User Banned (1 Day): Trolling
Maybe folks who don't speak English as their first language had a harder time understanding the story so it didn't make them as miserable.
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TLOU2, GOTY, and US Media
- Thread starter Deleted member 31333
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Haha. I think this must be the answer. Maybe I should compare against all English speaking countries.
If I had to guess, maybe smaller games get relatively more marketing and coverage in the US because it's a bigger market overall, so publishers think it's more worth it to invest there. I really have no idea though, just guessing, someone with data would know more.
hey, wait a minute, are you sure it's not because you're scared, which apparently seems to be a not unique reasoning here?!
What is it with TLOU2 fans and thinking the story is somehow difficult to understand and that if you didn't like the game, or didn't like it that much, you just didn't get it? The story is simple, and the game is localized. What a silly argument.
Stop pretending like not having TLOU2 as your GOTY somehow means you didn't understand it or appreciate it for what it was.
Dude, I'm pretty sure that guy was literally shitting on the game lol.
Like: "Oh they liked it more because they couldn't understand how awful it actually was".
Man, I've been so good at keeping these TLOU2 threads ignored, got triggered by a comment I didn't read properly and worked myself.
I need to go back into retirement!
I deserve this L so I'm going to leave it there
I could tell you last October that this would've been how things turned out.
Hades sucked the oxygen in the room and was both a media and dev darling on Twitter, which was heavily US/UK-based in terms of games media/developer representation. And while TLOU2 was liked - it wasn't the kind of adoration given to the same level of Mass Effect 2/BotW or its ilk, and that's not even talking about the other issue share of "buts" like the leaks, extremely toxicity and more deeply rooted criticisms on portrayal of diversity, its crunch, etc.
And even then, I leaned more heavily in expecting Hades to have won more than what it did (globally) but that only speaks to how overrepresented the US games media scene are on Twitter.
Honest this should be the first reply, and one-and-done.
But to play devil's advocate, when looking at an aggregate data of review outcome with a sample size of >300, that is sufficient enough of a sample size to analyze the information that is irrelevant to any individual variable.
Hades sucked the oxygen in the room and was both a media and dev darling on Twitter, which was heavily US/UK-based in terms of games media/developer representation. And while TLOU2 was liked - it wasn't the kind of adoration given to the same level of Mass Effect 2/BotW or its ilk, and that's not even talking about the other issue share of "buts" like the leaks, extremely toxicity and more deeply rooted criticisms on portrayal of diversity, its crunch, etc.
And even then, I leaned more heavily in expecting Hades to have won more than what it did (globally) but that only speaks to how overrepresented the US games media scene are on Twitter.
Honest this should be the first reply, and one-and-done.
But to play devil's advocate, when looking at an aggregate data of review outcome with a sample size of >300, that is sufficient enough of a sample size to analyze the information that is irrelevant to any individual variable.
That's pretty xenophobic. As if the 1.5 billion+ other English speakers spread out over the world just couldn't figure it out. It's not exactly a Thomas Pynchon novel.
Yeah, we are all dumb as hell and don't know how to change languages.
Reading comprehension, guys. That poster was shitting on the game's story ... as in, they couldn't understand it, therefore they enjoyed it more (because the story is "miserable").
they just liked hades more, nothing deeper than that.
i don't think it's cuz they played one game and not the other, cuz if you look at the lists 95% of the time both are on there.
i don't think it's cuz they played one game and not the other, cuz if you look at the lists 95% of the time both are on there.
ah yes the incredibly complex lingustic challenges of TLOU2.
Imagine thinking TLOU2 is art house in the first place, at least Death Stranding sort of fits that description
Yeah. TLoU Part 2 is killing it when it comes to awards.
I think even broke the record for nominations for NAVGTR.
Same for The Game Awards before.
I think even broke the record for nominations for NAVGTR.
Same for The Game Awards before.
Lol, I understood it perfectly. I don't really care if the post was intended to shit on the game, it's a simply dumb joke to make, especially when it's regarding a game with very simplistic language.
