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MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
I think there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about TF.

A 2 TF difference between XSX and PS5 "matters" when both consoles are going to be targeting 4K resolutions

Lockhart being 4 TF is theoretically okay because it's going to be targeting 1080p at lesser details.

Lockhart isn't trying to achieve what the PS5/XSX is trying to achieve which is why it being 4 TF doesn't matter, and I've seen a lot of people trying to find a "gotcha" moment with this when there really is none.

Nice explanation

Assuming everything else equal, ps5 will have slightly lower res than xsx. But not even 1800p - more like 2000p so almost native 4k. If xsx is doing 8mp with 12TF then ps5 could do 6.9mp with 10.3TF

Assuming ps5 uses reconstruction you'll barely even notice
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,735
When we are talking of the TF difference, I feel like dynamic resolution should take care of it in general?

I'd thought that was the general expectation. Where XSX is targeting - e.g. native 4K in a ALU or memory bandwidth bound scene, PS5 will target 4K minus x% or whatever.

To that extent, however much Lockhart is 'fine' vs XSX at 1080p, PS5 will be 'fine' vs XSX at its resolution.

The times it would become problematic is where a game on PS5 tried to match XSX resolution in those alu/bw bound scenarios, and framerate suffers.

But since resolution scaling is the 'easiest' way to approach all these systems and the scaling between them, I expect games on PS5 will also scale resolution appropriately where it's necessary to maintain performance.

(Side note: resolution scaling in the opposite direction can also go the wrong way for performance, where a game's ambitions are bigger than its targets' capability. As we've seen with some games on X1X vs PS4 Pro. Sometimes the expectation of higher resolution is a burden!)
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,304
NJ
This isn't true. nVidia has already confirmed existing RTX cards will support DX12 Ultimate features, including sampler feedback, and AMD has confirmed RDNA2 will also.

Custom HW was added to SX for DX12U features. Sampler Feedback isn't Sampler Feedback Streaming

James stanard
Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect @ Microsoft
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
We will see. I want to believe that but I fear it will really beneficial to a few games in a few situations. I mean every games will have faster loading, but that only won't fundamentally change a game.

For now, the only example of a faster SSD is to be able to have a fast traversal of the world (Spider-Man). This could be useful but not for every games.
As for the CPU, I don't really know how it will really fundamentally change games. Bigger cities with bigger crowd mostly? More destruction? IA has not really improved since PS2 era so I don't know if it's really CPU bounded.

I would love to be wrong though, I hope developers will surprise us. But I think it will mostly help to make games more flashy like you said more than creating new games or new gameplay mechanics.

The number one asked thing by developers according to Sony was a SSD and while developers probably would have been over the moon by any SSD MS included one that could be considered high end and Sony went even further and their solution is even faster than anything available in the consumer market.

Regarding examples on how they can be used there are multiple comments made by developers and you also have Star Citizen on PC that while it technically can run on a HDD in reality it really does not.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
This isn't true. nVidia has already confirmed existing RTX cards will support DX12 Ultimate features, including sampler feedback, and AMD has confirmed RDNA2 will also.
One Ms engineer said the SX implementation has some extra hardware not available currently on desktop gpus.

Likely not important enough so the feature can still be used on current systems, but perhaps with a performance penalty?
 

DigSCCP

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
4,201
Just to be clear here, my tweet was referring to devs in the Windows Central article saying SSD and CPU matter the most in the next-gen jump. It's true, this is the significant part of the next-gen. GPU performance will still matter a lot too, of course. On paper, the XSX looks like the more powerful console, but we won't know until we see what devs are optimizing for on both. Will be interesting to see what devs do to utilize the increased speeds of the PS5 SSD, but you're still ultimately using a GPU to render frames not an SSD.

I've been saying for a long time that if Lockhart has the CPU and SSD improvements of XSX then there's no reason it will negatively impact next-gen game development. Interested to see how game devs react to it when they see the specs.

