Those who did not like story beat of certain character in TLOU 2, can I ask you something? (Open TLOU 2 spoilers)

[Mobius 1]

Having stayed spoiler free, I did expect the story to have some sort of redemption arc for Joel, even if he died in the process.

It was sudden, but I enjoyed the game for what it was. I couldn't care much for Abby.

 

[Coi]

I think they missed the opportunity to go deeper on Joel's "other side" like a more "evil" character and not the hero of the first game, because at least for me the way Abby killed Joel was torture.
Also, at least for me, Joel did well on killing Abby's dad. I mean, why the fuck that doctor wanted to "kill" Ellie?... Why anyone would want to kill the only cure for the pandemic? lol.
Also, fuck Abby, forever. What a waste of a character.

 

[CaptainKashup]

I love Joel with all of my heart and I will miss him, but his death was masterfuly executed(lol).

 

[NotLiquid]

Joel dying was, taken on its own, a solid decision that raised my expectations for the story. It was a pretty good scene and (mostly) shot well. What didn't work about it was the fallout from said decision, and where the narrative as a whole goes as a result of the decision. It's a holistically lesser story because the writers didn't find any engaging way to substitute his potency thanks to his absence, nor is the tradeoff particularly worth it when it uses its main shocking plot development as setup, only leaving everything else to a rather boilerplate play-by-play.

 

[Am_I_Evil]

Yeah and it was awesome.

Gamers complaining about "lying" in the marketing are really annoying and boring IMHO.

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Marvel does the same shit all the time and i don't recall people whining about it so much (ie: Hulk in Wakanda in the Infinity War trailers)

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I didn't dislike the death, but ...I loved Joel in part 1....so, why didn't I feel anything when he died? I'm not sure how I would have done it myself. I just know that his death was a huge nothing burger for me.

 

[Donepalace]

1.) I felt it happened much too suddenly in the story

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wasn't that the point though things don't always work out the way you want in life just when they where on the brink of being father daughter duo again(as we discovered in the ending) he was brutally taken from Ellie life is a bitch

 

[My Blue Heaven]

the whole abby thing is also a less elegant more cheap version of the raiden twist from MGS2 and they had to kill someone who is apparently loved by the fans to make it work. i don't really care about joel either way but that's what it seems like

 

[Veelk]

3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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Meeting Henry for the first time after being attacked by him in the middle of enemy territory: Anyway, we got a group out over at the radio tower, you wanna come?
Joel: Yeah, sure, why not.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The writers have addressed this. 4 years in a settlement softened Joel from the man he used to be and that time changed him. This is evident from Ellie's walk through his house where you see Joel opening up and tinkering with guitars, carving wood statues, and reading books. He's a different person now.

Personally, the only part I didn't like was how brutal and violent his death was. I would have been 100% okay if Abby just killed him quick like we did with her father in Part 1. Since Joel didn't torture and brutalize Abby's father. That's the only thing I'd have changed, I don't mind that he died or that he died so soon.

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I saw someone make a good point about Joel revealing who he was as well, which is that we don't allow characters in entertainment to make mistakes. If a character makes a mistake, then it's the writers not understanding them or they did something out of character. Instead of it just being that they fucked up, which is something that we all do. Troy saw that scene with Joel as him fucking up. And you can tell he immediately realizes he fucked up with how his body language and tone of his voice changes. He let his guard down for a moment and he paid the price.

 

[Tiny Chihuahueño]

I knew he would die, right from the first teaser trailer. Later trailers led me to believe he would play a bigger part than essentially just the first hour of the game, and that kind of pissed me off, moreso when the "twist" was taking control of Abby instead, someone I still don't care about after two playthroughs.

 

[jaymzi]

That entire cutscene from Joel and Tommy walking into that room till the end with Ellie going into full rage mode after Joel died was so good.

 

[Ghost of Jhoto]

He should have died but there way it happened was so stupid and out of character

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Even the most prepared person slips up, no one is on point 100% of the time. I think it shows that a minor mistake can lead to major consequences.

 

[egg]

3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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Meeting Henry for the first time after being attacked by him: Anyway, we got a group out over at the radio tower, you wanna come?
Joel: Yeah, sure, why not.

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I'll do you one better, they don't even mention the radio tower in their first conversation. They (Henry & Sam) just explain that they were attacked and looking for supplies and the conversation ends with Henry saying "I have a hideout, it's better if we talk there". Joel and Ellie go despite just being attacked lol!

So I never understood the whole "Joel would never" aspect when he literally did!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kaiken]

Yeah, I'll echo that I didn't like the idea of them being seasoned to let their guard down. That wasn't like a straggler or two, it was a large group of heavily armed people. Red flags everywhere.

