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MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Yeah, in general Sentai has trended downwards in the last 5 years and Kiramager just continued that trend.
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These are only Japanese toy numbers though. They don't include the money Bandai used to get from Power Rangers (which added at least 10 billions every year before the last decade. Although in more recent years it was dropping and then became basically nothing due to Bandai selling the license).
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chaobreaker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,541
idk why they double down on the mecha toys when sales are always dropping. The future is clearly in making the changer toys just as full-loaded as rider belts.
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,816
Kiramagers has very few toys, no? It's the first time since forever that they change only with a button press, not that much mecha to begin with, and shared weapons instead of individual designs.

Saber's not even that Sentai-y, it's kind of a meme to call it that as an insult to its quality. When people say "Saber is like a sentai" it always comes off as a low effort criticism without addressing the actual pacing and tonal issues.

When you get down to it you got a team of multi-colored heroes and a dancing ending. That's pretty much it as far as stuff that's a bit unusual for Rider. I guess a giant humanoid robot maybe even though giant robots have been popping up quite a bit in Rider, King Arthur just happens to be the most traditional Sentai looking one, but he's probably only gonna be used like two times more max.

I see this thrown a lot by people who don't actually watch sentai (not by anyone here, mind you) because of Saber's goofy elements (like the Kabuta 3-kyoudai attacks) or its very fantastical element (another world of dragons and castles and whatnot). The argument has merits but too often used in a conversation just to bash on Saber like you say. Sentai can be goofy, weird, and kiddy but complex, heartwarming, and full of energy at the same time, I'd welcome more series like that lol.
 
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DioMuller

DioMuller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,468
Brazil
Saber 14

Remember Ghost, when everyboby started treating Takeru like a savior and it felt underserved? Saber did this, but for Kento, so it feels even more undeserved. All he did as a Knight was rush things, get defeated, and then be saved by others. What I'm saying is the same as always, this series needs better character development.

That said, the villains are getting a bit more of airtime and development, so... that's a good thing? The fights were fine, too. But things simply don't make any sense! Why are there still people near the pillars of light where the monsters hang out?!

One thing I still like in this series is Mei/Rintaro. It's funny, and they at least got *some* chemistry. Mei was kinda weird this episode, but Rintaro (and Slash) always deliver. Heck, nothing too wrong with Kenzan and Buster as characters too. Those four deserved a better series for sure.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
Yeah I also felt that it was a very bad episode, even tough I really like Mei/Rintaro interactions.

It was another episode that was a long fight, that made little to no sense how it was happening (characters would seemingly abandon their 1 vs 1 fights and would magicaly appear to assist another in a 1 vs 1 fight) And Rintaro wins by receiving a newer toy.

I'm hoping that after Christmas they slow down a bit.

Also, is the bad guys room always a green screen? I tought that sometimes some actors seem on the set, then one or two are green screened in.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
I really think the Kento situation happened due to Takuro Fukuda (the main writer) leaving for almost 2 months after writing one episode focused on him and then the other writers taking him in a different direction than the one he intended, with these two episodes and the special tied to episode 13 being heavy damage control. Back in episode 5, Takuro Fukuda wrote Kento brooding about his father, but then he opened up with Buster and Touma and he seemingly was fine in episode 6. But then the secondary writers just made him more and more obsessed with his father's mystery afterwards, falling back into lone battles and rejecting others. Then Takuro Fukuda returns and suddenly tries to make it seem like he actually valued everyone and everyone liked him, ignoring or downplaying all the conflict they had.

It feels oddly common in Rider to see obvious characterization issues in shows with many writers, but Takuro Fukuda left really early this time, so there wasn't even a clear baseline, which probably just made the situation worse (he wrote episodes 1-2, 5-6, then skipped all the way to 13-14).
 
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Oct 25, 2017
12,192
It was another episode that was a long fight, that made little to no sense how it was happening (characters would seemingly abandon their 1 vs 1 fights and would magicaly appear to assist another in a 1 vs 1 fight) And Rintaro wins by receiving a newer toy.
The fight is awful. Why did the three Riders even swap books if only Slash used his?? What was the point of half of what was said or done? Gah. So bad.
How are the mecha? I almost bought the main mech for the kids for Xmas but spent too much on Saber toys. I do know it's relatively small.
Can't speak for the toys themselves, but I really like the designs.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
Yeah I definitely can't tell how many of the villains in Saber are actually in the same green screen room...

