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Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
itch.io gets by on (a variable cut that defaults to) 10%. Admittedly, they're not working with the same volume, but the possibility is there!
I think what primarily allows itch.io to get by is the relative simplicity of the provided featureset (there's some strict limitations on maximum filesize of your game if you're a first-time applicant, for instance), and the fact that it apparently only uses two payment methods, neither of which allow for any kind of regional pricing.

So, technically, you could literally run a store on as little as 1%, if all your store does is pay for hosting the store pages. You could run the distribution off a p2p network (i.e. torrents), validation and copy-protection can use simple generated keys or be entirely offloaded to the game maker, payment options are handled by external services with fees offloaded to the customer, and all your "store" would do is have an aggregate listing of available games and simple pages with descriptions, plus screenshots and videos on external hosting.

It'd be a really crappy store, but it'd be a store. You could even buy exclusives if you wanted to.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,441
I think what primarily allows itch.io to get by is the relative simplicity of the provided featureset (there's some strict limitations on maximum filesize of your game if you're a first-time applicant, for instance), and the fact that it apparently only uses two payment methods, neither of which allow for any kind of regional pricing.

So, technically, you could literally run a store on as little as 1%, if all your store does is pay for hosting the store pages. You could run the distribution off a p2p network (i.e. torrents), validation and copy-protection can use simple generated keys or be entirely offloaded to the game maker, payment options are handled by external services with fees offloaded to the customer, and all your "store" would do is have an aggregate listing of available games and simple pages with descriptions, plus screenshots and videos on external hosting.

It'd be a really crappy store, but it'd be a store. You could even buy exclusives if you wanted to.

As I indicated upthread somewhere, I made the point that it can help to think of this whole system with each store as a service and the cut being the price of using that service - contextualise it as a price rather than a cut. So you'd weigh up Epic's cheaper price with the lower-quality service they are offering against Steam's price for a higher-quality service - and it's important to note that the value of the service includes - among other things - the potential audience available, which I think is by some margin the biggest benefit of Steam and isn't trivially quantified in terms of direct services - it's one reason why the companies willing to take exclusivity deals are the ones who already have an inbuilt audience (and, of course, why those companies are the ones offered the deals in the first place); Epic's trying to build their own userbase.

Out of interest, have there been any reports of people who were offered EGS exclusivity deals and didn't accept?

As an aside, the thing that frustrates me a bit about the EGS is that I feel they're underplaying their real benefit: Being on their store gets you a different audience to Steam's via Fortnite; they've mentioned a few times that that audience has a number of members who aren't in the Steam ecosystem, so it broadens your potential audience - although there are still questions about whether those players are necessarily in the market for games that aren't Fortnite. Still, independently of the cut, that's absolutely a worthwhile and unique reason to look into releasing on EGS... but not a reason to take exclusivity!
 

RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
It certainly hasn't gone without notice how many cognitively less capable people can only talk about muh steamfanboys and stockholm syndrome in threads like these instead of engaging with actual arguments who then vanish out of existence when called out on it, as if they are silently admitting that they have no actual point to make
It's as if they were simply trolling, and actually had no idea what the fuck they were talking about. And as if those shittiest of posts happened in every PC thread and they got absolutely no moderation, or a 1 day ban at most.

So yeah, it's really as if Era was a terrible place for PC discussion, and the staff wanted to keep it that way (and at times, made it even worse themselves).
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
As an aside, the thing that frustrates me a bit about the EGS is that I feel they're underplaying their real benefit: Being on their store gets you a different audience to Steam's via Fortnite; they've mentioned a few times that that audience has a number of members who aren't in the Steam ecosystem, so it broadens your potential audience - although there are still questions about whether those players are necessarily in the market for games that aren't Fortnite. Still, independently of the cut, that's absolutely a worthwhile and unique reason to look into releasing on EGS... but not a reason to take exclusivity!

The reason it may not be touted as a selling point is because Galyonkin did some number crunching with Steam data awhile ago and determined that a good chunk of single-game players don't/won't shift into other games. A player who spends most of their gaming time in DOTA 2, CS:GO or Fortnite is very difficult to monetise, as they don't see themselves as gamers, but *insert game here* player. If it doesn't relate to their core game, it's difficult to get them interested.

Whether Galyonkin still feels this way is an unknown, but this was what he was saying backed-up by SteamSpy data.
 
