Tim Sweeney responds to developer crunch question on twitter "Yes, we work hard and everyone here shares in Epics success."

[Detail]

Just as a disclaimer before anybody reads this thread as an attack on EGS, full disclosure, I dislike what Epic are doing in the PC gaming space, I think what they are doing is anti-consumer and I am the first to admit that I take real issue with that, I am not trying to hide my dislike for EGS but this thread has not been made for that purpose.

I am not making this thread to complain about EGS or because I just want to see EGS fail, this thread isn't about the EGS, there are plenty of threads about that already so if you wish to discuss EGS outside of the context of developer treatment please use those other threads.

I am making this thread because I genuinely care about the mental wellbeing of the developers working at these huge companies! So with that being said, I will continue.

If anybody was unaware, about a month back an article came out from Polygon about developer crunch at Epic.

How Fortnite’s success led to months of intense crunch at Epic Games

Sources reveal long hours and intense pressure while working on hit game

www.polygon.com

Here is a quote from that article...

"I work an average 70 hours a week," said one employee. "There's probably at least 50 or even 100 other people at Epic working those hours. I know people who pull 100-hour weeks. The company gives us unlimited time off, but it's almost impossible to take the time. If I take time off, the workload falls on other people, and no one wants to be that guy.

"The biggest problem is that we're patching all the time. The executives are focused on keeping Fortnite popular for as long as possible, especially with all the new competition that's coming in."

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Today Tim Sweeney was responding to people on Twitter about Satisfactory and the sales numbers it is doing, for context, I will show the tweets that led up to him dismissing the crunch and playing it off like it's nothing.

So here is the link to the original thread...



And here are the responses to that...

After this exchange, a poster called Tim out on developer crunch, which led to this completely out of touch and frankly, careless response from Tim.

Here is the link for that tweet^

https://mobile.twitter.com/TimSweeneyEpic/status/1137520389171613697

Personally, I don't know how Tim can dismiss concerns and handwave the damage he is doing to his own employees because, imo, he cares more about making fortnite money than he does about their health and wellbeing.

Please, keep discussion about this respectful, I just want to see improvements at Epic for the developers working there and I think highlighting this sort of response from the CEO is an important step towards fixing the issues.

 

[spineduke]

Sounds like he's not willing to make changes for his company with regards to crunch.

Understandably so, since his Fortnite money machine stands to lose millions if they slow down with the content.

 

[Detail]

Sounds like he's not willing to make changes for his company with regards to crunch.

Understandably so, since his Fortnite money machine stands to lose millions if they slow down with the content.

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I am sincerely hoping that isn't the case, I know people like to handwave this sort of thing and defend companies when they engage is this kind of practice but I just wish people would take a step back and consider what crunch is doing to the people who create their favourite games.

 

[TheRaidenPT]

Sounds like he's not willing to make changes for his company with regards to crunch.

Understandably so, since his Fortnite money machine stands to lose millions if they slow down with the content.

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Exactly this, the moment they slow down it down it can easily be beaten by the competition.. They wanna make Fortnite $$ last as long as they can hence the crunching and the whole patch pushing.

 

[spineduke]

I am sincerely hoping that isn't the case, I know people like to handwave this sort of thing and defend companies when they engage is this kind of practice but I just wish people would take a step back and consider what crunch is doing to the people who create their favourite games.

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whats some bad momentary press against the billions they stand to earn during this honeymoon period while Fortnite is in the spotlight? I don't see him relenting

"sometimes you gotta be the bad guy" Sweeney.

 

[Joeyro]

Apex is a prime example of not succumbing to crunch but losing its massive momentum because of it. If crunch is necessary, one option is to give big bonuses and increases on overtime with generous off time after heavy crunching. Fortnite is probably the biggest success story in gaming history so instead of wasting your money on your launcher, pay your workers more Epic.

 

[Sabin]

Fuck Tim Sweeney. If someone dies from the crunch the blood will be on his hands.