According to Jason Schreier their reaction is not good.
Not only with the GPU but also on the RAM side of the things, he said that they feel this SKU will hamper next gen.
 
Feb 8, 2018
2,570
Makes sense. Lockhart is looking to compromise on resolution (1080p/1440p machine vs its 4k older siblings) and possibly visual effects, not game design - which is far more beholden to CPU, RAM and storage than raw GPU brunt. Still not sure why people fail to understand this.

I'm hopeful that when they reveal Lockhart they'll outright wag the fact in your face that Lockhart won't be undermining next-generation gaming. Just show me Fable 4 on Series X in ~4k, then cut to 1080p Lockhart footage.

My only real question concerning the lockhart debate is : Would devs have a different approach if lockhart or any other console of any company that is less powerful than the main/base console didn't exist in any form?
 

Deleted member 11276

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,223
Custom HW was added to SX for DX12U features. Sampler Feedback isn't Sampler Feedback Streaming

James stanard
Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect @ Microsoft

Sampler Feedback Streaming is a use-case of Sampler Feedback. MS added special hardware to XSX to make it, as James said, more useful but it still can be used on PC via DirectStorage and DX12 Ultimate API
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,094
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
According to Jason Schreier their reaction is not good.
Not only with the GPU but also on the RAM side of the things, he said that they feel this SKU will hamper next gen.
OTOH didn't he also hear that PS5 was more powerful than XSX (or was it dev kits?)
(And that other comment that both were aiming at over 10.7 Tf of Stadia)

perhaps it's just me but Jason Schreier seems a bit more biased towards Sony. Obviously, this could be just me but that has been my impression as of late..
 

Giant Panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,688
How is it different from devs supporting Xbox One S and Xbox One X simultaneously? In fact, Lockhart and Series X sound like they'll be even more similar to each other than those two consoles.
He says GPU difference will be noticeable (likely in terms of resolution and effects), but it won't impact game design because they're on par where it counts. This is not rocket science.
One X is held back by it's link to the One S, so games on it mostly just up the resolution to use the extra TF instead of adding much in the way of new effects. That's okay for the One X since it was a mid-gen upgrade. But for Series X to be held back due to the Lockhart (and possibly the PS5 for 3rd parties as well) would be super disappointing. Series X is already looking to be running games at higher resolution than it really needs to (native 4k), because that's the easiest way for devs to still be able to support Lockhart. So no, I don't expect Lockhart to hold game design back, but I do expect it to hold graphics of games back.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
This is a really important point by Tom Warren that we've heard for over a year now. This gen will be defined by the CPUs and I/O speeds. Moving the baseline of those up in consoles was critical if you want developers to make new types of experiences from a game design standpoint. You can scale resolution, textures, particle effects, and lighting easily. Devs will continue to do that on PC to expand accessibility. While those have visual impact, they don't change the way a game is designed.

On the other hand outside of mega sized devs (like maybe a 343, Rockstar) you're probably not going to rearrange level design geometry, drastically change the core gameplay driven by the CPU, etc.

The baseline for all next gen consoles I/O speeds and CPUs has gone up. Lockhart may actually speed up adoption of the baseline allowing big publishers to justify leaving Jaguar cores and HDDs behind sooner rather than later. In the end, the business of gaming holds back game design more than hardware.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
While i agree that SSD and CPU are key to next gen, teraflops are equally as important. if the cpu is finally allowing for destructible and more interative enviornments with large NPC counts, weather simulations, crash simulations, and whatever else kind of sim possible next gen, the GPU will still need to render all of that while making sure they still have that next gen sheen.

Same goes for SSD. you will have spiderman traveling through the city at the speed of a fighter jet. well, the gpu still needs to render it. the draw distance and pop ins are usually limited by vram, but you still need the gpu to render it.

and with ray tracing becoming a norm next gen, tflops will be key. while i agree that lockhart wont hold back next gen consoles just like how the switch isnt holding back current gen consoles, i dont think ray tracing will be the norm on the lockhart. ps5 with its 10 tflops should be fine, but you gotta wonder if 1440p or 4kcb will be the norm on the ps5. i hope so. i dont see the point in wasting tflops just to render native 4k.
 

