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To those who have finished The Last of Us: Part II, do you want there to be a Part III? [Contains Spoilers]
- Thread starter Magio
- Start date
i just finished the game a second time and yeah, I warmed up to a possible part III some time in the future focusing on Ellie and her path of redemption
I really want to have a third game where Ellie's the main character again so they can finish her story. She's basically Joel at the start of the first game so part III's gonna probably have her find something (like Joel meeting Ellie, Abby with Lev) so she can move on from Joel's death.
Just because I interpret a morally gray and emotionally ambiguous ending as something you don't agree with doesn't mean I don't get it...
The fact that she is at a low point is exactly what sets up for a sequel. This is the empire strikes back. Ellie is where Joel was at in the first game. The 3rd game will be her finding her purpose in some way. Her forgiving Joel was her first step at a redemption.
Again, Joel is not the hero here.
He caused all of this.
That scene is about Joel having the opportunity to confront the damage he caused to the one person he loved. Ellie telling him that you took away my meaning and purpose in this world without my consent, that right now I don't think I can ever forgive you for that sin, but maybe we can try. Providing a window of redemption for both characters, which you now know will never be possible.
It's heartbreaking because Ellie has found a path of potential reconciliation, as has Joel, and maybe a path to filling the hole Joel's damage created, and knowing that a couple days later that potential healing for Ellie will be undercut by Abby due to Joel's original sin. It is tragic.
Left at the end of it all without the ability to play their song and having lost everything. Which gets to how baffling it is to me how people don't see more for her character.
Right now my ideal for Part III is just about Ellie and her growing as a person from the ashes that we were left with at the end of Part II. Some major points for me:
1. I don't see Ellie as OK at all at the end of II. To me she's at most abandoned the path of vengeance and hate, realizing it just leads to more pain and loss and recognizing that she is capable of forgiveness and there is power in it. But beyond that Ellie seems pretty rock bottom, she's still have major survivors guilt. She's maybe accepted Joel's death, but I wouldn't say she overcome it. Nor has she really grappled with what she did in Seattle and everything that happened. The silver lining to her being at rock bottom is that means things can't get worse and she can now recover and redeem herself.
2. I'm not sure Jackson is a lasting home for Ellie, or at least somewhere that feels like home to her right now. Part II didn't give off the impression she really fit in there or was very close with anyone outside of Cat, Jesse and Dina. As well as Joel and Tommy. Joel and Jesse are dead, her relationship with Dina is all sorts of messed up and really strained, if not over, due to the events of Part II and Tommy has become a real angry and bitter dude. Who I doubt will get over things after she returns from Cali having left Abby alive. Whether she leave immediately or in time who knows, but I think finding a place in the world literally outside Jackson as well as figuratively could/should be an element of Part III. But I wouldn't be opposed to her and Dina coming back together in the end.
3. Finding a cure should not be an option. Joel's actions have to have lasting consequences for Ellie and the whole world. That Ellie wishes for it to happen to give her life and survival meaning doesn't make it worthwhile, if anything it's a reason not to have it happen. As much as the spores are a threat to humanity, humanity is more of a threat to itself. Ellie needs to find a reason and purpose in life beyond sacrificing herself and come to terms with her immunity and the fact that it cannot save the world and that she survived while others haven't. All that she can do it make something of her life for herself and those she cares for. And the rest of humanity needs to come together and find a way to live and cope with this more hostile world.
4. Abby and Ellie have no business meeting up again, especially as the cure thing is dumb and pointless. There is no realistic way for Abby and Ellie to ever meet up again beyond that, let along team up and have it work out. There's a huge gulf between ending the cycle of violence and vengeance and not wanting/needing to kill one another and actually being OK and working with each other. Abby and Ellie did horrendous things to one another. In no world, fictional or not, should those two be forced to work together. I think Abby and Lev could make for a decent stand alone expansion, but on the whole there's really no need or use for them in Part III that focuses on closing out the story of Ellie.
5. Ellie should not get some child/youngster side kick that gives her hope. Especially not JJ. It's a great trope, but it's been done twice now in the series. First with her and Joel and again with Abby and Lev. It's very effective, but three times is way too much. They need to be able to present a story and redemption of a character without the crutch of a younger person to help them finding meaning again in life. It would be very tragic if that's the only way they can think of to inspire hope and purpose in a character's life again. Ellie needs to find something else to help bring purpose to her life and to care about.