I really like the actors who play the villains. Not much to work with but they look cool.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
I really think the Kento situation happened due to Takuro Fukuda (the main writer) leaving for almost 2 months after writing one episode focused on him and then the other writers taking him in a different direction than the one he intended, with these two episodes and the special tied to episode 13 being heavy damage control. Back in episode 5, Takuro Fukuda wrote Kento brooding about his father, but then he opened up with Buster and Touma and he seemingly was fine in episode 6. But then the secondary writers just made him more and more obsessed with his father's mystery afterwards, falling back into lone battles and rejecting others. Then Takuro Fukuda returns and suddenly tries to make it seem like he actually valued everyone and everyone liked him, ignoring or downplaying all the conflict they had.

It feels oddly common in Rider to see obvious characterization issues in shows with many writers, but Takuro Fukuda left really early this time, so there wasn't even a clear baseline, which probably just made the situation worse (he wrote episodes 1-2, 5-6, then skipped all the way to 13-14).

Oh that explains a lot!

BTW, so whats up with green haired narrator? It seemed like he was going to meet an important character, then he and the important character arrived at the scene, then....nothing?
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Actually, my main sentai comparison is the hard focus on other Riders for their episodes. Generally, with a smaller number of Riders, the show is like 70% main Rider, and the rest the occasional focus on the others and villains. Whereas Sentai operates on the character focus rotation: Setup > Red > Blue > Color #3 > Color #4 > Color #5 > New Situation > New Ranger > Rotate Again. It's about the ensemble.

Saber operates similarly so far, because they have so many Riders. Episodes: Saber > Blades > Buster > Espada > Kenzan > Arthur Robot > Slash > Calibur Reveal (New Situation) and now we're rotating again.

Now look at another huge multi-Rider show, Gaim. The focus of each episode: For the first 10: Gaim, Gaim, Baron, Ryugen, Gaim, Bravo, Gaim, Baron, PLOT SHIT focused on Gaim.

I think in the rush to introduce so many Riders, and the switch in writers, Touma gets the short end. He doesn't really feel like the focus of the show, the main character. He is Saber, but he partially just feels like that guy who happens to be around and needs to be in every episode (see Kyuranger's Red as an example). I honestly don't get a strong feeling of character impact from Touma, because the show isn't really focused on his conflicts, emotional or external. If anything, despite his uneven writing, Kento is probably the most meaningful character.

Now add in the main opening and ending focus on 5-6 Riders of various primary colors *and* the dancing ending, and yeah, and the sentai comparision really shouldn't surprise you.

EDIT: And like, I don't hate Saber. It's better than Ghost, for example. It just feel like they're going "RIDERS, RIDERS, RIDERS, FIGHTS GALORE" and then they look back and realize they have to tell a story and add characterization after the fact. And it's storytelling weaknesses are compounded when its airing next to Kirameiger and Ultraman Z.
 
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SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,459
Sentai needs to break out of it's traditional mold tbh. It's still 5+1 or 3+2+1. I'd love to see something like Gransazer where it's different "clans" of Sentai heroes. Also maybe they could sell mecha if their mechs didn't look like garbage. They haven't looked cool in years.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
Sentai needs to break out of it's traditional mold tbh. It's still 5+1 or 3+2+1. I'd love to see something like Gransazer where it's different "clans" of Sentai heroes. Also maybe they could sell mecha if their mechs didn't look like garbage. They haven't looked cool in years.

Man, I miss Gransazer. I typeset those Gransazer subs back in the day.

Kiramaizin looks dope, but I generally fast forward through most mech battles. The problem is largely that they A) have to combine and B) have to be working toys that combine. Which honestly messes everything up.
 

KingWillance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,376
Even in a lot of the sentai shows I've liked I generally tend to tune out during the mech fights, but I think Kiramager's have worked well. They're usually fairly snappy and this time around has focused way less on stock footage finishers. It's very rare that the mech fights in Kira don't have something unique to that episode, even if it's a silly gag, and I really appreciate it.
 

GalaxyDive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
Kira's mecha are... okay. For having very little cross-combination, Kiramaizin's components are all very basic, Sky Mage component use included.

Also hoooooold up. I'm behind on Saber, but.... they brought in Ghost's writer, who peaced out for a long stretch while the show broke down... and are basically letting the same thing happen again?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,448
Ryusoulger's base mechs are good amazing, some of the best. Problem is that it's a sentai so they have to combine the robots and it looks like crap the more you put on.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
They should do a Kiva for Sentai...

Two teams of Sentai, the current iteration in modern times and the OG team in like the early 90s.

