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Thoughts on the kingdom hearts writing?
- Thread starter MillionIII
- Start date
I'm going through the series for the first time and am just over half way through Recoded.
It's fun, endearing, stupid and cheesy. Definitely not for everybody. Also, frustratingly full of filler/padding with the unique disney stuff in each game being nearly inconsequential most of the time. But funnily, while the first was probably the best at making the Disney stuff part of the story, it also happens to be the weakest in terms of flow. Things certain characters do seem super forced and basically done to get the story going rather than seeming natural.Future entries get much better at this and playing these in quick succession really makes it apparent how much they've improved in flow/presentation since the first.
Also, probably the most I've ever smiled while going through games.
It's fun, endearing, stupid and cheesy. Definitely not for everybody. Also, frustratingly full of filler/padding with the unique disney stuff in each game being nearly inconsequential most of the time. But funnily, while the first was probably the best at making the Disney stuff part of the story, it also happens to be the weakest in terms of flow. Things certain characters do seem super forced and basically done to get the story going rather than seeming natural.Future entries get much better at this and playing these in quick succession really makes it apparent how much they've improved in flow/presentation since the first.
Also, probably the most I've ever smiled while going through games.
I played the first game and I'm 12 hours into 2, and I couldn't tell you what the hell the overall plot is about. I get some of the basic story points but I watched a recap video of the story including the 3DS stuff and I could not follow it at all. It made me feel stupid.
"The master of masters created a key blade that could monitor the actions of said keyblade and created a box that nobody knows the contents of but he presumably does and the nobodies created a secret group called Organization 13 and Roxas actually....."
My head nearly exploded in two minutes and the video was over 30.
"The master of masters created a key blade that could monitor the actions of said keyblade and created a box that nobody knows the contents of but he presumably does and the nobodies created a secret group called Organization 13 and Roxas actually....."
My head nearly exploded in two minutes and the video was over 30.
It depends on the scene and story thread.
The Blank Points scene is fantastic throughout (no irony) and I think pretty much any dialogue involving Xemnas and Ansem the Wise is done very competently.
But the rest is way too scattered and nebulous.
The Blank Points scene is fantastic throughout (no irony) and I think pretty much any dialogue involving Xemnas and Ansem the Wise is done very competently.
But the rest is way too scattered and nebulous.
It's like the
Obama chuckled, "You mean the chaos emeralds?"
of video games.
Nahhhh
NAH
Chain of Memories was the start of the BS
Remember how in only that game specifically Riku was obsessed with smelling things:
Chain of Memories feels like Disney said "well seems like they got this no need for us to oversee this as heavily as before"
It's pretty bad but super enjoyable? Probably because it's just a huge nostalgia trip mixed with a lot of fantastic original characters. Also the gameplay is very fun, KH1 hasn't aged well imo but I do remember it feeling great back in the day, most of the others still play decently or great depending on the title in question.
Man, I totally forgot about the smell parts in Chain of Memories. What a bizarre idea
The plot is all over the place but the cast is legitimately endearing. It's a series that hinges entirely upon the idea of friendship and they do a good job of having characters that I can really believe are friends.
The narrative never feels disingenuous, even when I can hardly understand the plot hanging over it, and I'm all in for the character relationships. The writing is over the top in regards to characters caring about each other in a way that still feels pretty honest, and for me that's the core of what keeps me interested in what's happening.
Also, I legit think the KH2 Roxas storyline is super compelling and the idea of being torn between independence and fulfilling a nessecary role was well done.
The narrative never feels disingenuous, even when I can hardly understand the plot hanging over it, and I'm all in for the character relationships. The writing is over the top in regards to characters caring about each other in a way that still feels pretty honest, and for me that's the core of what keeps me interested in what's happening.
Also, I legit think the KH2 Roxas storyline is super compelling and the idea of being torn between independence and fulfilling a nessecary role was well done.
Atrocious and nonsensical. Worst JRPG writing ever. Star Ocean 4 is better even.
But it has created something unique
And the high budget of the games and how fun they are, along with Disney/FF being present take away a lot of the bad
FF
But it has created something unique
And the high budget of the games and how fun they are, along with Disney/FF being present take away a lot of the bad
FF
I actually think it's conceptually amazing. It's very artsy with its concept of self and bonds and meaning of existence and the potential for darkness to corrupt the heart.
The line-to-line dialogue is often cheesy and disjointed (in some games more than others, DDD, I'm looking at you) but the ideas are really appealing. So I guess you could say I like the storyboard, but find issue with the dialogue.
The line-to-line dialogue is often cheesy and disjointed (in some games more than others, DDD, I'm looking at you) but the ideas are really appealing. So I guess you could say I like the storyboard, but find issue with the dialogue.
