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Deleted member 10747

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,259
User Banned (3 Days): Inflammatory commentary; implying sex workers are predatory
Yup. The Bella Throne Onlyfans thread had some pretty terrible posts and a users saying all the stuff on there is trash, and even ask me to name performers making good content (probably so they could go 'research' them).
Were they only talking about the content? Personally i find "Onlyfans" content to be a bit troublesome. Never heard of it before the Bella Throne thread and after researching, yes actually finding out what it is. I found lots of content providers to be kind of predatory on the lonely/insecure. From rating your dick to acting to being your girlfriend. U don't just buy porn but a fantasy to look away from reality.

I definetly agree with you OP. Also don't forget people, some also love to do it because it's fun.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It especially bothers me when people post about/encouraging pirating off of sex workers. They deserve to be compensated for their work just like any other profession.
Talk about pirating decades old ROMs from multi billion dollar corporations? Ban

Talk about pirating content from marginalized sex workers and promoting a site that platforms revenge porn, rape, etc? No ban
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
Every time there's discussion about sex workers you get people making jokes about them, or acting weirded out or grossed out.

Sex workers are no different from you or me, they sell their labor for income and don't deserve any less respect than cashiers or executives or actors. They certainly aren't expendable people you can just put in a box and not think about. You might know a sex worker and not realize it! Many of them are also BIPOC or working class as well. Recognize that they are humans who work jobs even if it's not a job you'd ever do, and they aren't going away no matter how gross or unethical you think their work is.

This stigma has to stop.
dhMeAzK.gif


Also there's a lot of different people we need to change up the way we talk about (but that's for another thread).
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
All paid labor under capitalism is nonconsensual by that definition. Someone who set up an OnlyFans account and asked for money in exchange for their service did so knowing what they would be doing. An actress signing onto an audition or interview did not do so planning to have sex for money.

Not that there isn't lots of sexual abuse in these industries, but that's a separate subject from whether all sex work is nonconsensual.


I don't think this is a completely fair comparison since we know the way sexual stuff affects someone psychologically is different than the effects of working at a fast food restaurant for example.
Not all labor is the same. Sure, all industries have their own problems (that we have to solve) but we know the sex industry can be specially damaging to someone in our society (maybe because of the stigmas we are discussing here that we have to erase?).

Feel free to correct me, I'm more than willing to learn about this subject.
 

Excuse me

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,020
Agree. 100% for decriminalization.
Yes and no. I mean there should be some sort of regulation around it. I watched docu about Germany and i'ts mega brothels and it was fucking brutal. Women often from eastern European countries came to Germany to work at brothels because no options at home. But the pay was god awful because there is so much supply that most can't make shit. We were speaking about couple of hundred euros for 24/h. And from that you had pay for the brothel for the room and "stage". Capitalism has it's dirty tentacles in sex work as well and it can be horrendous.

But I do agree that sex workers shouldn't be stigmatized in any way.
 
OP
OP
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
I don't think this is a completely fair comparison since we know the way sexual stuff affects someone psychologically is different than the effects of working at a fast food restaurant for example.
Not all labor is the same. Sure, all industries have their own problems (that we have to solve) but we know the sex industry can be specially damaging to someone in our society (maybe because of the stigmas we are discussing here that we have to erase?).

Feel free to correct me, I'm more than willing to learn about this subject.

You'd be better off talking to actual sex workers about this (or at least reading what they have to say), because it's clear you haven't. The hyperfocus on sex work and its issue of labor and consent as it pertains to the ills of capitalism is a result of a stigma against sex work, not a concern about how laborers function under capitalism.

I'll start you off with this:


Were they only talking about the content? Personally i find "Onlyfans" content to be a bit troublesome. Never heard of it before the Bella Throne thread and after researching, yes actually finding out what it is. I found lots of content providers to be kind of predatory on the lonely/insecure. From rating your dick to acting to being your girlfriend. U don't just buy porn but a fantasy to look away from reality.

