• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Digital distro market places are inherently shitty. It is the part of this industry ran entirely as businesses with any notion of artistic vision, or appreciation for the hobby removed. It is explicitly a model designed around how to build the best direct to consumer money pump. They're all shitty. They'll always be shitty.
That's a bit like saying that all major parties in the US are shitty: it's true to an extent, but the difference in the degree of shittyness is nonetheless highly relevant, and a defeatist attitude serves no one.
By reducing it to the simplistic level of "everything is shit" you are minimizing extremely important differences.

It's very simple: Steam may be "shitty", but it's currently far and away better for customers than the Epic store.

Furthermore, I'd argue that Valve, due to the way it is managed, absolutely does some work which doesn't have an immediate (or even long-term) financial reward -- such as their financing of Linux developers. It's really not justifiable from a pure capitalist perspective.
Of course they aren't my friend, but many of our interests align and they provide a large array of services to me for free which I appreciate.
The only interest I sense from Epic is monopolizing PC game distribution with large cash handouts to publishers.
 

Norwegian_Imposter

Circumventing a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
Are you entitled to a portion of Metro Exodus' sales revenues? If not why do you care?

Also, why the attempts to veer from the topic? You responded to someone's comparison to the origin of Steam by asking why it was relevant, then in your very next post proved its relevance by commenting negatively about Epic.


I don't see where that poster was trying to justify the actions of Epic, just pointing out that Valve started with equally dubious practices.

Two wrongs are two wrongs, and it doesn't matter if Valve's original transgressions were two decades ago because it isn't like they've improved since then. Most recently they've tried to take some wind out of Epic's sails via a reduced fee program - that only benefits large publishers of AAA games.

Welcome Valve having a competitor who actually has money.

This is going to turn into a Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft thing, just wait and see. Platform loyalists trying to obfuscate and white knight for corporations out of some misplaced sense of loyalty.

All I'm hoping is that Epic's bullshit pushes Valve into treating smaller publishers more equitably and maybe spurs them into a return to better seasonal sales programs, but instead of making the developer/publisher shoulder the burden of those sales financially Valve baits the hook by giving steeply discounted fees during the sale to participants.

Or maybe, you know, clean up that malignant tumor of a review and user forum they've got growing out of Steam.


I will be clear, my issue is not with Epic store. Its not with Steam, uplay, bethesda, origin etc. my issue is with the fact that they remove choice. If I want a game, I want to be the one to chose, I have origin access, I have uplay games, I have uplay games on steam and hell I even have fallout 76 on bethesda net. I can understand EA and Bethesda doing it on their launcher, their game their rules but to remove customer choice after having it originally is and always will be scummy. An example, I have bought games on uplay off gmg because of price but then I have bought other uplay games on steam because of sales. The only people who benefit from this kind of deal is money men at the publishers and company launcher. I would be this frothy if and when steam pull this bullshit.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Two wrongs make a right, the post.

Bring up transgressions two decades past to justify current wrong doings and wave away ill will.

Brilliant post.
What "wrong doings" would those be? People are talking as though Epic or Deep Silver have been dishonest. Broken trust. Stuff like that. They've made a deal to make the game exclusive to Epic's platform while still allowing people who pre-ordered on Steam to receive the game on Steam. It's not like people who have bought the game on Steam aren't getting it. They are. And everyone who wants it on Steam will be able to get it on Steam a year from now.

Valve built Steam by lying to everyone. They lied to their publisher. They secured the fragile right to release HL2 digitally THROUGH BLACKMAIL. Then they proceeded to lie to Vivendi's face by claiming that they had no plans to use Steam to replace retail. They lied to their customers repeatedly for years, and never really stopped. I'm not particularly fond of Epic, but you don't see Epic behaving the way Valve did. They're moneyhatting like crazy, but they're not behaving like demented Mark Zuckerberg-tier sociopaths. By all means, be critical of Epic using their money as a cudgel to gain market share.

But people who are fanatically loyal to Steam need to take a look in the mirror. Steam has a cultlike loyalty that may be partially earned due to some good stuff they've done with Linux gaming, for example. But go back to the dawn of Steam, and it was a group of pathological liars backstabbing everyone naive enough to trust them. Valve have a really skeevy past.

If Valve started paying developers to release their games on Steam instead of the Epic Store, how many Steam fans would object to that? Not many, I argue. While Epic's moneyhatting is a valid point of criticism, it's not really the moneyhatting most of these people object to. They're simply Valve loyalists. Many have forgotten how Half-Life 2 (which again, Valve didn't own) was made into a Steam exclusive to push a platform that has quite specifically BROKEN Half-Life 2 in alarming ways over the years. And of course Valve never fixed HL2 because they don't give a shit. But that's another discussion entirely.
 

