Today is the International Day of Zero Tolerance for Female Genital Mutilation. FGM is a violation.

[Ketkat]

"Chief fanny defender"

I like this woman. For Americans, fanny is slang for vagina in the UK.

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What the hell? Why would people threaten women for speaking up about FGM?

 

[kristoffer]

What the hell? Why would people threaten women for speaking up about FGM?

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Deeply personal and important to some people, who consider it their duty to protect their daughters from their own sexual desires. In many places you cannot even get married without it.

 

[Deleted member 888]

What the hell? Why would people threaten women for speaking up about FGM?

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She's part of a charity which seeks to educate about/end FGM - https://twitter.com/DaughtersofEve

Anyone involved in the practice probably sees her as a threat, men especially. So, cue the usual attacks and threats towards anyone challenging them.

 

[kristoffer]

Looked up some numbers, for those who care (I always care).

http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-female-genital-cutting-20170206-story.html

The practice of female genital mutilation appears to be on the decline in a number of countries, according to recent surveys, a sign that years of advocacy work may be paying off.

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...of the 16 countries that reported new data since 2014, 12 said that the percentage of women and girls between the ages of 15 and 49 who were forced to undergo the procedure had declined since surveys carried out between 2003 and 2011.

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Researchers attribute the progress to the concerted efforts of governments and aid groups to combat the risky practice. Most of the countries studied had enacted laws or decrees prohibiting the cutting of a girl's genitalia for non-medical reasons.

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In Burkina Faso, nearly 90% of women in their 40s were forced to undergo the procedure, typically before they turned 5, the study found. But just 14% of girls aged between 5 and 9 had been cut.

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In other countries, however, change has been slower. In Mali, 77% of girls aged between 5 and 9 had been cut, compared with more than 90% of women in their 40s.

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its-working.gif

 

[Ketkat]

She's part of a charity which seeks to educate about/end FGM - https://twitter.com/DaughtersofEve

Anyone involved in the practice probably sees her as a threat, men especially. So, cue the usual attacks and threats towards anyone challenging them.

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That makes sense. Its still infuriating that people would send death threats to someone for speaking up for women.

 

[Deleted member 888]

 

[Zaph]

Yeah, it's a problem even in the UK

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...se-per-hour-uk-nhs-circumcision-a7564571.html

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While I think anyone who mutilates a child, or allows their child to be mutilated, should be thrown in jail, I fear aggressively pursuing convictions might lead to more children being denied access to medical care in favour of "solutions" within their community.

We already have a massive problem in this country with entire sub-communities and groups living parallel lives, almost entirely removed from society as we know it. I'm not sure what the solution is, but the FGM epidemic here feels like a symptom of the larger divisions in this country.

 

[Geoff]

Why is it proving so hard to get a conviction in the UK?

 

[Deleted member 888]

While I think anyone who mutilates a child, or allows their child to be mutilated, should be thrown in jail, I fear aggressively pursuing convictions might lead to more children being denied access to medical care in favour of "solutions" within their community.

We already have a massive problem in this country with entire sub-communities and groups living parallel lives, almost entirely removed from society as we know it. I'm not sure what the solution is, but the FGM epidemic here feels like a symptom of the larger divisions in this country.

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There's societal issues you sometimes have to handle with "kids gloves", for the greater good, but FGM should not be one of those things.

 

[ry-dog]

Is it religious thing? I'm really struggling to get my head around why 400 million parents think it's a good thing

 

[Deleted member 888]

Is it religious thing? I'm really struggling to get my head around why 400 million parents think it's a good thing

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It's more cultural than anything, but some loose ties to conservative religious beliefs that revolve around controlling women's bodies/sexuality/reproductive organs.

 

[Sinfamy]

Is it religious thing? I'm really struggling to get my head around why 400 million parents think it's a good thing

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It's entirely religious, there's no secular culture which practices this.
It's in the Fitra.

GTFO with this. There are Christian majority countries in Africa which do this too. Wiki Islam is a terrible source. It's entirely cultural and regional.

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That is true, but my question is where did those cultural practices develop.
Saying that Christian countries do it doesn't detract from what I said, it's entirely religious.
It's usually abrahamic religions that require circumcision. The example I gave is one such as that.
There are no secular cultures which participate in this.

