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Trans identity in an ideal future
- Thread starter TheMango55
- Start date
i think the OP is inherently a bit of a flawed idea- not meaning in a bad way- but they being trans isn't a gender. You are male or female- and you are also trans- now hopefully with societal acceptance that won't really matter but there are certain things that may never change (people who don't want to have surgery completely, talking about naturally conceiving children, etc) so no matter how good technology gets and no matter how accepting society becomes... people will still identity as "trans".
Hopefully it won't be a stigma, although I still think that is a ways off sadly. I think something many will struggle to get their head around are people who doesn't necessarily want gender reassignment surgery or still have heavily masculine or feminine features while identifying as the other. Basically I think society will either question "well now you can get surgery, why didn't you get your bits changed" AND "wel if you identify as a woman then why do you have facial hair" and other such offensive nonsense.
I don't know if that changes anytime soon :(
Hopefully it won't be a stigma, although I still think that is a ways off sadly. I think something many will struggle to get their head around are people who doesn't necessarily want gender reassignment surgery or still have heavily masculine or feminine features while identifying as the other. Basically I think society will either question "well now you can get surgery, why didn't you get your bits changed" AND "wel if you identify as a woman then why do you have facial hair" and other such offensive nonsense.
I don't know if that changes anytime soon :(
Probably more of a non-thing, I guess? Like it's a factoid about you, but no real identity. If nobody cares, 'trans-' as a prefix or as something 'you are' would probably fade out over time.
The discrimination and need to fight is a large part of why these sub-groups/cultures, and thus; identities, formed in the first place, and is a large part of what keeps them tight-knit.
This is assuming it gets completely normalised, which I think and hope it will.. But if the recent rise in nationalism, the far-right, neo-nazis and xenophobia in general isn't a temporary thing? Could be different. :\
The discrimination and need to fight is a large part of why these sub-groups/cultures, and thus; identities, formed in the first place, and is a large part of what keeps them tight-knit.
This is assuming it gets completely normalised, which I think and hope it will.. But if the recent rise in nationalism, the far-right, neo-nazis and xenophobia in general isn't a temporary thing? Could be different. :\
The ultimate, for me, is one where sex can be changed "at will" and gender conformity is a thing of the past. Where people are treated like people, equally across all minorities, sexual, racial, and otherwise.
Also I want a removable extendo-penis to beat down bigots with.
Also I want a removable extendo-penis to beat down bigots with.
I can easily imagine a future where there is a test at say, 5-10 weeks gestation that would determine there is a "misalignment" between gender and physical sex. Then the question is whether the gender or physical sex can be altered to correct the misalignment. It is certainly possible to block the effects of testosterone on a developing embryo to allow the default female physical sex development to occur (as much as there can be with a Y chromosome, anyway), but this won't create a fully reproductively capable female sex body. Would it be possible to genetically edit the sex chromosomes to allow for full physical sex development? Or would it be easier to alter whatever brain development determines gender? For an embryo I'd imagine it would be a philosophical question for some, simply a choice based on which ever path is easier/cheaper/more reliable, and anathema for others. I don't think we are anywhere close to truly understanding gender identity formation and development or really if it is even a discrete thing in the first place.
More likely, in my opinion, is the ability to alter external genitalia (or simulate it in VR) to the point where physical sexual identity is pretty meaningless and sexual attraction decouples from sex to a large extent. Physical hedonistic experiences on the one hand (I fucked the polar bear!) and finding your "soulmate", regardless of gender or sex, on the other. Ergo media depiction of intersex, trans, or whatever-people (inter-species?) will carry no stigma as the physical body will be largely disposable/customizable.
I don't know, a lot of responses in this thread seem like we're imagining the "2008 post-racial America" but for sexuality and gender. I feel like there's also undertones of a nature v nurture debate of gender identity and sexuality.
Very true. I think we are still scratching at the surface of "nature vs nurture" as well as "brain chemistry versus body chemistry". There very well could be some fundamental breakthroughs that erase some of the lines, or at least allow for manipulation of the results in ways inconceivable for us now.
