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TLJ Luke (depressed and cynical) vs TROS Luke (who is faithful to OT era Luke): Which did you prefer?
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
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The Jedi didn't let Order 66 happen and just because they're okay with slavery doesn't mean they'd be okay with the first actual real group of Jedi in nearly fifty years being wiped out by one of their own.
If Force Ghosts still exist there was no reasonable excuse for why they didn't get involved in anything that happened before or during the sequel trilogy.
I don't think there's any reason to believe he doesn't have all his arms and legs. He has his hair so why not his limbs?
Yeah, before it was that Leia had faith that Rey would restore the balance like Anakin had. We also lost these lines:
LUKE: Sidious will fill you with fear, with anger, and he'll use your weaknesses against you.
REY: What are his?
LUKE: Sidious looked into Vader's eyes when my father saved me, he couldn't understand my father's feelings for me. He thought love was a weakness to be used.
Anakin seems to have gotten lucky in being the one Force ghost who had his youth and limbs restored after turning good ten minutes before he died.
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In fictional media where ghosts are real, why do the ghosts never invade the world of the living?
Yoda did. Yoda let that shit go down. And he's the "perfect" jedi.
If the force wills it, yes they are.
So you're saying that the jedi religion is flawed because of the "let things happen if the force wills it" thing yes? If it was about taking away agency and always getting the outcome they wanted the force ghosts would solve literally any conflict. And that not only goes against their religion, it doesn't make for great storytelling.
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That's why I'm puzzled. In TROS, for some reason, they do their absolute damn best to hide his right arm/hand at all times, in all shots. And Luke catches the lightsaber with his left hand and lifts the X-Wing with his left hand. That's really strange.
Showing his restored right hand would have been a really nice touch.
Just one of many strange things about the film. I vaguely recall there being some questions after TLJ about "why doesn't Luke's metal hand stay behind" (who gives a shit?) when he faded away, even though his clothes faded away with him. Maybe JJ didn't want to address it, which would be strange. Why be so careful over such a small detail when you are willing to set so many more important things on fire?
"Yeah so now Palpatine's spirit flew thousands of light years into a clone body and lived for another 30 years, indirectly fathering Rey, but be careful not to show Luke's right hand. That might cause problems".
I totally get why he was depressed and cynical in the sequel trilogy but man did it suck. Luke, Leiah, and Han were so damn miserable.
I actually think there was a small missed opportunity when Luke fades away in TLJ, to have his metal arm clang to the ground.
I didn't like the last Jedi at first but came around on it, TRoS is an abomination in everyway.
This is the whole trilogy to be fair, completely weird priorities
I think they had their priorities in order until the shitstorm of TLJ nerd rage, Solo bombing and Carrie passing away.
TFA: old fashioned SW film with fresh new characters and some old faces
TLJ: move the story into new territory and focus on Kylo, Rey and Finn
DOTF (scrapped): wrap up the ST
*SHIT HAPPENS*
TROS: try and sate angry nerds by bringing back Palpatine and rehashing all the big moments from the OT, demote all ST characters except Rey to jobber status and pretend TLJ never happened
I hope they learned a lesson in planning ahead but I doubt it personally.
Both sucked. Sorry, but Disney dropped the ball horribly with the sequel trilogy. TFA was an okay start, but everything else was complete trash.
Except for Rogue One. That film was fantastic.
Except for Rogue One. That film was fantastic.
A little bit of both. I like Luke's TLJ arc and TROS Luke was entertaining in the little time he was onscreen
My best friend busted out laughing when she saw Luke grab the lightsaber though, because this fuckin' ghost came out of nowhere and is holding shit
My best friend busted out laughing when she saw Luke grab the lightsaber though, because this fuckin' ghost came out of nowhere and is holding shit
TLJ Luke is actually an interesting character and a logical step up from all of the events that occurred in-between the two trilogies.
TROS Luke is just pandering to the adolescent fantasy of the original Luke.
TROS Luke is just pandering to the adolescent fantasy of the original Luke.
TLJ propelled Luke to being one of my favorite Star Wars characters because of his arc in that film.
As for TROS Luke, I found him to be blatant fanservice to those that disliked his story in the previous episode.
As for TROS Luke, I found him to be blatant fanservice to those that disliked his story in the previous episode.
I'm not sure it even does that, he's basically just Ben Kenobi.
Considering TROS, did he spark anything ?
Lando seemed like the catalyst or hell even old Palps but not one without the other.
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Fixed it. I meant to indicate the performance that were pasted onto the film anyway, not CF's literal corpse.