6. Having something happen to Dina, JJ or even Jackson as a whole to kick off things and be some call to action would feel cheap and easy. After the explosive and dramatic start of Part II it would be worthwhile for the events of Part III to take a different and more mundane approach. Relatively speaking. Have Ellie out in the world for one reason or another. She left Jackson behind completely, or she's distancing herself and going on long patrols or courier missions between settlements on her own. Have her get badly injured either by happenstance or from an attack and saved by some new community who nurses her back to health. Make it a kind of fresh start where Ellie helps them in kind and from there starts to build relationships with various individuals and the community as a whole. Start off simple and small and then work up to some bigger conflict with outside forces where Ellie finds she really cares for these people and this place and wants to protect it. Have it so that it's not just one person like a child or love interest that saves Ellie, but instead humanity as a whole, a community of people that she cares for and feels loved by and wants to protect and see survive and thrive.
1. I don't see Ellie as OK at all at the end of II. To me she's at most abandoned the path of vengeance and hate, realizing it just leads to more pain and loss and recognizing that she is capable of forgiveness and there is power in it. But beyond that Ellie seems pretty rock bottom, she's still have major survivors guilt. She's maybe accepted Joel's death, but I wouldn't say she overcome it. Nor has she really grappled with what she did in Seattle and everything that happened. The silver lining to her being at rock bottom is that means things can't get worse and she can now recover and redeem herself.
2. I'm not sure Jackson is a lasting home for Ellie, or at least somewhere that feels like home to her right now. Part II didn't give off the impression she really fit in there or was very close with anyone outside of Cat, Jesse and Dina. As well as Joel and Tommy. Joel and Jesse are dead, her relationship with Dina is all sorts of messed up and really strained, if not over, due to the events of Part II and Tommy has become a real angry and bitter dude. Who I doubt will get over things after she returns from Cali having left Abby alive. Whether she leave immediately or in time who knows, but I think finding a place in the world literally outside Jackson as well as figuratively could/should be an element of Part III. But I wouldn't be opposed to her and Dina coming back together in the end.
3. Finding a cure should not be an option. Joel's actions have to have lasting consequences for Ellie and the whole world. That Ellie wishes for it to happen to give her life and survival meaning doesn't make it worthwhile, if anything it's a reason not to have it happen. As much as the spores are a threat to humanity, humanity is more of a threat to itself. Ellie needs to find a reason and purpose in life beyond sacrificing herself and come to terms with her immunity and the fact that it cannot save the world and that she survived while others haven't. All that she can do it make something of her life for herself and those she cares for. And the rest of humanity needs to come together and find a way to live and cope with this more hostile world.
4. Abby and Ellie have no business meeting up again, especially as the cure thing is dumb and pointless. There is no realistic way for Abby and Ellie to ever meet up again beyond that, let along team up and have it work out. There's a huge gulf between ending the cycle of violence and vengeance and not wanting/needing to kill one another and actually being OK and working with each other. Abby and Ellie did horrendous things to one another. In no world, fictional or not, should those two be forced to work together. I think Abby and Lev could make for a decent stand alone expansion, but on the whole there's really no need or use for them in Part III that focuses on closing out the story of Ellie.
5. Ellie should not get some child/youngster side kick that gives her hope. Especially not JJ. It's a great trope, but it's been done twice now in the series. First with her and Joel and again with Abby and Lev. It's very effective, but three times is way too much. They need to be able to present a story and redemption of a character without the crutch of a younger person to help them finding meaning again in life. It would be very tragic if that's the only way they can think of to inspire hope and purpose in a character's life again. Ellie needs to find something else to help bring purpose to her life and to care about.
6. Having something happen to Dina, JJ or even Jackson as a whole to kick off things and be some call to action would feel cheap and easy. After the explosive and dramatic start of Part II it would be worthwhile for the events of Part III to take a different and more mundane approach. Relatively speaking. Have Ellie out in the world for one reason or another. She left Jackson behind completely, or she's distancing herself and going on long patrols or courier missions between settlements on her own. Have her get badly injured either by happenstance or from an attack and saved by some new community who nurses her back to health. Make it a kind of fresh start where Ellie helps them in kind and from there starts to build relationships with various individuals and the community as a whole. Start off simple and small and then work up to some bigger conflict with outside forces where Ellie finds she really cares for these people and this place and wants to protect it. Have it so that it's not just one person like a child or love interest that saves Ellie, but instead humanity as a whole, a community of people that she cares for and feels loved by and wants to protect and see survive and thrive.