 

[MrKlaw]

I can't separate this from male circumcision. I realise that may derail the thread but would a separate thread be justified for that separate discussion?

 

[Geoff]

It's more cultural than anything, but some loose ties to conservative religious beliefs that revolve around controlling women's bodies/sexuality/reproductive organs.

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It's a contentious point. FGM is often mixed into generally Islamophobic arguments and used as an example of Islam's incompatibility with western values. However, FGM (AFAIK) has zero basis in the Koran and is more of a cultural practice common in certain parts of Africa and Asia, which happen to be Muslim. It is also practiced in Christian areas and by some Ethiopian Jews (apparently). That being said I believe that some practitioners erroneously believe that FGM is an article of their faith (if such an attitude can be said to be erroneous).

 

[Deleted member 888]

I can't separate this from male circumcision. I realise that may derail the thread but would a separate thread be justified for that separate discussion?

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If you want.

Most people believe both are barbaric actions to carry out on a child. There are some slight differences, male circumcision can have medical requirements - https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/phimosis/

Surgery may be needed if a child or adult has severe or persistent balanitis or balanoposthitis that causes their foreskin to be painfully tight.

Circumcision (surgically removing part or all of the foreskin) may be considered if other treatments have failed, but it carries risks such as bleeding and infection.

This means it's usually only recommended as a last resort, although it can sometimes be the best and only treatment option.

Alternatively, surgery to release the adhesions (areas where the foreskin is stuck to the glans) may be possible. This will preserve the foreskin but may not always prevent the problem recurring.

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Men who are circumcised often have pain free experiences with sex as well, and the long-lasting medical issues are slim to none.

FGM is arguably more serious and detrimental, but yes, before any "what about men" posts which usually litter topics like this, you'll rarely find anyone advocating against FGM but celebrating male circumcision.

 

[Geoff]

I think male circumcision should be in a different thread. It is certainly worthy of discussion but, because it is a practice that is extremely familiar to our American friends, it is likely to dominate the thread.

 

[MrKlaw]

I think male circumcision should be in a different thread. It is certainly worthy of discussion but, because it is a practice that is extremely familiar to our American friends, it is likely to dominate the thread.

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although (promise I'll stop now) - the fact that it is more 'normalised' within US and western culture can be useful context. Are we pushing against FGM because it is less well known to our culture? Why are we specifically decrying these other cultures' views? Putting aside the physical act, it is said to be done to control womens' sexuality. Is that an actual quote from the relevant cultures, or are people projecting onto it from their position outside of that culture?

 

[Aske]

I think male circumcision should be in a different thread. It is certainly worthy of discussion but, because it is a practice that is extremely familiar to our American friends, it is likely to dominate the thread.

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And it's too "all lives matter". Yes, they do, but we're focusing on women right now. Every right-thinking person in developed countries is opposed to FGM, so the focus is about figuring out how we kill the practice. A major cultural shift is still necessary before the same number of westerners consider MGM similarly unethical. That's an entirely different discussion, and it doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[Deleted member 888]

although (promise I'll stop now) - the fact that it is more 'normalised' within US and western culture can be useful context. Are we pushing against FGM because it is less well known to our culture? Why are we specifically decrying these other cultures' views? Putting aside the physical act, it is said to be done to control womens' sexuality. Is that an actual quote from the relevant cultures, or are people projecting onto it from their position outside of that culture?

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We're pushing against it because it has serious health risks, no benefits and is child abuse.

Read this linked in the OP - http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

Cultural and social factors for performing FGM
The reasons why female genital mutilations are performed vary from one region to another as well as over time, and include a mix of sociocultural factors within families and communities. The most commonly cited reasons are:

• Where FGM is a social convention (social norm), the social pressure to conform to what others do and have been doing, as well as the need to be accepted socially and the fear of being rejected by the community, are strong motivations to perpetuate the practice. In some communities, FGM is almost universally performed and unquestioned.
• FGM is often considered a necessary part of raising a girl, and a way to prepare her for adulthood and marriage.
• FGM is often motivated by beliefs about what is considered acceptable sexual behaviour. It aims to ensure premarital virginity and marital fidelity. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido and therefore believed to help her resist extramarital sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed (type 3), the fear of the pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage extramarital sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM.
• Where it is believed that being cut increases marriageability, FGM is more likely to be carried out.
• FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are clean and beautiful after removal of body parts that are considered unclean, unfeminine or male.
• Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
• Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination.
• Local structures of power and authority, such as community leaders, religious leaders, circumcisers, and even some medical personnel can contribute to upholding the practice.
• In most societies, where FGM is practised, it is considered a cultural tradition, which is often used as an argument for its continuation.
• In some societies, recent adoption of the practice is linked to copying the traditions of neighbouring groups. Sometimes it has started as part of a wider religious or traditional revival movement.