Gavin Stevens

Team Blur Games
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
291
Telford, Shropshire
It's a dick move. It just is. I know a few people this has confused who had it preordered on steam, who were confused if they would be able to play it or not.

Look, I get it, steam are fucking miserable when it comes to that 30% cut shit. That needs to be dropped down, massively. This isn't new thinking either, as people have felt this way for years.

But that doesn't excuse dick moves like this. You don't just take your turkey out the oven because you have a big table some place else, when there are people sat down to eat. Pc gaming is solid because of CHOICE. You want it on steam? GOG? Whatever? Shoot. You should be adding another service, not removing one and restricting, and certainly not at this close to release after people have pre-ordered.

I won't even get into the utter mess of all these launchers too much... whatever... it won't change it. But if you're going to make a launcher that forces people to use it you better make damn sure it's features compete.

What a mess...
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,460
Are you entitled to a portion of Metro Exodus' sales revenues? If not why do you care?

Also, why the attempts to veer from the topic? You responded to someone's comparison to the origin of Steam by asking why it was relevant, then in your very next post proved its relevance by commenting negatively about Epic.


I don't see where that poster was trying to justify the actions of Epic, just pointing out that Valve started with equally dubious practices.

Two wrongs are two wrongs, and it doesn't matter if Valve's original transgressions were two decades ago because it isn't like they've improved since then. Most recently they've tried to take some wind out of Epic's sails via a reduced fee program - that only benefits large publishers of AAA games.

Welcome Valve having a competitor who actually has money.

This is going to turn into a Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft thing, just wait and see. Platform loyalists trying to obfuscate and white knight for corporations out of some misplaced sense of loyalty.

All I'm hoping is that Epic's bullshit pushes Valve into treating smaller publishers more equitably and maybe spurs them into a return to better seasonal sales programs, but instead of making the developer/publisher shoulder the burden of those sales financially Valve baits the hook by giving steeply discounted fees during the sale to participants.

Or maybe, you know, clean up that malignant tumor of a review and user forum they've got growing out of Steam.

Wow.

I guess you can read that posters mind. Nice.

Money-hatting a third party game right before release is competition in only the very loosest definition of the word. They don't feature compete for consumers, at all.

Honestly, at least Steam has a user review system and forum. Is it trash sometimes? Yes. Can and should it be improved? Yes. Is it useful, despite all of that, yes.


What "wrong doings" would those be? People are talking as though Epic or Deep Silver have been dishonest. Broken trust. Stuff like that. They've made a deal to make the game exclusive to Epic's platform while still allowing people who pre-ordered on Steam to receive the game on Steam. It's not like people who have bought the game on Steam aren't getting it. They are. And everyone who wants it on Steam will be able to get it on Steam a year from now.

Valve built Steam by lying to everyone. They lied to their publisher. They secured the fragile right to release HL2 digitally THROUGH BLACKMAIL. Then they proceeded to lie to Vivendi's face by claiming that they had no plans to use Steam to replace retail. They lied to their customers repeatedly for years, and never really stopped. I'm not particularly fond of Epic, but you don't see Epic behaving the way Valve did. They're moneyhatting like crazy, but they're not behaving like demented Mark Zuckerberg-tier sociopaths. By all means, be critical of Epic using their money as a cudgel to gain market share.

But people who are fanatically loyal to Steam need to take a look in the mirror. Steam has a cultlike loyalty that may be partially earned due to some good stuff they've done with Linux gaming, for example. But go back to the dawn of Steam, and it was a group of pathological liars backstabbing everyone naive enough to trust them. Valve have a really skeevy past.

If Valve started paying developers to release their games on Steam instead of the Epic Store, how many Steam fans would object to that? Not many, I argue. While Epic's moneyhatting is a valid point of criticism, it's not really the moneyhatting most of these people object to. They're simply Valve loyalists. Many have forgotten how Half-Life 2 (which again, Valve didn't own) was made into a Steam exclusive to push a platform that has quite specifically BROKEN Half-Life 2 in alarming ways over the years. And of course Valve never fixed HL2 because they don't give a shit. But that's another discussion entirely.

Jesus Christ, I'm sorry I ever engaged you on this topic. Wow.

I'm sorry you wrote so much, especially now that I see there isn't a discussion to be had on this with you.
 

Passle

Alt-account.
Member
Jan 22, 2019
50
Now even the THQ guy is trolling this forum. This thing just keeps getting weirder and weirder.
It's not trolling.