So then the question becomes; should we allow for 'technomagical' solutions to current issues or should sci-fi deal with todays problems in a limited context using the current day understanding of things? Is sexual/gender identity or preference a choice, an inherent genetic combination that can be altered, or a cultural/nurture construct that be manipulated. In order to envision a future that deals with these concepts you have to decide where you sit in relation to these things so you have internal consistency. Otherwise it is a simplistic "fix all the gays" or "everyone is gender fluid and anything goes" future that probably doesn't feel satisfying from a storytelling perspective (in my opinion) as it handwaves the complexity of the issue, how technology works with our current understanding, and society would react to the changes enabled by technology.
You know editing the SRY gene on to an X chromosome or removing it from a Y chromosome would actually be pretty simple, well as simple as gen editing goes anyway. Sex differentiation is genetically really flimsy. It would definitely be way easier then editing out something as complex as identity, where we don't even know the origin of.
There is also no known way to detect it without talking to people. That may change in the future, but as a complex trait there may be an abundance of factors that can change it. There is a distinct possibility that we may never know.
The actual medical advances that seem to be possible in the near future, usually used for the cyberpunk genre, is the creation of gonads, erectile tissue for trans men and a womb for trans woman.
Also probably ways to tailor hormone treatment better for non binary people and in general more research into how secondary sex charactteristics actually develop during puberty, first or second
There is also no known way to detect it without talking to people. That may change in the future, but as a complex trait there may be an abundance of factors that can change it. There is a distinct possibility that we may never know.
The actual medical advances that seem to be possible in the near future, usually used for the cyberpunk genre, is the creation of gonads, erectile tissue for trans men and a womb for trans woman.
Also probably ways to tailor hormone treatment better for non binary people and in general more research into how secondary sex charactteristics actually develop during puberty, first or second
Personally, I'm just utterly uninterested in the nature v nurture question of gender identity and sexuality.
Regardless, I think it's unethical to use future technology to try to alter another person's (or fetus') sex, identity, and preference without their consent. Empathetic solutions and procedures should be provided when an individual comes forth and says they are feeling gender dysphoria, for example, not predetermined by AI and whatever current eugenics analysis is trending before birth.
Gender identity is a discrete, real thing. Neither it not sexual orientation are a choice.
User Banned (permanent): Transphobic rhetoric over a series of posts; previous severe infractions related bigotry and prejudice
This is a good and important point. The problem comes when/if there is a way to realign gender and sex early on. Is being trans a "treatable problem" at that point, like cystic fibrosis, or a lifestyle choice? Certain members of the deaf community resist treating deafness in their children. Parents can and do provide consent for their children, so if the most effective solution to a gender/sex discrepancy is in-utero or early childhood therapy, would you deny it to someone? Kinda reminds me of some of the plots on "Orville" with their sex reassignment society (though they never really discuss gender, presumably the procedure fixes this?).
In the context of what crsip could potentially do, I guess anything goes.
brain without emotions for soldier purposes , brains with higher iq.
but I dunno , crisp for all we know might not advance as soon say the life of the planet.
This is my issue with a nature v nurture debate on gender identity and sexuality because it inevitably gets framed as an issue to be solved or a personal "lifestyle choice". I think the reality of it is science is never going to be able to tease apart the innumerable epigentic variables that shape our personal identity. Personal identity is not a lifestyle choice it's just who we are.
What about born cis people (is that what we're called? Pardon my terminology here) dating trans people? I mean, that's a pretty touchy subject right now and I feel the conversation just isn't there.
Is the ideal outcome that a fully transitioned trans person would be virtually indistinguishable from a cis person in all aspects? I know nothing about the subject, so please educate me.
Is the ideal outcome that a fully transitioned trans person would be virtually indistinguishable from a cis person in all aspects? I know nothing about the subject, so please educate me.
Or editing the genes so that the body matches the brain prior to birth.
In an ideal future, anything is possible.
Hypothetically, in an ideal future no one will be born deaf. This will be a net benefit, but currently there are deaf communities which embrace deafness as part of their identity, their culture. They might be offended by this hypothetical future I am proposing.
