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zeuanimals

Member
Nov 23, 2017
1,453
A snuff film is a snuff film if a real person is killed for it, otherwise it's just a movie.

Nobody is going to die in real life because you killed a character in a videogame, no matter how visceral the death is.

That's not the point. People are already disgusted at the violence in this game. It's only gonna get more disgusting and realistic as technology advances. So people either gotta roll with the times or just avoid those games, but I really doubt too many games are gonna go all in on this stuff. There'd be too much controversy and it may hurt the game's sales.
 

Putarorex

Member
Sep 16, 2019
75
Looks amazing. The animations are awesome and it is going to fantastic to explore the environments they have created. It is going to be a tough three weeks.

It looks like it may end up being very stressful to play though. I trust Naughty Dog will be good with the pacing, but I am wondering if it will be one of those games that I need to take breaks with.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,960
People do complain about that kind of stuff. For the most part in Far Cry, you don't have to kill a single animal if you don't want to, same with Red Dead. In this you don't have a choice and it triggers people.
It's quite the opposite. I don't know about Far Cry, but in RDR2 is impossible to finish the game without killing one animal, in the TLOU2 you absolutely have a choice and can complete the story without killing a dog. It's kind of crazy how little backlash games like those two and Assassins' Creed, Monster Hunter and many others have compared to the commotion around TLoU. Specially when you take into account how there's much more animals to kill in other games.
 

~Millet~

Member
Jan 21, 2019
1,077
User Warned: Hostility
So if you kill humans or another life forms it is fine, but killing dogs is bad.

Fucking hypocrites.
 

Infcabbage

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Portland, Oregon
Also, this entire dog debate for me reinforces one thing that I believe about this game. If ND wants people to be bothered by violence and its consequences, making it real will simply not cut it. No matter how real it looks, people will still play Ellie as a terminator, hunting down and killing people by their dozens, with the only thing bothering them is a dog here and there.
This is the big thing for me as well. They try to make the violence as real as possible and want you to be uncomfortable or remorseful for killing people, but the game still has multitudes of systems designed to make the game enjoyable to play? You're encouraged to make Ellie commit violent acts then told to feel bad about it, that's not great narrative design. To be fair that's how the first game was as well, but this one seems to be going all-in on the idea, and the problem with that for me is that the gameplay betrays the intent of the story. By the End of Last Of US 1 I didn't care if whether any of the doctors or survivors at the medical facility were people with families and fears and wants, they were simply presented as obstacles that the player is supposed to mow down. It's a very difficult thing to tackle with a video game using the lense or realism.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,305
You keep ignoring that it can track her scent
There's most likely a hard coded limit to just how far you can be tracked via scent. Like in every other video game.

Not impossible, but exceedingly more difficult. Again, they walk through all of this in the earlier segments of the State of Play. You're conveniently ignoring the fact that the dog is still a threat after she drops in because you've got tunnel vision on the dog kill.
I understand the hype train but I have a good enough understanding of how AI is typically balanced to know that your hypothetical is flawed. You are talking about the AI and what they'd do as if it's a situation with a real dog and real people.

Why are people assuming that this actually happened??
-They've gone on record stating that they watched stuff for reference
-all art is made with real life reference, they didn't achieve the end result that is this game's depiction of violence by winging it

And yes, that does take a toll.
 

True_fan

Banned
Mar 19, 2020
391
How did the game look? I plan to pick up a ps4 in the next few months and play all these 3rd person over the shoulder games i have heard so much about. Game #1 will be tlou remastered.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,297
New York
This is the big thing for me as well. They try to make the violence as real as possible and want you to be uncomfortable or remorseful for killing people, but the game still has multitudes of systems designed to make the game enjoyable to play? You're encouraged to make Ellie commit violent acts then told to feel bad about it, that's not great narrative design. To be fair that's how the first game was as well, but this one seems to be going all-in on the idea, and the problem with that for me is that the gameplay betrays the intent of the story. By the End of Last Of US 1 I didn't care if whether any of the doctors or survivors at the medical facility were people with families and fears and wants, they were simply presented as obstacles that the player is supposed to mow down. It's a very difficult thing to tackle with a video game using the lense or realism.
Maybe make it harder to actually kill people than just sneak past them, similar to Kojima games where you're actually punished for killing people.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
It's quite the opposite. I don't know about Far Cry, but in RDR2 is impossible to finish the game without killing one animal, in the TLOU2 you absolutely have a choice and can complete the story without killing a dog. It's kind of crazy how little backlash games like those two and Assassins' Creed, Monster Hunter and many others have compared to the commotion around TLoU. Specially when you take into account how there's much more animals to kill in other games.
Dogs are different for a lot of people and this game is extremely realistic in its killing of humans and Animals.