What two consenting adults do between themselves is nobody's business but their own.
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,490
As long as it's all above board and nobody is being forced into it sex work should be celebrated as a service. It gives people an avenue to completely no string sex to anyone who wants it. The problem with sex work now is as either buying or selling it is criminalised in a lot of countries and it's lead to everything being pushed further and further underground and without regulation people like human trafficers stepped in to fill the void and are forcing people into it that don't want to have any part of this and that's the scary thing.

I really hope that someday it can be opened up as a healthy, legal and safe way for both people partaking in can enjoy.
 

hodayathink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,055
I agree with this thread. Sex work is work, and people need to get better at treating it as such without all the moralizing and occasional infantilizing that goes on.
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,109
Watching sex workers at their craft was part of my development as a young teen.... probably yours as well.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I don't think this is a completely fair comparison since we know the way sexual stuff affects someone psychologically is different than the effects of working at a fast food restaurant for example.
Not all labor is the same. Sure, all industries have their own problems (that we have to solve) but we know the sex industry can be specially damaging to someone in our society (maybe because of the stigmas we are discussing here that we have to erase?).

Feel free to correct me, I'm more than willing to learn about this subject.
Well yeah when society heavily stigmatizes you, treats you like shit, and doesn't support you when something bad happens to you or someone harms you, the general result is that the person being stigmatized, marginalized, and ignored has negative consequences on the person being treated that way. The labor itself is labor, the issue is the stigma and lack of support/protection/a voice in society.
 

Excuse me

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,020
As long as it's all above board and nobody is being forced into it sex work should be celebrated as a service. It gives people an avenue to completely no string sex to anyone who wants it. The problem with sex work now is as either buying or selling it is criminalised in a lot of countries and it's lead to everything being pushed further and further underground and without regulation people like human trafficers stepped in to fill the void and are forcing people into it that don't want to have any part of this and that's the scary thing.

I really hope that someday it can be opened up as a healthy, legal and safe way for both people partaking in can enjoy.
I also think there needs to be a discussion about rights of sex workers. I mean do the poorest people in society really choose the profession? If we talk how working at Amazon warehouse is soul eating, and physically/mentally draining and pays next to nothing. Sex work can be that too, not to mention extremely dangerous. And there is the problem of minimum wage for sex work, since no matter what the minimum wage would be there would be parties (traffickers) who would always supply cheaper services.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,316
Pencils Vania
Couldn't agree more. I think our kinds of communities have some serious problems with how they view women in sex work fields. A lot of dehumanizing attitudes.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I also think there needs to be a discussion about rights of sex workers. I mean do the poorest people in society really choose the profession? If we talk how working at Amazon warehouse is soul eating, and physically/mentally draining and pays next to nothing. Sex work can be that too, not to mention extremely dangerous. And there is the problem of minimum wage for sex work, since no matter what the minimum wage would be there would be parties (traffickers) who would always supply cheaper services.
Yes capitalism is an inherently exploitative system and needs to be dismantled. Sex work can be dangerous because society allows it to be so, just as society allows working in an Amazon warehouse to be dangerous. We should invest resources into making labor not dangerous and exploitative and change policies that allow for exploitation to occur
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,215
Tampa, Fl
I guess this is as good a thread as any to ask a question I've been wondering about.

Obviously #metoo has shed a lot of light on power and consent dynamics, but I have a hard time squaring that circle with considering things like OnlyFans ethical. I don't judge the performers themselves, but the industry as a whole seems kind of ethically dubious to me when it comes to power/consent.

As people in this thread said, many people have to resort to OnlyFans out of poverty and desperation, IE stripping/camming/doing porn for money at the request of wealthy men because they have no other way to pay the bills. How is this different than a young actress coerced into sleeping with a producer for a big role? Or a boss/teacher enticing their student for sex in exchange for better grades? Can someone really consent to sex/sex displays if they are broke and the patron has all the money and power?