I mean that his personality is more in line with what fans back then thought an older Luke would be like in their minds.
Is it?
I assume they mean the part where he pulls the x-wing out of the water.
Is it?
Uh no it's not, we got more information about the backstory of this trilogy than the OT AND PT. When it comes down to it. The historical baggage is exactly the reason we needed to see Luke as he was in TLJ. Rian understood that. You keep bringing up historical baggage as if they're obligated to write a flawless Luke Skywalker whose essentially Yoda with the body of Mark Hamill.
Luke had no idea that any of these events were happening. In his depression he cut himself off from the force. He had no idea where Ben had gone. He only had a vague idea that a conflict was happening, not the severity of the conflict. He decided the best course of action was for the jedi to not be involved at all. A rationalization, again, fueled by his own depression. He wasn't like Yoda or Obi-wan, waiting for some plucky young person to come along and solve all the things. As far as he was concerned, shit would work out.
Not in the old EU no.
You keep describing it as dark thoughts. How are these dark thoughts. This is what a force vision is like:
Why would Luke react rationally to an experience like the above?
It's almost like clinical depression causes people to make irrational decisions. 🤔 Luke didn't even know about Han leaving. He didn't know about anything happening. He was wallowing in his own misery, unable to deal with his own failure. In fact, no one even knew what had happened to Luke's temple until some time after the fact.
It absolutely is believable. Luke has reacted more negatively in the past to things way less visceral than a force vision.
What experiences. Luke outright failed in ESB. He didn't save his friends, failed to heed his master's warnings, and nearly got turned to the dark side as a result. In ROTJ, he starts out still absolutely susceptible to the dark side, and when it came down to it, despite all of his talk of not wanting to fight, he was still played into nearly killing Vader. Luke has never been presented as someone who was not vulnerable to falling or making major mistakes.
Luke cut himself off from the force. For years. Those same force ghosts wouldn't even show up when he begged them to after finding out that Ben lied.
Force ghosts have a tendency to not solve problems and it's not like they're on dial up.
Except Yoda shows up anyway in TLJ to basically do just that. Gives him a 3 minute knock on the head and then he decides to help out.
It's just not believable that he would behave that way. What is death to Luke Skywalker anyway, dude literally has seen not 1, not 2, but 3 freaking people pass away and prove to him there is life after death and even consciousness after death.
Would you have the same view/fear of death if you literally saw 3 people's ghosts alive and conversing with you after death?
To have such a literal view of the world for him and be hung up that much on life/death knowing what he knows just isn't believable. He knows Yoda/Obi-Wan also suffered far heavier losses of Jedi and they never quit or sulked, they played a long game, and he saw that long game win in the end.
For him to get to the place he's at in TLJ requires him to willfully just ignore everything he's learned.
Star Wars honestly is a trainwreck outside of the three original movies. They had no clue what they were doing with this trilogy and the prequels are just a mess. Two failed trilogies back to back.
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They're both faithful to Luke, so I choose both.
TLJ Luke was a joy to watch, and Hamill killed it. TRoS Luke was there just to pull a Yoda and get Rey out of her funk, much like Yoda and Ben did for him in Return of the Jedi.
TLJ Luke was a joy to watch, and Hamill killed it. TRoS Luke was there just to pull a Yoda and get Rey out of her funk, much like Yoda and Ben did for him in Return of the Jedi.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any hint of this grand plan in the OT, is there?
Def not t in ANH and probably not in ESB. Maybe there's some hints of it in RotJ, but even then, I don't really remember anything solid, just Yoda knowing there is another skywalker. But the thing, for all their talk of destiny and shit, Luke derails Yoda's plan because he wants to make nice with daddy dearest instead of sticking his lightsaber through his face harmonica. That it ended up working out in the end doesn't change the fact that Obiwan and Yoda were literally telling Luke that if he wasn't going to kill Vader, then they effectively might as well give up.
But more importantly, can we talk about how utter fucking shit this plan is? "Shit, we got beaten. Our only plan of action is now to hope that the children of Vader decide they want to kill him when they grow up. This will be our great plan, sit on our ass for 17 "watching over them" as they come of age and hoping they solve our problems for us".
That's supposed to be the long game? That's what I'm supposed to view as the better characterization? No. But the bigger question is why have this revision in the first place? Well, same reason as with Luke, really - Jedi are supposed to be super mega awesome superheroes, and if Yoda and Obiwan just sat around in fuckall nowheresville for 17 years before Luke decided he wanted protagonist his way through, then that paints them in a rather sad light, doesn't it? Old warriors who lost everything and gave up until the next generation just came along and did the work for them.