It's just horrible. It's not even the stupid plot, but just everything about it all. The dialogue, the direction of the cut-scenes, the voice acting, the storytelling etc. It's just one huge mixture of crap. I don't think I've played a game with worse writing frankly. It's definitely bottom of the barrel. It's the kind of series that forces you re-evaluate how harsh you are with your criticisms of other video games and their writing, because well, they could be a lot worse. They could be Kingdom Hearts. The problem isn't that it's just one or two elements that need improvement. It's everything. Not one aspect of the writing is done even competently.
It always struck me as a game that that thinks its way deeper than it actually is. So much metaphorical talk of dark and light but its like they just use these words because they sound deep not because they actually know what they are talking about
Basically this. To me it's supposed to be FF + Disney, but now it's half their own anime characters taking up space. The disney stuff, writing the wrongs of worlds that are getting out of whack etc from the first game was charming.
The more screen time some plastic doll in a Hot Topic robe named Xylitol gets, the less I get to see charming disney x final fantasy magic.
From a character dialogue point of view it's fun. The Disney characters feel like Disney characters and FF characters feel like FF characters.
My issues are with the plot writing itself. In particular it does something that's pretty common in plenty of JRPGs where it seems to feel like it needs constant twists to make it a good story.
Some really enjoy that style of writing, but I find that after awhile it causes the plot to get very confusing, and pretty much impossible to explain without making it sound silly.
My issues are with the plot writing itself. In particular it does something that's pretty common in plenty of JRPGs where it seems to feel like it needs constant twists to make it a good story.
Some really enjoy that style of writing, but I find that after awhile it causes the plot to get very confusing, and pretty much impossible to explain without making it sound silly.
Just wondering if anyone ever ask Nomura about his writing? I just wonder what the thought process behind this mess.
This sounds like a bad recap video. But I guess in general, it's difficult to give context to 12 titles in 30 minutes especially when there are so many proper nouns...
That's not to say the plot is by any means "well done", it has a lot of flaws but it really needs time to steep so you can actually process it a little. More than anything, the characters and their relationships drive the motivations of the games and that's hard to convey in recaps. And if people don't like the characters, then they especially won't tolerate the story.
Its perfectly fine by video game standards, the only problem is that critical story elements are spread out across numerous non-numbered entries on several different consoles, which is rather unique to most franchises. People rag on it because they only played 1 or 2, ignored all the other games in the series, and then got mad when they read a plot synopsis they couldn't understand.
It's in the so bad it's great category.
Hilariously pretentious and wholesome at the same time.
Hilariously pretentious and wholesome at the same time.
Even if you follow every game the story is a complete obtuse mess. You need a flow chart just to keep track of how many versions each character has in the game. Its bad even by video game standards.
Its a crazy shit.
Its odd because its kinda interesting in a way...except for the time traveling stuff.
Its odd because its kinda interesting in a way...except for the time traveling stuff.
After the direction the series took post- KH1, I try not to think too much about KH's writing. (That's a lie, lol. I'm really bitter.) It's like the worst parts of Star Wars and Harry Potter squished together.
The constant escalation of secret character reveals, especially the villains, is irritating as hell. Hopefully KH3 doesn't follow the trend. (It absolutely will.) It's like an onion-layer reveal of villains. You thought it was this villain? It was secretly this villain all along! No, it was this villain! ...wait, no, it was this villain! ...fuck it, it's all the villains!
KH1 - Ansem is a bad guy that did shady experiments, there is a battle for light and dark, etc. No complaints.
Chain of Memories - It turns out there was over a dozen assholes in black coats who were doing their thing whilst Sora was adventuring in KH1. Plus Namine.
KH2 - 'Ansem' was never really Ansem, he took his name from another scientist who was his mentor. He was originally called Xehanort, and now his Nobody named Xemnas is the big bad. Also, Sora and Kairi have nobodies!
358/2 Days - There was a girl named Xion, who was the reason Sora couldn't get his memories back after CoM, but she looks more like Kairi. But she can look like anyone? I don't know.
BBS - Meet the original Xehanort! And it turns out the body who we thought was Xehanort really belonged to Terra. We also find out Ven's been in Sora's heart since pre-KH1, he's the reason Roxas doesn't look like Sora, but the embodiment of his darkness looks like a teenage Sora. Sigh.
DDD - Now there's timetravel, and human Xehanort horcruxes, and Axel can wield a fucking keyblade, and I'm not sober enough for this.
KHUx - Keyblade wielders everywhere! You can wear a space suit, a silly hat, balloons, and wield a keyblade simultaneously if you want to. Also there was a guy called the Master of Masters and he's probably orchestrated everything. He's also put his eyeball into what eventually becomes Xehanort's keyblade to be handed down from master to pupil so he can see what happens in the future. As you do.
FML.
(That was a terrible summary, but you get the idea.)