 

[Ashgarth]

Joel death reminded me of the Beauty and the Beast unit from MGS4 of all things.

Narratively it was handled REALLY poorly, happening 30 minutes in and then spending the rest of the game with scenes of "Look at how happy they were! Are you sad now? ARE YOU SAD NOW???"

And let's not forget how he acts completely out of character just so he can be killed without having to invest too much into the scene.

 

[Richter1887]

It was well done. Joel is a bitch and deserved what he got.

They should have put GOW quick time event when playing as Abby to make it even more interactive.

 

[supernormal]

In the moment I was surprised that the feeling I got from it was one of focus and determination. I was absolutely ready to end those people by whatever means. Thinking outside of the game itself, it's really the only way they could up the stakes. That moment really does a good job of putting you in the shoes of all the other people you might have done that same thing to. How many fathers never made it home just because they happened to be in your way in the first game? The only way to explore that was to do something exactly like this. I empathized with Abby even before you got to play as her, and then playing her sold me even more on how brutal and vicious Joel and Ellie were.

 

[Kamek]

It was great storytelling to me. I loved the suddenness of it. It felt "in character" to me for him to be a BIT more trusting and help others - with a kind of softer Joel after meeting Ellie and fucking things up with her.

It was the best kind of story telling - not necessarily what you want - but a great event to drive things forward in a meaningful way. I love Joel as a character - and wish there could have been some resolution between them other than those final glancing moments - but I think it made for a way better, bittersweet story that way. That's why I loved the game, and why I went in completely blind and was FLOORED by the reactions after I beat the game. Had no idea that these things were even controversial.

 

[arcadepc]

I would not mind the story if that that was the final confrontation instead of happening in the beginning and they could as well have separated game in two or even 3 parts with Joel, Ellie and Abby. Had Joel met that fate in the end, no one would have complained and no one would have had issues with Abby.

But the way they handled it shows bad b-movie writing. Also the supposed "Abby's father" in the original did not look like her at all and you could also have the choice to skip killing him. They could have come up with a better revenge motive.

 

[Alienous]

Yeah, I'll echo that I didn't like the idea of them being seasoned to let their guard down. That wasn't like a straggler or two, it was a large group of heavily armed people. Red flags everywhere.

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It was a room of scared, cold, twenty-somethings. Wolverine would've let his guard down - you would be more concerned about appearing as a threat than feeling threatened.

 

[Aldo]

Didn't have an issue with it. In the very first scenes we see him opening up and living in a community, so we already know he's somewhat changed.
Overall, aside from a few plot points that felt a bit forced, it was surprisingly well written and all the drama that arose was just a few immature nerds being vocal on the internet.

 

[TheGhost]

Thought he would die end of game not the start. It took a lot for me to part with $60 knowing he died early on. Would have been pretty pissed if I spent $60 and that happened. Instead i was pissed I only played half the game as Ellie. 🤷‍♂️
That's not even getting into it making no sense the way it went down.

 

[SuzanoSho]

The marketing didn't even have Joel in the first trailer while Ellie was alone playing a song looking anything but optimistic lml. How were people misled?...

I think I missed a lot of the commercials...

EDIT:

They specifically doctored cutscenes in pre-release trailers to show Joel swapped with other alternate timelines of himself or swapped with a completely different character to give the impression he would be there the whole game.

They absolutely were dishonest in the marketing, although it was in the interest of keeping his fate a secret

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Ah, okay. See, and I didn't even TRY to go on a media blackout. I guess I just KNEW he was gonna die. I didn't think the way he died was particularly upsetting either, and would have been okay with either one of them killing the other. I understand he's one of the main characters, but given the setting, karma was bound to catch up to him one way or another. There were times when I honestly figured he would die by the end of the FIRST game lol...

 

[Omnistalgic]

It worked for the story...Joel being more trusting could have been explained a bit, I think playing through his ester story would really helped with that issue that everyone has. The context is there, but for such an important character, yeah maybe ND could have spelled it out.

Overall though, Joel is just gruff and cool and he's older so his perspective of life before and after outbreak is refreshing. I would have liked more adventures with Joel and hope we get DLC.

i liked the game a lot, but the characters aren't as memorable as Joel and Ellie, and Abby is cool, but don't like her as much as the original pair.

 

[Kaiken]

It was a room of scared, cold, twenty-somethings. Wolverine would've let his guard down - you would be more concerned about appearing as a threat than feeling threatened.

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I don't buy it.

