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Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,536
www.hollywoodreporter.com

Marvel and DC’s “Shut-Up Money”: Comic Creators Go Public Over Pay

The star writers and artists behind major comic book characters are becoming increasingly outspoken about "paltry" deals that don’t account for their work being adapted into billion-dollar blockbusters.
Marvel fans were flying high with the release of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, as the Disney+ series rose to top Nielsen's closely watched streaming chart with 855 million minutes viewed during the April 12-18 frame. Yet one person fans were surprised to learn wasn't watching was Ed Brubaker.

The comic book writer, who co-created the Winter Soldier character and whose work helped inspire $1 billion grossers like 2016's Captain America: Civil War, made waves with a widely circulated interview in which he expressed dissatisfaction with his Winter Soldier pay. "I have made more on SAG residuals than I have made on creating the character," Brubaker told Kevin Smith and Marc Bernardin on the Fatman Beyond podcast, referencing his cameo in Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014). In May, Ta-Nehisi Coates, whose run on Black Panther comics helped the $1.2 billion- grossing Chadwick Boseman film get greenlit, backed Brubaker in an interview with Polygon, noting that he was fortunate not to depend on comics for a living. "I wish that Marvel found better ways to compensate the creators who helped make Black Panther Black Panther," said Coates.

Comic book history is full of stories of writers and artists who signed meager deals only to see their creations become icons, dating back to 1938, when Superman creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster signed away the character for $130. But it was unusual to hear Brubaker and Coates, creators at the height of their careers, speak openly about the issue. It reignited a conversation about creator pay, and what obligation companies have to creators who signed contracts years before movies were grossing billions and media conglomerates were building streaming services on the backs of their characters.
Multiple comic creators have publicly stated that DC's payments for adaptations, in general, is higher. Comic creator Jim Starlin turned heads in 2017 when he publicly noted that Warner Bros. paid him more for a minor character that appeared in DC's Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice than he received for Marvel's major Guardians of the Galaxy characters Thanos, Gamora and Drax combined. After Starlin's airing of grievances, Disney renegotiated his deal for Thanos, the villain of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame. Those films went on to gross $4.83 billion globally, and Starlin, while not sharing details of his deal, walked away happy. "The cliche is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease," Starlin tells The Hollywood Reporter. "The way these agreements are written up, Disney can be more generous if they want. It is written right there that they can change the terms to make it better."

There's no legal obligation to make additional payments for adaptations, with companies such as Marvel viewing these payments as thank-you gifts — and
a way to avoid the bad publicity of warring with a creator. "It's 'shut-up' money," as one Marvel creator who receives such payments, but also declined to share details of compensation, likes to call it. Even if companies have no legal obligation to compensate these writers and artists, paying more is akin to contract renegotiations with an actor. If a TV show or movie is a smash success, studios believe it makes sense to offer an actor more money for the sequel (or the next season of TV) to keep them happy. No one wants a bitter actor on set.

Since the 1970s, DC creators who added a new character to the mythos have been entitled to payments from film, TV and merchandising, an idea spearheaded by then-publisher Jenette Kahn. Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight trilogy, for example, drew upon the work of dozens of creators who received some form of compensation, sources say. Len Wein, the late Wolverine co-creator, said he received more money for creating Lucius Fox, the Batman character played by Morgan Freeman in Nolan's films, than for creating the iconic X-Men hero portrayed by Hugh Jackman in nine movies.

Conventional wisdom within the comic book industry is to go to Marvel and DC to build your personal brand, then leave, bringing that audience over to publishers that allow you to retain character rights.

"It's copyrighted by you," says comic book historian Alex Grand. "When the movie people come, they are talking to you, not Marvel."

Todd McFarlane was among the creators who popularized this notion as the co-founder of Image Comics (publisher of The Walking Dead). He launched the publisher in 1992 after becoming a star writer-artist on Marvel's Spider-Man, where he co-created Venom. McFarlane gets checks for Venom, which has a new movie due out from Sony in September.

