Thought Exercise: If you (for example) disagreed with Raiden being the protag in MGS2 why are you ok with Hornet in Hollowknight 2?

[mutantmagnet]

It just dawned on me that noone has complained about Hornet being the protag in the sequel. Usually people hold a strong attachment even to silent characters like Gordon Freeman or Sonic for various reasons. It is extremely rare for mainline series to straight up change the primary characters and the first time this actually occured there was a lot of opinions over that introduction.


So what has changed to not even get a joke about the change?

Have you matured over the years?

You nee a silent protag to be established over multiple games before you hold an attachment?

The fact that Team Cherry had Hornet as planned for an expansion (instead of f ull blown game) helped you rationalize why you are ok with it in this case when in most cases you are sure you wouldn't be otherwise?


I actually haven't played MGS2 myself but I remember the backlash over Raiden.


Personally I think it is great when videogame teams are actually doing this because you don't change a primary protag without putting a lot of thought into it which leads to a more rewarding experience than following the same character every time.

 

[The Bear]

Marketing I guess? Raiden was kept secret in MGS2 marketing, and everyone was left to believe that Snake would the Protagonist of the game all way through. Comparison with Silksong, the trailer reveals new protagonist immediately.

 

[JehutyRunner]

Because Raiden was hidden until the last possible second. Kojima had put out trailers where it showed Snake being played throughout the Big Shell.

Whereas Hornet has been put front and centre as the main character of the game. And I say that as someone who adores MGS2 but never played Hollow Knight (though has it on the Switch still waiting to be played).

 

[Seiez]

Because mgs2 teased snake as the playable protagonist?

Because snake is a fully fleshed out character, unlike the mc from HK?

The premise of this thread is rather silk thin.

 

[Okabe]

Marketing I guess? Raiden was kept secret in MGS2 marketing, and everyone was left to believe that Snake would the Protagonist of the game all way through. Comparison with Silksong, the trailer reveals new protagonist immediately.

Click to shrink...

 

[big_z]

I was fine with mgs2 as is. People got angry because it was advertised that you'd be playing as snake. Raiden was the secret twist.

When it comes to hollow knight I don't think anyone is attached to the beetle thing you play as and the developer is up front with what to expect in the sequel.

 

[Deleted member 36578]

What???? These two things are nothing alike besides a games sequel having a new main lead.

Why didn't you bring up Prototype 2 op?
What about Zone of the Enders 2nd Runner!?!!??!!!
Infamous Second Son????????? Like omg!!!!!!! Why?????!!!!! Why do these games change the main character !?!?!!

 

[It’s Time To Go]

You seem to have missed the whole journey of raiden being the playable character in MGS 2.

 

[Joni]

Because Solid Snake doesn't make me go 'Who?' unlike the lead of Hollow Knight. And of course, Metal Gear Solid 2 was made to generate that controversy.

 

[Soj]

Because they didn't build the game up for years, releasing trailers and paid demos featuring the original character as if he was going to be the main protagonist.

Fuck Raiden.

 

[Chivalry]

Raiden was bait and switch.

 

[Darkstorne]

OP, opening a can of worms with Raiden here =P

If Hollowknight 2 was being advertised with the same main character, but then forced you to play as Hornet instead, it might be similar.

 

[Knight in Shining Armani]

Thought Exercise for OP: why were people pissed about playing as Raiden in MGS2 but fine with playing as him in Metal Gear Rising?

 

[Stop It]

You admit you didn't even play MGS 2 yet you're asking this as if they're comparable.

They're not. People don't mind about different protagonists in games, they mind about being baited like the build up to MGS2. The fact that Raiden was an arse in 2 and Snake is beloved by the Metal Gear fanbase didn't help.

 

[-JD-]

The fact that you already know, right now and well before the sequel's release, that Hornet will be the protag of HK2 pretty much answers your question.

 

[Falconbox]

For everyone who says "because Raiden was a secret"...

what about Halo 5? We knew Locke would be a big focus and people still didn't like it, and were vocal not playing as MC.

 

[Mikebison]

For everyone who says "because Raiden was a secret"...

what about Halo 5? We knew Locke would be a big focus and people still didn't like it, and were vocal not playing as MC.

Click to shrink...