 

[dex3108]

Apex is a prime example of not succumbing to crunch but losing its massive momentum because of it. If crunch is necessary, one option is to give big bonuses and increases on overtime. Fortnite is probably the biggest success story in gaming history so instead of wasting your money on your launcher, pay your workers more Epic.

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As far as we know they are paid well. But still 100h working weeks are not normal. LAst few months i worked 60h weeks (i am lucky and i can bring my work home so it helps that i am not in the office all time) and i am basically exhausted so much that no amount of money can fix that.

 

[Cirrus]

Apex is a prime example of not succumbing to crunch but losing its massive momentum because of it. If crunch is necessary, one option is to give big bonuses and increases on overtime with generous off time after heavy crunching. Fortnite is probably the biggest success story in gaming history so instead of wasting your money on your launcher, pay your workers more Epic.

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It needs multiple team's working on different content patches simultaneously, similar to how Activision had a different studio working on CoD for each year.

 

[Sal]

Fuck Tim Sweeney. If someone dies from the crunch the blood will be on his hands.

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Lol. A bit dramatic.

 

[MillionIII]

Fuck Tim Sweeney. If someone dies from the crunch the blood will be on his hands.

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You can't be serious

 

[Noodle]

Unless those employees receive royalties or stock options then they don't "share" in the company's success.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Wow, that whole twitter thread is actually really embarrassing. Not a good look Tim.

 

[Gnorman]

Fuck Tim Sweeney. If someone dies from the crunch the blood will be on his hands.

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Well that escalated quickly.

 

[Nos]

Fuck Tim Sweeney. If someone dies from the crunch the blood will be on his hands.

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The only crunch that can kill someone is

 

[Detail]

You can't be serious

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The posters wording is pretty severe in nature but this sort of crunch could lead to severe mental health issues, it's not healthy and certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility, I can't imagine the sort of depression this could cause.

I would rather lead with empathy and consider the possibility it could lead to something terrible and prevent that happening than dismiss the notion of it happening and it lead to something terrible happening and someone loses a family member because of it.

Developers are humans, not robots.

 

[Pryme]

He probably means they pay really well, and I wouldn't find that hard to believe.

Thing is, all the money in the world can't replace good mental health, work-life balance and weakened family relationships.

It's a bigger conversation than just Epic. The whole tech industry and startup scene seems to think humans can keep running at full tilt continuously. Elon Musk pretty much says the same thing. Crazy work, little personal or sleep time and money or equity is often put forward as a substitute.

Thanks OP for bringing this up. We need to always think about the people/devs behind the scene.

 

[Rodelero]

Apex is a prime example of not succumbing to crunch but losing its massive momentum because of it. If crunch is necessary, one option is to give big bonuses and increases on overtime with generous off time after heavy crunching. Fortnite is probably the biggest success story in gaming history so instead of wasting your money on your launcher, pay your workers more Epic.

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The thing is, there simply isn't that much evidence that crunch over long periods is actually efficient. Fortnite's post launch cadence is unprecendented in some respects, but is it actually out of kilter with what you'd normally expect from such a large number of people working on it? Actually break down the additions and the frequency is impressive, the sum is less so.

Apex suffered from launching into a post Fortnite world. It isn't because they aren't crunching, it's because Respawn/EA weren't confident enough to put everything into it before it proved its potential.

 

[Detail]

whats some bad momentary press against the billions they stand to earn during this honeymoon period while Fortnite is in the spotlight? I don't see him relenting

"sometimes you gotta be the bad guy" Sweeney.

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I have to agree that's probably his attitude, which is a real shame.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Hmm, I found the tweet Tim replied too but his tweet seems to be gone?

 

[Detail]

Hmm, I found the tweet Tim replied too but his tweet seems to be gone?

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[AHA-Lambda]

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Oh right thanks, I couldn't find it

 

[Doskoi Panda]

Tim Sweeney ain't gonna give up actual Fuck You Money.
So fuck you, Tim Sweeney, ya earned it.