"You are paying the original creators crumbs," says McFarlane. "The first person who says we're going to pay three times crumbs is going to look like a genius and have a flood of talent coming in your direction." McFarlane is taking that lesson to heart as he attempts to build out a shared universe based on Spawn, the popular character he owns and is developing into a movie with Blumhouse. "I'm putting together a contract that will address that in a much more significant way," McFarlane says of recruiting creators to contribute.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Work for hire for big companies is a rigged carnie game. I used to be the kind of person who'd bitch "oh stop loading the ongoings with your OCs, let me read about Wolverine" and honestly fuck that, make as many OCs as you want and take that fucking paycheck when they start showing up elsewhere.

This is the industry that let the real creator of Batman die penniless and alone while a snake who betrayed him and everyone around him got to put on his own gravestone that God inspired him to make Batman.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
Not much that's altogether surprising. Stan Lee was awesome, except when he screwed over co-creators, and it feels like Marvel can't shake that same management style.

Still side-eyeying any quotes from Todd McFarlane on the subject though, and it always makes me raise an eyebrow that Jim Lee is never mentioned in these articles. I wonder if they ask him for quotes and he doesn't respond, or if they never ask in the first place.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,488
Multiple comic creators have publicly stated that DC's payments for adaptations, in general, is higher. Comic creator Jim Starlin turned heads in 2017 when he publicly noted that Warner Bros. paid him more for a minor character that appeared in DC's Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice than he received for Marvel's major Guardians of the Galaxy characters Thanos, Gamora and Drax combined. After Starlin's airing of grievances, Disney renegotiated his deal for Thanos, the villain of Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame. Those films went on to gross $4.83 billion globally, and Starlin, while not sharing details of his deal, walked away happy. "The cliche is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease," Starlin tells The Hollywood Reporter. "The way these agreements are written up, Disney can be more generous if they want. It is written right there that they can change the terms to make it better."
Oh yeah, I remember this story. So absurd

Does someone wants to mention how much creator of the Demon Slayer made out of the Mugen Train? And that's creator owned manga, at least on paper.


fucking hell
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,844
So its Marvel intentionally leaving out royalties to these artists (who probably have little say in the matter if they want to be employed) as part of their contracts, knowing that they can use their creation to make billions of dollars in movies and merch. Real fucking slimy, Marvel.

This seems to be a common tactic for big companies to exploit artists. I recall Pete Mohrbacher's claim that Wizards of the Coast do the same thing to artists for Magic of the Gathering - yeah they pay you pretty well up front, but since you can not negotiate royalties they can make hundreds of thousands of dollars from reselling your art as cards, merch, and in video games without you seeing a cent from it after the fact, and you can't sell prints of the artwork you made for them yourself. Unless that has changed since he wrote about it.
 
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geomon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,007
Miami, FL
Comic creators have always been royally screwed whether from their own publishers or media companies after the fact. You know in the early days, the golden age of comics, where this shit could crumble at any second, I could understand the shit pay. But after a few decades and you're making millions of dollars, throw these people a bone and some credit.

The guy mentioned earlier, Bill Finger, needed a fucking documentary and pressure from his heirs just to get fucking credit for Batman. Siegel and Shuster sued DC multiple times just to get a fucking percentage and some ownership for the characters they created.

It's at the point where if you're not doing it for the love of comics then you're just not doing it. Because it can't be for the money.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,950
It's at the point where if you're not doing it for the love of comics then you're just not doing it. Because it can't be for the money.
I think these days writers and artists are decently paid upfront, iirc someone on the level of Greg Capullo makes about a 1k or 2k per page he draws (could be totally wrong tho, and I don't remember where I've read it tbh), but you are still working on someone else's property and it comes with a territory, including terrible royalties in case of an adaptation.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,735
Even just to avoid bad publicity and to curry favor, they should really increase the profits.

I do remember hearing about DC making sure (or someone in charge there) that the guy who created Robin's motorcycle got paid for its use in a movie or show somewhere. It's hard to defend them too much when you remember how they treated the Superman/Batman creators, but that's the way to go.

