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Oct 26, 2017
3,323
What are you talking about? No one is taking away your "closed and curated App Store".
This battle between Epic and Apple is about getting more options by Apple being forced to allow installation of apps from third party sources. If you don't like it, nobody is going to force you to do that.

No, this battle is about Epic wanting to be able to put their own app store on iOS so they can be the next Steam. It's about Epic wanting to grow from "disgustingly rich" to "Apple rich." It's Epic wanting to grow fat from Apple's ecosystem, Apple's tools, Apple's APIs, Apple's customer base, Apple's hardware, and Apple's software.

You fell for Epic's "little guy" rhetoric. Which is understandable, given your own rhetoric about Apple supporters and Trump supporters being the same damn thing.

Because damn, that was dumb.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
What are you talking about? No one is taking away your "closed and curated App Store".
This battle between Epic and Apple is about getting more options by Apple being forced to allow installation of apps from third party sources. If you don't like it, nobody is going to force you to do that. Having sideloading as an option is an option, not mandatory. And having options is a good thing. It's like being able to choose a non-binary character in a game, instead of being forced to play with a pre-made one.

No, if you actually read the documents from epic, Epic wants to be able to force Apple to allow Epic have their store on the App Store while enjoying all the features and back-end support from Apple that all other App store apps enjoy while giving Apple 0% cut of sales.

This is not just about forcing Apple to allow sideloading of Epic products.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,119
Toronto
What are you talking about? No one is taking away your "closed and curated App Store".
This battle between Epic and Apple is about getting more options by Apple being forced to allow installation of apps from third party sources. If you don't like it, nobody is going to force you to do that. Having sideloading as an option is an option, not mandatory. And having options is a good thing. It's like being able to choose a non-binary character in a game, instead of being forced to play with a pre-made one.
Right. Until third party stores take on popular apps as exclusives in order to get a foothold.

I'm happy with the walled garden. If you're not, Android is right over there.
 

TLSLex

Member
Oct 26, 2017
421
Scotland
I don't understand why people are getting aggro over this. There are no sides. There are two mega-corporations (that do not care about a single one of us) spitting at each other and it's hilarious to watch. I do not like Apple, their ecosystem, or their products. I think 30% is pretty greedy. That doesn't change the fact that Apple has rules about how much money it gets from in-app purchases that developers put on the Apple app store. If you don't like it, don't put your app on the Apple app store.

Epic games chose to put their product on the Apple app store in agreement with those principles, then decided "actually nah I'd rather not have to pay this fee I've contractually agreed to pay" and circumvented it. The correct course of action would have been for them to withdraw the product as soon as they decided the model didn't work for them, but no. They broke their contract because they didn't want to pay.

The way they weaponised their players with the bizarre propaganda is disgusting - this is a multi billion corp pretending its some freedom fighting underdog. It's gross!

People can know all of this and also dislike Apple. I'm personally hoping they both implode but no matter who wins, everybody else loses.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,276
What are you talking about? No one is taking away your "closed and curated App Store".
This battle between Epic and Apple is about getting more options by Apple being forced to allow installation of apps from third party sources. If you don't like it, nobody is going to force you to do that. Having sideloading as an option is an option, not mandatory. And having options is a good thing. It's like being able to choose a non-binary character in a game, instead of being forced to play with a pre-made one.

You need to work on your analogies.
 

DyByHands

Member
Jul 16, 2018
1,130
Also people arguing that a closed system is better bEcAuSe iT iS mOrE sEcUrE obviously have no clue what they are talking about.

I dont know specifics, but has anyone ever had a bricked or jacked up iphone just from downloading an app? Cause that happens all the time with like, all, of the other phones. Iphones do seem pretty secure lol
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,910
He's right about Apple's bullshit, but nobody is buying your phony altruism here Sweeney.

You're not doing this for the CREATORS~ you're 1) trying to give Apple less money from those Vbucks you sell to children and 2) trying to get your own store on iOS so you can take the cut (albeit, a smaller cut) instead of them.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
Having sideloading as an option is an option, not mandatory. And having options is a good thing. It's like being able to choose a non-binary character in a game, instead of being forced to play with a pre-made one.