Oct 25, 2017
30,028
Tampa
I have always found it to be a bit of a paradox of trying on one hand to lure developers towards the EGS via attractive revshre and on the other being a highly gated community where they can deny you if they don't like your face basically.
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,120
Steam's 30% cut is fine, considering that developers get the same level of support whether they sell 100,000, 10,000, or 100 copies.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,441
The reason it may not be touted as a selling point is because Galyonkin did some number crunching with Steam data awhile ago and determined that a good chunk of single-game players don't/won't shift into other games. A player who spends most of their gaming time in DOTA 2, CS:GO or Fortnite is very difficult to monetise, as they don't see themselves as gamers, but *insert game here* player. If it doesn't relate to their core game, it's difficult to get them interested.

Whether Galyonkin still feels this way is an unknown, but this was what he was saying backed-up by SteamSpy data.

That may generally be the case, but it's still a means by which you can broaden your potential audience, and I'm flummoxed as to why that's not one of the Official Hopes And Dreams Of The EGS that are being thrown around as potential positives; it's a damn sight more plausible than some of the others!
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
I think it should be noted again many of us aren't coming at this from the vector of support of Steam. I am a consumer of other storefronts than just Steam (GOG, Uplay, Battlenet). This isn't a defense of one storefront and platform.

I am deeply concerned and critical of Epic's anti-consumer actions and its implications on the PC industry. Steam has many problems but pale in comparison to the precedents being set by EGS.

This isn't a binary of either/or. This isn't a false dichotomy. I hope more storefronts come up that compete on price and service to the consumer which is REAL COMPETITION. That is a false framing to be dismissive of concerns of Epic by suggesting they are just fans of the competitions.
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
Now the question, what does this have to do with most of the multiple arguments posted here ? Are we supposed to think that most people are against a 10~30% price increase with a worst service, because of some kind of fanboy syndrome ?
Were people against the Xbox One DRM restrictions because they were PC/sony/nintendo fanboy, or because it was making things worst for consumer, regardless of how it could benefit devs.
Are people against lootbox just something something fanboys who just can't see that magnificent argument : "devs makes more money with it, who cares if it's predatory".
Can you explain how launching a highly publicised storefront and promising developers visibility is predatory?

Steam has been hostile for developers for a long time, especially with the community labelling games as 'abandoned' and threatening review abuse if the dev doesn't conform to any number of arbitrary demands.

As for pricing, games have been a race to the bottom with pricing and I'd love for developers to feel free and safe to release games in a slightly higher price bracket.

I'm a developer but also a consumer. I support the rights for devs to release games like Tetris Effect or even pixel platformers at $25 or 50 or 75.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,106
Australia
I think it should be noted again many of us aren't coming at this from the vector of support of Steam. I am a consumer of other storefronts than just Steam (GoG, Uplay, Battlenet). This isn't a defense of that storefront and platform.

I am deeply concerned and critical of Epic's anti-consumer actions and its implications on the PC industry. Steam has many problems but pale in comparison to the precedents being set by EGS.

This isn't a binary of either/or. This isn't a false dichotomy. I hope more storefronts come up that compete on price and service to the consumer. That is a false framing to be dismissive of concerns of Epic by suggesting they are just fans of the competitions.
Quoted for Truth. I've said it before, I appreciate Steam for what it has done for PC gaming as well as it's excellent features on both the front and back end but I have no real love for Valve in and of itself.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
Can you explain how launching a highly publicised storefront and promising developers visibility is predatory?
I think you need to reread my post, because that's not what I said.
Predatory was used in the context of lootbox, an example ( like the Xbox One DRM example ) used for the pushback ( some ) consumer do against it, regardless of how it is good for developer/publisher bank account, because of it's negative result for the consumer. And that those have mostly nothing to do with that narative that it only happen in EGS case because of people love for a millionaire/billionaire ( here Valve ) corporation, regardless of anyone seeing someone do some fanboy post somewhere on the internet.
 

Raised in a Barn

Chicken Chaser
Member
Mar 26, 2019
224
I dislike this use of "developers" as a blanket term or whatever when talking about who EGS benefit.

Does your average joe coder or graphic artist get in on these good deals? Do they get a raise, better hours, health benefits, vacation time etc etc?
I am gonna say no. It's all gonna go to the higher ups, to the seniors. Maybe there will be a small bonus to the "peons" but thats it.

If more profits meant "developers" will have it so much better then Epic themselves wouldn't have a huge crunch issue that causes people to break down.