For a forum that's supposedly meant to be full of the brightest minds in gaming culture, this thread and the poor rationale behind comments like "I hope they take over management of Koch" shows that it's not.

Just a few weeks ago I read Koch executives walked into Sega's West London office and convinced them to shut down European publishing, and move it to them. Why? Just because. That type of shark behaviour is why THQ Nordic bought them in the first place, as is this new EGS deal.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,921
Even better there was also a MS Store release planned and MS has been marketing the game at shows and such, and they still pulled the game from there too. Epic is probably throwing around several millions of dollars around and telling pubs to accept it in the spot and drop everyone else without warning.

This shitty behaviour is what some call competition?

What happened to Tim Sweeney... this is such bullshit.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
It's not trolling.

For a forum that's supposedly meant to be full of the brightest minds in gaming culture, this thread and the poor rationale behind comments like "I hope they take over management of Koch" shows that it's not.

Just a few weeks ago I read Koch executives walked into Sega's West London office and convinced them to shut down European publishing, and move it to them. Why? Just because. That type of shark behaviour is why THQ Nordic bought them in the first place, as is this new EGS deal.
You don't need to be a sociopath capitalist "shark" admirer to be a bright mind.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,378
Look, I get it, steam are fucking miserable when it comes to that 30% cut shit. That needs to be dropped down, massively. This isn't new thinking either, as people have felt this way for year
But why? I'm not sure I understand. Isn't 30% the standard across the entire industry, not just on PC? Is it because the consoles and Apple and Android etc. are closed platforms and so people don't bother to complain about those?

epic or whoever else can take a smaller cut, that's fine, but let that stand by itself. There's no reason for moneyhats and exclusivity on top of that.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
I'll also be critical of their absolutely shit-tier platform while I'm at it.
I half-agree. The lack of a forum system in particular is a terribly wrong-headed idea considering how fundamental community troubleshooting and open feedback is to the PC gaming experience. So many games on Steam have critical information in the forums about fan patches and stuff that lead casual gamers down the right road.

The lack of family sharing is a disappointment. I'm wary about how Denuvo will be implemented in the Epic Launcher. Steam works really well with Family Sharing and Denuvo titles, for the most part. You can just go offline and everything is dandy.

There are many other points of complaint. I really don't relish the thought of using Epic's launcher. I will end up using it, but it has a loooong way to go. And Epic don't seem to place a high enough priority. I mean, MS are bending over backwards making promises about how they're gonna "fix" the MS Store on PC. It's talk mostly, sure, but Epic have a certain... apathy. It's like they haven't actually thought about who will be using their launcher, where, how, and why.

Speaking of Denuvo, if it does have Denuvo, will Metro Exodus be the first Epic Store game to have such DRM?
 

btkadams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
It's definitely really shitty to do this at the last minute after people have preordered on other platforms.
Edit: apparently the steam preorders are being honoured? So never mind.

But there are plenty of games on PC that are exclusive to certain stores. I guess I just see a much bigger deal with buying platform-exclusivity versus store-exclusivity. Everyone on PC can still play this game.

Is the biggest concern just the potential for the price to stay high? I'd think it would still fall alongside the PS4 and XB1 games.
 
Last edited:

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
It's not trolling.

For a forum that's supposedly meant to be full of the brightest minds in gaming culture, this thread and the poor rationale behind comments like "I hope they take over management of Koch" shows that it's not.

Just a few weeks ago I read Koch executives walked into Sega's West London office and convinced them to shut down European publishing, and move it to them. Why? Just because. That type of shark behaviour is why THQ Nordic bought them in the first place, as is this new EGS deal.

CdowKwAUUAE2OhQ.jpg
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
It's not trolling.

For a forum that's supposedly meant to be full of the brightest minds in gaming culture, this thread and the poor rationale behind comments like "I hope they take over management of Koch" shows that it's not.

Just a few weeks ago I read Koch executives walked into Sega's West London office and convinced them to shut down European publishing, and move it to them. Why? Just because. That type of shark behaviour is why THQ Nordic bought them in the first place, as is this new EGS deal.

You do understand that shareholders and consumers stand on different sides of the fence on this one I hope. Also, this now IS damage control.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
The naming and company structure makes this a bit more confusing than it should be, but this is not a case of a corporate owner not knowing what its subsidiaries are doing. This is the overall THQ Nordic company structure:

8utgTU5.png


THQ Nordic AB owns all the various companies, but the publisher we normally refer to as THQ Nordic is actually the entity referred to as THQ Nordic GmbH. Most THQ Nordic operations are handled by the Vienna office but Koch Media/Deep Silver is treated completely separately. No doubt management at THQ Nordic AB could overrule Deep Silver if deemed necessary, but unless this turns into a massive PR disaster they will likely stay hands-off. THQ Nordic GmbH (which runs the Twitter account) however cannot do anything and likely wasn't informed.