You can side load on Android.

DVeqbBe.jpg
Well shucks.
 

Kaeden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,898
US
I don't understand why people are getting aggro over this. There are no sides. There are two mega-corporations (that do not care about a single one of us) spitting at each other and it's hilarious to watch. I do not like Apple, their ecosystem, or their products. I think 30% is pretty greedy. That doesn't change the fact that Apple has rules about how much money it gets from in-app purchases that developers put on the Apple app store. If you don't like it, don't put your app on the Apple app store.

Epic games chose to put their product on the Apple app store in agreement with those principles, then decided "actually nah I'd rather not have to pay this fee I've contractually agreed to pay" and circumvented it. The correct course of action would have been for them to withdraw the product as soon as they decided the model didn't work for them, but no. They broke their contract because they didn't want to pay.

The way they weaponised their players with the bizarre propaganda is disgusting - this is a multi billion corp pretending its some freedom fighting underdog. It's gross!

People can know all of this and also dislike Apple. I'm personally hoping they both implode but no matter who wins, everybody else loses.
Tbh, the only people I see being aggro in these threads are the ones who find it perfectly acceptable to shame others for 'defending' one side or the other. They usually don't have anything substantial to say, or are completely ignorant on many aspects of this, and it seems most of the time it's simply to stir shit with a quick blast at others they don't agree with.
 
Dec 9, 2019
262
No, this battle is about Epic wanting to be able to put their own app store on iOS so they can be the next Steam. It's about Epic wanting to grow from "disgustingly rich" to "Apple rich." It's Epic wanting to grow fat from Apple's ecosystem, Apple's tools, Apple's APIs, Apple's customer base, Apple's hardware, and Apple's software.

You fell for Epic's "little guy" rhetoric. Which is understandable, given your own rhetoric about Apple supporters and Trump supporters being the same damn thing.

Because damn, that was dumb.
The reasons why Epic is doing that are irrelevant, as long as we as consumers get more options. Nobody is going to fight Apple's tyranny out of love for the consumers, it takes another greedy company to do it for their own interests. But as long as the whole thing results in a better market situation for the consumers, that's fine.
You also don't need to have a monopoly on something, or even to have over 50% of market share, to be considered anti-consumer.
 

Deleted member 279

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,270
Hes obviously a dishonest business man, but if you remove him from the words, he's not wrong.

its two evil corporations battling, can only result in good for the consumer. Better prices on the app store, etc
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
Also people arguing that a closed system is better bEcAuSe iT iS mOrE sEcUrE obviously have no clue what they are talking about.

Sure.

arstechnica.com

Google Play’s malicious app problem infects 1.7 million more devices

Apps went undetected by Google and antivirus scanners.

www.zdnet.com

Android security: Six more apps containing Joker malware removed from the Google Play Store

Researchers say the six apps had combined total of 200,000 downloads - and users who installed them should delete them.

threatpost.com

New 'Haken' Malware Found On Eight Apps In Google Play Store

Eight apps – mostly camera utilities and children's games – were discovered spreading a new malware strain that steals data and signs victims up for expensive premium services.

That's just this year.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,107
As someone who hasn't really been paying much attention to the details of this it's hilarious seeing Sweeney trying to paint the company behind fucking Fortnite as the scrappy little guy trying to get his due.

Hes obviously a dishonest business man, but if you remove him from the words, he's not wrong.

its two evil corporations battling, can only result in good for the consumer. Better prices on the app store, etc

That's true too though. It would have been cool if a collective of indie devs could have pushed for change, but if this does end up helping smaller devs in some way then awesome.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,448
No one has really been able to explain why it's bogus though?

The Hoeg Law videos on the subject are excellent at giving a basic grounding in the law; while judges are always a bit of a wildcard, he thinks that there's not much of a case on Epic's side.

I think it'd be pretty hard to prove Apple doesn't have monopoly power over software distribution on their devices.

This is one part that's brought up in those videos, and it boils down to "They do, but there's nothing inherently illegal about having a monopoly, but instead how you leverage that monopoly power".