 

[Deleted member 10551]

Epic's known to be one of the worst offenders when it comes to crunch. Also helps they're based in the most worker hostile state in the US (North Carolina)

 

[Klyka]

it makes absolute sense from a business perspective to keep going like this until the well literally runs dry.
Epic, the company, is currently making such an insane amount of money that they can set themselves up for years and years to come, even if Fortnite suddenly just drops off.
I can absolutely see them walking over "corpses" of their employees to cash in on this possibly once in a lifetime opportunity for them.
They are using all this to build a foundation to try and stand on for the future and in their thinking, employees can be easily replaced, while this current time of profit and fame can not.

 

[Xiaomi]

How exactly does everyone share in epic's success? Higher salaries? Less crunch? Collective ownership? Doesn't seem so.

 

[captainmal01]

The tweets in the OP are tiny for me, with other normal tweets in this thread, could be something up there.

And yeah I now refuse to buy games from developers who celebrate crunch or are pretty complacent in it. CD Projekt Red why :(
I might still buy used but that's just like having your cake and eating it too, so still debating that point.

 

[TitanicFall]

Asking these kinds of questions to ceos of corporations and expecting any real transparency would be naive. That's what investigative journalism is for.

 

[LuisGarcia]

I don't always lose my shit about crunch as I don't think it's always a bad thing. Getting well paid overtime can be a good thing. As long as it's clear it's a choice and paid well I don't see the issue.

With all the money Fortnite makes though you would think they could hire some more staff. Say what you want about EA but in this regard they are definitely one of the best at trying to lessen crunch. Same with Ubisoft...they make a shit load of money so they just hire a shit load of staff to deal with the workload

 

[Detail]

The tweets in the OP are tiny for me, with other normal tweets in this thread, could be something up there.

And yeah I now refuse to buy games from developers who celebrate crunch or are pretty complacent in it. CD Projekt Red why :(
I might still buy used but that's just like having your cake and eating it too, so still debating that point.

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I used pictures for the tweets rather than linking them all directly because they were just for context of the discussion, the main talking point is actually a linked tweet and I added the entire thread at the top so people can browse it themselves, just saved me time because I didn't want to have to link every single tweet individually.

 

[Arthands]

Many people gets forced to work harder than hard there

 

[Xiaomi]

I don't always lose my shit about crunch as I don't think it's always a bad thing. Getting well paid overtime can be a good thing. As long as it's clear it's a choice and paid well I don't see the issue.

With all the money Fortnite makes though you would think they could hire some more staff. Say what you want about EA but in this regard they are definitely one of the best at trying to lessen crunch. Same with Ubisoft...they make a shit load of money so they just hire a shit load of staff to deal with the workload

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I think every job has some degree of crunch towards the end of a project to make sure everything is ready. That's natural, and very temporary. It's when "crunch time" goes on for 6, 8, 12 months that it becomes less about getting a good product out the door and more about pouring people's lives down the drain to increase profits.

 

[spineduke]

I think every job has some degree of crunch towards the end of a project to make sure everything is ready. That's natural, and very temporary. It's when "crunch time" goes on for 6, 8, 12 months that it becomes less about getting a good product out the door and more about pouring people's lives down the drain to increase profits.

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And games as a service tempt companies very well into this sort of abuse. There is no "end" in sight. Would love to see some real investigative journalism into how all the big GAAS players treat their employees. Then again, expecting too much from what we currently have.

 

[dex3108]

I think every job has some degree of crunch towards the end of a project to make sure everything is ready. That's natural, and very temporary. It's when "crunch time" goes on for 6, 8, 12 months that it becomes less about getting a good product out the door and more about pouring people's lives down the drain to increase profits.

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There is no end of project for Fortnite.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Everyone shares in the success? So is everyone at Epic getting near the same pay and vacation/sick leave as those on top? Or is Epic just seeing people as fodder. I am going to guess Tim is sitting on some nice piles of cash while others are being browbeaten to work or face termination.
https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/23/18507750/fortnite-work-crunch-epic-games

Although contract staff were paid overtime, developers report a culture of fear, in which they were expected to pull long hours as part of their job. Some reported suffering health issues after working consecutive months of 70-hour weeks.