It's almost like there's not just one reaction that fits every situation that has a slight, passing resemblance.

 

[AllThingsPurple]

This thread was not well thought out.

 

[Eumi]

OP you should probs play the game if you're gonna make a thread like this.

Because two things:

-MGS2 was advertised as a game where you play as Snake. Silksong is advertised as Hornets game. If you play as Hornet for 2 hours before switching to a different protag, yeah, that would piss some people off.

-Raiden has a personality that differs from Snake's, and therefore some people won't like him. This is compounded by being a new character so he doesn't have existing fans. On the other hand, Hornet is an existing character that most people really like. I'm sure if there are people out there who hate her, they're mad she's the protag in the sequel. But I haven't seen anyone say they dislike her.

 

[mutantmagnet]

What???? These two things are nothing alike besides a games sequel having a new main lead.

Why didn't you bring up Prototype 2 op?
What about Zone of the Enders 2nd Runner!?!!??!!!
Infamous Second Son????????? Like omg!!!!!!! Why?????!!!!! Why do these games change the main character !?!?!!

Click to shrink...

As I said. MGS2 is an example. You can talk about all those games if you care to do so.


My own personal experience with a protag change was in the Mechwarrior series and I personally thought it was awesome but a lot of people hated it because what they did was make person we played previously as the bad guy in the sequel and all our decisions in the previous game were ported over.

That was a level of personal attachment that no other game achieved in my time so far.

 

[Jonneh]

For everyone who says "because Raiden was a secret"...

what about Halo 5? We knew Locke would be a big focus and people still didn't like it, and were vocal not playing as MC.

Click to shrink...

Locke was a unique case in that he was very boring

You can feel 343 wanted Locke to become the new face of the franchise in their Halo 5 marketing but the game itself doesn't match that vision, he feels like Halo's Poochy more than anything.

 

[mutantmagnet]

Because they didn't build the game up for years, releasing trailers and paid demos featuring the original character as if he was going to be the main protagonist.

Fuck Raiden.

Click to shrink...

There were even demos? I already understood the bait and switch responses but this is next level baiting. I can see more why people get apprehensive when they talk about Kojima trailers. You'll never forget that type of fuckery.

 

[CrocodileGrin]

Maturity has nothing to do with it. MGS2 was a bait and switch. Imagine if all of the new God of War game promos with Kratos were in reality the first hour of the game and then you surprisingly play as Atreus for 80% of it. The Hollow Knight sequel is not the same thing.

 

[Eila]

Metal Gear was a franchise. And Hornet was always going to be playable.

 

[Joni]

There were even demos? I already understood the bait and switch responses but this is next level baiting. I can see more why people get apprehensive when they talk about Kojima trailers. You'll never forget that type of fuckery.

Click to shrink...

Yes. The demo focused on the Plant portion. Was really good for the sales of Zone of the Enders.

 

[Rendering...]

Bizarre comparison. These cases are obviously very different if you look at the two games in question. Snake was MGS' established protagonist who everyone expected to play for pretty much the whole sequel. Raiden was not what fans wanted. He was really the personification of what most players didn't want.

On the other hand, the Knight is barely a character at all in Hollow Knight. He's defined mostly through his appearance and gameplay mechanics, at least for the majority of the game. So naturally, Hornet, a character who looks at least equally cool and has a flashier moveset, doesn't feel like a downgrade or a betrayal of players' expectations.

 

[Gold Arsene]

Because Raiden was a pretty boy compared to the manly man that was Snake and that's gay./s


I fucking hate the 2000's Metal Gear fan base.

Yes for some I'm sure it was because the trailer lied and Snakes an established character but crimney were there some baaaaaaddddd people in the complainers.

 

[Deleted member 5028]

For everyone who says "because Raiden was a secret"...

what about Halo 5? We knew Locke would be a big focus and people still didn't like it, and were vocal not playing as MC.

Click to shrink...

The problem with Halo 5 is that the story they teased wasn't the story we received.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

I don't see how anyone who actually finished hollow knight would have expected anything else.

 

[mutantmagnet]

The fact that you already know, right now and well before the sequel's release, that Hornet will be the protag of HK2 pretty much answers your question.

Click to shrink...