Jssom

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
470
I think there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about TF.

A 2 TF difference between XSX and PS5 "matters" when both consoles are going to be targeting 4K resolutions

Lockhart being 4 TF is theoretically okay because it's going to be targeting 1080p at lesser details.

Lockhart isn't trying to achieve what the PS5/XSX is trying to achieve which is why it being 4 TF doesn't matter, and I've seen a lot of people trying to find a "gotcha" moment with this when there really is none.


Well, Sony and their fanbase is more than fine if it come to a couple hundreds of resolution difference, some are saying most likely it will be something like 2160p vs 2000p, that's a minimal difference not Sony nor their fans are losing sleep because of it (The PS4 Pro vs XB1X games performance is the biggest evidence of this).
 

Hopewell

Member
Jan 17, 2018
513
The number one asked thing by developers according to Sony was a SSD and while developers probably would have been over the moon by any SSD MS included one that could be considered high end and Sony went even further and their solution is even faster than anything available in the consumer market.

Regarding examples on how they can be used there are multiple comments made by developers and you also have Star Citizen on PC that while it technically can run on a HDD in reality it really does not.
From what I've read, SSD will be really useful for developers as it will ease development. For example for Spider-Man, they had to duplicate a lot of datas to get the traversal to work.

And again I am not saying the vastly better CPU and the SSD will not be important and allow developers to do more than they used to. Just that not every games will make use of it contrary to a better GPU that can always be useful.
Then again, maybe I just lack imagination.

We will see the first next games soon anyway! Maybe even next month!
 
Feb 8, 2018
2,570
Not really no they just wouldn't need to worry about scaling it back for 1080p.

Should have made clear that the Resolution part is the one thing that is easier for me to understand. The person I quoted also mentions visual effects. That is a bit harder for me. We'll see. I never doubt these companies, most of the time there are methods, techniques and trickery that'll do the job.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,330


I dont understand what your posts are in
I hate the entire concept of Lockhart and wish it wasn't a thing. I'll always believe being able to focus on a single SKU is ideal for game design.

That said if all devs really have to do is flip the res from 4K to 1080p with zero compromises elsewhere and Lockhart is priced correctly ($199-$299)..then I totally understand it's purpose. It will go after the casual market as a replacement for all previous Xbox One hardware (which is likely ceasing production very soon) while still 'participating' in next gen at a price a lot more consumers will find palatable, particularly in this recently wrecked economy.

Almost no developers focus on a single sku because they develop for multiple platforms anyway. Certainly true of MS dev's with or without Lockhart.
 

Deleted member 65994

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 14, 2020
627
Man, the cpu and SSD could puch the ambitious of devs big time. But at the same time, imagine if dev time even becomes more longer than this gen.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,928
Austin, TX
One X is held back by it's link to the One S, so games on it mostly just up the resolution to use the extra TF instead of adding much in the way of new effects. That's okay for the One X since it was a mid-gen upgrade. But for Series X to be held back due to the Lockhart (and possibly the PS5 for 3rd parties as well) would be super disappointing. Series X is already looking to be running games at higher resolution than it really needs to (native 4k), because that's the easiest way for devs to still be able to support Lockhart. So no, I don't expect Lockhart to hold game design back, but I do expect it to hold graphics of games back.
In the unlikely circumstance that a game is running at 1080p30 on XSX and PS5 where no other graphical settings could possibly be disabled to boost performance, then I will concede that Lockhart could hold back novel graphics techniques
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
One X is held back by it's link to the One S, so games on it mostly just up the resolution to use the extra TF instead of adding much in the way of new effects. That's okay for the One X since it was a mid-gen upgrade. But for Series X to be held back due to the Lockhart (and possibly the PS5 for 3rd parties as well) would be super disappointing. Series X is already looking to be running games at higher resolution than it really needs to (native 4k), because that's the easiest way for devs to still be able to support Lockhart. So no, I don't expect Lockhart to hold game design back, but I do expect it to hold graphics of games back.