Ah, that kind of clears things up. Still, can't expect the general public to understand the nuances of their corporate structure.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
It's definitely really shitty to do this at the last minute after people have preordered on other platforms.

But there are plenty of games on PC that are exclusive to certain stores. I guess I just see a much bigger deal with buying platform-exclusivity versus store-exclusivity. Everyone on PC can still play this game.

Is the biggest concern just the potential for the price to stay high? I'd think it would still fall alongside the PS4 and XB1 games.
If you pre-ordered on Steam, you still get the game on Steam, though. Or at least that's how it appears to be.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
While Epic's moneyhatting is a valid point of criticism, it's not really the moneyhatting most of these people object to. They're simply Valve loyalists

You are embarrassing yourself with this nonsense. Countless people have written comments and even entire new topics here on Era, Twitter, Reddit and other forums about Epic's moneyhatting and why it's NOT good for PC gaming. Yet you're ignoring all that and calling them Valve loyalists. That's really sad.

Meanwhile, none of the people spamming "competition is good" and "Valve should stop doing nothing" have even bothered to explain how all this is gonna benefit us as consumers. I'm curious what you would call those people?
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
You are embarrassing yourself with this nonsense. Countless people have written comments and even entire new topics here on Era, Twitter, Reddit and other forums about Epic's moneyhatting and why it's NOT good for PC gaming. Yet you're ignoring all that and calling them Valve loyalists. That's really sad.

Meanwhile, none of the people spamming "competition is good" and "Valve should stop doing nothing" have even bothered to explain how all this is gonna benefit us as consumers. I'm curious what you would call those people?
It's not supposed to benefit you as consumers, though. Like, you think Steam exists in the first place for your benefit? Hell, no.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
That's a bit like saying that all major parties in the US are shitty: it's true to an extent, but the difference in the degree of shittyness is nonetheless highly relevant, and a defeatist attitude serves no one.
By reducing it to the simplistic level of "everything is shit" you are minimizing extremely important differences.

It's very simple: Steam may be "shitty", but it's currently far and away better for customers than the Epic store.

Furthermore, I'd argue that Valve, due to the way it is managed, absolutely does some work which doesn't have an immediate (or even long-term) financial reward -- such as their financing of Linux developers. It's really not justifiable from a pure capitalist perspective.
Of course they aren't my friend, but many of our interests align and they provide a large array of services to me for free which I appreciate.
The only interest I sense from Epic is monopolizing PC game distribution with large cash handouts to publishers.
Was Valve financing Linux developers when they first started out? No.

Has Valve attempted to profit from Linux development? Yes. Their attempts to build a contingency outside of the Windows ecosystem is pretty obvious.

That's a long term goal with financial implications for valve - a fire escape in the event that MS does actually get the courage up to force a Windows Store layer for all Windows ecosystem transactions, as Newell originally "feared" (I question the sincerity of that fear) with Windows 10.

Companies pay for risk mitigation all the time.

Also, how is Steam far and away better than Epic, other than breadth of content, for a consumer? Games sell at about the same price, download at comparable speeds, and have similar patching. I can't exactly see how an unmoderated review system largely fueled by hatemob mentality is adding consumer value.

Equating both political parties in the U.S. is false equivalence, absolutely. But I struggle to see the apparent greater good Valve offers. As someone who generally prefers indie games my interests would, in theory, be best served by Epic's distribution fee model far more than Valve's, and the developers of games I buy making more per sale does benefit me in that it makes them able to make more games I like.

The only people who benefit from this kind of deal is money men at the publishers and company launcher. I would be this frothy if and when steam pull this bullshit.
The lack of real competition created this for Valve, ipso facto. They haven't had to pull this shit because they took over the market when no major publishers were looking. But they definitely engaged in and continue to engage in shitty business practices to suit their own ends and no one makes a big deal about that. Epic's shit is a bit more public, partially intentionally on their part I'd imagine.

Durante brought up politics as an example of false equivalence here. That doesn't hold up because far right politics are aggressively against basic rights for large swaths of people and any kind of social safety net, so center right to far left gets conglomerated together but all, generally, are better for the average person than the extreme right.