 

[HStallion]

I'm still a bit confused by why others think we needed some long elaborate sequence or explanation as to why Joel is now more trusting and relaxed in his decision making and attitude than he was in the first game. Its inherently obvious why this is the case. He's living in what is basically a stable safe haven that does a good job of recreating some semblance of civilization while being surrounded by like minded individuals all working together to survive in some kind of comfort. The exact same could be said of Ellie who is now also far more relaxed after years among a group of survivors that seem like mostly decent people and is able to open up and even start a relationship with Dina. No one questions why Ellie is able to trust and in the process, potentially open herself up for greater hurt but when tough macho man survivor Joel does it? BAD WRITING! I swear I don't get how some people can be so ignorant of the obvious because it wasn't blatantly spelled out for them and mind you I think the game does a great job setting up this change in personality in Joel just from the context of the entire opening segment.

 

[Veelk]

I'll do you one better, they don't even mention the radio tower in their first conversation. They (Henry & Sam) just explain that they were attacked and looking for supplies and the conversation ends with Henry saying "I have a hideout, it's better if we talk there".

So I never understood the whole "Joel would never" aspect when he literally did!!!!!!!!!!

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Oh, it's easy to understand. "I don't want Joel to have died like this, but I can't say that it comes from a place of being emotionally hurt by the story, so let me grasp at stuff I can try to frame around it being bad writing instead of being honest about my hurt feelings."

Look, the Joel situation was set up on a very coherent way - 1. Jackson has become a trading hub, they have travelers passing through all the time, meeting some people on the road isn't that unusual for them. Hell, even without being a trading hub, it's pretty established that there are just regular travelers in this world. Joel and Ellie spent a year being travelers in the last game. It's not THAT usual. 2. They found Abby as she was being attacked by infected. You can't fake that, so they had no reason to believe that Abby was anything but a traveler who was just in trouble - which is what she actually was, just one with a specific goal in mind. 3. They were being attacked by a horde, which meant that even if Joel was telepathic, it's not like he had a choice because the situation was set up that there was only one place to go whether or not he could tell it was a trap. 4. In all honesty, it WASN'T a trap. Abby's crew had no idea that the random traveler Abby brought with them was Joel. If they weren't here to kill Joel, everything would basically proceeded the same up until Abby brought out the shotgun.

The funny thing is there is one genuinely contrived part about this situation - Why was Abby's crew standing around at the gates, gun and molotovs in hand and ready to close the gates for when Abby rolled through? It didn't seem they were just wandering around the front gate for no reason and even if they had been, why would they be doing that? The only way I can see this happening is if Abby had radio'd them ahead, but no radio was ever established, so somehow the WLF crew just knew Abby would be coming from that direction, on horseback, with a horde after them, and they were somehow prepared.

But no one ever brings up that part. Just frustration that Joel "let his guard down" as if there was anything he could do differently. Joel didn't "slip up" because he's not some fucking pre-cog who can instinctively tell whenever someone has bad intentions. He didn't make some grave tactical error - he just happened to get unlucky and help the wrong person. If this situation played out 100 times with different, 99% of the time doing the same actions, he'd have been fine because most people don't just kill people at random, and Tommy offered them to resupply, meaning any hunter or scavenger would get more out of letting them live than killing them. The only times Joel dies in these situations is if he happens to get stuck with psychopaths who kill for literally no reason at any given turn....or hte person in question wants to kill him more than they want anything else.

 

[SecondNature]

IMO, it just happened too fast and I couldnt stand the coincidences surrounding Ellie finding him.

I wanted more of Joel. I get why they did it. I just liked Joel, more than Ellie in fact.

I also think a more fitting end for Joel would be something more psychological/neurological. I wanted to see Joel get frail and lose his mind. Just because he has such a traumatic past, and I wanted that all to catch up to him and show us that he was not immune to it all. It would give the insane shit he's done and seen more weight if he went out like that.

I also feel the story was too complicated with WAY too many loose ends/coincidences in general.

 

[IIFloodyII]

I don't have a problem with it (makes sense, he wasn't exactly subtle with the well trained, well connected paramilitary organisation he ran through), makes me sad and upset, even angry as any great character death should, but makes sense and they weren't going to play it safe and kill someone you don't actually care much about.

I do think it's was too brutal though, mostly the basically forcing Ellie to watch, they obviously don't know the relationship, but her reaction is a enough for them to figure it's a very close one and they could have easily knocked her out like Tommy, it made Abby damn near irredeemable and most of her friends never where due to it, Abby eventually won me over, but it very negatively impacted the first few hours after the switch.

 

[zero71]

I was gutted. Joel was my favourite character. When I played through the first game my kids were still very young and I just kinda identified with Joel who was clearly seeing Ellie more and more like a daughter.