You continue to basically mirror my thoughts and sentiments, but much more articulately and fleshed out lol.
As a side note, the other issue I have with cure arcs in almost any post apocalyptic genre is that they are basically an out clause for all the fucked up shit you used the genre to explore in the first place.
The only way I really could appreciate it is as a way to explore how humanity and civilization can not just magically re-emerge after it has devolved so much into barbarism. And I think in this series, which is essentially at it's core Ellie''s journey, an arc where that is the implication at the end of Ellie's journey is a major cop out to everything the series has narratively built and expressed to this point. Like, good deal Ellie, we built your arc in a circle and now you can sacrifice yourself so the Seraphites and Wolves can mindlessly kill each other without the distraction of zombies, probably massacring the new fireflies for the cure and squandering it, cool.
Maybe if they went the direction of a cure not killing her and it continuing to leave her unfulfilled because the above inevitably happens I could be interested in exploring the aftermath of that scenario. But that sort of path is really the only direction I could find thematically interesting that involves a cure. Nothing Neil has set up so far makes a magical cure the earned capstone to this world or Ellie.
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I looked at the poll and was like WTF cause No was leading but then I had to factor there's four yes options and only one no option.
It's difficult, because part of Ellie's redemption would be turning away from violence. But it's impossible to do this game without some kind of violence - that's just how these games work.
I mean you will always have infected, but it would be interesting to explore the gameplay of Ellie attempting to avoid mindlessly murdering humans she comes into contact with.
...Of course you could just create some sort of ultra evil fascist style wannabe imperial power looking to reunite the country through subjugation or something. Like a post apocalyptic Genghis Kahn, Hitler, or Alexander The Great. Creating enough moral cover like with the rattlers to avoid walking over the themes and character growth in your last game...But that also seems kind of cheap.
Abby also isn't a victim in all this.
There is no Ellie to hate if Abby doesn't let her uncontrollable need for vengeance at any cost consume her(remember she was willing to murder and torture, and implied by Owen's prodding and her disgust, do whatever it takes to get Joel).
In the end both are imperfect people, that, frankly, are what they are because of Joel. Who is who is because of his own trauma that wasn't of his making either. Which is part of the brilliance of this game and the way it explores the human condition. Everyone is forced into objectively immoral actions because of the immorality imposed upon them through their forced experiences. And everyone has a lot of objectively good qualities(remember, Ellie's central moral conflict is a sense of loss of purpose and survivor's guilt because she couldnt sacrifice herself for a civilization that is looking for excuses to tear itself apart, and largely doesn't deserve her sacrifice). But they still do what they do, they still carry out evil acts when they could of chosen differently, even if they still pursued their sense of justified vengeance. So you are both able to empathize and see the threads tugging them, but can't truly forgive any one person and not the other unless you apply unequal standards of judgement and empathy.
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The only reason Abby didn't just kill Dina and Ellie was because Lev showed up. I'm positive she even felt vindictive when killing a pregnant woman like Ellie did to Mel could be fucked up payback.
"Healing and forgiveness" is going to be a difficult theme for a game that largely seems to be about stabbing people in the throat.
It's still a choice Abby made. Lev may have been the one to remind her in the moment, but Abby chose to let go of her vengeance even though the deaths of her friends had just happened.
Completely agree. Let it rest. Only thing I want is the multiplayer mode.
And the only reason she didn't allow her people to kill Ellie and Tommy was because of Owen speaking up and intervening, and seemingly the weight he carries with her.
There is a pretty reasonable case to make that Abby never really learned many of the lessons with regards to her role in perpetuating the cycle of violence. She got her vengeance and it felt hollow, and she realized without that drive she had nothing, and only after that actualization(and through the pressure of others, see: Lev) was she willing to deescalate and break the cycle of vengeance on her end.
Ellie for all of the game is where Abby was pre-Joel's murder, and to her credit she was willing to stop before doing what Abby couldn't, and therefore prevented initiating a new cycle of perpetual vengeance and violence(Lev wanting to avenge his Joel in Abby). Doing for Lev and herself what Abby was unable to do for herself and Elllie.
