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Tim Sweeney responds to developer crunch question on twitter "Yes, we work hard and everyone here shares in Epics success."
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User warned: inflammatory generalisation of the community
Is Crunch the new EA Bad?
I swear the majority of you are probably just outraged for the sake of outrage.
edit: yes, I realize this post as originally written was in poor taste for the topic at hand.
I swear the majority of you are probably just outraged for the sake of outrage.
edit: yes, I realize this post as originally written was in poor taste for the topic at hand.
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My thinking now is that if it's really not possible to make or support a game without months of crunch then frankly that game shouldn't exist in that form. It shouldn't be legal to work employees to death like that and potentially gain an unfair advantage over companies who treat thier workers properly. If lack of crunch really is the reason Apex can't keep up with Fortnight then I see that as Epic distorting the market with inhuman work hours.
It is terrible when it happens and i hope that companies should just stop using this for the good of their workers.
This interraction on tweeter makes Sweeney as an inconsiderate a-hole but he is not the only one in gaming industry, i am afraid there are many like him.
This interraction on tweeter makes Sweeney as an inconsiderate a-hole but he is not the only one in gaming industry, i am afraid there are many like him.
have you ever worked a 100 hour week?
did you come away from it saying 'yes this is good, the quality of my work at the end of it was excellent, and the effect it had on my family life was great, we should do this often'?
Of all the things to cry "sake of outrage" over you chose super exploitative workplaces?
Sorry, I should've clarified. My post was in no way trying to downplay crunch, it was aimed at the, IMO, faux outrage that a lot of posters here seem to have around it.
Working long hours is not good for anyone's health. I've done it before, I'm sure I'll end up doing it again in the future at some point. And it sucks.
Its just ppl working themself to death lulz. Stop being outraged over every little thing era.
Just to play devil's advocate here I'm willing to bet that 1: They pay their employees well above average compared to other AAA studios 2: They will be hiring people that are qualified until they have enough on board that can lessen the workloads to a normal"ish" amount. 3: Any of their devs has a huge boon on their resume now and could probably get jobs at any dev in the world that's hiring. Being on the team that made the most successful game.in the world has to be a major plus.
Now I'm not saying I agree with crunch or what epic does or doesnt do. Just wanted to provide some counter points worth thinking about.
I definitely hope these devs can take time and manage themselves enough to stay healthy and happy and wish them the best and congratulations on the amazing success of their team.
Now I'm not saying I agree with crunch or what epic does or doesnt do. Just wanted to provide some counter points worth thinking about.
I definitely hope these devs can take time and manage themselves enough to stay healthy and happy and wish them the best and congratulations on the amazing success of their team.
It's around people crying for crunch to stop at these studios but then buying the products anyways.
Nice way to downplay the issue. Calling out a practice that damages employees health in the industry is the same as people exaggerating when criticizing EA, sure.
Epic is famous for their extremely generous employee bonus system, so theres that. You dont "accidentally" end up at Epic, they are picky, and reward people well.
boycotting a product leading to low sales doesn't result in less crunch.
Maybe there's hypocrisy in that, but it's not very productive to insist that customers shouldn't complain about how a company they purchase from conducts itself.
Even if everyone in this forum decided to boycott the games it wouldn't be enough to change anything.
The consumers shouldn't be responsible for the livelihood of the people making the games, it's the job of the CEO/managers/etc to care about this.
Where have I heard this before...?
I swear, that comic is getting a lot of use around here and rightfully so.
Have you ever worked 20 hours a days for weeks? No? Then have some shut he fuck up and grow some empathy.
Jesus Christ we're all sharing our one /life/. These people are not being allowed to /live/.
Tbh idk what great insightful response were supposed to get on Twitter about this.especially when it's in the form of a barrage of complaints a few people want him to address all at once.
I do think people are getting a little Carrie away with throwing every compalint in the world at him at once? Are they perfect, not at all, but the crunch is an industry wide problem that isn't going to be solved at epic first of all places. We really need unions in the industry to protect workers. Especially with the recent news of publishers removing credits for people who left the company regardless of how much they helped shape the product. These working conditions should be unacceptable, at epic and anywhere else.
I do think people are getting a little Carrie away with throwing every compalint in the world at him at once? Are they perfect, not at all, but the crunch is an industry wide problem that isn't going to be solved at epic first of all places. We really need unions in the industry to protect workers. Especially with the recent news of publishers removing credits for people who left the company regardless of how much they helped shape the product. These working conditions should be unacceptable, at epic and anywhere else.