Positively, though, as a few users have talked about, I think a big appeal for the series is the characters themselves, and the relatable issues they face at a fundamental level, however extreme the plot circumstances may be. eg. Riku trying to make up for his mistakes in KH1 and growing tremendously as a character in the process, Terra's own insecurities and his naivete being his downfall, Ven's coping with the disintegration of his new family and dealing with his traumatic past, Aqua's steadfast loyalty, sacrifice, and her own battle of not falling into the darkness/deep depression, Axel's conflict with saving his friends, Roxas and Xion's struggles with identity, etc. The Foretellers in KHUx are a fascinating mix of good intentions meeting complete paranoia. It seems like KH3 will be exploring some of Sora's own insecurities that were set-up in DDD, where he isn't strong enough by himself, and needs his friends to support him.
Annnnddd then there's Kairi. GIVE HER SOMETHING TO DO, NOMURA. COME THE FUCK ON.
Also, the trio combination of Sora, Goofy, and Donald have no right to be as endearing as they are. Sometimes, a family is a mellow bipedal dog with a Southern drawl, a temperamental bipedal duck, and a kid with giant clown shoes and really spiky hair.
This! KH beautifully summarized, ha.
Also, this! The ideas KH explores thematically are really interesting and genuinely touching, it's just the execution is a bit... ohgodwhy at times.
The constant escalation of secret character reveals, especially the villains, is irritating as hell. Hopefully KH3 doesn't follow the trend. (It absolutely will.) It's like an onion-layer reveal of villains. You thought it was this villain? It was secretly this villain all along! No, it was this villain! ...wait, no, it was this villain! ...fuck it, it's all the villains!
KH1 - Ansem is a bad guy that did shady experiments, there is a battle for light and dark, etc. No complaints.
Chain of Memories - It turns out there was over a dozen assholes in black coats who were doing their thing whilst Sora was adventuring in KH1. Plus Namine.
KH2 - 'Ansem' was never really Ansem, he took his name from another scientist who was his mentor. He was originally called Xehanort, and now his Nobody named Xemnas is the big bad. Also, Sora and Kairi have nobodies!
358/2 Days - There was a girl named Xion, who was the reason Sora couldn't get his memories back after CoM, but she looks more like Kairi. But she can look like anyone? I don't know.
BBS - Meet the original Xehanort! And it turns out the body who we thought was Xehanort really belonged to Terra. We also find out Ven's been in Sora's heart since pre-KH1, he's the reason Roxas doesn't look like Sora, but the embodiment of his darkness looks like a teenage Sora. Sigh.
DDD - Now there's timetravel, and human Xehanort horcruxes, and Axel can wield a fucking keyblade, and I'm not sober enough for this.
KHUx - Keyblade wielders everywhere! You can wear a space suit, a silly hat, balloons, and wield a keyblade simultaneously if you want to. Also there was a guy called the Master of Masters and he's probably orchestrated everything. He's also put his eyeball into what eventually becomes Xehanort's keyblade to be handed down from master to pupil so he can see what happens in the future. As you do.
FML.
(That was a terrible summary, but you get the idea.)
Positively, though, as a few users have talked about, I think a big appeal for the series is the characters themselves, and the relatable issues they face at a fundamental level, however extreme the plot circumstances may be. eg. Riku trying to make up for his mistakes in KH1 and growing tremendously as a character in the process, Terra's own insecurities and his naivete being his downfall, Ven's coping with the disintegration of his new family and dealing with his traumatic past, Aqua's steadfast loyalty, sacrifice, and her own battle of not falling into the darkness/deep depression, Axel's conflict with saving his friends, Roxas and Xion's struggles with identity, etc. The Foretellers in KHUx are a fascinating mix of good intentions meeting complete paranoia. It seems like KH3 will be exploring some of Sora's own insecurities that were set-up in DDD, where he isn't strong enough by himself, and needs his friends to support him.
Annnnddd then there's Kairi. GIVE HER SOMETHING TO DO, NOMURA. COME THE FUCK ON.
Also, the trio combination of Sora, Goofy, and Donald have no right to be as endearing as they are. Sometimes, a family is a mellow bipedal dog with a Southern drawl, a temperamental bipedal duck, and a kid with giant clown shoes and really spiky hair.
This! KH beautifully summarized, ha.
Also, this! The ideas KH explores thematically are really interesting and genuinely touching, it's just the execution is a bit... ohgodwhy at times.
I love the series. I've played through most of the games multiple times at this point, and I do genuinely, unironically like the story/characters of the games quite a lot, and it kind of annoys me when people act like the only people who can like the stories of these games are people who are blinded by nostalgia.
It's probably the cheesiest, hammiest story I've ever had the joy of watching unfold though, and that definitely doesn't appeal to everybody, but I personally find it incredibly endearing. Dumb certainly, but oh so charming.