This will always benefit the 1%. If you are not an allready established and successful company then Epic wont give a shit about you.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
Can you explain how launching a highly publicised storefront and promising developers visibility is predatory?

Steam has been hostile for developers for a long time, especially with the community labelling games as 'abandoned' and threatening review abuse if the dev doesn't conform to any number of arbitrary demands.

As for pricing, games have been a race to the bottom with pricing and I'd love for developers to feel free and safe to release games in a slightly higher price bracket.

I'm a developer but also a consumer. I support the rights for devs to release games like Tetris Effect or even pixel platformers at $25 or 50 or 75.

What does people labelling games as abandoned have to do with steam at all?
And it's not like there haven't been games that were, in fact, abandonded.
And how is that even a bad thing?
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
I think you need to reread my post, because that's not what I said.
Predatory was used in the context of lootbox, an example ( like the Xbox One DRM example ) used for the pushback ( some ) consumer do against it, regardless of how it is good for developer/publisher bank account, because of it's negative result for the consumer.

Sorry for misreading. Very interesting to see a purchase on EGS equated to a lootbox or disc based DRM, but I do feel anti consumer practices should be put in context when it's a equivalent game delivery platform on the same hardware.

I dislike this use of "developers" as a blanket term or whatever when talking about who EGS benefit.
[...] This will always benefit the 1%. If you are not an allready established and successful company then Epic wont give a shit about you.
There are indie games [clarification: from solo indie devs without millions of dollars] which are launching with timed EGS Exclusivity and the money they grants them has allowed them to hire artists and musicians to make the game better. This is very much directly effecting which games can feasibly spend what budget, even on the lower end.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
12,238
There are indie games which are launching with timed EGS Exclusivity and the money they grants them has allowed them to hire artists and musicians to make the game better. This is very much directly effecting which games can feasibly spend what budget, even on the lower end.
I'm sorry but I couldnt help laughing at the musicians part given that Dangerous Driving was released without music :p
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
Yeah Tim is confident Valve won't take that hit especially since they don't have any phenomenal money making game right now. Dota 2 and CS Go are doing great but they aren't exactly expanding, Artificat has just bomb.
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
What does people labelling games as abandoned have to do with steam at all?
And it's not like there haven't been games that were, in fact, abandonded.
And how is that even a bad thing?
image.png

Seeing this recently gave me flashbacks of games released on ios and having reviews which were complaints about not getting new free content updates, regardless of it being complete.
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
There is also the concern of Epic's "heavy curation" to ensure that no "crappy games" end up on their storefront.

What's the profit percentage for those devs who don't make the cut like Assault Android Cactus?

What's the reinvestment for them and even more smaller companies making games that don't make the cut? What's the level of visibility for them?

Or is this just the brutal reality of Epic Game Store? Screw those other developers, got mine? This is what competition looks like?

Funny how devs with a high profile Publisher or a highly popular title don't have this problem. But I guess that is just business... amirite?
 
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Sorry for misreading. Very interesting to see a purchase on EGS equated to a lootbox or disc based DRM, but I do feel anti consumer practices should be put in context when it's a equivalent game delivery platform on the same hardware.


There are indie games which are launching with timed EGS Exclusivity and the money they grants them has allowed them to hire artists and musicians to make the game better. This is very much directly effecting which games can feasibly spend what budget, even on the lower end.
It also means that far less people will be playing their product, which kinda is the point of most forms of art.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,078
image.png

Seeing this recently gave me flashbacks of games released on ios and having reviews which were complaints about not getting new free content updates, regardless of it being complete.
You chose a bad game to do that with, taking into consideration that the question was due to the game having a lot of activity until 1-2 months ago after months of heavy activity without any warning of why it stopped (the dev slowed down due to personal reasons as he commented there). He also had to delay an expansion without date, so it makes sense to ask if the DLC was coming or what was happening.

The user also owns the game (the mouse symbol) and the question is quite polite and the dev seems to have taken it well. There are far better examples of people calling games "abandoned" (like in many EAs).

Edit: that is also the only forum post that asks the question and there are no reviews that call it abandoned ware.

Like yeah, users calling some games abandoned is an issue that happens in Steam and should be better moderated, but this is not a good example.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Can you explain how launching a highly publicised storefront and promising developers visibility is predatory?

This wasn't directed at me, and the "predatory" comment has been clarified, but it's important to remember that "promising developers visibility" is specifically select developers, and that a good number of games won't be given the privilege of being allowed on EGS.