And in that context it is hard for me to get why people can despise Ellie and not Abby. Ultimately, Ellie is the stronger person in this story. She is the only one that puts an actual stop to the perpetuation of violence at a critical juncture. She is the only one that seems capable of seeing through her pursuer's eyes with clarity and empathy. Abby required seeing her vengeance through, feeling empty, and still requiring additional experiences to get to relatively the same place. If Ellie had required the same, part III would be Lev looking to kill her or Having to be the bigger person to break the cycle.
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Turn it into a negotiation simulator with the goal of ending every encounter non-violently :B
Part 3 needs to open with Ellie as a Samurai for some big empire.
-10 years later
-Openly telling people about her immunity
-Joined a big town, maybe Los Angeles, or San Francisco (thematically it's as far away from the farm as you could get, she needs to be running from the future she couldn't have, Joel went to a big city too, needs to stay near Abby tho)
-Employed as an Infected hunter
-Increasingly reckless hunts as she doesn't care about living
-Big Hat
-Abby is now leader of the Fireflies and grew it massively, they get roped together against common enemy, probably a hyper mutated intelligent infected, because why not
-10 years later
-Openly telling people about her immunity
-Joined a big town, maybe Los Angeles, or San Francisco (thematically it's as far away from the farm as you could get, she needs to be running from the future she couldn't have, Joel went to a big city too, needs to stay near Abby tho)
-Employed as an Infected hunter
-Increasingly reckless hunts as she doesn't care about living
-Big Hat
-Abby is now leader of the Fireflies and grew it massively, they get roped together against common enemy, probably a hyper mutated intelligent infected, because why not
I would definitely be interested in a third and final chapter that concludes Ellie and Abby's stories. But I'm more than willing to wait until ND is sure they've got the right idea for it. If that's another 7 years, then so be it.
It's funny how divisive the story is. I thought it ended perfectly. One of my favorite endings in a game in ages
I want what Part III to be what Part II was mostly advertised to be, Ellie's story. I can't be the only lesbian burned by the bait-and-switch that Druckmann and Gross pulled here. Ellie's story isn't over and what Part II puts her through and then where it ultimately leaves her is tragic and unsatisfying in way that is a tad cruel. I can't trust Druckmann, shouldn't have in the first place, so he would need to find a lesbian or bi/pan woman to lead the narrative for Part III to convince me to give it a shot should it come to fruition.
That said, it can't just be Ellie's story since I think Dina deserves a bigger role. She doesn't have the happiest background either even prior to Part II. Also Part II didn't do enough, in my opinion, to flesh her out as a character. She's quite capable herself when it comes to danger, so she could easily be a playable character as well.
Since Part II introduced Lev I don't think it would be fair to transmasc players to not include him in some capacity, which means Abby would also have to be involved in the story as well.
That said, it can't just be Ellie's story since I think Dina deserves a bigger role. She doesn't have the happiest background either even prior to Part II. Also Part II didn't do enough, in my opinion, to flesh her out as a character. She's quite capable herself when it comes to danger, so she could easily be a playable character as well.
Since Part II introduced Lev I don't think it would be fair to transmasc players to not include him in some capacity, which means Abby would also have to be involved in the story as well.
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I'd gladly take a sequel focusing on Ellie. Seems like could still take her story in interesting ways after that ending. I'd be quite okay with bringing Dina back as well, best new character in 2 imo.
That said, the world is interesting enough , and Naughty Dog competent enough, that it could easily take completely new characters too.
That said, the world is interesting enough , and Naughty Dog competent enough, that it could easily take completely new characters too.
To her credit, though, Abby's path to vengeance was filled with far less strife, bloodshed, and personal loss; what she did was horrible, but she could walk away from it all without thinking she was sacrificing her loved ones to do it (that all came after the fact). Ellie continued to seek vengeance knowing what it cost. Abby sought the validation of her peers almost obsessively, pressuring Owen, Mel, and the others to seek out and murder Joel in part, I think, to make herself feel certain that she was right in doing so.
You also have to remember that Ellie absolutely did torture Nora and murder several of Abby's friends. Her hands are far from clean, and while she ultimately stopped herself short of 'completing' her vengeance, that doesn't change the things she did.
