day long. Not every line is going to be a winner" instead of explaining how "localization" means that there are no translation errors, and then maybe people won't call you 4Kids. Obviously this approach won't work for everyone, but I think it's the best.

I agree with you. While translation is crucial in whether a product will be enjoyed by people who consume it in the target language, I wouldn't honestly dream of saying "guys, I made this. This was my idea, I thought of this."
I'm fairly proud of some of my translations which required a lot of creativity and thought, but you're always inspired by the original work and (IMO) should stay as close to the spirit of it as possible.
 

MadraptorMan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
946
Niigata, Japan
I work in localization for mostly games (JP -> ENG), and there is absolutely always a balance to be struck between the source and what makes sense in the target language. "Transcreation" seems to be a more common things these days, too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,145
Finland
Must be an american problem because most of the world speaks another language and therefore knows how hard or easy tranalating something can be.
Lol no, it doesn't work like that all.

Most of Europeans for example speak English as a second language but that just makes a lot of people think along the lines of "hey this is really easy" and think they could do as well as a professional. Speak to any translators about their experiences - this is a very common experience for them.
 

Zolbrod

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,070
Osaka, Japan
Persona 5 has maybe the worst translation moment of the last 20 years. The coffee shop guy introduces himself and one of the players choices is "take care of me." That is NOT how どうぞよろしく (I haven't played the Japanese version but of course it was that originally) should be translated. It's "nice to meet you," and to whoever thought that translation was ok, I say "you're a hundred years too early to be translating."

This came up in a Twitter thread about P5 (for obvious reasons) so I decided to look up what the MC actually says in Japanese, and it's NOT a form of "Yoroshiku".
He actually says "世話になりたい", which IS a weird thing to say out of the blue.

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So the English being unnatural here is kind of the point, and it's not really that bad of a translation, although you can argue that it failed in its intention if the audience misconstrued it.
I personally would've gone for "I need a place to crash" or something.
 

Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,379
Yeah, context is a big problem a lot of the time. I love getting spreadsheets of phrases with not context.

If you are trying to say we are horrendously underpaid, I agree. I was asked to translate a book for 80 € once, within a month no less
Some of the stuff people ask for is just ridiculous isn't it? Like, 'I paid you $5, so you'd better redo this 16x because I ran it by my friend who is a native speaker of "language X" I and I totally know what I'm talking about.' Riiiiggghhhtt....
 

Jakten

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,764
Devil World, Toronto
Sadly low wages is a problem for translators of all fields, not just in video gaming.

It's usually expected in a really tight deadline as well because no one ever thinks about it ahead of time. It's always a last minute decision near the end of the project completely removed from any real communication with the writers instead of something incorporated with the process, which doesn't really help with making any of the translations come of naturally. It's just the worst all around.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
It's usually expected in a really tight deadline as well because no one ever thinks about it ahead of time. It's always a last minute decision near the end of the project completely removed from any real communication with the writers instead of something incorporated with the process, which doesn't really help with making any of the translations come of naturally. It's just the worst all around.
Yup, it's like documentation in software development lol
 
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foxuzamaki

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,549
It's usually expected in a really tight deadline as well because no one ever thinks about it ahead of time. It's always a last minute decision near the end of the project completely removed from any real communication with the writers instead of something incorporated with the process, which doesn't really help with making any of the translations come of naturally. It's just the worst all around.
It being more last minute should be more demand for higher pay if anything
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,062
From my own experiences in language learning I know that the skill needed to go from "other language I'm reading -> something my brain understands" is incredibly different from "something my brain understands -> some other language in writing". I'm pretty good at the former but not so great at the latter. But I'm also not anywhere near the best writer in the world (in my language or other) so it is easy for me to understand how complex the localization problem is.

I think my common pet peeves with this sort of thing come down to things like proper nouns being changed, that sort of thing. Sometimes it seems like that can be due to outside direction rather than the folk doing the localization, and while annoying I understand there isn't a lot to be done about it.