As for pricing, games have been a race to the bottom with pricing and I'd love for developers to feel free and safe to release games in a slightly higher price bracket.

I'm a developer but also a consumer. I support the rights for devs to release games like Tetris Effect or even pixel platformers at $25 or 50 or 75.

I feel for you here, as Capital G Gamers often have a snobbish attitude to indie games - they must be at or below certain price points because they're not AAA products. Sadly, I think the rush to bundle games over the past decade has devalued indie games quite substantially in the eye of a lot of people. :/

Edit: It should also be noted - though not directed at anyone in particular - that not all developers are in favour of EGS, as it's essentially just "Retreading what Steam did since 2008" including all the mistakes that Valve made with Steam (like heavy curation)..
 

Raised in a Barn

Chicken Chaser
Member
Mar 26, 2019
224
There are indie games which are launching with timed EGS Exclusivity and the money they grants them has allowed them to hire artists and musicians to make the game better. This is very much directly effecting which games can feasibly spend what budget, even on the lower end.

Indie don't mean much, The Phantom Menace is an indie film. A 100 million dollar indie film, but still an indie film.

Team Meat is indie, but I don't think they hurting for cash. Coffee Stains Studio was indie, but has been aquired by THQ?
Super Giant is also indie, but I give them the benefit of needing funding since their last game didn't do as well as their previous.

But my statement stand, these 3 are all known companies that has shipped million sellers.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,674
USA USA USA
image.png

Seeing this recently gave me flashbacks of games released on ios and having reviews which were complaints about not getting new free content updates, regardless of it being complete.
different customers have different expectations

there are games that get updates every week, those are games that contraption maker is competing against for a user's time

and the next discussion down is someone asking if dlc that was promised in feb was still coming out, it looks to me like he said he was going to deliver something and then delayed it (which can be okay, plans change! games are hard!), but it doesnt seem unreasonable to ask about the status of the game at that point
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
What are you even on about? Using one incident to paint an entire community is really poor form.

I would love to hear what game you're working on.
As usual, this kind of comments are written by people who aren't pc gamer at all.

I'm not going to defend fanboyism because it's dumb. But perhaps you should consider that pc gamers have their reasons for liking what Valve and GoG do, while strongly disliking what Epic is trying to do. Many pc gamers have bothered to explain this here on Era already.
image.png


I'm actually very fond of Steam, especially since they added the refund for games which don't work properly (I lost plenty of money on games which I couldn't get working). On one of the PC games I worked on I was instrumental in the game leaning heavily on Steam Workshop and other community features.

I'm mostly fond of competition and market disruption. I use a Kindle to read books but I wish there were a viable competitor for buying and reading ebooks.
 

Deleted member 3196

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,280
There is also the concern of Epic's "heavy curation" to ensure that no "crappy games" end up on their storefront.

What's the profit percentage for those devs who don't make the cut like Assault Android Cactus?

What's the reinvestment for them and even more smaller companies making games that don't make the cut? What's the level of visibility for them?

Or is this just the brutal reality of Epic Game Store? Screw those other developers, got mine? This is what competition looks like?

Funny how devs with a high profile Publisher or a highly popular title don't have this problem. But I guess that is just business.
This 100%. Epic's "competition" feels like they're bringing in established names (AAA publishers and bigger indies) and then pulling up the ladder so they don't have to share space with "crappy" games.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,674
USA USA USA
I'm mostly fond of competition and market disruption. I use a Kindle to read books but I wish there were a viable competitor for buying and reading ebooks.
a majority of my ebooks came from markets other than amazon (i have a lot of epubs and pdfs converted) and put through calibre even though its all on my kindle

more stores and clients are fine, great even!

but if there was a new ebook store site for instance, and they paid an author to release their new ebook exclusively on that new store site, limiting a customers choices and not having common features some people use, then i wouldnt blame people for not being happy about it!
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
Indie don't mean much, The Phantom Menace is an indie film. A 100 million dollar indie film, but still an indie film.

Team Meat is indie, but I don't think they hurting for cash. Coffee Stains Studio was indie, but has been aquired by THQ?
Super Giant is also indie, but I give them the benefit of needing funding since their last game didn't do as well as their previous.

But my statement stand, these 3 are all known companies that has shipped million sellers.
Sorry, I should have clarified 'non-millionaires'. Solo projects where the dev is spending their savings to hire a few contractors.
 