Lifestyle choice in the sense that someone (parents) are choosing to allow a child with a known possibility of being trans to live in the body of the opposite sex. Of course this presupposes the detection test is at all accurate with good sensitivity and specificity, something like a quad screen trisomy 21 pre-natal test today. If the test is positive and the sex reassignment procedure is available and safe in utero, would NOT doing it be anything other than a choice to permit someone to be trans who doesn't need to be? I'm straying far out of my lane at this point, but I don't consider being trans the same as being homosexual. The former is a biological "error" that can be repaired while the later is simply a quality of existence that doesn't require anything other than social acceptance (even if both end up have underlying biological factors that could be manipulated).
But I agree, I don't think we will ever reach a point where any of this is possible (detection in utero or sex reassignment) so keeping the focus on cultural tolerance with safe medical treatment as an adolescent/young adult is probably much more likely in the near to mid range future.
I imagine that is the best case outcome for some. But then there are also gender fluid folks that might not want to be locked into a specific sex body. Depends on how the tech works. If it is as simple as popping a "grow a vagina!" pill for the day then I suspect LOTS of people who would never consider themselves trans or gender fluid would at least try it out. Or docking your brain case into a male android body today a female one tomorrow and a spider the day after that. Freeing us from hardwired physical forms is probably going to be EXTREMELY liberating in lots of ways. Our body chemistry informs our thoughts far more than many people realize.
The Culture book series was always very interesting to me regarding this subject. For those who don't know, it's science fiction depicting a culture of humanoid aliens where people are easily able to live for hundreds of years, with potential to be practically immortal if they want. People are also able to change their sex freely if they wish. It's considered completely normal and it's even very common, which makes sense because if you could do it without any possible problems and society taught from childhood that it's completely normal and fully acceptable, a lot of people would probably at the very least try it. Total gender equality also makes it so that you don't have to care about any possible discrimination.
That kind of future is obviously very far though and probably a pipe dream, but I'd consider it pretty much the ideal situation.
That kind of future is obviously very far though and probably a pipe dream, but I'd consider it pretty much the ideal situation.
I'm sorry but there's no such thing as a gendered brain, the differences that exist are negligible and mainly deal with grey matter density. Like sexual orientation, it's not something that you scan the brain. Both are deeply personal and complicated matters that ideally should be listened and helped when someone is presenting feelings of gender dysphoria. There is also the matter of non binary and gender fluid people that do not identify with either gender, and changing their physical sex prior to birth is very dubious in terms of consent.
It all starts with the brain. With enough medical advancement, humans will be able to decipher a person's thoughts, feelings, and gender identity with technology.
Ehhhhh..... A lot of people are making A LOT of bad assumptions about identity development and prescribing unethical directions of future technology which is based on no (tenuous at best) scientific evidence...
Edit: Also why do you assume it all starts with the brain?
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OP
OP
Editing fetuses in the womb is an entirely different discussion with an entirely different set of issues that this thread isn't about at all.
Also the thread isn't about non-binary or intersex people. Of course they would continue to exist separately as an identity. They are already a different identity than trans.
Also the thread isn't about non-binary or intersex people. Of course they would continue to exist separately as an identity. They are already a different identity than trans.
I don't know about the ideal. But it would be nice to not worry about being verbally harassed or even assaulted. It would be nice to not have to come out and have it be something that could risk fundamentally undermining your life. To not have job applications rejected when they see you changed your name from a masculine to a feminine one.
I think in the future being trans would ideally be something unremarkable, but not hidden.
I think in the future being trans would ideally be something unremarkable, but not hidden.
I would describe this as a (tenuous) philosophical assumption, not a fact. In fact, the whole idea that a person's identity (not talking about gender identity here, but the ability you have to be "the same" person all the time) comes down to the brain is pretty tenuous. There are a lot more factors here. But this is very OT.
Back OT, I would say it's hard to guess what our future identity categories will look like, since we're pretty trapped in our current ones. In an ideal future, I guess I would just hope that they're categories that don't make anyone feel excluded/work for everyone, whatever that would look like. I am cis so I don't want to fill in too much what I think that should/will look like, since I'm probably not the best person to ask. Just trying to express general love and support I guess!