To watch him die and then later have to play half the game as someone other than Ellie was tough, I almost turned the game off at the 50% mark. I've only just got back to controlling Ellie for the final section of the game now (I'm playing through on PS5 right now for first time).

 

[Sparks]

Fuck. I have no idea.

It is truly the FIRST game to make me feel that emotion, never thought it'd be possible. It's hard to tell if it is a CHEAPASS way to get you invested or an absolutely brilliant way to get you invested.

I think if I was the only one with that emotion and the characters were more casual about it, I'd have a bigger problem with it, but the emotions of the characters echoed mine in a way, so it felt more warranted. It's why I consider this game a masterpiece in interactive story telling, bringing those types of emotions into a game is pretty insane.

With that said though, it only works for this Game Series and this type of game. If any other developers try to parrot that emotion, they will fail hard. It's a world that is founded in violence about violence, so the main character receiving a violent sudden end fits the universe. If BOTW2 begins with Link getting brutally murdered, while I may enjoy that, it would not fit it.

 

[GattsuSama]

I thought Joel, his death and Abby were done perfectly. It is Ellie I had issue with, she is the one that in my book went to far, too insane, beyond redemption in evert possible way.

I loved TLOU2, top 3 this year for sure, but I don't really want a TLOU3 or one that focuses on Ellie.

 

[FooF]

the Flashbacks with Joel were the best part of the game for me because that's exactly what is was looking for coming into part 2 I would have rather played a game full of that where Joel died in the middle or 3/4 of the way in over what we got.

 

[KillLaCam]

Even the most prepared person slips up, no one is on point 100% of the time. I think it shows that a minor mistake can lead to major consequences.

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Didn't really think about it that way. Thats a good way to look at it.

Idk if that was the intention of ND though.

 

[Seesaw15]

3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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This type of characterization critique only makes sense if you just read spoilers and never played the game.

Plus its a dumb criticism in the context of the narrative because The WLF weren't even coming to Jackson to look for Joel specifically. They came to look for Tommy. Tommy was already a very public figure in Jackson. Was he supposed to change his name when Joel and Ellie came to live there? Tommy was an ambassador for the town and did what he did with Abby ( introduce himself) often to establish connections with travelers.

Plus folks act like Tommy and Joel had time to get their bearings. It went from running from hoard, 2 seconds of small talk and Abby shooting Joel with a shot gun.

 

[g-m1n1]

I mean, why the fuck that doctor wanted to "kill" Ellie?... Why anyone would want to kill the only cure for the pandemic? lol.

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It was explained in the first game: they need a tissue in her spinal chord (or whatever). No way to extract and analyzing it without killing her.

Killing one person for a vaccine is the "right" thing to do In that situation.

 

[Nazgûl]

I did not want him to die. I try to like Abby, but I just can't

 

[PucePikmin]

Every gameplay video had Ellie or Abby. People assumed Joel would be a companion.

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They specifically switched characters out for trailers to make it look like Joel was in more of the game. Abby was *not* heavily featured in early PR. Yes, we knew Ellie would be the main character and Joel would be the companion this time around, but I think most assumed he'd be in more than 5 to 10 percent of the game.

I think you're confusing the narrative post-spoilers with what Naughty Dog actually showed us officially.

 

[grady]

I got spoiled on his death before playing the game, but still felt due to how early it was the impact was a little muted. But that really might be all down to the fact I was expecting it, would have probably been a mild shock otherwise.

 

[closer]

Voted "other"

I wouldnt say i disliked the way his death happened more than it didnt fit my interpretation of the 1st game much; kinda me injecting my own thoughts about the game into my experience and feeling a little let down. Don't need to get into the specifics, but yeah, the idea that joel received kind of a "martyr'd" death didnt sit right with me; it didnt make sense for me in the context of the game and i didnt like that they inserted this reconciliation momwnt between him and ellie near the end of the game to justify her response.

But that's all just like personal story gripes, i thought they told and executed their story pretty well

Ok fuck it i thought ellie would kill joel after tlou1, and i thought tlou2 would frame joel's decision as sort of a "you live in this world, you make the types of decisions that ensure you survive in this world" type deed, but that ellie would be exceptional and not follow w/e cyclical brutal cynicism ndog was prescribing with this world, but nah, another one.

 

[pants]

I understand people being upset over a number of things, like they really enjoyed Joel as a character a lot and wanted him to live. Or they felt that his death should've been placed later in the game (and possibly remove the Abby sections almost completely from the game?) as to not make us sympathize as much with Abby?