After he's reached his very lowest point and has connected with the force.
Luke Skywalker has never once seen death on the scale of losing everything he worked towards burning before his eyes due to his own failure. NONE of this students were trained to become one with the force. None of those bodies faded away. They were right there in front of him. Dead. They never found peace. They were violently killed without ever reaching that higher level of understanding.
Luke had no long game. All he knew was that he was suddenly the last jedi, and everything he worked towards was destroyed.
You are presenting force ghosts as an inherent thing that happens to jedi when we explicitly know that that's not how it works. You wanna talk about believability yet think Luke's first reaction to seeing the dead bodies of his students is
"Well, none of these people became one with the force but at least that's a thing that like exists so i'm like, ok with this.."
The plan was to hide Luke and Leia and then train them when the time was right to dethrone the Emperor. It's not really that complicated.
They are not that different. TROS Luke is the Luke that learned the lessons of TLJ. Luke was wrong about the Jedi needing to die. He was wrong about exile etc. That is what he learned at the end of TLJ. Luke in TROS learned those lessons and is making sure Rey does not repeat them.
And honestly Disney's examination of Luke Skywalker and how they acknowledge the expectations that we put on people thanks to their accomplishments and the toll that can take when it all comes crashing down feels so much more honest than...this perfect guy:
Also, elephant in the room. Bearded Luke > slicked back hair Luke
I agree. But some people wanted all powerful, pulling X-Wings out of the sky Luke Skywalker, instead of a 3-dimensional character 🙄
I loved the "never meet your heroes" theme that Rian Johnson utilized in TLJ. Full disclosure, I enjoyed the entire ST, even though TRoS dropped the ball in quite a few ways, but had some really good stuff in there as well. For example, the ST trio having more time spent together in TRoS than the OT trio; I think people forget that they were only a trio in ANH, and only for, like, half of that movie once they rescue Leía from the Death Star. Then it's the Death Star attack, and they're split again. They have one scene together in Empire after Luke is rescued by Han, then they split up since Luke goes to Dagobah, and Han and Leía are fleeing the Empire and end up on Cloud City.
Then in Jedi, they're not together outside of one moment before they head to Endor when Luke returns from Dagobah where they barely interact. Then they get split up on Endor. This whole, "why wasn't the gang back together like in the OT" is a bit overblown. Han and Leía spend the most time together out of the trio. Luke is almost always off doing his own thing and generally only interacts with them one on one, not as a group.
But back to Luke and TLJ. It was completely in character for him to react to failure the way he did. He's always been emotionally reactive and impulsive. His highest hero moment was destroying the Death Star (redeeming Vader was heroic for HIM, but not so much anyone else). His lowest hero moment was briefly contemplating killing his nephew when he saw the horrors Ben Solo would cause because of his corruption to the dark side. It was a foolish mistake by Luke, but a costly one. He ended up bringing about the very darkness that he considered killing Ben would avoid. Exploring that lowest moment lead to some of the most compelling content I've seen in these movies. Not to mention Hamill brought his A game to Luke in that movie acting wise. Hands down his best performance as the character.
What TLJ illustrated so well was the notion of the "perfect hero," and how unhealthy it is to place these "heroic" or celebrity figures on an infallible pedestal. Luke was a human being, not some flawless specimen who could do no wrong. In the old EU, there was this notion that both fans and the writers of EU content had that Luke was ungodly pure and always right and what he decides was law, and his mistakes were glossed over it downplayed because god forbid the great Luke Skywalker's rep gets tainted by a bad decision.
What I loved about TLJ was that it highlighted how hero worship can lead others to complacency and apathy. Why should they act against an evil regime when the mighty Luke Skywalker would no doubt step in and save the day? It's such an insane burden to place on anyone. And yet without Luke, the galaxy fell into apathy and acceptance. It was easier to kowtow to the First Order than fight against it.
The end of TLJ was kind of a have your cake and eat it too moment, but I felt it was effective and executed incredibly well. Luke's showing on Krait DID inspire the galaxy to fight. Yes, Lando and Chewie went to rally the troops, but before Luke's moment facing Ben, that spark was burnt out. If Lando and Chewie had gone to rally the troops pre-TLJ, I guarantee they would have been met with silence. After TLJ, that hope was reinvigorated, and they answered Lando's call very much so because of Luke's actions in TLJ. So when the moment came for them to ACT, and direct that fighting spirit somewhere, they came.