The comparable analogy here I have already pointed out - it's the video game console wars. Steam users upset over Epic buying an exclusive is no different than Playstation users upset over Microsoft buying Tomb Raider exclusivity. Its shitty, but lets not act like Steam wouldn't do the exact same thing if there was clear financial gain to be had. Right now Valve is likely hoping that the whole Fortnite thing fades and Epic's groundswell of funding disappears before they get any kind of real foothold.

Vote with your wallets by all means, but the moral posturing and outrage is pretty goddamn overblown. Its video games, welcome to the realization that you have an emotionally vested interest in a fetish industry and that companies are going to try to exploit that to their corporate gain.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
But why? I'm not sure I understand. Isn't 30% the standard across the entire industry, not just on PC? Is it because the consoles and Apple and Android etc. are closed platforms and so people don't bother to complain about those?

epic or whoever else can take a smaller cut, that's fine, but let that stand by itself. There's no reason for moneyhats and exclusivity on top of that.

Oh, people complain about those all the time. And in the beginning it kind of made sense. But now that the low hanging fruit in terms of apps has been picked and the stores are overflowing, it's not really defendable anymore. Epic has to do something to bootstrap their store, can't really blame them for that. But I uunderstand the issues people have with having to go to such a barebones place, and give their payment information to another party.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Wow.

I guess you can read that posters mind. Nice.
FYI, you were the one making an inference as the poster never made the argument you stated. You were setting up a rickety strawman in an attempt to deflect from a generally valid and, given the primary source of ire in this thread, topical statement regarding your current PC digital distro overlord.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
But go back to the dawn of Steam, and it was a group of pathological liars backstabbing everyone naive enough to trust them. Valve have a really skeevy past.
wait what

did gabe newell kill your dog?

If Valve started paying developers to release their games on Steam instead of the Epic Store, how many Steam fans would object to that? Not many, I argue. While Epic's moneyhatting is a valid point of criticism, it's not really the moneyhatting most of these people object to. They're simply Valve loyalists.
you've got that completely backwards, 99% of the people annoyed at this fiasco would absolutely shit on valve if they did the same thing, and most of the people defending epic here (like you) just have some weird grudge against valve

Many have forgotten how Half-Life 2 (which again, Valve didn't own) was made into a Steam exclusive to push a platform that has quite specifically BROKEN Half-Life 2 in alarming ways over the years. And of course Valve never fixed HL2 because they don't give a shit. But that's another discussion entirely.
what the fuck are you even talking about
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
It's not supposed to benefit you as consumers, though. Like, you think Steam exists in the first place for your benefit? Hell, no.

That doesn't take away the fact that Steam offers more pro-consumer features than any other gaming storefront out there. You can't blame people for preferring Steam over any bare bones launcher. If EGS actually was better than Steam, people wouldn't mind switching. PC gamers aren't Steam loyalists.
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,460
FYI, you were the one making an inference as the poster never made the argument you stated. You were setting up a rickety strawman in an attempt to deflect from a generally valid and, given the primary source of ire in this thread, topical statement regarding your current PC digital distro overlord.

"My PC digital distro overlord"

Nice. Quality.

In what world was it honest to advertise the game for months with steam features and the steam launcher only to take it away two weeks before launch?

Topical. It was 2003.
 

Norwegian_Imposter

Circumventing a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
Was Valve financing Linux developers when they first started out? No.

Has Valve attempted to profit from Linux development? Yes. Their attempts to build a contingency outside of the Windows ecosystem is pretty obvious.

That's a long term goal with financial implications for valve - a fire escape in the event that MS does actually get the courage up to force a Windows Store layer for all Windows ecosystem transactions, as Newell originally "feared" (I question the sincerity of that fear) with Windows 10.

Companies pay for risk mitigation all the time.

Also, how is Steam far and away better than Epic, other than breadth of content, for a consumer? Games sell at about the same price, download at comparable speeds, and have similar patching. I can't exactly see how an unmoderated review system largely fueled by hatemob mentality is adding consumer value.

Equating both political parties in the U.S. is false equivalence, absolutely. But I struggle to see the apparent greater good Valve offers. As someone who generally prefers indie games my interests would, in theory, be best served by Epic's distribution fee model far more than Valve's, and the developers of games I buy making more per sale does benefit me in that it makes them able to make more games I like.


The lack of real competition created this for Valve, ipso facto. They haven't had to pull this shit because they took over the market when no major publishers were looking. But they definitely engaged in and continue to engage in shitty business practices to suit their own ends and no one makes a big deal about that. Epic's shit is a bit more public, partially intentionally on their part I'd imagine.

Durante brought up politics as an example of false equivalence here. That doesn't hold up because far right politics are aggressively against basic rights for large swaths of people and any kind of social safety net, so center right to far left gets conglomerated together but all, generally, are better for the average person than the extreme right.