I bet in the future they are going to reject applicants based on how much of their body is augmented or cyborg'd up if we live that Cyberpunk life. The whole body modification thingy in Cyberpunk is definitely going to be a very crazy thing in regards of monitoring, control and population
I apologize in advance if I'm not addressing the topic in the manner the OP intended, but I think it's an interesting question. A lot of the struggles I have are not based around self-judgment per se, but worries about being accepted.
What would a trans-accepting world look like to me?
* Nobody would worry about using the wrong pronoun on me, because dealing with trans people would be so common and accepted that addressing us appropriately would be the default. If somebody wanted to denigrate me on the basis of my gender identity they'd have to actively go out of their way to do so.
* People would understand the difference between "not caring" and "accepting". I don't want a world where people commonly make ludicrous statements like "I don't see gender".
* I would be able to go out in public wearing jeans, a T-shirt, and no makeup and not be addressed as "sir". I don't speak for anybody else, but my gender doesn't fluctuate based on what I'm wearing.
* In general, there's a lot of overlap for me between an ideal world for trans people and a world that accepts and respects women. I know this is a really big stretch, but you know what would be a perfect world for me? A world where a man, even a stranger, could come up to me and say "cute earrings" without it coming across as their coming on to me. One of the most frustrating things about cis men for me is the difficulty they have distinguishing between looking good and being a sex object.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts off the top of my head.
What would a trans-accepting world look like to me?
* Nobody would worry about using the wrong pronoun on me, because dealing with trans people would be so common and accepted that addressing us appropriately would be the default. If somebody wanted to denigrate me on the basis of my gender identity they'd have to actively go out of their way to do so.
* People would understand the difference between "not caring" and "accepting". I don't want a world where people commonly make ludicrous statements like "I don't see gender".
* I would be able to go out in public wearing jeans, a T-shirt, and no makeup and not be addressed as "sir". I don't speak for anybody else, but my gender doesn't fluctuate based on what I'm wearing.
* In general, there's a lot of overlap for me between an ideal world for trans people and a world that accepts and respects women. I know this is a really big stretch, but you know what would be a perfect world for me? A world where a man, even a stranger, could come up to me and say "cute earrings" without it coming across as their coming on to me. One of the most frustrating things about cis men for me is the difficulty they have distinguishing between looking good and being a sex object.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts off the top of my head.
I think transition before puberty becomes the norm in the future, allowing trans people to forgo the horror of going through puberty for the wrong sex.
People won't know that someone ever transitioned.
In a gender-minimal society, do those people even identify as trans anymore? What is gender identity in a world where society doesn't force a picture of what a gender is supposed to look like on you? Do we start looking at those thoughts and feelings through a different lens at that point?
I don't think we'll ever find out, but it is something I think about sometimes
I have late-onset gender dysphoria, and frankly I'm not exactly sure to what extent I want to transition to this day. Even in a perfect world I don't see myself having "transitioned" before puberty. I'm also old, to the extent where I'm less horrified by having gone through the "wrong" puberty and more horrified at the prospect of having to go through that shit again.
You're right of course. I mean at this point it's almost a philosophical argument, but one we have to be careful of false actors taking part in. It's like the "I don't see race / in a perfect world we all get Along and there are no differences"... yes true but we don't live in that world!
Uh
What do you mean by "late onset"? That's not a medically-defined or supported definition of gender dysphoria to my awareness. Nor is "rapid-onset" gender dysphoria.
Well, Wikipedia is wrong then - not surprising as I know it's had trans issues before. Apologies if I'm passing on any inaccurate information, and thank you for any correction you have to offer. I'm just trying to navigate this with the information I have available to me!
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While people scream and argue over toilet access rights of today, they forget that in the future, we'll likely have the ability to change the genetic makeup of people via gene therapy, with people being able to become fully indistinguishable from a born-that-way person. Sure, there'll likely be traces of the work but you won't know that by looking at the person in the street.
I think in the ideal future, we just forget about the labels of man, woman, male, female. We'll just develop new ones that don't focus on those characteristics, instead focusing on other things. Things like xe, xir and etc get made fun of, but its the future. Mad that we continue to focus on pigeonholing people by their reproductive capabilities in a world where overpopulation is a thing.