The issue will always come down to realism. The more realistic you make something the harder the violence is for people to take. When something is a monster or mythical creature the disconnect is there, the suspension to disbelief is there. When a game intentionally tries to take away the barrier and make it as real as possible it'll effect far more people than others will.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,305
So if you kill humans or another life forms it is fine, but killing dogs is bad.

Fucking hypocrites.
The vast majority of people who have said that it made them uncomfortable have not also stated that they're ok with killing humans.
It's quite the opposite. I don't know about Far Cry, but in RDR2 is impossible to finish the game without killing one animal, in the TLOU2 you absolutely have a choice and can complete the story without killing a dog. It's kind of crazy how little backlash games like those two and Assassins' Creed, Monster Hunter and many others have compared to the commotion around TLoU. Specially when you take into account how there's much more animals to kill in other games.
Games like that typically never encourage you to kill domesticated dogs. And on top of that, they rarely have sound effects like this. The closest being RDR2 which has some really realistic wounded animal behaviors.
 

MaverickHunterAsh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,392
Los Angeles, CA.
Yeah, when I previewed The Last of Us Part II late last year my main takeaway (and I said as much at the time) was that the dogs were by far the most dangerous enemies in the parts of the game we were allowed to play and people who try to complete it without killing any are going to be in for a hell of a time. Ninety-nine percent of my deaths were due to dogs either tracking me down and alerting others or just tracking me down and killing me outright. Paradoxically, though -- and intentionally so, obviously -- the game goes so far out of its way to make the dogs' deaths so brutally realistic and visceral, as seen in this State of Play, that killing them to increase your own chances of survival hardly feels like a relief. Which is the point, of course.

...Which is all to say I'll be knocking the difficulty down to whatever level allows me to leave dogs alone as much as reasonably possible without making progression incredibly difficult and frustrating as a result (I'm terrible at stealth mechanics in games, always have been).
 

Infcabbage

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Portland, Oregon
Maybe make it harder to actually kill people than just sneak past them, similar to Kojima games where you're actually punished for killing people.
See, this is what I want. For as comic-bookish MGS games are they have a pretty good track record on player agency regarding violence. If I can complete TLOU2 without killing a single person, I'd be very happy but that also wouldn't mesh with the kind of story they seems to want to tell.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
hammer.gif
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,960
GoT seems like it'll be the perfect comfort food palette cleanser after this game tbh.
Don't know about that. While the environment and level design look more relaxing in GoT, the story is about a war and the game looks as violent with dismemberment and lots of blood splatter. While in TLoS you can kill people from far away, in GoT the whole combat revolves around you cutting people. I say the perfect palette cleanser will be Paper Mario.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,325
I understand the hype train but I have a good enough understanding of how AI is typically balanced to know that your hypothetical is flawed. You are talking about the AI and what they'd do as if it's a situation with a real dog and real people.
Not sure I agree with you, but I can agree with your perspective. That's fair, and I'll drop it.
 

Bad_Boy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
This game comes out in like 3 weeks. I'm going black.

It was the better route to take when the first one came out. I have no issues doing it with the sequel.
 

PapaJustify

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,094
Germany

From the article just before that quote:
"But in doing research for the game, Naughty Dog watched documentaries in which revenge played a role, including Paradise Lost, a 1986 film about the murders of three boys in Arkansas. The documentary focuses in part on the rage of the parents of the dead boys, who vow to hunt down and kill the accused killers if they are not convicted of the crime."