Luke's more nuanced and complex portrayal in TLJ is one of the high points of the entire Star Wars film saga for me. Between him and Ben Solo, they are two of the best realized characters in the series (on film, not counting TV shows or books; although there are very much excellent characters in that content as well; Clone Wars does a fantastic job with Anakin, Ahsoka, and Darth Maul, to name only 3, for example).
I love Luke Skywalker. TLJ didn't diminish his character at all. It showed me a side of Luke I never expected to see, and it was super fucking compelling. Seeing him return to his former optimistic self by the end of TLJ was incredibly triumphant. In the end, the hero clawed himself out of his lowest moment, and saved the day in a less direct way than we usually expect from heroes. Sure, he needed Yoda to smack him on the head and knock some sense into him, but when HASN'T he needed that? 😂
TRoS Luke just reinforces that change of heart from TLJ. It doesn't walk it back, and I'm amazed at how few people actually pay attention to the things these movies show you. Like, I'm still perplexed at people thinking Yoda burned the "Sacred Jedi Texts," when it was shown that Rey took them at the end of TLJ. Those same Jedi texts she's flipping through in TRoS (and it's implied she's been studying them religiously in the time between TLJ and TRoS). Tot be fair, I can kind of see how some folks might miss her having the texts in TLJ, since it's a small shot at the end, so I can only speak for myself when I say I noticed the books and laughed at Yoda's trolling of Luke and his line that Rey "already possesses that which she requires."
The entire ST has its issues, but overall, I think there's more good than meh stuff, and I find them all entertaining, and each film unique.
It blows my mind that people see these as different versions of Luke.
One is quite literally an extension and resolved version of the other.
Do people just not listen or pay attention?
These character arcs aren't that deep or hard to see.
One is quite literally an extension and resolved version of the other.
Do people just not listen or pay attention?
These character arcs aren't that deep or hard to see.
Honestly, the Sequels aren't great on the whole, so I'm not really invested in them in general. But I'll at least say that Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi is at least an interesting take on the character, even if it doesn't really square with the resolution at the end of Return of the Jedi (like virtually all of the Sequel Trilogy on the whole).
To me, even though Luke Skywalker tells the Emperor at the end of RotJ as he tosses his lightsaber aside that he "is a Jedi, like his before him"; he actually goes against what the Jedi (Obi-Wan & Yoda) wanted him to do: kill Darth Vader and the Emperor for the "good of the Galaxy".
Fundamentally, I think that one of the major themes of Star Wars is that peace is only achieved through SECULARISM. That only through tossing his lightsaber down and sparing his father, rather than giving into the theological imperative, is the Galaxy saved. The familial bond/connection of father and son and the love shared between them as people is what saves the day, not the theological implementation of the Jedi or the Sith.
This is my interpretation of the ending of RotJ/Star Wars, and is a big reason why I find the ST so insulting.
I found these films to be insulting honestly, especially Rise of Skywalker my god, but I guess I'm not terribly surprised that people love them anyway. I feel like in due time (hopefully), people will come to see these films in a more true light: that they are just pure profit driven, fan-fiction spectacle and nothing more. That they are almost ironically counter-intuitive to the whole point and legacy of Star Wars.
To me, even though Luke Skywalker tells the Emperor at the end of RotJ as he tosses his lightsaber aside that he "is a Jedi, like his before him"; he actually goes against what the Jedi (Obi-Wan & Yoda) wanted him to do: kill Darth Vader and the Emperor for the "good of the Galaxy".
Fundamentally, I think that one of the major themes of Star Wars is that peace is only achieved through SECULARISM. That only through tossing his lightsaber down and sparing his father, rather than giving into the theological imperative, is the Galaxy saved. The familial bond/connection of father and son and the love shared between them as people is what saves the day, not the theological implementation of the Jedi or the Sith.
This is my interpretation of the ending of RotJ/Star Wars, and is a big reason why I find the ST so insulting.
They really are just fan-fiction wankery for the most part, and you are exactly right about this is why things should be "retired" typically, allowing space for new interpretations of historical, collective humanist themes in artwork.
I found these films to be insulting honestly, especially Rise of Skywalker my god, but I guess I'm not terribly surprised that people love them anyway. I feel like in due time (hopefully), people will come to see these films in a more true light: that they are just pure profit driven, fan-fiction spectacle and nothing more. That they are almost ironically counter-intuitive to the whole point and legacy of Star Wars.
LOL. This is shitty reasoning. Star Wars fans expect certain character traits aka 'historical baggage' from RotJ Luke to be carried over to TLJ. This character historical baggage is a plus as it makes easy for Star Wars fans to contextualize Luke in future movies involving him. The TLJ writers and director were just terrible in incorporating that .