But they're aware of each other through time travel shenanigans and work together.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,043
Sentai needs to break out of it's traditional mold tbh. It's still 5+1 or 3+2+1. I'd love to see something like Gransazer where it's different "clans" of Sentai heroes. Also maybe they could sell mecha if their mechs didn't look like garbage. They haven't looked cool in years.
Been saying that for years and not like Lupin's chickening out by sharing the main body mecha
 

GalaxyDive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
Ryusoulger's base mechs are good amazing, some of the best. Problem is that it's a sentai so they have to combine the robots and it looks like crap the more you put on.
I'm still amazed that the first time Sentai did a ~10 component clusterfuck gattai (Boukenger) is the cleanest one of those have ever looked.

Ryusoulger's mecha gimmick was phenomenal in concept but I wish it was built around a more traditional combiner rather than a transformer. But the end of the day problem was that most of the components were designed in a way that (as far as how the tv show could present them) simply amounted to just another aux "armor" piece that gets thrown away once the next aux comes, something that's been done numerous times before and was far from exciting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
Kira's mecha are... okay. For having very little cross-combination, Kiramaizin's components are all very basic, Sky Mage component use included.

Also hoooooold up. I'm behind on Saber, but.... they brought in Ghost's writer, who peaced out for a long stretch while the show broke down... and are basically letting the same thing happen again?
More or less, yeah.
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,936
I've considered catching up on Saber just so I have another thing to watch weekly but all these recent impressions and unflattering comparisons to Ghost are making me not want to.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
Yeah the Sentai mech fights have always been my least favorite part. I expected Ryusoulger to improve that, since the first episode had a really cool looking fight and the main red mech design was very agile, but then they kind of became the same thing as always.

Not sure why, but Kiramagers giant mech fights have been enjoyable to me. Maybe Ultraman Z has made me like that kind of stuff.
 

GalaxyDive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
I'm a huge mech fan myself but Sentai can really sway in quality and it can be hard to hit the jackpot on both good mech designs and fights in the same series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
I've considered catching up on Saber just so I have another thing to watch weekly but all these recent impressions and unflattering comparisons to Ghost are making me not want to.
While the editing and a bit of the pacing improved, pretty much it's same thing.

So writer is leaving again?
Why do they keep using this guy?
He is not leaving again, he wrote more or less the same amount of episodes for both seasons even though he said he would do better during the press conference . It's also only the second time he is the main writer, so it's hardly a case of "keep using" him.
 

chaobreaker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,541
Saber feels like it's still reeling hard from the pandemic measures despite Toei's other live-action show Kiramager mostly bouncing back from it.

The cast of the show has been almost exclusively featuring Sword of Logos members and the Megid since episode 3. Extras have barely appeared and we rarely had episodes that required a character of the day. It feels like I'm watching a show about a secret war between magical swordsmen taking place in abandoned streets and factories.

It just feels like a extremely self-contained show with no real stakes in hand.
 
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NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
So writer is leaving again?
Why do they keep using this guy?
Looking at his wiki page, he wrote for many dramas (although oddly he seems to have nothing else going on this year, while he was actually writing other stuff during Ghost, so I don't get how he's writing even less this time).

He is not leaving again, he wrote more or less the same amount of episodes for both seasons even though he said he would do better during the press conference . It's also only the second time he is the main writer, so it's hardly a case of "keep using" him.
So far he has written less than he had for Ghost at this point. With Ghost, he wrote the first five episodes and then it went into a cycle of two episodes by a secondary writer and two episodes by him. The big break only came in the late 20s. This time he only wrote the first two before starting to rotate with secondary writers and already had that oddly big gap between episode 6 and 13.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
It feels like I'm watching a show about a secret war between magical swordsmen taking place in abandoned streets and factories.

Which you could do honestly. Just lift the mechanics from something like X/1999 or Jujutsu Kaisen.

I admit, seeing Riku Sanjo pop up in Kira makes me want a return from him. Ayumi Shimo is also working her way up as a new voice too.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,459
Man, I miss Gransazer. I typeset those Gransazer subs back in the day.

Kiramaizin looks dope, but I generally fast forward through most mech battles. The problem is largely that they A) have to combine and B) have to be working toys that combine. Which honestly messes everything up.

I feel like Gransazer got kinda full in the latter third, but the concept behind it was great and I wish we had more "other" henshin hero series. Also, you did the typeset work for TV-N?

Been saying that for years and not like Lupin's chickening out by sharing the main body mecha

If I really wanted to go all in on mecha I'd have maybe three characters each have their own megazord made up of five different robots.

C'mon, Kira mechs look cool as heck.