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[Ailanthium]

That's probably the worst answer to the question of crunch that I've read, and I hate that it's downplayed as 'working hard' and not 'running yourselves into the ground'. I know that he was answering multiple questions in a single tweet but the question deserves far more than one line that handwaves the issue and vaguely suggests that they all share in this success. That's simply not true and he knows it. The people benefiting most from Fortnite's continued success stand at the top, and a year-end bonus isn't going to change that. Crunch is unhealthy, unnecessary, and unreasonable.

The worst part about it is that unlike massive games that demand a few months of crunch, there's no way crunching for content patches will ever allow for a significant amount of time off to recover. It's an endless cycle.

 

[.exe]

Hmm. Unless everyone's profiting equally, the top layer of the corporate hierarchy probably gets a whole lot more shares of Epic's success on the back of its employees -- while working less intensively and having a higher quality of life to boot, in all likelihood.

 

[Mik2121]

Fuck Tim Sweeney. If someone dies from the crunch the blood will be on his hands.

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Not defending crunch at all, but... that's terribly dramatic.
Wonder how some of you would react after knowing how certain Japanese companies (fan favorites) work...

 

[spineduke]

Not defending crunch at all, but... that's terribly dramatic.
You people should read more on what many Japanese companies do. Epic is nothing compared to them.

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thats exactly the kind of thing an employer would say to someone complaining about crunch.

 

[Deleted member 10726]

The official Satisfactory twitter hopping in to defend Tim in the replies is nothing short of embarassing.

 

[Mik2121]

thats exactly the kind of thing an employer would say to someone complaining about crunch.

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What the shit, lol.
No. I'm an employee at a game dev company, we have crunch and nobody (included me) likes it. I said I'm not defending it, just that it's a bit dramatic to talk about death. The Japanese comment was related to being dramatic ONLY, but not a "what about" comment to downplay Epic's crunch situation. Jesus...

Next I'll be told I'm in favor of crunch or something stupid like that, hah.

 

[Vault]

Tim Sweeney is a wanker

 

[Chivalry]

If they don't get royalties, they share jack shit.

 

[Defect]

I would hope the employees are getting paid big time but that's probably not the case huh?

 

[Deleted member 8852]

Crunch is extremely unhealthy, and I seriously doubt the employees are actually sharing in Epic's success to that point that crunch would be worth it.

 

[slsk]

There's no doubt that these folks are being paid really well. It's essentially "blood money" for the cultural and health issues. The fact that they have worked on Fortnite would give them a lot of opportunities in the industry so retention would be a factor too.

 

[MysticGon]

So basically they are counting on moral obligation to keep people in line. Next I'll be hearing language like comrade and motherland...

 

[Nate36]

I can't know for sure obviously, but i've worked many 45-60 hour weeks and never felt abused. I feel like the majority of people complaining about crunch are just complainers, you'll find them in literally every work environment you ever work in. There are always people that feel they deserve better treatment or more compensation, and they're very rarely the most productive workers.

 

[Zok310]

The posters wording is pretty severe in nature but this sort of crunch could lead to severe mental health issues, it's not healthy and certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility, I can't imagine the sort of depression this could cause.

I would rather lead with empathy and consider the possibility it could lead to something terrible and prevent that happening than dismiss the notion of it happening and it lead to something terrible happening and someone loses a family member because of it.

Developers are humans, not robots.

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yeah, and being poor and always out of money can lead to suicide. Fuck it i will take the over time over my health any day.

 

[Detail]

What the shit, lol.
No. I'm an employee at a game dev company, we have crunch and nobody (included me) likes it. I said I'm not defending it, just that it's a bit dramatic to talk about death. The Japanese comment was related to being dramatic ONLY, but not a "what about" comment to downplay Epic's crunch situation. Jesus...

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Why is it dramatic to talk about death in regards to the stress that crunch and long working hours can bring?

It places a massive burden on family life not to mention the stress impact it has on an individuals mental wellbeing outside of that, the lack of sleep and quality downtime for example, which also impacts a person physically.

It's not far fetched to suggest that crunch could lead to death or hasn't already lead to death, I would even go as far to say that it's an inevitability if things continue as they are.