At the end of the OT trilogy, Luke knew the dangers of acting impulsively regarding how tricky force visions are(ESB), Dark-side temptations, how to redeem someone from the thralls of the Dark-side (RotJ) . . . . . And we get the opposite of that in TLJ. We get a scene and only one scene - there was no other build-up to Luke and Kylo's conflict - where Jedi Master Luke rashly barging in Ben Solo's bedroom and contemplating murder on his sleeping nephew due simply to terrible visions of Ben succumbing to dark-side temptations. And what's worse, the TLJ writers conveniently didnt even give Luke a chance to try and explain himself and redeem his nephew afterwards. . . . who the fuck is this Luke Skywalker?
Snyder/BvS defenders should take notes on how you guys defend Luke's shitty writing in TLJ. They could've just explain away any shitty writing of their favourite DC superhero as some grand plan of 'humanizing' so-and-so hero via 'failure' and 'depression'. No setup required. Superman is contemplating his failure and suffering from depression that's why he is a deaf-mute who couldn't even be bothered to talk and settle his difference with Batman. Gaslighting the detractors by saying its comicbook/previous movie-accurate even though its really not is optional.
Good description . . . . shows why Luke is truly out-of-character in TLJ, like what i've been saying all this time. Post-RotJ, its not like him to just sulk and wallow in depression given his calm and collected Jedi training and his close circle of friends to reach out too. Remember even Leia apparently doesn't blame him for his son turning into the Dark-side.
He is very human from the EU ones i read. He gets married. He spends family time. He reaches out to friends and family when he is feeling doubts about himself. He retains has his sense of duty to his friends and the galaxy unlike TLJ Luke who just runs and hide because of his depression and left his friends and family alone to deal with the First Order. So un-heroic.
If the TLJ writers wants to sell to a Star Wars audience that Luke Skywalker, the hero of the OT, would be reduced to a Yoda-like, depressed, hermit role they better do due diligence and show many more scenes of him aside from that 'attempting to kill my nephew' scene.
Because he already has first hand experience on how tricky and dangerous to act rashly regarding force visions (in ESB) and its consequences. He also achieve peace and balance with the Force at the end of RotJ. Without any other prior scene build-up to Luke and Ben Solo's deteriorating relationship, TLJ writer's use of a negative force vision/dark thoughts is a pretty weak reason for Luke to contemplate killing his nephew and completely breach his relationship with him.
Clinical depression is a pretty weak reason to make TLJ Luke out-of-character from his post-RotJ depiction. He is a Jedi Master who knows how to control his emotions, knows the pitfalls of Force visions, knows the temptation of dark-side users and has a good network of family and friends(dead or alive) to draw strength. Still want to use clinical depression in TLJ for Luke? Then set it up properly. Show more TLJ scenes of Luke's emotional safety net and Jedi training being eroded. Cut some Canto Bright and spaceship chase scenes if you have to.
If The Last Jedi happened between Empire Strikes Back and up to that "Im a Jedi, just like my father before me" scene in the Executor in Return of the Jedi, i couldve bought that scene of Luke acting rashly by contemplating to murder his sleeping nephew. But its not. TLJ happened post-RotJ when Luke finally found his peace and balance with the Force and reunite with his friends and family. You want him to do something inane like rashly deciding to kill his nephew, then you have set-it up properly. Something that the TLJ writers and director could not be bothered with apparently hence the criticisms.
I think it's them at their peak goodness or something or Lucas went "fuck it".
And they couldn't even do that right.
I'm honestly tired of the "remember you hero you liked? Well now you get to see him completely broken and jaded as an old man!" trope though on the flipside of that.
It's just as predictable and lame and it gets tiresome. James Bond can never have a relationship that ends well, Jean Luc Picard is always destined to be miserable as he ages (even the nephew who he grew to love as an heir is burned to death for plot reasons). Sarah Connor "succeeds" in T2 only to watch John Connor get randomly shot to death by another Terminator. Shit just gets lame after a while.
CREED is a movie that basically did this concept right ... Rocky is in a very low point in his life, but they don't turn him into a total broken husk of the character you knew. Not only does Creed not just throw away things from Rocky's past it actually even embraces them and acknowledges including the ill-fated Rocky V (lol) while embracing a new reality for the Rocky character and simultaneously building a new main pair of lead characters.
That movie does the whole "beloved franchise character handing the torch off to a new generation" thing waaaaaaaaaaaaay better than what a lot of films trying to do the similar thing end up.