I don't imagine comics themselves are super profitable but the movies are and creators should get their share.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
They are reaping fundamental IP rights en masse from creators while paying actors millions and millions of dollars.

It's not right.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,750
Still side-eyeying any quotes from Todd McFarlane on the subject though, and it always makes me raise an eyebrow that Jim Lee is never mentioned in these articles.

Why do you side eye Todd? Hasn't he been really consistent about the subject since he up & left Marvel in the 90s?

And isn't Jim a devoted company man for DC? What do you expect him to say?
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
Why do you side eye Todd? Hasn't he been really consistent about the subject since he up & left Marvel in the 90s?

And isn't Jim a devoted company man for DC? What do you expect him to say?

McFarlane and Neil Gaiman had a run-in regarding some characters Gaiman created that lasted a long time. And Jim Lee is a DC company man now, but was one of the original Image founders in the 90s, so probably has some interesting thoughts about paying creators for their ideas (whether he would be at liberty to speak about them is a whole different matter).
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,750
I imagine he's giving the side eye to Todd as he pulled the same shit to Neil Gaiman over characters in Spawn.
McFarlane and Neil Gaiman had a run-in regarding some characters Gaiman created that lasted a long time. And Jim Lee is a DC company man now, but was one of the original Image founders in the 90s, so probably has some interesting thoughts about paying creators for their ideas (whether he would be at liberty to speak about them is a whole different matter).


Ah right, Angela. Thanks for reminding me.

Definitely have to side eye Todd for that.

Because Jim Lee was one of the founders of Image Comics in the 90s. Talking about switching sides when you get yourself covered.

I know. It just seems like Jim never looked back after going to DC. I think Todd is still the only Image founder who didn't go back to work for Marvel or DC after creating Image:
 

awilliams213

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,216
CT
The industry is going to make sure the George Lucas 40% net profit contract will NEVER happen again. I try to do my part and support indie books/animations.
 

Tace

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
35,731
The Rapscallion
They really need to fix this, why would aspiring writers and artists come to these companies if this is how their hard work and creativity is rewarded
 

Deleted member 20892

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,958
comicbook.com

Wolverine Creator Wein Made More Money From The Dark Knight Trilogy Than X-Men Movies

A few days ago, ComicBook.com noted that Chris Claremont and Frank Miller, who wrote the comics [...]

The late Len Wein made more money from Lucius Fox than he made from Wolverine.
In the op

Since the 1970s, DC creators who added a new character to the mythos have been entitled to payments from film, TV and merchandising, an idea spearheaded by then-publisher Jenette Kahn. Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight trilogy, for example, drew upon the work of dozens of creators who received some form of compensation, sources say. Len Wein, the late Wolverine co-creator, said he received more money for creating Lucius Fox, the Batman character played by Morgan Freeman in Nolan's films, than for creating the iconic X-Men hero portrayed by Hugh Jackman in nine movies.
 

ThatMeanScene

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,919
Miami, FL
This is terrible. These creators deserve better and everyone involved at Marvel should be ashamed for shafting them. I hope as many of these creators or families can renegotiate and/or get deals that they deserve.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
Not much that's altogether surprising. Stan Lee was awesome, except when he screwed over co-creators, and it feels like Marvel can't shake that same management style.

Still side-eyeying any quotes from Todd McFarlane on the subject though, and it always makes me raise an eyebrow that Jim Lee is never mentioned in these articles. I wonder if they ask him for quotes and he doesn't respond, or if they never ask in the first place.

When DC bought his studio they basically bought him. The guy got PAID.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,448
comicbook.com

Wolverine Creator Wein Made More Money From The Dark Knight Trilogy Than X-Men Movies

A few days ago, ComicBook.com noted that Chris Claremont and Frank Miller, who wrote the comics [...]

The late Len Wein made more money from Lucius Fox than he made from Wolverine.
I imagine both DC and Marvel vastly underpay when they turn comics into movies that make hundreds of millions of dollars or profit, but it seems like Marvel is much stingier which is something that Disney should be called out on. It shouldn't require people to go to the press before they are compensated for their ideas.
 