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Notably

FGM is often motivated by beliefs about what is considered acceptable sexual behaviour. It aims to ensure premarital virginity and marital fidelity. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido and therefore believed to help her resist extramarital sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed (type 3), the fear of the pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage extramarital sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM.

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FGM is associated with cultural ideals of femininity and modesty, which include the notion that girls are clean and beautiful after removal of body parts that are considered unclean, unfeminine or male.

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[Geoff]

although (promise I'll stop now) - the fact that it is more 'normalised' within US and western culture can be useful context. Are we pushing against FGM because it is less well known to our culture? Why are we specifically decrying these other cultures' views? Putting aside the physical act, it is said to be done to control womens' sexuality. Is that an actual quote from the relevant cultures, or are people projecting onto it from their position outside of that culture?

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With respect, this is whatabouttery. If FGM is wrong, then it is wrong and should be challenged no matter the context. There is absolutely an argument to be made about hypocrisy when compared to attitudes towards circumcision but it's impossible to discuss that point without having it overshadow the original issue. A separate thread for that debate would be most welcome and interesting to read.

 

[Persephone]

Honestly just the mention of FGM makes me clench my legs in sympathy pain. I can't even imagine what kind of pain survivors have suffered and continue to suffer. Also friendly reminder to people comparing this to male circumcision: they are both bad, and both should stop. However, snipping off the foreskin which usually has no long-term health effects and can even be beneficial in some cases isn't really comparable to cutting off someone's clitoris, which contains more nerve endings than anywhere else in the human body. It's basically like if male babies regularly got their penises chopped off.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Honestly just the mention of FGM makes me clench my legs in sympathy pain. I can't even imagine what kind of pain survivors have suffered and continue to suffer. Also friendly reminder to people comparing this to male circumcision: they are both bad, and both should stop. However, snipping off the foreskin which usually has no long-term health effects and can even be beneficial in some cases isn't really comparable to cutting off someone's clitoris, which contains more nerve endings than anywhere else in the human body. It's basically like if male babies regularly got their penises chopped off.

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Yeah, I think some guys need to educate themselves a bit better to the extent of FGM



Nothing really NSFW above, illustrations are used, not actual photos. The illustrations above should even make a guys penis shrivel up. The stuff of nightmares.

Procedures
Female genital mutilation is classified into 4 major types.

• Type 1: Often referred to as clitoridectomy, this is the partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals), and in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
• Type 2: Often referred to as excision, this is the partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora (the inner folds of the vulva), with or without excision of the labia majora (the outer folds of skin of the vulva ).
• Type 3: Often referred to as infibulation, this is the narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the labia minora, or labia majora, sometimes through stitching, with or without removal of the clitoris (clitoridectomy).
• Type 4: This includes all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.

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[Davidion]

Utterly fucking unconscionable

 

[Shoot]

I've honestly never heard of this. Is this a religious thing or like a kidnapping/cult thing?

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It is not really religious in the sense that Islam does not require or mention it. It is a pre-Islamic practice that dates back to pharaonic times. It is primarily an African phenomenon but does occur elsewhere but is not nearly as prevalent.

Its origins are important because Islam is against pagan practices so this is one way to convince a population to stop if they are Muslim.

 

[m_shortpants]

It's entirely religious, there's no secular culture which practices this.
It's in the Fitra.

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GTFO with this. There are Christian majority countries in Africa which do this too. Wiki Islam is a terrible source. It's entirely cultural and regional.

 

[MrKlaw]

With respect, this is whatabouttery. If FGM is wrong, then it is wrong and should be challenged no matter the context. There is absolutely an argument to be made about hypocrisy when compared to attitudes towards circumcision but it's impossible to discuss that point without having it overshadow the original issue. A separate thread for that debate would be most welcome and interesting to read.