I think in the ideal future, we just forget about the labels of man, woman, male, female. We'll just develop new ones that don't focus on those characteristics, instead focusing on other things. Things like xe, xir and etc get made fun of, but its the future. Mad that we continue to focus on pigeonholing people by their reproductive capabilities in a world where overpopulation is a thing.
There are plenty of trans people who fulfill that even today. Especially of they were able to avoid the wrong puberty.
I've done some reading, and apparently the DSM-V notes late-onset as "transgender person didn't recognize what they were experiencing was gender dysphoria until later in life", which is true for many trans people (like myself).
I think where I grew concerned is that it sounds like"rapid-onset" gender dysphoria, which is of course horseshit based on one bad "study" that excluded trans folx from its "research".
(Great article that utterly repudiates the laughable but dangerous concept).
I'm talking about down to the cell level, even though I might have worded it a bit wrong.
That doesn't make sense though? You can't see someone's chromosomes by looking at them in the street.
Sorry, my bad.
Although there is probably not much to gain from changing people at the cellular level when that is not what makes a noticable difference.
And I fear everyone who rejects trans people now just because of that will then just reject us based on the fact we had them at all at some point in the past.
I agree and think that is what we have to strive towards in general, whatever the identity is. We need to somehow move past narrow identities and treat everybody with equal respect (except for Nazis or anyone else who doesn't believe in equal treatment and respect for all - Popper's Paradox of Tolerance). In the end, race, sex, gender, etc, none of that should matter.
Here I should note that while I didn't know it was dysphoria, I knew I was a girl as early as 4/5 years old. I just repressed it over and over and over. So 'late-onset' wouldn't actually apply to me.
Probably can't tell difference with everyone being beautiful and attractive as long one has money
Thanks for the clarification, and I'm glad to know that Wikipedia isn't spewing out anti-trans propaganda (at least in this instance), because I have been relying on it pretty heavily to try and understand myself. So-called "ROGD" does look like another manifestation of the long line of junk science that has plagued transgender studies. Thankfully people are starting to catch on!
Agreed. I have never heard of Popper's Paradox of Tolerance, it is fascinating.
When I say trans should just exist, I also mean that they don't have to struggle with identity or have to push themselves far to be seen, heard and tolerated. This has to go beyond media representation and more into societal acceptance through common channels. While media has its uses, we should just all allow trans people to walk in the door and not have to feel bad, or not feel themselves in any social circle or place. Easier said than done I know, but just like bullying, homophobia, sexism and racism it has to be called out on ground level from everyday people. As a group, the voice is stronger and louder.
Yeah where i'm at is trans people should already be considered a full and unconditional member of their new sex or gender. Even cis people aren't out here getting our clits measured and our genes tested (except female athletes who win too much hrmm) so why should there be qualifiers just because we can manipulate them?
One thing that I wouldn't like to see is the normalisation of an "ideal" transition being weaponized to close doors off to people's personal choices. Like say you want to just get top surgery but not bottom? Or you wanted to be butch or effeminate or androgynous? Or perhaps you passed up your chance to transition and changed your mind later in life? We need to keep options open that don't deny people their own agencies that come at the challenge of our notions of gender binary and arbitrary gender expression because I think the happiness and comfort of people should come before the order and convenience of a potential technological package deal.
Down with the gender binary!
I do also agree with the people saying a post-misogynist society would make a huge difference for trans & NB rights.
One thing that I wouldn't like to see is the normalisation of an "ideal" transition being weaponized to close doors off to people's personal choices. Like say you want to just get top surgery but not bottom? Or you wanted to be butch or effeminate or androgynous? Or perhaps you passed up your chance to transition and changed your mind later in life? We need to keep options open that don't deny people their own agencies that come at the challenge of our notions of gender binary and arbitrary gender expression because I think the happiness and comfort of people should come before the order and convenience of a potential technological package deal.
Down with the gender binary!
I do also agree with the people saying a post-misogynist society would make a huge difference for trans & NB rights.