It was a controversial game, both because of the narrative choices and because of the crunch.
Lots of possible theories. Could be a lot of US sites didn't want to reward developer crunch. Could be some sites didn't like the controversial choices with the narrative. Could be the timing of the game releasing during a depressing time. Could be a combination of all of the above. Or could be that people working at sites simply liked other games more. None of the viable theories have anything to do with the quality of the game though, (technical, art and gameplay/mechanics) which was top of its class.
Lots of possible theories. Could be a lot of US sites didn't want to reward developer crunch. Could be some sites didn't like the controversial choices with the narrative. Could be the timing of the game releasing during a depressing time. Could be a combination of all of the above. Or could be that people working at sites simply liked other games more. None of the viable theories have anything to do with the quality of the game though, (technical, art and gameplay/mechanics) which was top of its class.
What's to really understand? They didn't like it all that much and preferred Hades. And that's completely fine, I don't really understand why folks are getting tilted over this. The constant back and forth between people mad at TLOU2 winning [x] GOTY and others mad at TLOU2 not winning [x] GOTY has been tedious af. Just move on fam.
US folks having shit taste is nothing new.
This post is hilarious because, uh, it's pretty clear that poster is shitting on the game and look how you've taken it. Like if that's too complex for you then who knows fam 🤷🏽‍♂️
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So you understood the post but responded in such a way as to indicate you didn't?
By the way, the discussion about the localization aspect of the two games is ironic, as Hades's localization was panned for being terrible.
I find the type of concensus we tend to see with GOTY awards quite perplexing for such a diverse medium. All you have to do to judge the best movies of the year is park your ass on a seat and look at a screen. With gaming it could be any number of actions. Yet somehow there's always an argument about best picture Oscar pick but gamers are like, "Indeed, this is the most meritous game of all. Surely it ought to be bestowed with commedations most numerous ohoho"
Why does one have to recognize any one game in particular? Hades coming out ahead at a number of outlets, ignoring the deservedness for a second, is indicative that outlets can reject the "big" tentpole projects because surely we have to recognize and validate videogames as art in 2020. Maybe, just maybe, they liked Hades more.
Why does one have to recognize any one game in particular? Hades coming out ahead at a number of outlets, ignoring the deservedness for a second, is indicative that outlets can reject the "big" tentpole projects because surely we have to recognize and validate videogames as art in 2020. Maybe, just maybe, they liked Hades more.
This. That's the issue when trying to find the one "winner" from yearly plethora of amazing games. There are so many thinks to love and valid opinions/preferences/tastes amongst them. We should be celebrating that diversity in gaming and recognize more then just one over all the others. It's just sad and hostile when fans start pushing their opinion as the only right one and dismiss others, just because "my preference is the most popular one".
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I actually find the difference in picks between US/English speaking outlets fort game of the year to be interesting one the last five years. There was a post in the media awards tracking thread that had a breakdown of US/UK/RoW awards and this is what my thoughts were then:
Anyway, both games are great - happy they're being recognised across various outlets across the world
Obviously this won't be the only reason, and I think there are definitely other factors to be considered for Hades and TLOU 2. Would be interested in seeing a country level breakdown of what games wrong the overall prize but that does seem like a bit of a laborious process.
Anyway, both games are great - happy they're being recognised across various outlets across the world
I think on of the main reason is because there are a far greater number of Us/ English language critics, so there's a greater need to have a more unique opinion. Not that those opinions are not totally valid but a critic with more individual taste are more likely to generate clicks.
Let's be honest, most of WW does not "deserve"* to be counted. I say this as someone from a non-English country who at some point even contributed to one of those sites that gets listed on gotypicks. I don't mean to disparage any of my WW brethren, but 95% are clearly hobby sites that can just about pay the hosting bills as they run on young volunteers who dream of sometimes getting into or simply being recognized by the big gaming industry. They are more likely to be infatuated by AAA and less likely to be able to play a wide variety of games because they can't make a living out of it. They're even categorically not experts because experts know they can get paid. That's kind of why I stopped contributing myself. It was only ever intended to do something nice back for a community, but after a short while I was like why am I adding 5 hours of unpaid overtime to my regular games work.