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Fair enough.

 

[Deleted member 888]

A group of Portsmouth midwives are marching against female genital mutilation after 85 women attended their maternity ward last year with signs that they had suffered it.

Priscilla Dike will be joined by her colleagues in Queen Alexandra Hospital's perineal clinic to raise awareness of the dangerous cultural practice, which involves the forced removal of part or all of the female genitalia.

The women will walk through the city centre holding placards from 1.45pm today to mark the International Day of Zero Tolerance for FGM. Police and Michael Lane, crime commissioner for Hampshire, will help them spread the word.

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https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/midwives-march-fgm-protest/

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

Hope that genital mutilation will end for everyone, this shit is not tolerable!

 

[Hey Please]

FGM is straight up torture. It alters the life of a woman forever for the worse. It's been a matter of pure power play and I am glad it is being outlawed like most draconian practices that are a direct result of unyielding patriarchy veiled as cultural/religious tradition.

 

[Fulminator]

Yup, it should be outlawed for sure and the doctor that performs it should forever lose their medical license.

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Absolutely. Fuck fgm.

 

[1000% H]

I straight up can't understand the mindset of someone who thinks this is okay. It's obviously fucked.

 

[Lord Brady]

Is elective labiaplasty included in this?

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Nope. That remains a legal form of FGM. Although you would assume the women voluntarily having it done don't think of it as mutilation, but rather improving their situation.

But some women believe there's very little difference:

Marge Berer, editor of Reproductive Health Matters writes:

The definition of [Female Genital Mutilation], according to the World Health Organization, includes any cutting of the labia, as well as part of or all of the clitoris. It is much more severe than what is being done by these plastic surgeons. But in all cultures, using a surgical procedure to conform to an external definition of what a woman's genitals are supposed to look like is mutilation. . . . Societal pressure makes mothers and grandmothers in other cultures put their daughters through FGM, and I believe societal pressure here of a different kind is making young women think they should have their labia cut off.

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[Deleted member 888]

Nope. That remains a legal form of FGM. Although you would assume the women voluntarily having it done don't think of it as mutilation, but rather improving their situation.

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Cosmetic surgery is for 18 year olds and over, and it does not involve removing the clitoris or sewing the vagina up.

Labiaplasty (also known as labioplasty, labia minora reduction, and labial reduction) is a plastic surgery procedure for altering the labia minora (inner labia) and the labia majora (outer labia), the folds of skin surrounding the human vulva. There are two main categories of women seeking cosmetic genital surgery: those with congenital conditions such as intersex, and those with no underlying condition who experience physical discomfort or wish to alter the appearance of their genitals because they believe they do not fall within a normal range.[1]

The size, colour, and shape of labia vary significantly, and may change as a result of childbirth, aging and other events.[1] Conditions addressed by labiaplasty include congenital defects and abnormalities such as vaginal atresia (absent vaginal passage), Müllerian agenesis (malformed uterus and fallopian tubes), intersex conditions (male and female sexual characteristics in a person); and tearing and stretching of the labia minora caused by childbirth, accident and age. In a male-to-female sexual reassignment vaginoplasty for the creation of a neovagina, labiaplasty creates labia where once there were none.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labiaplasty (warning, NSFW pictures)

I posted the FGM stages above

Procedures
Female genital mutilation is classified into 4 major types.

• Type 1: Often referred to as clitoridectomy, this is the partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals), and in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
• Type 2: Often referred to as excision, this is the partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora (the inner folds of the vulva), with or without excision of the labia majora (the outer folds of skin of the vulva ).
• Type 3: Often referred to as infibulation, this is the narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the labia minora, or labia majora, sometimes through stitching, with or without removal of the clitoris (clitoridectomy).
• Type 4: This includes all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.

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Girls should be well educated vaginas come in all shapes and sizes, and it's natural to look different, but as above outside of cosmetic reasons the surgery (labiaplasty) can have some medical reasoning.

Besides education, there can still be reasons to protest cosmetic surgery, but that post you quoted seems more to be trying to be "smart" than showing nuance between what FGM is and what cosmetic surgey is. FGM besides differing in severity from a labiaplasty on its own, is also most carried out on 5 year olds and under. Children cannot consent to plastic surgery in most countries.