Wulfric

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,972
The contracts definitely need to rethought now that Marvel Studios is drawing from newer stories for their films. I understand for the 60s/70s comic books when film wasn't a consideration, but writing contracts from this point forward need to keep them in mind.

So its Marvel intentionally leaving out royalties to these artists (who probably have little say in the matter if they want to be employed) as part of their contracts, knowing that they can use their creation to make billions of dollars in movies and merch. Real fucking slimy, Marvel.

This seems to be a common tactic for big companies to exploit artists. I recall Pete Mohrbacher's claim that Wizards of the Coast do the same thing to artists for Magic of the Gathering - yeah they pay you pretty well up front, but since you can not negotiate royalties they can make hundreds of thousands of dollars from reselling your art as cards, merch, and in video games without you seeing a cent from it after the fact, and you can't sell prints of the artwork you made for them yourself. Unless that has changed since he wrote about it.

This is slightly off-topic, but yes MtG artists have always been allowed to produce prints with no kickbacks to WotC. They also keep their original paintings and can auction them off for collectors.
 

mreddie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
44,586
I imagine both DC and Marvel vastly underpay when they turn comics into movies that make hundreds of millions of dollars or profit, but it seems like Marvel is much stingier which is something that Disney should be called out on.
I know this was likely happening before he came but it's no shock a lot of these have happened as this guy watched over the company.

T7ZGOVT3RZD6LJKANYTOE5YN7Y.jpg


Notorious cheapstake. I have to wonder if the contracts got tweaked up but he's still writing checks in some ways.
 

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
They really need to fix this, why would aspiring writers and artists come to these companies if this is how their hard work and creativity is rewarded
Exposure, potentially a stable income if you get a contract, or simply wanting to write a certain character.

The real money is in creator owned books that get turned into movies and tv shows. Very few creators are going to have breakout characters that make it to movies anyways and a lot of people will save those for the stuff they actually own.

I imagine both DC and Marvel vastly underpay when they turn comics into movies that make hundreds of millions of dollars or profit, but it seems like Marvel is much stingier which is something that Disney should be called out on. It shouldn't require people to go to the press before they are compensated for their ideas.
If you want to get technical Fox was the one making the movies with Wolverine in them, so I'm not sure how the royalty payments there worked.
 

Dr.Social

Member
Oct 25, 2017
968
Garbage situation. Comic authors should be treated similarly to book authors at this point.

Don't worry Disney loves to fuck over book authors too. They had to be shamed into paying Alan Dean Foster royalties.

Star Wars Legend Alan Dean Foster Says Disney Is Withholding Book Royalties [Updated]

And there's a taskforce to make sure Disney pays other royalties.

Neil Gaiman, Chuck Wendig, and More Are Uniting to Make Disney Pay Royalties

The SFWA acknowledges in its press release announcing the task force that Foster's case may be resolved. However, the group has been approached by multiple writers across licensed novels and tie-in comics—licenses like Star Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, Indiana Jones, Spider-Man, and the Alien and Predator franchises—who all believe that royalty negotiations for work on those franchises prior to Disney's acquisition of them have been terminated. The task force says someone who previously wrote Buffy comics while the property was licensed to Dark Horse—which produced them since 1998—contacted Disney after the rights were removed from Dark Horse and given to Boom Studios post-Fox-acquisition. "When one Buffy author contacted Boom about missing royalties, they were told that 'royalties don't transfer,'" the statement added.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,448
Exposure, potentially a stable income if you get a contract, or simply wanting to write a certain character.

The real money is in creator owned books that get turned into movies and tv shows. Very few creators are going to have breakout characters that make it to movies anyways and a lot of people will save those for the stuff they actually own.


If you want to get technical Fox was the one making the movies with Wolverine in them, so I'm not sure how the royalty payments there worked.
The other example was multiple Guardians of the Galaxy yielding less than a minor background character in BvS.
 

Matrix Monkey

Member
Dec 30, 2017
571
I always find it odd when your save/earn a lot of money for a company while working for them you don't get any of that money in return. You just make your boss/CEO look good and then rich people pocket the money.