The vast majority of professional games journalism simply happens to be in the US and UK, and while its not above choosing stinkers like DA Inquisition, the times are changing. (At the same time, probably the majority of US sites are also not professional.) Conversely, most of WW should more accurately be considered audience awards, and not even audiences as big as some of the English sites.
*because gaming is srs bznz /s
The vast majority of professional games journalism simply happens to be in the US and UK, and while its not above choosing stinkers like DA Inquisition, the times are changing. (At the same time, probably the majority of US sites are also not professional.) Conversely, most of WW should more accurately be considered audience awards, and not even audiences as big as some of the English sites.
*because gaming is srs bznz /s
Fully agree with this, it is reaching the last jedi levels of not being able to discuss it on this forum.
If you say you love it you get those weird conspiracy people saying it is impossible to like it and you are wrong.
If you say you don't like it you get posts that not very subtitle call everyone that doesn't like the game bigots and sexists.
It sucks.
Yup. Jeuxvideo.com is far from anything "auteur-lovers". And if we judge by their forums, their public is even worse.
In the french outlets, most of the reviewers often feel very "surface level" on their story appreciations and mostly concerned about gameplay first and foremost. And yeah, very "bro" in general. If not, they often just are pure chills "Chièze" style. So... Yeah, i don't really see them to be much more capable of "getting" the story of TLoU2 than their US colleagues.
I'd say it's just because the game ended up quite polarizing, it's either you love it entirely or despise the story for one reason or another. So logically, the overall review scores and GOTY awards had to be more inconsistant than a more "consensual" game. Seems normal to me, as much as i love this game.
There was a lot of toxicity surrounding the tlou2 coverage whether it be crunch hours, twitter fight, the leak and plot. There were articles that a studio head like this shouldn't be given best director award. After all of this i can see why majority of us media didn't go for tlou2. Hades was not only a critical darling but had positive coverage all around it even regarding staff work hours etc.
Rest of the world doesn't care much about such things imo. Also like you said nearly all of the reader vote awards of us sites went to tlou2.
Both are amazing games earning merits.
This is also not the first game where the majority critics in a certain region did not agree with the overall goty winner.
Rest of the world doesn't care much about such things imo. Also like you said nearly all of the reader vote awards of us sites went to tlou2.
Both are amazing games earning merits.
This is also not the first game where the majority critics in a certain region did not agree with the overall goty winner.
I'd say they're even more shallow than that, their TOP10 has always mostly been a TOP10 graphics/tech. And yeah TLOU2 looks great...
Being from Europe, it seems to me that the body of critics in the US is more connected. People are more in touch with each other.
That way, it's easier for a trend (like the one you observe) to gain momentum.
And there's also the first TLoU "effect". Like in MVP voting in sports, analysts in the US tend to intentionally avoid celebrating an entity who was already plentifully celebrated in the past.
That way, it's easier for a trend (like the one you observe) to gain momentum.
And there's also the first TLoU "effect". Like in MVP voting in sports, analysts in the US tend to intentionally avoid celebrating an entity who was already plentifully celebrated in the past.
Is it just a word of mouth thing? Hades is at a level where that is more important to be noticed than the heavily marketed AAA stuff. Maybe talk about "you have to play this" spread more in English speaking press circles.
I find the success of indies to even get noticed by the press can be hit or miss and maybe that nature can also be highly localised to certain areas of the world too.
I find the success of indies to even get noticed by the press can be hit or miss and maybe that nature can also be highly localised to certain areas of the world too.
Arguments I find wholly unconvincing:
Probably is a much more boring explanation of just underlying tastes among the media class of US vs. non-US are different. Additionally, US media is more mingled than gaming media at large, so when an unexpected GOTY contender like Hades comes around, everyone gets pushed to play it eventually.