His death was the catalyst for every event of the game. The game is still so much about him, so his death being early made sense. Funny enough, he pretty much got to die a second time at the very end.

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Great answer — Joel is still one of the main characters of TLoU 2, even in his absence. He's basically the 3rd most important/prominent character.

 

[Van Bur3n]

I think that kind of plays into my first point. There should've been more character development explaining how he became so trusting over the years imo.

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After a whole first game of him letting his guard down to someone he grows to care for and the fact that he was long part of the Jackson community, an actual community he was seemingly happy to be a part of compared to Boston, I think there is enough implication there to indicate why he was so trusting. Dude had no reason to believe there is some small group of Fireflies left that are hunting for him after all of those years so he has to keep his name a secret. If anything, being reserved for those reasons makes less sense than a character making a simple slip up that costed him his life. Characters are allowed to make mistakes.

 

[Chumunga64]

it's a post apocalyptic series, characters dying should be the least shocking things ever

the only big problem I have is Ellie not killing Abby only because she tortured people to death before. Like, if she just killed Abby's pals, I would be fine but the torture feels over the top.

the last time I laughed at the moral dissonance in a naughtydog game is when the over the top villain in uncharted 2 ranted about Drake killing men and that was purposeful to show the villain not having a point

 

[SecondNature]

This type of characterization critique only makes sense if you just read spoilers and never played the game.

Plus its a dumb criticism in the context of the narrative because The WLF weren't even coming to Jackson to look for Joel specifically. They came to look for Tommy. Tommy was already a very public figure in Jackson. Was he supposed to change his name when Joel and Ellie came to live there? Tommy was an ambassador for the town and did what he did with Abby ( introduce himself) often to establish connections with travelers.

Plus folks act like Tommy and Joel had time to get their bearings. It went from running from hoard, 2 seconds of small talk and Abby shooting Joel with a shot gun.

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Joel killed a shit ton of Fireflies. Wouldnt it make sense to assume he would have no reason to share his name so willingly with strangers? I'm not so bothered by Joel letting his guard down or whatever anymore, I just think the entire scene was built to look suspicious, and it felt off that Joel was not cluing in. Joel doesnt know these people, yet they are on the outskirts of their town, and I just feel that would be enough to be a little more cautious.

 

[IIFloodyII]

the Flashbacks with Joel were the best part of the game for me because that's exactly what is was looking for coming into part 2 I would have rather played a game full of that where Joel died in the middle or 3/4 of the way in over what we got.

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The reason those flashback are so good is because it's after we know the faith of Joel, the birthday/museum is the most obvious 1, it's their last real loving moment, it hits you like a ton of bricks, because it's what we want, probably what Ellie wants, but we never will get that again. It's so bittersweet and probably my favorite moment all gen, first time a game made me just straight up cry, it happening before we see Joel's death would just make it pretty nice, but not much more.

 

[pswii60]

2.) I felt misled by the marketing, which was intentionally engineered to make it seem like Joel would live throughout the game

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It's not like his unfortunate end was the last we saw of Joel in the game, far from it.

 

[Coi]

It was explained in the first game: they need a tissue in her spinal chord (or whatever). No way to extract and analyzing it without killing her.

Killing one person for a vaccine is the "right" thing to do In that situation.

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Sure, tell that to Joel haha (jk)
Anyways, I think it's a better idea to have more or wait for more potential people with the cure than killing the only one. That's a weak point in TLoU and they made the whole second game around that...

 

[Lemony1984]

Overall I loved the game and don't have any major complaints.

I will say Joel's death didn't affect me that much, probably because it happens so early? But I didn't have any problem with it, really. And there are plenty of good Joel moments in the game after that too.

 

[SecondNature]

it's a post apocalyptic series, characters dying should be the least shocking things ever

the only big problem I have is Ellie not killing Abby only because she tortured people to death before. Like, if she just killed Abby's pals, I would be fine but the torture feels over the top.

the last time I laughed at the moral dissonance in a naughtydog game is when the over the top villain in uncharted 2 ranted about Drake killing men and that was purposeful to show the villain not having a point

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I also dislike Ellie's choice a lot too. to me, it's completely frustrating because the game takes you on an absolutely ridiculous final chapter where Ellie forces her way past an all new enemy, only to find abby and just let it all go. I have had the ending explained to me before on Era, but I still dont really find it sits well with me because I found the entire ending to be too over the top ridiculous. Even for a game like this where the characters kill so many people. Once again, that entire final chapter is set up through coincidences.

Personally Im ready to move on from Ellie and I'd hope a new LOU game focuses on a fresher story and characters. But ultimately, Id like ND to move on to a new IP