It's not so cut and dry though. When people suggest using a different character as the main protag in Legend of Zelda or Metroid you will have people who will object to that. So I was curious what people thought of Hollowknight as character themselves and how they form an attachment to silent protags. Framing it within the context of MGS has some issues but I'm ok with the discussion so far except for the posts that needlessly say my OP isn't well thought out as if they are adding anything constructive to the discussion.

 

[Gold Arsene]

Because they didn't build the game up for years, releasing trailers and paid demos featuring the original character as if he was going to be the main protagonist.

Fuck Raiden.

Click to shrink...

Raiden is better then Snake.


Yeah I said it.

 

[Haze]

MGS2 as a game and experience is much better with how the game was marketed. Kojimaa wouldn't have been able to pull the rug out from under the player the way he did and much of the game's pathos and ethos would not have worked at all if we knew anything about Raiden or his presence in the game.

Also, if you beat Hollow Knight it would make sense anyway?

 

[Sander VF]

The Knight is also kind of a cypher, even in lore.

He has a cute design, but don't think people are attached to him enough to care that they'll be using another character for a different outing.

It also helps that Hornet is a character beloved by the fans. Can't see anyone being upset by the prospect of playing as her. Possibly a fringest of fringe of gg types offended by her probable bug vagina I guess... but I don't think even those exist.

 

[Rendering...]

Raiden is better then Snake.


Yeah I said it.

Click to shrink...

That's a hard case to make based solely on MGS2.

If you count the later Metal Gear games and Metal Gear Rising, it would make a lot more sense.

 

[Joni]

It's not so cut and dry though. When people suggest using a different character as the main protag in Legend of Zelda or Metroid you will have people who will object to that. So I was curious what people thought of Hollowknight as character themselves and how they form an attachment to silent protags. Framing it within the context of MGS has some issues but I'm ok with the discussion so far except for the posts that needlessly say my OP isn't well thought out as if they are adding anything constructive to the discussion.

Click to shrink...

It might be better if you didn't try to compare some of the biggest franchises to what comes down to a single succesful indie game. Zelda, Metroid Prime, MEtal Gear Solid, ... are all long running franchises built up around specific characters. Even at only three games deep, 'Snake' had built up a following. Of course people will react to that character changing. Hollow Knight doesn't have that history, and its main character is quite meaningless at that. So it ends up in the category of games like Grand Theft Auto where the main is a semi-blank slate to fit in a specific story.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

Aside from the obvious differences, there's also the fact that Hornet's campaign was announced as DLC and now we're getting a full-fledged sequel compared to Raiden "stealing" Snake's place in MGS2.

Not that I ever minded the bait and switch in MGS2. It's rare that a game dares to surprise you like that and Raiden is a great protagonist.

 

[Gold Arsene]

That's a hard case to make based solely on MGS2.

If you count the later Metal Gear games and Metal Gear Rising, it would make a lot more sense.

Click to shrink...

I mean I always like Raiden but yeah 4 and Rising made him my favorite.

 

[-JD-]

It's not so cut and dry though. When people suggest using a different character as the main protag in Legend of Zelda or Metroid you will have people who will object to that. So I was curious what people thought of Hollowknight as character themselves and how they form an attachment to silent protags. Framing it within the context of MGS has some issues but I'm ok with the discussion so far except for the posts that needlessly say my OP isn't well thought out as if they are adding anything constructive to the discussion.

Click to shrink...

Every fanbase has their own tastes and expectations. To try and apply one set of behavioral rules on everyone is a waste of time. Don't bother.

As for people saying your OP is poorly thought out...well, that's because it's mostly confusing and you try to make an argument about silent protags but use MGS2/Raiden as part of the argument, despite neither Snake nor Raiden being silent protagonists. They talk, and talk a lot.Then you say that you haven't actually played MGS2, which makes me assume you weren't around when MGS2 released or you didn't really follow the controversy around it at that time and don't really understand why gamers were angry about it at the time.

If any of that is incorrect, please correct me, but I can't really make much sense of your op.

 

[Rendering...]

I mean I always like Raiden but yeah 4 and Rising made him my favorite.

Click to shrink...

Those games made him a legit great character. MGR2 really needs to happen.

 

[monstar]

Hornet is a fucking badass, Raiden is a whiny loser.