So I think it's a bit of a stretch to come to the conclusion that the animators had to watch animal killings.
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,070
Yeah, when I previewed The Last of Us Part II earlier this year my main takeaway (and I said as much at the time) was that the dogs were by far the most dangerous enemies in the parts of the game we were allowed to play and people who try to complete it without killing any are going to be in for a hell of a time. Ninety-nine percent of my deaths were due to dogs either tracking me down and alerting others or just tracking me down and killing me outright. Paradoxically, though -- and intentionally so, obviously -- the game goes so far out of its way to make the dogs' deaths so brutally realistic and visceral, as seen in this State of Play, that killing them to increase your own chances of survival hardly feels like a relief. Which is the point, of course.

...Which is all to say I'll be knocking the difficulty down to whatever level allows me to leave dogs alone as much as reasonably possible without making progression incredibly difficult and frustrating as a result (I'm terrible at stealth mechanics in games, always have been).
Yeah I'm definitely going for the easiest difficulty option the game offers. I want to make my playthrough avoid killing humans/dogs as much as possible.

I'm still worried about the difficulty comments from ND making everyone still experience the exact same thing. I'm hoping that doesn't mean avoiding killing is still hard on every level.
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
This is the big thing for me as well. They try to make the violence as real as possible and want you to be uncomfortable or remorseful for killing people, but the game still has multitudes of systems designed to make the game enjoyable to play? You're encouraged to make Ellie commit violent acts then told to feel bad about it, that's not great narrative design. To be fair that's how the first game was as well, but this one seems to be going all-in on the idea, and the problem with that for me is that the gameplay betrays the intent of the story. By the End of Last Of US 1 I didn't care if whether any of the doctors or survivors at the medical facility were people with families and fears and wants, they were simply presented as obstacles that the player is supposed to mow down. It's a very difficult thing to tackle with a video game using the lense or realism.

Well, that's on you. I tried a bit to not kill the doctor, he killed me a few times befor i killed him. The other two i ignored. i saw some let's plays where pople mowed them down without one care in the world. I didn't like that one bit. There was no need to kill them. They got out of my way.

I'm looking forward to the way the game will make me feel like crap for killing.
 

Footos22

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,771
Fuck, this looks so, so good.
They've done it again.
Glad all their hard work looks like it's paid off. Graphics are insane
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,960
The vast majority of people who have said that it made them uncomfortable have not also stated that they're ok with killing humans.

Games like that typically never encourage you to kill domesticated dogs. And on top of that, they rarely have sound effects like this. The closest being RDR2 which has some really realistic wounded animal behaviors.
I mean the dogs behave more like killing machines than domesticated in the gameplay they showed. It reminded me of RE dogs.
 

Patsy

Member
Jun 7, 2019
1,279
Germany
Hahaha, I'm so sorry. I know that feel. My pet is a bunny, though, so almost no sounds whatsoever.

He's a big boy (German Shepherd) so he only yelped & got on his back for a few seconds waiting for some pets & ran off again to play more with me right afterwards, but man, still fucking broke my heart lmao.

Yep they can get really loud .
Mom step on my dog tail by mistake and i could hear from out side the house and to rush back in to see what happen .

It's so awful!! It only really happens when we're being playful or he's walking right behind me, but it still makes me feel so bad every time. It only ever takes him a few seconds to run around like nothing happened again, but you'd think someone ripped out their hearts with how loud they cry :(
 

lost7

Member
Feb 20, 2018
2,750
Honestly, the game is clearly not for everyone. ND is clearly pushing the boundaries of how violent a game can be and I think it's fair for everyone who feels uncomfortable watching it voicing that opinion. How you go from there to implying anyone who doesn't find the violence too much as mentally unstable seems a bit overkill, though
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,297
New York
Are you talking about Death Stranding? Because I don't remember MGS V punishing me for killing people.
If I remember correctly, your rankings are impacted if you kill someone and also the warning system isnt as harsh if you tranq someone and the person is found in comparison if you flat out kill them.

Death Stranding though did take it to a whole new level.
 

fanboy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,452
Slovakia
No but the clip shown was a player choice. It was something you could easily avoid doing.