Now wether that violates the laws Epic claims it does is a whole different discussion that is probably out of the wheelhouse of most people here, but I can't see why anyone could in good faith argue that having total control over software distribution is good for competition.

If you narrow *any* field enough it can easily be percieved as a monopoly, which is the fine line Epic's arguments are having to work around. No, there's no competition *on* the iPhone, but there is competition - ample competition - in the mobile environment in general.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
As someone who hasn't really been paying much attention to the details of this it's hilarious seeing Sweeney trying to paint the company behind fucking Fortnite as the scrappy little guy trying to get his due.
He always does this. He did the same shit on an open fucking platform, acting like paying for game exclusivity made him a revolutionary who was opening up the PC gaming market.
 
Dec 9, 2019
262
I dont know specifics, but has anyone ever had a bricked or jacked up iphone just from downloading an app? Cause that happens all the time with like, all, of the other phones. Iphones do seem pretty secure lol
And here we have evidence that people arguing in favor of iOS/closed systems have no clue what they are talking about. No, you can't brick an (for e.g.) Android device just by sideloading an app. An app would need access to systems files (root access) to do that. Rooting modern phones is a sophisticated thing. You'd need a lot of effort to brick a modern phone, no matter is its iOS or Android. That won't happen by sideloading an app.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
The reasons why Epic is doing that are irrelevant, as long as we as consumers get more options. Nobody is going to fight Apple's tyranny out of love for the consumers, it takes another greedy company to do it for their own interests. But as long as the whole thing results in a better market situation for the consumers, that's fine.
You also don't need to have a monopoly on something, or even to have over 50% of market share, to be considered anti-consumer.

But you're using your own narrow opinion of what a "better market situation" is.

The same with the term "anti-consumer." That term implies making moves that consumers aren't happy with or don't support.


Oops.

Take a moment and realize that just because you and Tim Epic believe Apple users need a savior, doesn't make it true.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,925
People siding with Apple here also support Trump's idea of building a border wall. It's as simple as that.

How can someone be against the free market and instead advocate a walled garden? It's not about Tim Sweeney or EGS and their greedy practices, it's about something far greater than that. It's the first time that Apple's tyranny and their anti-consumer practices can be brought to an end, and that is what counts.

Also people arguing that a closed system is better bEcAuSe iT iS mOrE sEcUrE obviously have no clue what they are talking about. They just seem to have swallowed Apple's BS and this thread is a great example that it works pretty well.

Amazing what 2 dollars can do to make hot takes like this.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Sure.

arstechnica.com

Google Play’s malicious app problem infects 1.7 million more devices

Apps went undetected by Google and antivirus scanners.

www.zdnet.com

Android security: Six more apps containing Joker malware removed from the Google Play Store

Researchers say the six apps had combined total of 200,000 downloads - and users who installed them should delete them.

threatpost.com

New 'Haken' Malware Found On Eight Apps In Google Play Store

Eight apps – mostly camera utilities and children's games – were discovered spreading a new malware strain that steals data and signs victims up for expensive premium services.

That's just this year.


Or something Epic related

https://thehackernews.com/2018/08/fortnite-android-app-apk.html

Oh look, a security problem that epic themselves created before.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
Sure.

arstechnica.com

Google Play’s malicious app problem infects 1.7 million more devices

Apps went undetected by Google and antivirus scanners.

www.zdnet.com

Android security: Six more apps containing Joker malware removed from the Google Play Store

Researchers say the six apps had combined total of 200,000 downloads - and users who installed them should delete them.

threatpost.com

New 'Haken' Malware Found On Eight Apps In Google Play Store

Eight apps – mostly camera utilities and children's games – were discovered spreading a new malware strain that steals data and signs victims up for expensive premium services.

That's just this year.

Yeah but at least they don't have a Trump wall, like Apple supporters want.
 

DyByHands

Member
Jul 16, 2018
1,130
And here we have evidence that people arguing in favor of iOS/closed systems have no clue what they are talking about. No, you can't brick an (for e.g.) Android device just by sideloading an app. An app would need access to systems files (root access) to do that. Rooting modern phones is a sophisticated thing. You'd need a lot of effort to brick a modern phone, no matter is its iOS or Android. That won't happen by sideloading an app.