It's probably the cheesiest, hammiest story I've ever had the joy of watching unfold though, and that definitely doesn't appeal to everybody, but I personally find it incredibly endearing. Dumb certainly, but oh so charming.
I love Kingdom Hearts, but all the stuff about hearts and darkness and nobodies and whatnot is incoherent nonsense, albeit fun nonsense (just don't think too hard about any of it because holy shit). The series would absolutely benefit from less convolution - the first game still has the best story because it's uncomplicated and straightforward (Chain of Memories is also relatively straightforward, but complicated slightly by the dual campaigns, where things don't make total sense unless you play through both Sora and Riku's storylines. It's still a solid story though).
I just finished a replay of 2 and, on top of the massive heap of needlessly convoluted confusing pap, I had forgotten just how poorly structured the narrative is. The main villain isn't properly introduced until right before the final world and almost none of the villains have personalities or proper motivations. They just kind of show up, say something vague about the nature of hearts, and then vanish for a few hours before they reappear to fight you (and then die). Everyone is needlessly vague and mysterious until the very end, which makes 9/10 of the story feel empty and pointless. The stories in the Disney worlds aren't very well told either - they're poorly strung together bullet points of the films that are ultimately inconsequential to the overall plot. They feel like side stories even though they make up the bulk of the game.
358/2's overall story worked pretty well in the game (from what I remember), and was a good idea conceptually, but then of course Nomura had to throw in the twist of Xion, which made everything way more complex than it needed it be. 358/2's story did not work without the context of the game though, and the "film" in the HD ReMix was a chore to get through.
I don't remember BBS very much because I only played it once when it first came out, so we'll see how that goes on my upcoming re-playthrough...
I never played Coded/Re: Coded, DDD, or any of the others so I'm looking forward to that in the coming months.
I just finished a replay of 2 and, on top of the massive heap of needlessly convoluted confusing pap, I had forgotten just how poorly structured the narrative is. The main villain isn't properly introduced until right before the final world and almost none of the villains have personalities or proper motivations. They just kind of show up, say something vague about the nature of hearts, and then vanish for a few hours before they reappear to fight you (and then die). Everyone is needlessly vague and mysterious until the very end, which makes 9/10 of the story feel empty and pointless. The stories in the Disney worlds aren't very well told either - they're poorly strung together bullet points of the films that are ultimately inconsequential to the overall plot. They feel like side stories even though they make up the bulk of the game.
358/2's overall story worked pretty well in the game (from what I remember), and was a good idea conceptually, but then of course Nomura had to throw in the twist of Xion, which made everything way more complex than it needed it be. 358/2's story did not work without the context of the game though, and the "film" in the HD ReMix was a chore to get through.
I don't remember BBS very much because I only played it once when it first came out, so we'll see how that goes on my upcoming re-playthrough...
I never played Coded/Re: Coded, DDD, or any of the others so I'm looking forward to that in the coming months.
This is me except in also u to the music, gameplay and FF cameos. I couldn't give a shit about the story. I do like Aqua more than Sora who I find boring. I wish Aqua was the MC.
The overall story is a mess. But as everyone else has said, it's fun.
The Disney worlds also manage to have pretty simple and straightforward narratives that hit the nostalgia twang which I always thought was just as important to the series as whatever the dark seeker stuff is.
The Disney worlds also manage to have pretty simple and straightforward narratives that hit the nostalgia twang which I always thought was just as important to the series as whatever the dark seeker stuff is.
This is how I feel, too. There's just something about how sincere everything plays out that puts a smile on my face, even if it is certainly extremely cheesy.
Honestly, I think a lot of people are being a bit too down with their opinions of the series if they say that the story/writing is terrible and only really enjoy it in a ironic sense, but then they see a story trailer of KH3 and say:
"Oh crap, we got to save *REDACTED*!"
"Wait, does this mean *REDACTED* is coming back!? Woah!"
I mean, you wouldn't be saying stuff like that if you didn't care about the plot, characters, etc., so I think that in at least some way the story and writing resonate more with people than they let on. I can understand, though, since there really isn't anything else like KH when it comes to gaming.
It doesn't really try to do much emotional or philosophical depth, which makes the whole thing ring fairly hollow to me. There are lots of characters and lots of things happen, but that doesn't make the story any deeper. It just means there are more things.
People excuse it by saying it's anime, but there are plenty of anime style games that at least try to make deeper characters and explore more interesting themes. For a recent example, see Tales of Vesperia. Vesperia has a very simple story overall, but at least it tries to set up a legitimate moral dilemma that is worth thinking about.
People excuse it by saying it's anime, but there are plenty of anime style games that at least try to make deeper characters and explore more interesting themes. For a recent example, see Tales of Vesperia. Vesperia has a very simple story overall, but at least it tries to set up a legitimate moral dilemma that is worth thinking about.