The comparable analogy here I have already pointed out - it's the video game console wars. Steam users upset over Epic buying an exclusive is no different than Playstation users upset over Microsoft buying Tomb Raider exclusivity. Its shitty, but lets not act like Steam wouldn't do the exact same thing if there was clear financial gain to be had. Right now Valve is likely hoping that the whole Fortnite thing fades and Epic's groundswell of funding disappears before they get any kind of real foothold.

Vote with your wallets by all means, but the moral posturing and outrage is pretty goddamn overblown. Its video games, welcome to the realization that you have an emotionally vested interest in a fetish industry and that companies are going to try to exploit that to their corporate gain.
thats a lot of words to totally ignore what my point is. Lack of competition is a bad thing be that steam or epic. The difference is I can use the key sellers to buy from gmg etc. hell even bethesda allowed that with FO76
 

Jade1962

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,259
That's how a free market is suppose to work. You don't like something? You don't spend your money on it. Why should you not respect voting with your wallet?

Isn't the free market also at work when Epic buys exclusive games? Not that I agree with the practice but I'm not a fan of chalking up everything to "free markets".
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
Many have forgotten how Half-Life 2 (which again, Valve didn't own) was made into a Steam exclusive to push a platform that has quite specifically BROKEN Half-Life 2 in alarming ways over the years. And of course Valve never fixed HL2 because they don't give a shit. But that's another discussion entirely.

What are you referring to here....I genuinely have no idea
 

xrnzaaas

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,125
The devs were busy working on implementing steam achievements just hours before Koch pulled the rug out from under them.
The achievements have to be prepared anyway for the people who already pre-ordered the game. Besides they're always the same on the consoles so that work has to be done either way.
 

Gavin Stevens

Team Blur Games
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
291
Telford, Shropshire
User warned: inappropriate comparison
But why? I'm not sure I understand. Isn't 30% the standard across the entire industry, not just on PC? Is it because the consoles and Apple and Android etc. are closed platforms and so people don't bother to complain about those?

epic or whoever else can take a smaller cut, that's fine, but let that stand by itself. There's no reason for moneyhats and exclusivity on top of that.

Just because something is standard, it doesn't mean it's "right". Not too long ago it was "standard" to hit your wives. Its just what everybody else did. I'm not saying the two are even remotely as bad as each other mind you.
 

Toadofsky

User requested ban
Banned
Mar 8, 2018
303
Just because something is standard, it doesn't mean it's "right". Not too long ago it was "standard" to hit your wives. Its just what everybody else did. I'm not saying the two are even remotely as bad as each other mind you.

What an analogy to make to this. Good lord.
 

Asator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
905
Too much confusion in this thread.

THQ Nordic GmbH is the company in the opening post. They're a sister company to Koch, not the owners, and there is a difference.

Their parent company THQ Nordic AB owns both GmbH and Koch.

And they're not in the business of interfering with Koch.

(Sorry to break it to you all hoping for the end of Koch, over the latest in a series of smart and sound business decisions, which is how it's being discussed.)
It's not trolling.

For a forum that's supposedly meant to be full of the brightest minds in gaming culture, this thread and the poor rationale behind comments like "I hope they take over management of Koch" shows that it's not.

Just a few weeks ago I read Koch executives walked into Sega's West London office and convinced them to shut down European publishing, and move it to them. Why? Just because. That type of shark behaviour is why THQ Nordic bought them in the first place, as is this new EGS deal.

If that's how THQ AB wants to play things, then I guess they're going on my shitlist alongside koch, epic, activision and ea. I'm not going to support companies who have policies which are harmful to the customer.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,378
Just because something is standard, it doesn't mean it's "right". Not too long ago it was "standard" to hit your wives. Its just what everybody else did. I'm not saying the two are even remotely as bad as each other mind you.
No I get that, but I haven't heard people complaining about the cut on consoles or phones etc. or even on pc platforms until epic came along and started offering less. I'm sure I may have just missed it down the years so I felt I had to ask.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
The comparable analogy here I have already pointed out - it's the video game console wars. Steam users upset over Epic buying an exclusive is no different than Playstation users upset over Microsoft buying Tomb Raider exclusivity. Its shitty, but lets not act like Steam wouldn't do the exact same thing if there was clear financial gain to be had.
Tomb Raider is a very good example of market psychology. Sony paid for exclusivity twice. Most of the people upset about MS paying for timed exclusivity for Rise of the Tomb Raider didn't care about the multiple times Sony paid for long-term exclusivity of the games. It's okay when people I like do it, etc.
what the fuck are you even talking about
A lot of people talk about Epic using other people's games as store exclusives (in fairly open and honest business deals, mind you) as some kind of line being crossed. What they tend to forget is that Half-Life belonged to Vivendi. Not Valve. Valve engaged in some extremely skeevy behavior behind the scenes to blackmail Vivendi into allowing them to digitally distribute the game. But this was quickly twisted into the game requiring Steam, even in retail copies, because this was Valve's underhanded plan all along. They wanted to force gamers to use Steam. Which at that time offered basically zero benefits for singleplayer games. They were lying to their publisher, lying to their partner developers and in fact they directly harmed Gearbox as a company during this period.
you've got that completely backwards, 99% of the people annoyed at this fiasco would absolutely shit on valve if they did the same thing
I don't buy that. For example, if Valve paid Bethesda to put Doom Eternal on Steam instead of that kinda crappy Bethesda Launcher, you really think people on here would be UPSET by that? Angry that they were forced to use Steam instead of the Bethesda Launcher?
 