There's a lot of nuance missing from this argument. Yes you could make the case that if the X was the baseline, devs could aim for lower resolutions and textures and move that power to other things like physics. As long as devs are targeting 4K res and high end lighting on the high end machines however, there's always going to be a massive amount of scalability available from a GPU standpoint. Next gen not only do we fact resolution but also ray tracing.

So devs will use that power but it will be used for enthusast features. This allows games to scale better on PC as well as console. The business of gaming on the PC side will continue to exist with or without Lockhart. Devs will make 4k/ray traced versions of their games targeted to the high end and scale to lower res, textures, and lighting. The variance in GPU support on PC will be larger than the 3x difference on consoles.

So yeah...devs could technically use all that GPU power for things outside of resolution, lighting and effects if they didn't have to consider scalibility. Having to scale removes that option. If Lockhart didn't exist, they still wouldn't have that option because publishers want to sell games on PC as well.
 

Deleted member 16908

Oct 27, 2017
9,377
This is hypocritical. He was all over the teraflop train at one point. Then the gap became negligible but still enough to be an issue but now a 8tf gap isn't an issue between both xbox series.

Here's what I believe he meant.

The TF difference between PS5 and XSX will lead to subtle differences in resolution and other visual effects as the gen progresses, just like we saw this gen with PS4 Pro and Xbox One X. These differences will be purely visual.

The massive TF difference between Lockhart and XSX will obviously mean a much lower resolution as well as dialed-back visual settings compared to PS5 and XSX, but on a fundamental game design level (like the stuff Cerny mentioned in his talk about having to design windy pathways to give areas time to load) Lockhart will be able to keep pace because it will have roughly the same CPU and SSD, which are the real difference makers in asset streaming.

In other words, if you take a given multi-platform game, you can assume it will look best on XSX, almost as good on PS5, and much less crisp and detailed on Lockhart due to the huge resolution difference. The graphical fidelity will be impacted, but the core game design will not.
 

melodiousmowl

Member
Jan 14, 2018
3,774
CT
No it wouldn't. I don't know where people got that idea from. SSDs are already quite common and they gain more traction every year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/285474/hdds-and-ssds-in-pcs-global-shipments-2012-2017/

Anyone, even 10 year old computers, can upgrade to a SSD very easily and with under $100 for a 1 TB SSD it's also a cheap upgrade compared to RAM.

It won't take long for the SSD to be a minimum requirement. Those ancient HDDs shouldn't hold back game development for much longer.

Games made from the ground up for next generation will likely have storage speed requirements, for example:

Minimum: SATA SSD
Recommended : NVMe PCIe Gen 3 SSD
Ideal: NVMe PCIe Gen 4 SSD

Sata ssds need to not be considered. The benefits of nvme over sata aside from raw speed, like direct memory access, are what really make it shine for games that utilize it.
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,611
Texas
I think a lot of folks also need to remember that dynamic resolution became a (big) thing this gen, and that it's likely to evolve and improve this coming gen, to the point where we may not even really be so focused on resolution anymore. ie: what resolution is the game being rendered at right now? Because if it's easier to get performance out of it being dynamic, and the quality of the scaling gets to where it's incredibly hard to tell the difference, then we may not really care anymore at the end of the gen.

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, and I know we've all been asking for this for the last few gens, but this really needs to be the gen that finally puts game performance up higher on the priorities list, and it's sounding a lot like that's what is going to happen.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
First, he says that the Gap between the GPU of PS5 and XSX will show its differences and then he says, GPU won't the most important feature ?!
Yeah sure Tom.
The SSD can be the most important part of the puzzle while the GPU can show a difference. It's not a situation where it's one or the other. They can co-exist.