I said I dont know specifics. And im not arguing for anything, you are lol. Just that phone stores always got a stack of bricked phones, and none are iphones.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
they've lost all sight of the tech industry's founding principles.

What does this even mean? I think him and Trump need to step away from social media, they just spread a bunch of fud all the time and fear mongering.
 
Dec 9, 2019
262
But you're using your own narrow opinion of what a "better market situation" is.

The same with the term "anti-consumer." That term implies making moves that consumers aren't happy with or don't support.



Oops.

Take a moment and realize that just because you and Tim Epic believe Apple users need a savior, doesn't make it true.
Oops what? This has nothing to do with anti-consumer behavior by companies with dominant market positions.
Consumers weren't complaining about Microsoft having Internet Explorer pre-installed on their OS, and yet MS were forced to implement an option for third party browser installation.
It doesn't matter how the overall consumer satisfaction is, it doesn't make anti-consumer behavior of a companies less anti-consumer.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Oops what? This has nothing to do with anti-consumer behavior by companies with dominant market positions.
Consumers weren't complaining about Microsoft having Internet Explorer pre-installed on their OS, and yet MS were forced to implement an option for third party browser installation.
It doesn't matter how the overall consumer satisfaction is, it doesn't make anti-consumer behavior of a companies less anti-consumer.

Why do folks keep using the MS IE comparison when it literally doesn't apply, to the point even Epic avoids that comparison because it would cause their argument to fall apart...
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,323
Oops what? This has nothing to do with anti-consumer behavior by companies with dominant market positions.
Consumers weren't complaining about Microsoft having Internet Explorer pre-installed on their OS, and yet MS were forced to implement an option for third party browser installation.
It doesn't matter how the overall consumer satisfaction is, it doesn't make anti-consumer behavior of a companies less anti-consumer.

Again, you positing that it's anti-consumer doesn't make it so.
 

MarioW

PikPok
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,155
New Zealand
Some "pro Epic" arguments are missing the main point here.

What Epic is asking for is not for the legalization of sideloading or jailbreaking. This is made clear in that they are suing Google and in the details of their lawsuit (watch the Hoeg Law videos, they are good). They are very specifically trying to get courts to compel Apple to allow Epic to put and promote an "Epic Game Store" within the App Store itself, and for all purchase revenue generated by it to not be subject to any Apple royalty or revenue share.

Which is ludicrous. Not to mention, at that point, every other app could probably just claim it is it's own "store" with a product list of 1.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,445
I don't see this being an issue about a walled garden. You can have a walled garden w.r.t. security, registered devs etc and still allow people to have their own in app stores in their games, even if it actually goes through some form of Apple vetting

In this case, it is definitely about the walled garden. Epic is seeking distribution of apps outside of the Appstore and to remove Apple as an intermediary.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Oops what? This has nothing to do with anti-consumer behavior by companies with dominant market positions.
Consumers weren't complaining about Microsoft having Internet Explorer pre-installed on their OS, and yet MS were forced to implement an option for third party browser installation.
That's not what happened tho.

Edit: it's amazing how often "90s MS anti-trust" comes up as a comparison while those 2 cases have pretty much no similarities at all.
Almost like its getting used as some kind of magic buzzword with the hope and intention that users don't know what exactly happened back then.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,448
No, if you actually read the documents from epic, Epic wants to be able to force Apple to allow Epic have their store on the App Store while enjoying all the features and back-end support from Apple that all other App store apps enjoy while giving Apple 0% cut of sales.

This is not just about forcing Apple to allow sideloading of Epic products.

In addition, it's worth bearing in mind the initial email from Epic to Apple back before they changed the payment systems suggesting that it'd be really great if they could be exempt from having to pay IAP fees.

They would have been happy with that alone.

That, for me, is what really paints Sweeney's posturing in a less-than-noble light.
 
Last edited:

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,119
Toronto
It doesn't matter how the overall consumer satisfaction is, it doesn't make anti-consumer behavior of a companies less anti-consumer.
So lowering consumer satisfaction is worthwhile in order to make Epic more money?