Its a game boohoo. You can do whatever the fuck you want.. people are going to kill these dogs coz it will be easier than avoiding them, especially on higher difficulties.

This game is supposed to be gritty, violent, depressing even, with sections and scenes that are disturbing... if you got a problem with that, dont play it geez.

This shit just never stops... ellie could also die in an instant and ND should just end the stream coz why not. They wanted to show as much as possible, which includes taking out the enemies.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,625
This thread is a hoot. Violence is part of the human experience and exploring it's effect on us has been a function of art throughout history. Visual arts, cinema, music, theater and other forms of expression have been exploring the uncomfortableness of violence and it's exiting to me that games are finally reaching a point where it can offer new unique perspectives instead of just glorifying it for cheap thrills. I'm 100% convinced I will not enjoy this game in the traditional sense, but I can't wait to experience it's effects on me.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,959
Jesus, that was incredible.

The animation is blowing my mind, the amount of character coming through with Ellie is just superb [and the performance itself, also superb].
 

reKon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,712
Looks great, awesome sound and animation but lacking in gameplay and design. It's got the same standard fare stuff that's in every third person game.

Are people seriously upset that the game allows you to molotov the enemy dog but totally ok that she stabbed the girl in the neck that she could've easily knocked out? Lol

I have friends that clear every area of ALL enemies bef moving ahead. Oh boy.

The standard gameplay argument comes up again.

This is a weak criticism and it doesn't even work here unless you can name me the TPS's that play very similarly to TLoU.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,136
If I remember correctly, your rankings are impacted if you kill someone and also the warning system isnt as harsh if you tranq someone and the person is found in comparison if you flat out kill them.

Death Stranding though did take it to a whole new level.
It's been a while since I played MGS so I don't remember the effect killing has on rankings but I do remember the tranqing. Thanks.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,305
Not sure I agree with you, but I can agree with your perspective. That's fair, and I'll drop it.
Like, if a dev says "you can do x but it's more difficult" the difficulty in question is often very exaggerated compared to the experience of playing through the thing.

From the article just before that quote:
"But in doing research for the game, Naughty Dog watched documentaries in which revenge played a role, including Paradise Lost, a 1986 film about the murders of three boys in Arkansas. The documentary focuses in part on the rage of the parents of the dead boys, who vow to hunt down and kill the accused killers if they are not convicted of the crime."

So I think it's a bit of a stretch to come to theconclusion that the animators had to watch animal killings.
It's not a stretch. They watched some fucked up shit while making this game.

"And our whole approach is to say, 'We want to treat this as realistically as possible.' When you stab someone—if you watch reference videos, which we have, it's gross and it's messy and it's not sanitized like you see in most movies and games.

And all things considered it really shows. Does that mean that every kill in the game was inspired by that reference and that there is no stylization going on? No ofc not. But that "reference" absolutely played a part.
 

Infcabbage

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Portland, Oregon
There'll no doubt be sections and scripted events such as the Vita moment where you/Ellie will be forced kill people, but yeah encounters are generally skipable by sneaking around the enemies.
I really hope all those sections are 100% cutscene, if I can get through this game non-lethally I'm all in on it, despite what I've said it's still a phenomenal looking game and an amazing piece of artistry.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I winced every time Ellie killed a dog or human.

If was ND goal, they sure as hell accomplished it. Killing living things should feel bad.

Can't wait to play the game.

Yea, honestly, I felt bad for or winced a few times throughout, including the death of the dog, but that means Naughty Dog succeeded in what they set out to do. It makes everything more consequential and meaningful, and also portrays Ellie to be more of a monster, better highlighting the ramifications to her lust for revenge, and the anger or hate from her enemies.

In other games I've blown off heads, bludgeoned people to death, sawed creatures in half, set people on fire, killed dozens upon dozens etc without really caring too much, on occasion even finding it amusing, and only rarely wincing (eg axing people in the head in Tomb Raider, setting someone on fire in KZ2) but here the visceral nature makes things a touch more resonant and grounded more of the time, and I think it's pretty interesting ND have achieved that given what they're going for narratively.