Raised in a Barn

Chicken Chaser
Member
Mar 26, 2019
224
Sorry, I should have clarified 'non-millionaires'. Solo projects where the dev is spending their savings to hire a few contractors.

I should apologize, that sounded rude of me.

I have not seen any small indies getting help so I am sorry if I am treading where I shouldn't, and if Epic is behind the scene helping people or ressurecting dying projects than I will say good on Epic for at least helping them.

I have no plans on using that store in the future, but im not gonna condemn anyway chosing to sign a deal with Epic if it means saving their project or bussiness.
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,674
USA USA USA
wait which struggling indies has epic paid for exclusivity? every one i've seen is from a dev with at least one major success under their belt
kine is the only one i can name off hand that i would say is a completely out of nowhere indie that has no previous success elsewhere

the dev also has friends at epic so

game looks fun! i hope it comes to other stores some day
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,946
image.png


I'm actually very fond of Steam, especially since they added the refund for games which don't work properly (I lost plenty of money on games which I couldn't get working). On one of the PC games I worked on I was instrumental in the game leaning heavily on Steam Workshop and other community features.

I'm mostly fond of competition and market disruption. I use a Kindle to read books but I wish there were a viable competitor for buying and reading ebooks.

What Epic are providing is not competition, it is forcibly entering the market and removing consumer choice and engaging in anti-consumer and anti-competitive practices.

It's not even good for developers because their curation policy is subjective nonsense which actively harms the indie space, you would know this if you had read through the countless amount of threads on this topic which have compiled, in detail, factual evidence outlining why EGS is bad for consumers and for developers in its current form.

This tired and repetitive arguments that defenders of Epics practices roll out about them being "good for competition" have been utterly decimated on a number of occasions with objective facts.

Here are some other facts about EGS, Game prices are higher and the supposed benefit of a higher cut trickling down to consumers in price saving has not come to fruition and their store is woefully inadequate when compared to other stores in terms of both features and customer service.

They have also entered the market buying exclusives to limit consumer choice and force them to use their store.

This is not "competition" because "competition" involves more than one party, when EGS are the only store with these games, who they competing against?

Also, I have refunded at least 20+ games on steam and never had an issue, not saying you haven't but from my own personal experience it has never been an issue.

I have seen countless devs on here parading Epic around whilst ignoring all the negatives so forgive me if I come across as short but when I had a dev tell me less than a week ago that his only concern was what benefits devs/pubs and essentially consumer concerns didn't affect him therefore it wasn't an issue it kind of rang some alarm bells.

You are free to like/dislike Epic but I think a lot of people here are getting tired of people coming in to threads, saying how great Epic are, ignoring any criticism and evidence or pretending they don't know what has happened and then the second they get questioned about the negatives of EGS they vanish or never reply until the next EGS thread pops up.

At best it seems like handwaving/fanboyism/ignorance and at worst it seems like astroturfing (not saying that's what you're doing by the way, I am simply saying that when people consistently ignore evidence based arguments about EGS they come across as disingenous.)
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
Edit: It should also be noted - though not directed at anyone in particular - that not all developers are in favour of EGS, as it's essentially just "Retreading what Steam did since 2008" including all the mistakes that Valve made with Steam (like heavy curation)..
I first-hand remember how crappy the Steam process was. I saw literal handshaking and connections opening the access door, and I agree that it sucks that Epic's process is currently similar. I feel like any store should be granted a grace period to find its legs before it opens up submissions. Valve has never handled it well, so I'm hoping Epic will grow over the next twelve months and make room for other games. That said, plenty of developers got a huge leg up by their game being the poster child for xbox live, PSN, etc.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,106
Australia
image.png

Seeing this recently gave me flashbacks of games released on ios and having reviews which were complaints about not getting new free content updates, regardless of it being complete.
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to illustrate here? It's a fair question from someone who owns the game, it wasn't written aggressively at all. Not to mention the dev responded exactly how you should to most questions you get asked about your product - straightforward, polite with a short, reasonable explanation. There is A LOT of shit in the Steam forums, like ungodly amounts, but that was a textbook example of good customer facing interaction. Yes, unfair reviews that have nothing to do with the quality of the product happens a lot of mobile storefronts but on Steam it's relatively rare in any kind of number. For all they're talked about, mass review bombing is very uncommon.

What games have you worked on?

I'm just curious. Maybe I've played one or two of them.
It's up to Dock whether they want to disclose the specifics but I can almost guarantee you've played at least one of the games they've worked on in the past.