Tim's Sweeny's whole argument about Apple's activity isn't that it's anti-consumer, it's that it lowers his profit potential. Lowering the price of V-Bucks if they're bought directly from him isn't "pro-consumer", it's a publicity stunt. V-Bucks are virtual currency that are used to impulse buy infinitely-reproducable-at-no-cost items such as skins, which is a slimy business model as it is. (I can't believe we're here defending "horse armour".)
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,119
Toronto
That's not what happened tho.

Edit: it's amazing how often "90s MS anti-trust" comes up as a comparison while those 2 cases have pretty much no similarities at all.
Almost like its getting used as some kind of magic buzzword with the hope and intention that users don't know what exactly happened back then.
They keep bringing that up because they're hoping it goes before congress, which is a bunch of senior citizens who have no clue how any of this works and will use that as a reference point.
 

rajinus

Banned
Sep 2, 2020
138
No, this battle is about Epic wanting to be able to put their own app store on iOS so they can be the next Steam. It's about Epic wanting to grow from "disgustingly rich" to "Apple rich." It's Epic wanting to grow fat from Apple's ecosystem, Apple's tools, Apple's APIs, Apple's customer base, Apple's hardware, and Apple's software.

You fell for Epic's "little guy" rhetoric. Which is understandable, given your own rhetoric about Apple supporters and Trump supporters being the same damn thing.

Because damn, that was dumb.

Yep.

Tim Sweeney is a massively deceptive, intellectually dishonest, greedy, underhanded clown. As if he gives a fuck about the "little developer".

Funny thing is, I can't recall an ounce of resistance when Apple first introduced the Appstore and its fees (which haven't risen a single percentage since then). Developers fucking FLOCKED to it, as well as consumers. If it was that HORRIBLE of a deal, why all the enthusiasm from devs? The problem is that most people have very little historical context or knowledge. How much do people think small developers got when distributing software the old fashioned way, before the success of the appstore and other digital marketplaces? Far, FAR less than 70%. After all the publishing/distribution fees and whatnot, in many cases it was closer to 20-30%. The appstore was a paradigm shift. The appstore was and is a MASSIVE boon to devs, any way you slice it.

And WHY is the appstore so much more successful than other stores, and loved by consumers, including Google Play? It is BECAUSE of all the guidelines and restrictions Apple have instituted, like the fact that you go through Apple's payment processing, and you don't get presented with a fucking credit card form or given payment "options" like Sweeney wants, and sharing your payment info with God knows how many companies. Sweeney is claiming consumers are clamoring for choice, but I'm pretty fucking sure nobody is clamoring for an option of payment processors when getting an app, nor alternative appstores. The reason that the appstore makes so much more money for devs than the Play store, even thought the marketshare is much LESS, is because of all these decisions Apple have taken with it, their investments.

Also, I don't recall hearing a negative peep about appstore fees until the massive multi billion corporations like Epic claiming to champion them suddenly decided that they are entitled to use Apple's private platform free of charge, and entitled to monetize their lucrative userbase of $1B+ without paying anything it. iOS was NEVER advertised as an open platform, and neither was the appstore. Also, Android has a MASSIVE userbase and is "open". Can someone name me a SINGLE commercially successful app that requires sideloading? Just one is sufficient. Because apparently, developers are so oppressed and imprisoned by the appstore, if only consumers could sideload their apps, they would be doing SO much better. Except, Android DOES allow sideloading, and yet- massive shocker- 99% of consumers prefer to use the official store. So is forcing Apple to allow side-loading, and the multitude of security issues that would entail and the deterioration of trust in the platform that would result worth this hypothetical, non-existent benefit to developers?

Sweeney's revisionist history is despicable and dishonest, and his analogies are ludicrous. As is his strategy of weaponizing his 13yr base with this type of sewage level marketing. This entire manufactured campaign has been gross from the very beginning, and it's sad that some people here have so much irrational hatred towards Apple, and they're actually championing Sweeney and his dishonest tactics. All because he wants 100% of his free money shitty V-bucks on iOS, instead of 70%. At the detriment of literally every other party involved, INCLUDING the consumer. And people gladly eat up his IBM and 1984 comparisons.
 