Passle

Alt-account.
Member
Jan 22, 2019
50
If that's how THQ AB wants to play things, then I guess they're going on my shitlist alongside koch, epic, activision and ea. I'm not going to support companies that behave like this.
To be frank, seizing every market opportunity has been the mantra since Day One.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Tomb Raider is a very good example of market psychology. Sony paid for exclusivity twice. Most of the people upset about MS paying for timed exclusivity for Rise of the Tomb Raider didn't care about the multiple times Sony paid for long-term exclusivity of the games. It's okay when people I like do it, etc.

A lot of people talk about Epic using other people's games as store exclusives (in fairly open and honest business deals, mind you) as some kind of line being crossed. What they tend to forget is that Half-Life belonged to Vivendi. Not Valve. Valve engaged in some extremely skeevy behavior behind the scenes to blackmail Vivendi into allowing them to digitally distribute the game. But this was quickly twisted into the game requiring Steam, even in retail copies, because this was Valve's underhanded plan all along. They wanted to force gamers to use Steam. Which at that time offered basically zero benefits for singleplayer games. They were lying to their publisher, lying to their partner developers and in fact they directly harmed Gearbox as a company during this period.

I don't buy that. For example, if Valve paid Bethesda to put Doom Eternal on Steam instead of that kinda crappy Bethesda Launcher, you really think people on here would be UPSET by that? Angry that they were forced to use Steam instead of the Bethesda Launcher?

If Valve forced Bethesda (ha, the idea is ludicrous by itself) to put Doom Eternal only on Steam people would be pissed. I don't think is that hard to understand that is this strategy what people have problems with...
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
"My PC digital distro overlord"

Nice. Quality.

In what world was it honest to advertise the game for months with steam features and the steam launcher only to take it away two weeks before launch?

Topical. It was 2003.
Are you saying Valve isn't the current digital distro overlord for the entire PC market? Up until quite recently releasing a PC game that wasn't on Steam was basically an absurd fantasy on how to guarantee your product would fail, with Minecraft as basically the only exception in recent history.

And again, I'm not saying Epic isn't shitty. They absolutely are. But this is analogous to console wars moved to PC so the argument that Valve are the pro-consumer group is pretty laughable.

thats a lot of words to totally ignore what my point is. Lack of competition is a bad thing be that steam or epic. The difference is I can use the key sellers to buy from gmg etc. hell even bethesda allowed that with FO76
And key sellers have been directly linked to fraud (buying titles out of region, fake key reproduction, etc.) that steals money from developers. That's a dubious "positive" trait for Steam.

Meanwhile developers who want the ability to flip Steam keys to GMG or similar can - they simply just don't need to take Epic's money. Thats it. I'm pretty sure Epic will still let them on their launcher too. Epic isn't forcing a walled garden of 'exclusive or nothing'. They're actively incentivising exclusives behind the scenes. Its shitty, not not exploitative.
 

Deleted member 10737

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
49,774
they don't sound happy or supportive about the decision one of their [rather independent] subsidiaries has made
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
If Valve forced Bethesda (ha, the idea is ludicrous by itself) to put Doom Eternal only on Steam people would be pissed. I don't think is that hard to understand that is this strategy what people have problems with...
Of course. And until recently Valve would never imagine that because why would they when they effectively had exclusivity on the PC platform handed to them?

People should feel free to vote with their wallets, but don't act surprised that this is how Epic is going about things, or that they're finding publishers willing to play along. And don't be surprised when, if Epic takes meaningful marketshare from Steam, we see Valve do the exact same thing.