 

[John Dunbar]

there were riots because of steamworld dig 2 i'm sure

 

[Eumi]

It's not so cut and dry though. When people suggest using a different character as the main protag in Legend of Zelda or Metroid you will have people who will object to that. So I was curious what people thought of Hollowknight as character themselves and how they form an attachment to silent protags. Framing it within the context of MGS has some issues but I'm ok with the discussion so far except for the posts that needlessly say my OP isn't well thought out as if they are adding anything constructive to the discussion.

Click to shrink...

Your OP isn't a good basis for discussion. That's why people are criticising it. Its worth editing honestly, since you don't actually make any real point with the examples you've used, nor seem to understand why people feel the way they do.

And as for Link and Samus, well, they're both very different from the Knight as well. They're legacy characters, characters who have starred in multiple games from their franchises. People love playing as them, and they expect it, it's comfortable. But The Knight isn't that at all. The Knight has a very specific relation to Hollow Knight. The people who love that game are the people who understand that The Knight's story is over. I honestly have to ask if you've even played Hollow Knight, since if you had it should be clear why expecting The Knight to be the protag for the sequel is silly. Hell, one of the newer endings even sets up Hornet as the next protag. There was never once any sort of expectation that you were ever going to play as The Knight again, and in doing so they'd be actively going against a small part of what makes Hollow Knight great.

The bottom line is: Hollow Knight is different from all the situations you've posted, and so the different reaction should be expected. It's nothing about "maturity" or whatever other words you want to throw out to make people simply not liking something seem lesser. It's just not a comparable situation. There are also a ton of franchises which constantly switch protags that no one complains about, and those games span a wide array of situations on their own, some of which are comparable to Hollow Knight (say, Persona 3 to Persona 4) and some aren't (say, the Final Fantasy games).

 

[Shroki]

For everyone who says "because Raiden was a secret"...

what about Halo 5? We knew Locke would be a big focus and people still didn't like it, and were vocal not playing as MC.

Click to shrink...

You really don't see how side-lining one of the most iconic characters in the history of the industry for a new, lame duck character nobody gave a fuck about is different from Hollow Knight and it's sequel? The MC of Hollow Knight is intentionally not even a character. And, spoiler,

Spoiler

doesn't he die in every ending?

.

 

[stan423321]

For everyone who says "because Raiden was a secret"...

what about Halo 5? We knew Locke would be a big focus and people still didn't like it, and were vocal not playing as MC.

Click to shrink...

Funny thing is that I heard Halo 2 pulled an MGS2.

At any rate

1. people may hate particular characters themselves
2. there's no franchise expectations in Hollow Knight (compare with MG, Halo, Final Fantasy, Street Fighter)
3. there were other reasons to dislike Halo 5

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

i never had a problem with playing raiden, even as a teenager! Sure i was a bit disappointed but i was so hyped when i finally saw snake doing his own thing during the mission!

 

[Syriel]

There were even demos? I already understood the bait and switch responses but this is next level baiting. I can see more why people get apprehensive when they talk about Kojima trailers. You'll never forget that type of fuckery.

Click to shrink...

Konami even misled the press, showing off MGS2 as if it were a Solid Snake game.

 

[Deleted member 2652]

the main character in hollow knight was just a vessel

 

[K Samedi]

Metal Gear has much more story and character focus than Hollow Knight. I really didn't care about Hollow Knight story and I didn't even understand it until I read some stuff online. Metal Gear is different though. Snake plays an important role in the Metal Gear universe story wise so playing as a random dude in MGS2 felt weirfd to me.

 

[Grug]

False Equivalence: The Thread.

 

[Liethe]

the games are so different I feel like it's already silly to compare them.

Over the course of mgs, you get to know snake. You get attached to his way of talking, or the way the other characters interact with him over codec. most importantly, raiden is completely missing. you get no experience with him, you don't even know that he exists.

in hollow knight, you play as a literal "hollow knight". a vessel. he never speaks, he doesn't really do anything that you as the player don't make him do. he's an extension of you in this world. hornet is well established during his game as the most important side character, earning her own fanbase almost immediately. people eagerly wait for the dlc where you get to play her.

seems pretty natural considering the differences.