Deleted member 10747

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
That's not what happened tho.

Edit: it's amazing how often "90s MS anti-trust" comes up as a comparison while those 2 cases have pretty much no similarities at all.
Almost like its getting used as some kind of magic buzzword with the hope and intention that users don't know what exactly happened back then.
Thank you... I have been noticing it too and also that they don't seem to know why MS got called back.
 

ika

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,154
MAD, Spain
Yep.

Tim Sweeney is a massively deceptive, intellectually dishonest, greedy, underhanded clown. As if he gives a fuck about the "little developer".

Funny thing is, I can't recall an ounce of resistance when Apple first introduced the Appstore and its fees (which haven't risen a single percentage since then). Developers fucking FLOCKED to it, as well as consumers. If it was that HORRIBLE of a deal, why all the enthusiasm from devs? The problem is that most people have very little historical context or knowledge. How much do people think small developers got when distributing software the old fashioned way, before the success of the appstore and other digital marketplaces? Far, FAR less than 70%. After all the publishing/distribution fees and whatnot, in many cases it was closer to 20-30%. The appstore was a paradigm shift. The appstore was and is a MASSIVE boon to devs, any way you slice it.

And WHY is the appstore so much more successful than other stores, and loved by consumers, including Google Play? It is BECAUSE of all the guidelines and restrictions Apple have instituted, like the fact that you go through Apple's payment processing, and you don't get presented with a fucking credit card form or given payment "options" like Sweeney wants, and sharing your payment info with God knows how many companies. Sweeney is claiming consumers are clamoring for choice, but I'm pretty fucking sure nobody is clamoring for an option of payment processors when getting an app, nor alternative appstores. The reason that the appstore makes so much more money for devs than the Play store, even thought the marketshare is much LESS, is because of all these decisions Apple have taken with it, their investments.

Also, I don't recall hearing a negative peep about appstore fees until the massive multi billion corporations like Epic claiming to champion them suddenly decided that they are entitled to use Apple's private platform free of charge, and entitled to monetize their lucrative userbase of $1B+ without paying anything it. iOS was NEVER advertised as an open platform, and neither was the appstore. Also, Android has a MASSIVE userbase and is "open". Can someone name me a SINGLE commercially successful app that requires sideloading? Just one is sufficient. Because apparently, developers are so oppressed and imprisoned by the appstore, if only consumers could sideload their apps, they would be doing SO much better. Except, Android DOES allow sideloading, and yet- massive shocker- 99% of consumers prefer to use the official store. So is forcing Apple to allow side-loading, and the multitude of security issues that would entail and the deterioration of trust in the platform that would result worth this hypothetical, non-existent benefit to developers?

Sweeney's revisionist history is despicable and dishonest, and his analogies are ludicrous. As is his strategy of weaponizing his 13yr base with this type of sewage level marketing. This entire manufactured campaign has been gross from the very beginning, and it's sad that some people here have so much irrational hatred towards Apple, and they're actually championing Sweeney and his dishonest tactics. All because he wants 100% of his free money shitty V-bucks on iOS, instead of 70%. At the detriment of literally every other party involved, INCLUDING the consumer. And people gladly eat up his IBM and 1984 comparisons.
Great post right here, thank you!
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
People siding with Apple here also support Trump's idea of building a border wall. It's as simple as that.

How can someone be against the free market and instead advocate a walled garden? It's not about Tim Sweeney or EGS and their greedy practices, it's about something far greater than that. It's the first time that Apple's tyranny and their anti-consumer practices can be brought to an end, and that is what counts.

Also people arguing that a closed system is better bEcAuSe iT iS mOrE sEcUrE obviously have no clue what they are talking about. They just seem to have swallowed Apple's BS and this thread is a great example that it works pretty well.
Thread was worth it for this post.

lmao
 

lairo

Member
May 28, 2020
463
Tim Epic can be as hypocritical as he wants, but after this crap if we get to be able to install whatever we want on iPhones that's a win for all of us.