It's also in the phrasing. "Could be noticeable." It's not a definitive statement, nor does it imply the difference will be large, rather that it would be small as most would expect. Being noticeable doesn't mean something is going to be a huge difference or centrally important. 1800p to 2160p is noticeable, for example, but it's also insignificant.
 

ImaginaShawn

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,532
That's what I was thinking, but the rumors still are 4 TF vs 6 on the 1X, right?
Watch this video:
www.youtube.com

RX 5500 XT vs GTX 1660 vs RX 590 Test in 8 Games

Radeon RX 5500 XT vs RX 590 vs GeForce GTX 1660 l 1080p lVisit Gamivo and get games in good prices, go to: https://bit.ly/2QMiqWrUse coupon code: TestingGam...

That is the RX 5500 performing on par with the RX 590, a gpu with ~2tflops more GPU power, double the RAM, ~15% more gpu bandwidth, all while using the same GPU and SSD.

The XSS will have GPU that is on a newer architecture than the 5500XT so it will likely outperform said 5500XT in rasterization, will have RT cores, have more bandwidth, more RAM, and other new features like VRS and Sampler Feedback Streaming. There is also the SSD which is 40x faster than the HDD in the 1x, and the XSS CPU which is >4x more powerful than the CPU in the 1x.
 

Deleted member 65994

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 14, 2020
627
let's assume 4k@30 is the baseline for XSX, what if when a dev cuts half the resulution in favor for 60 fps? You would be around 1550p. If you split that 1550p into three (lockhart gpu), than you would fall below the 1080p line for lockhart. IDk if that is the next gen experience you want.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,735
Custom HW was added to SX for DX12U features. Sampler Feedback isn't Sampler Feedback Streaming

James stanard
Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect @ Microsoft


One Ms engineer said the SX implementation has some extra hardware not available currently on desktop gpus.

Likely not important enough so the feature can still be used on current systems, but perhaps with a performance penalty?

So cool, yeah, that sounds like a fallback for when a texture mip level is missing, but that's not part of the feedback out of the sampler per se. So if you're streaming in textures, and maybe you don't have the optimal mip yet, the filter unit might apply a filter that gives a better result than just a bog standard sample.

The feedback part though, which is the part that helps you more precisely load in-use mips to reduce memory capacity and bandwidth 'waste', is in DX12 Ultimate, RTX, RDNA2 etc. That's the bit relevant to data throughput.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,997
This should be obvious to anyone.
Graphics cards make things shiny. CPU affects performance.
Now of course it's more nuanced than that, but generally it's a lot easier to turn down the visual quality/resolution to improve performance than optimize for a slower CPU.

For example:
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided on an old i5-2500K, with an ~2.5 TFLOP GTX 960:
dxmd1157szw.jpg

This scene (the most CPU-intense one I have found in the game) is running at ~43 FPS with only 60% GPU utilization, because the CPU is maxed-out at 100% and holding it back.

Let's upgrade the GPU to an ~6.5 TFLOP GTX 1070:
dxmd1070hwq87.jpg

Oh, it's the exact same 43.7 FPS; but since the GPU is faster it's only running at 33% utilization now.

We can of course do more with a faster GPU: increasing the resolution and graphical fidelity:
dxmd-ultra47snc.jpg

We get the same ~43 FPS, but now the GPU is at 99% utilization and it looks a lot better.
No matter how much you turn down the graphical settings or increase the performance of the GPU, it won't run any faster because the CPU is the limiting factor here.
Upgrade the CPU from that old i5-2500K to a Ryzen 1700X and performance in the above scene now reaches 92 FPS instead of 43 FPS:
dxmd-d3d11-smt0hhdqu.png

But we are still limited by our CPU, as the GPU utilization is still only reaching 56%.
With a fast enough CPU, that scene could theoretically be running at 164 FPS on the GTX 1070 - though I'd prefer to tune it for ~90 FPS with better graphics.