On topic: I'm mixed on it. The unsatisfying and bittersweet nature of the ending feels in line with the characters' actions of the game and I can't help but think a third entry might be a bit cruel to them, considering how many people will inevitably die along the way. There's still room for a (relatively) happy ending for these characters I think, but I have to wonder if that's better left to the imagination. If they can come up with a compelling story, though, I'm all for it.
I would'nt mind a Part 3. I always thought we didn't need Part 2 either, then I played it and I think it's better than the first in every way. But if they're gonna make Part 3, I'd rather have a new IP first. So instead of Uncharted 5, something entirely new on PS5, followed by The Last of Us: Part 3.
Why are you guessing that? because my opinion differs from yours?
I played and finished both.
And Ellie chose to let go of her vengeance too.
I'm really not understanding this Ellie or Abby position people are taking.
Both are as bad / good as each other.
Abby achieves her redemption with saving Lev and striking out to find her home with the Fireflies.
Now we need a third game to resolve Ellie's story.
After one I didn't want a sequel and after playing this it didn't change my mind. This game added so little to the first that I don't care for a possible third game.
the setting itself is so bland that doesn't need to be reused. Characters are the good part of this series, especially in the sequel with just a thin plot that doesn't say anything interesting by the end.
the setting itself is so bland that doesn't need to be reused. Characters are the good part of this series, especially in the sequel with just a thin plot that doesn't say anything interesting by the end.
It should be pointed out the game implies pretty heavy handidly that Abby absolutely would have done just as bad as Ellie to get to Joel. As Owen and Abby look out at Jackson and Owen rightfully points out how they aren't just going to give him up, and Abby's counter is to tell Owen, then, we'll make them. To which after Owen expressed alarm at the cold implications she is making, Abby is simply disgusted and hurt from the sense her people would not be willing to go to the extremes she is, so she resolved to do like Ellie and go one man army, starting with ambushing a patrol....She just had the fortune of Joel falling into her lap.
And keep in mind, from Ellie's perspective Nora and CO. are not innocent bystanders(and they aren't), they literally held her and Tommy down while they tortured and killed her father, then planned on killing her and Tommy to "tie up loose ends" had Owen not intervened. Which isn't to say Ellie was correct or anything, she wasn't but you can understand why she sees them as complicit in the brutality and murder(because they were).
And you are right that it absolutely didn't change the things Ellie did, which is one reason I was baffled yesterday by some of the comments along the lines that Ellie fully had her redemption arc, and the game ended in a place where her journey as a character was complete. Because for all the critiques you could lay at the feet of Abby, Ellie has her own as well. For instance at no point in her journey is it clear she has confronted and reconciled the innocent lives on the other side she has taken. She clearly is broken by what that vengeance did to her and her friends, but like Abby never truly recognizing her role in creating monster Ellie, it's not apparent Ellie has confronted or inventoried the collateral damage she is responsible for either(I mean at the end she was basically willing to kill Lev to provoke Abby the way Abby was willing to torture innocents or go Commando on Jackson to get Joel).
Abby served her purpose, she doesn't need to be in the sequel. The cure shouldn't even be a part of any future content, that ship has sailed. Also, I don't know where this Ellie has a baby stuff keeps coming from but it's kinda ridiculous and out of nowhere.
I'm not positive we need a third game but if we get one it needs to wrap up where Ellie goes from here. No Dina, no Jackson, no Fireflies, no old life. When Ellie left the farm I imagine she left the area and I'd like to see her travels to a new state, by herself, to find a new home and new people to settle down with. Basically a rebirth of sorts.
Barring that, the only other thing I'd be interested in is a prequel with Joel and Tommy that starts directly after the opening scene of the first game.
I'm not positive we need a third game but if we get one it needs to wrap up where Ellie goes from here. No Dina, no Jackson, no Fireflies, no old life. When Ellie left the farm I imagine she left the area and I'd like to see her travels to a new state, by herself, to find a new home and new people to settle down with. Basically a rebirth of sorts.
Barring that, the only other thing I'd be interested in is a prequel with Joel and Tommy that starts directly after the opening scene of the first game.
This is basically me. I voted yes to a part 3 with Ellie, but I would also be ok if this is it as it was such an amazing game. But I def would choose to have a part 3...makes sense too, ND's next game could be there sci-fi game hopefully, then Part 3 could close out PS5 like it's done the last two consoles.