 

[Lord Brady]

Cosmetic surgery is for 18 year olds and over, and it does not involve removing the clitoris or sewing the vagina up.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labiaplasty (warning, NSFW pictures)

Girls should be well educated vaginas come in all shapes and sizes, and it's natural to look different, but as above outside of cosmetic reasons the surgery can have some medical reasoning.

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It's still genital mutilation. And its more often than not done in a response to what the woman thinks society believes to be an acceptable looking vulva. As I quoted above, there are a lot of health experts that believe there is very little difference between forced FGM and voluntary FGM considering the voluntary FGM is being done due to societal pressures...or perceived societal pressures.

 

[Deleted member 888]

It's still genital mutilation. And its more often than not done in a response to what the woman thinks society believes to be an acceptable looking vulva. As I quoted above, there are a lot of health experts that believe there is very little difference between forced FGM and voluntary FGM considering the voluntary FGM is being done due to societal pressures...or perceived societal pressures.

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Yes it is, but FGM largely refers to my post I added more to, the 4 common stages, routinely faced by babies/children who cannot consent. Adulthood presents its own set of legal challenges when it comes to cosmetic surgery.

We can quite easy ban under 18's from having the knife put on them for anything resembling non-medical cutting.

 

[FeistyBoots]

Agreed. FGM is part of #MeToo as far as I'm concerned. It's an abhorrent practice.

 

[Deleted member 888]

This looks like it will be a great watch



Also on LBC today

Campaigner Nimco Ali told James O'Brien why we all need to know about FGM - and why she is campaigning so hard to stop it.

Nimco was born in Somaliland and moved to Manchester at the age of 4. She was seven when she was taken to Djibouti to be cut.

As an adult, she has become one of Britain's leading campaigners to end the practice of Female Genital Mutilation for good.

Speaking on LBC, she explained why people need to act on it: "FGM is the non-medical procedure of cutting or creating damage to the female anatomy. There is no medical reason, it's just symbolically done to girls.

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Another video at this link - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/why-you-need-to-know-about-fgm/

 

[Prophaniti]

Everyday is Zero Tolerance for Female Genital Mutilation day

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My very first thought.

 

[Clefargle]

Yeah any tolerance I have for other cultures ends with genital mutilation. Both male and female. If someone grows up and wants to do that, then I won't stand in their way. But infants and children can't chose this. It is imposed on them.

 

[Box]

Apologies for the bump. This thread came up in search and given how close we are to the day it seemed relevant to post rather than start another thread.

Today a Conservative MP (Sir Christopher Chope) blocked a bill protecting young girls from FGM.

The same man last week shouted "Object" during the debate leading to the bill.

BBC link with story

Sir Christopher argued his aim was to stop badly thought-out legislation. He said he had not been objecting to the substance of the issue, but wanted to see all legislation properly debated.

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Communities Secretary James Brokenshire said the government is "looking urgently" at how to get the law passed.

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and if the name rings a bell...

It is not the first time Sir Christopher has come under fire for objecting. He previously infuriated campaigners by objecting to a ban on upskirting last year.

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His focus on the process is either a deliberate attempt to delay the bill for reasons other than the process, or he is bewilderingly short sighted. The article states various people will aproach him this week to discuss today's block and I only hope they can talk some sense into him.

Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liz Truss said: "When I see one of my colleagues opposing a measure which could have saved girls' lives, could have saved girls from that horrendous experience, I'm absolutely appalled.

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Asked by the BBC's Andrew Marr whether he was proud to be Sir Christopher's colleague, Mr Brokenshire said: "I'm just hugely disappointed.

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and for anyone wondering like I was how one moron can stop a train...

But parliamentary rules mean it only requires one MP to shout "object" to a private member's bill which is listed for a second reading but not debated to block its progress.

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[Stinkles]

Yeah any tolerance I have for other cultures ends with genital mutilation. Both male and female. If someone grows up and wants to do that, then I won't stand in their way. But infants and children can't chose this. It is imposed on them.

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But God eventually sent some aids statistics (though qualified by individual hygiene statistics and multiple other social factors) to prove that it is his law and it is good.

 

[Android Sophia]

Apologies for the bump. This thread came up in search and given how close we are to the day it seemed relevant to post rather than start another thread.

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As this is new information, go ahead and make a new thread for this.