If I agreed, that'd be the first time in years. I think after 2007 the designs of the mecha became more bad than good.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
I feel like Gransazer got kinda full in the latter third, but the concept behind it was great and I wish we had more "other" henshin hero series. Also, you did the typeset work for TV-N?

Yeah, that was in my anime sub days. I did timing, editing, and typesetting for... Faiz, Blade, Hibiki, a bit of Kabuto, and Gransazer. I think I almost started on Justirisers as well?

As a example, this fucking thing in the beginning?


The Gransazer logo in english following the text around? That took me forever, because you had to code typesets by hand back in the day.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,459
Yeah, that was in my anime sub days. I did timing, editing, and typesetting for... Faiz, Blade, Hibiki, a bit of Kabuto, and Gransazer. I think I almost started on Justirisers as well?

As a example, this fucking thing in the beginning?


The Gransazer logo in english following the text around? That took me forever, because you had to code typesets by hand back in the day.


I did the timing for some episodes of different anime and toku back in that time period and that shit was exhausting. I salute you 'cause I wouldn't have been able to do that kind of work for as long.
 

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,229
Saber feels like it's still reeling hard from the pandemic measures despite Toei's other live-action show Kiramager mostly bouncing back from it.

The cast of the show has been almost exclusively featuring Sword of Logos members and the Megid since episode 3. Extras have barely appeared and we rarely had episodes that required a character of the day. It feels like I'm watching a show about a secret war between magical swordsmen taking place in abandoned streets and factories.

It just feels like a extremely self-contained show with no real stakes in hand.

It's a part of the production rule changes since the pandemic started. Can only have a max of 20 people on set at a time or something like that I believe. You can see it in all the live action shows. I think that includes production staff.

In the last few weeks I've been catching up with my Kamen Rider. Finished 01 and while don't blame the pandemic for it kinda being meh half way through I enjoyed it. Mostly because the 01 suit is one of my favorites so far as a more casual rider fan. Already got a 01 figure from the conbini, gonna have to track down the 02 suit as well. Also glad they did not lean so heavily on the gimmick animal suits from the earlier episodes personally.

Almost done with Build as well and holy crap the body count in this show is nuts. Also a plot twist an episode. Its fun though. Have not started Sabre but I'll jump in in January maybe.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
It's a part of the production rule changes since the pandemic started. Can only have a max of 20 people on set at a time or something like that I believe. You can see it in all the live action shows. I think that includes production staff.
It feels extremely weird because on the same show you have scenes with 6 characters in the same room but then another with 2 or 3, and one or two being green screened.

Meanwhile I don't remember anybody being greenscreened in Kiramager at all? (Outside of obvious and understandable shots like shrunken Juuru running around the table)
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
idk why they double down on the mecha toys when sales are always dropping. The future is clearly in making the changer toys just as full-loaded as rider belts.

They didn't really double down on mech so much as all the roleplay stuff got cut down. Like there was basically just the Sixth stuff and the Bow after the first set. Sentai's budget got slashed due to the poor performance of the previous series, which is also why the series is going super 90s.

Saber feels like it's still reeling hard from the pandemic measures despite Toei's other live-action show Kiramager mostly bouncing back from it.

The cast of the show has been almost exclusively featuring Sword of Logos members and the Megid since episode 3. Extras have barely appeared and we rarely had episodes that required a character of the day. It feels like I'm watching a show about a secret war between magical swordsmen taking place in abandoned streets and factories.

It just feels like a extremely self-contained show with no real stakes in hand.


It feels extremely weird because on the same show you have scenes with 6 characters in the same room but then another with 2 or 3, and one or two being green screened.

Meanwhile I don't remember anybody being greenscreened in Kiramager at all? (Outside of obvious and understandable shots like shrunken Juuru running around the table)

What Kiramager does is that they do a lot of 1-3 face actor scenes and do quick cuts for scenes to ones with less people with the same applying to group shots. There's also a lot more secluded locations being used.

Like in the most recent episode you had the Mabusheena flashbacks and in the episode before that you had the cast split up a lot and the face actors not appearing all that much.
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,816
Zenkaiger's Press Conference is 21st December. Full team image poster is out there though I can't find the source.
 

Kreed

The Negro Historian
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,102
I like the robot member designs are based off of older series Mecha/robots. Wonder if the robots will have "human transformations" like Zyuohger?
 
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DioMuller

DioMuller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,468
Brazil
Rider with 6 heroes
Sentai with 1 (human) hero and four mechas

Things have changed. Exciting. Hope the ShiraP thing was a fake, lol.