This industry has had people paying for exclusivity as long as people have had a product that needed content to push it. It used to be restricted to consoles specifically. Then peripherals (VR), now its moving into digital distro platforms as well. A bunch of MBAs sit around talk about how they can "achieve product differentiation" and this is the easy solution.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Are you saying Valve isn't the current digital distro overlord for the entire PC market? Up until quite recently releasing a PC game that wasn't on Steam was basically an absurd fantasy on how to guarantee your product would fail, with Minecraft as basically the only exception in recent history.

And again, I'm not saying Epic isn't shitty. They absolutely are. But this is analogous to console wars moved to PC so the argument that Valve are the pro-consumer group is pretty laughable.


And key sellers have been directly linked to fraud (buying titles out of region, fake key reproduction, etc.) that steals money from developers. That's a dubious "positive" trait for Steam.

Meanwhile developers who want the ability to flip Steam keys to GMG or similar can - they simply just don't need to take Epic's money. Thats it. I'm pretty sure Epic will still let them on their launcher too. Epic isn't forcing a walled garden of 'exclusive or nothing'. They're actively incentivising exclusives behind the scenes. Its shitty, not not exploitative.

Key sellers are bad, steam reviews are bad, communities are bad. We should thank Epic for giving us this tightly curated store they can control what games we might want to play, instead of letting us to explore an actual store.

It downloads games just fine as Steam and every other "advantage" steam has is actually a negative.

Thanks Epic.

Of course. And until recently Valve would never imagine that because why would they when they effectively had exclusivity on the PC platform handed to them?

They had exclusivity just because publishers ands devs, decided so. It wasn't enforced. That's the problem.

Not sure how it matters into the question in hand. Is bad when Epic buys exclusivities, and that's the problem we have with the store.
 
Last edited:

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
not
What "wrong doings" would those be? People are talking as though Epic or Deep Silver have been dishonest. Broken trust. Stuff like that. They've made a deal to make the game exclusive to Epic's platform while still allowing people who pre-ordered on Steam to receive the game on Steam. It's not like people who have bought the game on Steam aren't getting it. They are. And everyone who wants it on Steam will be able to get it on Steam a year from now.

Valve built Steam by lying to everyone. They lied to their publisher. They secured the fragile right to release HL2 digitally THROUGH BLACKMAIL. Then they proceeded to lie to Vivendi's face by claiming that they had no plans to use Steam to replace retail. They lied to their customers repeatedly for years, and never really stopped. I'm not particularly fond of Epic, but you don't see Epic behaving the way Valve did. They're moneyhatting like crazy, but they're not behaving like demented Mark Zuckerberg-tier sociopaths. By all means, be critical of Epic using their money as a cudgel to gain market share.

But people who are fanatically loyal to Steam need to take a look in the mirror. Steam has a cultlike loyalty that may be partially earned due to some good stuff they've done with Linux gaming, for example. But go back to the dawn of Steam, and it was a group of pathological liars backstabbing everyone naive enough to trust them. Valve have a really skeevy past.

If Valve started paying developers to release their games on Steam instead of the Epic Store, how many Steam fans would object to that? Not many, I argue. While Epic's moneyhatting is a valid point of criticism, it's not really the moneyhatting most of these people object to. They're simply Valve loyalists. Many have forgotten how Half-Life 2 (which again, Valve didn't own) was made into a Steam exclusive to push a platform that has quite specifically BROKEN Half-Life 2 in alarming ways over the years. And of course Valve never fixed HL2 because they don't give a shit. But that's another discussion entirely.
If Valve started paying for exclusives is call that out as the piece of shit dumbfucj practice it is. Why the fuck would I want them to waste money on useless shit like that instead of investing in further features for the client?

Also funnily enough, you know what was the single moneyhat Valve has done?
A moneyhat to make games not exclusive.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
If Valve forced Bethesda (ha, the idea is ludicrous by itself) to put Doom Eternal only on Steam people would be pissed. I don't think is that hard to understand that is this strategy what people have problems with...
Nobody is being "forced" here. These are cases of developers outright being paid to put their game exclusively on the Epic Store. As far as I am aware, there's no NES Nintendo-style "If you want to release on the Epic Store, you can't release anywhere else" nonsense going on. If that was the case, outrage would be very, very justified because such tactics are incredibly low.
 

Karlinel

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
7,826
Mallorca, Spain
I guess I'm gonna be called many things but...what's the big deal? Moneyhatting on a console implies forcing user of the other systems to suck it up, in PC you just download a different free launcher. I get that you may have doubts regarding security, or perhaps it's fear the price will rise relative to steam's monopolistic prices?
Please, as a console user it's something I just can't understand.