I make my living as a video editor, and rarely work more than 40 hours in a week (9a-6p). Usually if I do, it's because I have to show up at a company event on a weekend or something, so it's really not the same kinda work. Meanwhile, I have a coworker who routinely comes in at 10am and works until 1am, not because our boss requires it, but because she's a perfectionist who combs through every frame of a video before rendering it out. She and I are both salaried, therefore we get no overtime or other compensation for working long hours, and ultimately, she does outstanding work, but if you put hers next to mine, you'd honestly be hard pressed to see any difference. My point is there are people who actually put themselves through this willingly for some reason, and I, personally, will never understand it. Especially when you're just burning yourself out for a company that couldn't care less about you.
Now, when it comes to being forced to work like that, there's very clearly something fundamentally wrong with how things are being run, and I think many times young people who've always wanted to work in gaming just don't realize what exactly it is they're in for. The long hours then become normal to them, and they end up thinking that's just how things are/have to be. Regardless, someone needs to crack down on these companies, because they can do (are doing?) a lot of harm to their employees' physical and mental health.
Now, when it comes to being forced to work like that, there's very clearly something fundamentally wrong with how things are being run, and I think many times young people who've always wanted to work in gaming just don't realize what exactly it is they're in for. The long hours then become normal to them, and they end up thinking that's just how things are/have to be. Regardless, someone needs to crack down on these companies, because they can do (are doing?) a lot of harm to their employees' physical and mental health.
Tim shouldn't have even bothered responding honestly, these people are clearly just looking to be upset. The first person opens by just shitting on a game's success for no reason then just pivots to calling Tim smug, plainly a troll. Then the second includes missing features AND crunch in the same criticism, which is pretty much a lose lose to engage with. Somehow I just find it very hard to believe that these people are approach from a place of good faith and empathy.
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He can continue to scoff at allegations of poor employee care all he wants but it's starting to matter more and more in gaming media so he better adjust his terrible responses to at least give the appearance that he gives a shit. EGS is almost embracing the position of heel at this point and I think they'll regret it.
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Maybe the person responding to Tim was looking for an argument, that's a subjective assesment but that doesn't mean that Tims response is justified, he handwaved a genuine point about crunch and tried to turn it into a non-issue, one that has been widely reported as being very bad at Epic.
From what I understand, Epic employees have been seeing big bonuses since Fortnite's success. That's what he's saying, that they all share in the success.
Now, in my opinion, all the money in the world can't make up for lost life hours and one's mental well-being. But maybe some of them see this as an opportunity to build a nest egg for a year and then move on to easier work?
Now, in my opinion, all the money in the world can't make up for lost life hours and one's mental well-being. But maybe some of them see this as an opportunity to build a nest egg for a year and then move on to easier work?
I think the problem is the money and overtime is so good people can't turn it down. Which can be pretty detrimental to one's health. Burnout is a real thing even with work you enjoy.
Well said. I work in software too, and any time overruns are totally on management hands.
The thing with crunch is that it completely destroys you. I had a coworker that due to stress, was one bad comment away from a divorce due to her being the main income bringer to her household. It killed her self confidence, and it took YEARS to repair that, despite being paid above average for a programmer here in my country.
And?
They may have been trying to get a rise. But they aren't the CEO of a company that is making there staff work unnecessary hours to the detriment of their health.
It's not controversial. It's the truth. No one is saying that some periods of overtime are not needed, usually for a few weeks near the end or benchmark phases. But the stories are of weeks upon weeks upon months of 70+ hour weeks that are not mandatory but totally mandatory.
Though everyone else's opinion is free to differ on this, I don't feel like getting involved in a random twitter argument using a corporate account dedicated to promoting a product is good practice, given the following attached to it and the anonymity that comes with using an account representing a product rather than a person to post things like these.
It'd be like Tim Sweeney using the EpicGames handle to reply to people rather than his personal twitter.
That said, I admit that embarrassing was the wrong word to use here.
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By and large your experience is supported by actual science on the subject, ie. it should be common-sense/facts rather than 'controversial' or 'opinion'.
Of course - we're up against decades of established work culture environments that have taught otherwise, and people are generally averse to change, even when it's for the better.
Without context 'really well' doesn't mean much. From the information I've seen, their compensation isn't bad, but they aren't exactly top in games either, and obviously not even close in tech overall. To be clear, most people defend overworking for non monetary reasons anyway - I know most of the times I've done it had nothing to do with comp (more like the opposite).
Anyway - that quote about people being afraid to take the time off (which is supposed to be 'unlimited') says everything that needs to be said about work culture really.
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Plenty of companies, especially in tech, offer RSU grants and stock options to employees that help them be rewarded when the company succeeds. Yet plenty of these companies do so without crazy work schedules and crunch. He's trying to act like bad WLB is okay as long as you give them stock options or RSU or something.