- Pandemic and other events of 2020 especially impacted Americans and that reflected poorly on a grim game like TLOU2
- US media fears the gamer bro backlash
- US is more disapproving of unethical practices in development so that softened support for TLOU2 over Europe et al
- Exposure to TLOU2 via PS4 was higher than exposure to Hades via Switch and PC in Europe et al
Probably is a much more boring explanation of just underlying tastes among the media class of US vs. non-US are different. Additionally, US media is more mingled than gaming media at large, so when an unexpected GOTY contender like Hades comes around, everyone gets pushed to play it eventually.
IMO Hades deserves to be winning everything. It's an absolutely brilliant game that combines a fantastic gameplay loop with amazing looking visuals and fantastic music while also telling a wholly unique story that makes perfect use of its own gameplay mechanics in a way I haven't really seen in a game before.
I'm sure TLOU2 is great and all (I wouldn't know, don't have a PS4), but it's hard for me to imagine that it is a better realization of what gaming could be than Hades.
In gaming journalism, it's quite literally the opposite in my experience.
Of course I cannot speak for all non-US gaming journalism, but my interactions (and work) with Dutch and Flemish gaming outlets always revealed one thing: they are mostly very, very juvenile, mostly unprofessional and cater to a mostly very young or "bro" audience.
And it's not fully the fault of those gaming outlets because they simply don't have the funds to do better, but a lot of gaming outlets over here are completely unprofessional. They "hire" people in high school, maybe in college who are willing to work for free as long as they get games and do not actually have much funds to operate independently and the journalists that do get paid are usually freelancers who work for all of them.
I mean, here in the Netherlands the biggest gaming outlets are basically the same, as they share like 75% of their writers.
So while in cinema Europe may have this rich critic-led cinema culture where "auteurs" are respected more than in the US (which isn't entirely correct, but I'll give you this one), in gaming journalism we are far behind on the US.
This actually plays into a reason, I think, why The Last of Us 2 won more GOTY's than Hades internationally, as I have personally known writers for the Dutch gaming press who out of principle wouldn't give a not-AAA game the GOTY, because GOTY is "supposed" to celebrate the biggest and best in gaming, and an indie game can never be the biggest or some shit.
I'm sure TLOU2 is great and all (I wouldn't know, don't have a PS4), but it's hard for me to imagine that it is a better realization of what gaming could be than Hades.
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In gaming journalism, it's quite literally the opposite in my experience.
Of course I cannot speak for all non-US gaming journalism, but my interactions (and work) with Dutch and Flemish gaming outlets always revealed one thing: they are mostly very, very juvenile, mostly unprofessional and cater to a mostly very young or "bro" audience.
And it's not fully the fault of those gaming outlets because they simply don't have the funds to do better, but a lot of gaming outlets over here are completely unprofessional. They "hire" people in high school, maybe in college who are willing to work for free as long as they get games and do not actually have much funds to operate independently and the journalists that do get paid are usually freelancers who work for all of them.
I mean, here in the Netherlands the biggest gaming outlets are basically the same, as they share like 75% of their writers.
So while in cinema Europe may have this rich critic-led cinema culture where "auteurs" are respected more than in the US (which isn't entirely correct, but I'll give you this one), in gaming journalism we are far behind on the US.
This actually plays into a reason, I think, why The Last of Us 2 won more GOTY's than Hades internationally, as I have personally known writers for the Dutch gaming press who out of principle wouldn't give a not-AAA game the GOTY, because GOTY is "supposed" to celebrate the biggest and best in gaming, and an indie game can never be the biggest or some shit.
I find it weird that people are conflating "outside of the US" with "don't speak English", as if the UK, Canada, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand don't exist. Or as if English weren't widely spoken in former colonies in Africa, the middle east and south east Asia, and used between many of these countries as a lingua franca. India alone has over 120 million English speakers, and there are a lot of Indian, African and SEA tech & gaming sites in English.