In another set of tests, if we have the CPU running at 4.5 GHz, it runs at 50 FPS:
4500mhz-smallq3sgf.png


If we roughly halve the CPU clockspeed to 2.3 GHz, it now runs at 26 FPS:
2300mhz-small29sbe.png


Performance in this test scales almost linearly with CPU performance, since we are not limited by our GPU.
PS5 GPU is 20% slower than XSX? You can just drop the resolution by 20% to make up for it.
CPU performance is what matters more.

Though while Teraflops aren't and never were the single most important measurement for hardware power, it is difficult to believe that a 4 TF console would not hold back a 12TF machine.
After all, all games must be designed to be scalable between 4TF and 12TF, which is a limitation in itself.
4K is 4x the resolution of 1080p.
The performance difference is 3x.

Why would the 12TF system be holding back the 4TF system?
If all else was equal, that would actually make Lockhart more powerful relative to the output resolution, since it is 1/3 the power for 1/4 the resolution.
I'm quite sure that it will be scaled back in other ways, but if we're purely comparing 4TF to 12TF, I don't see the issue. You could run games at 1200p and still have a slight performance advantage.
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,206
OTOH didn't he also hear that PS5 was more powerful than XSX (or was it dev kits?)
(And that other comment that both were aiming at over 10.7 Tf of Stadia)

perhaps it's just me but Jason Schreier seems a bit more biased towards Sony. Obviously, this could be just me but that has been my impression as of late..
No Jason only heard from devs that they were both strong. Jason doesn't bat for either side so not sure why you are downplaying his reporting versus an exclusively MS outlet.
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
7,846
Watch this video:
www.youtube.com

RX 5500 XT vs GTX 1660 vs RX 590 Test in 8 Games

Radeon RX 5500 XT vs RX 590 vs GeForce GTX 1660 l 1080p lVisit Gamivo and get games in good prices, go to: https://bit.ly/2QMiqWrUse coupon code: TestingGam...

That is the RX 5500 performing on par with the RX 590, a gpu with ~2tflops more GPU power, double the RAM, ~15% more gpu bandwidth, all while using the same GPU and SSD.

The XSS will have GPU that is on a newer architecture than the 5500XT so it will likely outperform said 5500XT in rasterization, will have RT cores, have more bandwidth, more RAM, and other new features like VRS and Sampler Feedback Streaming. There is also the SSD which is 40x faster than the HDD in the 1x, and the XSS CPU which is >4x more powerful than the CPU in the 1x.

I pretty sure with GPU RDNA2 and features like Mesh Shaders,GPU Work creation,SFS and VRS XSS can match with GTX 1080 in terms of PERF on 1080p

GTX1080 don't support next gen features like VRS,Mesh shaders,DXR1.1 etc...

 

melodiousmowl

Member
Jan 14, 2018
3,774
CT
SATA does DMA. Even spinning rust over PATA does DMA. I think NVME does have a better protocol designed with faster access speeds in mind though.
Damn, you are right, I just never once thought about it as it really didnt make a large difference in PC performance, but the terminology has been everywhere, im a dunce.


If you are into overview minutia of the differences: (though, technically, nvme drives also contend with a controller, though I think sata has one on device and one on mobo)

www.kingston.com

What is NVMe SSD technology? - Kingston Technology

NVMe is the protocol for SSDs, which is faster than the legacy AHCI protocol used in SATA SSDs and hard drives. The form factors for NVMe storage are M.2 and U.2.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
Damn, you are right, I just never once thought about it as it really didnt make a large difference in PC performance, but the terminology has been everywhere, im a dunce.


If you are into overview minutia of the differences:

www.kingston.com

What is NVMe SSD technology? - Kingston Technology

NVMe is the protocol for SSDs, which is faster than the legacy AHCI protocol used in SATA SSDs and hard drives. The form factors for NVMe storage are M.2 and U.2.
It actually does make a massive difference in performance. If you don't use DMA, you have to use programmed I/O where the CPU reads from the drive and then puts it in the right bit of memory. Even transferring at 100MB a second can completely lock up a CPU core (well, in 2010ish at least last time I tried) with PIO.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Burbs of Atlanta
So cool, yeah, that sounds like a fallback for when a texture mip level is missing, but that's not part of the feedback out of the sampler per se. So if you're streaming in textures, and maybe you don't have the optimal mip yet, the filter unit might apply a filter that gives a better result than just a bog standard sample.

The feedback part though, which is the part that helps you more precisely load in-use mips to reduce memory capacity and bandwidth 'waste', is in DX12 Ultimate, RTX, RDNA2 etc. That's the bit relevant to data throughput.

Well, it makes use of the feedback and is kinda what gives it the 'streaming' part of the name in SFS. Ask for something and you'll get the highest quality we can at the moment and then bump it up when we get it. Like how any dynamic quality stream works.
 

gothmog

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,434
NY
TFs don't matter. Until they do. But then again even if they do they don't. Sometimes. :)

Last generation had both consoles developing/applying a multitude of tricks in order to get to a desired resolution and/or performance point. These new machines are all more powerful than what we have. They will use all of these tricks with the Lockhart.

I have a ton of questions in my head around the Lockhart, but none of them are technical.
 

Adryuu

Master of the Wind
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,597
Watch this video:
www.youtube.com

RX 5500 XT vs GTX 1660 vs RX 590 Test in 8 Games

Radeon RX 5500 XT vs RX 590 vs GeForce GTX 1660 l 1080p lVisit Gamivo and get games in good prices, go to: https://bit.ly/2QMiqWrUse coupon code: TestingGam...

That is the RX 5500 performing on par with the RX 590, a gpu with ~2tflops more GPU power, double the RAM, ~15% more gpu bandwidth, all while using the same GPU and SSD.

The XSS will have GPU that is on a newer architecture than the 5500XT so it will likely outperform said 5500XT in rasterization, will have RT cores, have more bandwidth, more RAM, and other new features like VRS and Sampler Feedback Streaming. There is also the SSD which is 40x faster than the HDD in the 1x, and the XSS CPU which is >4x more powerful than the CPU in the 1x.

Yeah I know, and in context I was saying that with little effort the Lockhart versions should be better than the 1X ones, in the first place, or at least with little visual difference, not like some user I was replying to implied (that it would be worse). Anyway imo at worst, games should be very similar visually (resolution/ performance, but with ray tracing) while loading much faster and maybe having better framerates especially in CPU intensive games.

What unleashed these quotes to me was me saying that I don't know how the Lockhart versions would be much better aside from loading times and possible ray tracing than the X1 versions of games from the first year, which will be cross gen. I'm just curious on this particular aspect. But then I'm also curious how will they even run on the 1S or how will they be compromised to do so. In the meantime, people are worried because Lockhart exists (which would be ok in the long run but launch and first year titles should be a way bigger worry - while I'm fine with it because I won't get a console soon).

It's clear enough to me that pure next gen games won't be able to work on 1X but during the first year the Lockhart will be a hard sell to people that already has the 1X if that newer GPU arquitecture is not put to not good but awesome use because the numbers don't sell it and cross gen games don't either unless they are tragically upgraded in visuals. If it is capable enough though, on the long run, I'm on the market for a Lockhart probably before/in place of a Series X but right now that's a big if, being a X1 owner and having a year or more or cross gen games.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,735
Well, it makes use of the feedback and is kinda what gives it the 'streaming' part of the name in SFS.

Sure, but the discussion was originally talking about the bandwidth/capacity 'amplification' that may be possible due to sampler feedback, and I think it's worth clarifying that the key bit of hardware for that specifically, is not 'only' in SX and is in other general GPUs, and I believe that's what G_Zero was asking about.