I guess I have a hard time seeing a difference between "rich producer offers broke, desperate young actress a role in exchange for sex" with "rich OnlyFans patron offers broke, desperate young performer $50 to masturbate on camera."
Or you know. Adult performer offers services they are comfortable with and give consent to do for $50.

Not all sex workers do what they do out of desperation. And that's one of the thoughts that needs to stop right now.
 

Woylie

Member
May 9, 2018
1,849
It's a bit patronizing toward sex workers to imply that they're all just doing it "to survive" - while there are definitely people out there forced into survival sex work (especially young LGBTQ+ people), people get into sex work for the same reasons as any other job, sometimes it's the best option for them, or sometimes camming, domming, acting in porn etc may just be something that they enjoy or feel comfortable with doing that can bring in some money to either be their full income or to complement whatever their day job is.

Like, I'm glad that there are people here telling others not to shame sex workers, but it's naive, condescending, and a bit slut-shaming to say that they're all just doing sex work out of survival-based necessity any more than the reasons that someone may be doing any other job.
 

blodtann

Member
Jun 7, 2018
519
Should be legalized so people in that profession can operate a legal business. I think it's particularly bad in the US where sunbathing topless gets you thrown in jail.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It's a bit patronizing toward sex workers to imply that they're all just doing it "to survive" - while there are definitely people out there forced into survival sex work (especially young LGBTQ+ people), people get into sex work for the same reasons as any other job, sometimes it's the best option for them, or sometimes camming, domming, acting in porn etc may just be something that they enjoy or feel comfortable with doing that can bring in some money to either be their full income or to complement whatever their day job is.

Like, I'm glad that there are people here telling others not to shame sex workers, but it's naive, condescending, and a bit slut-shaming to say that they're all just doing sex work out of survival-based necessity any more than the reasons that someone may be doing any other job.
100% this, there are tons of sex workers with advanced degrees, or who used to work in other professions, who do it because they generally enjoy the work or the pay eclipses their previous job or it works better for them due to a disability, etc. Also a lot of people who do it on the side for extra money and their own enjoyment.

If people actually listened to sex workers and what they say about their own labor then they would know this, but their voices are not valued in our society.
 

Jeffolation

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,117
It's a job, and like my job it's a time and labour operation, just one that society has made more dangerous to do and with social stigmas attached to it. Decriminalize the elements that are illegal and let's get on with normalizing the whole works of it.

Sex workers get the biggest tips.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,567
Talk about pirating decades old ROMs from multi billion dollar corporations? Ban

Talk about pirating content from marginalized sex workers and promoting a site that platforms revenge porn, rape, etc? No ban

Yup. The latter has always baffled me. I hope we start banning people who question or remark about why people pay for porn.
 
OP
OP
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
It's a bit patronizing toward sex workers to imply that they're all just doing it "to survive" - while there are definitely people out there forced into survival sex work (especially young LGBTQ+ people), people get into sex work for the same reasons as any other job, sometimes it's the best option for them, or sometimes camming, domming, acting in porn etc may just be something that they enjoy or feel comfortable with doing that can bring in some money to either be their full income or to complement whatever their day job is.

Like, I'm glad that there are people here telling others not to shame sex workers, but it's naive, condescending, and a bit slut-shaming to say that they're all just doing sex work out of survival-based necessity any more than the reasons that someone may be doing any other job.

Yes, that's what I was trying to tap into in the OP saying they are no different from any other job, but I probably should have been more clear. There is an obsession with "saving" sex workers that is grotesque. Nobody talks about how they need to save Amazon warehouse workers or fast food cashiers from their stressful and strenuous jobs out of concern for their well being or whatever.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Yes, that's what I was trying to tap into in the OP saying they are no different from any other job, but I probably should have been more clear. There is an obsession with "saving" sex workers that is grotesque. Nobody talks about how they need to save Amazon warehouse workers or fast food cashiers from their stressful and strenuous jobs out of concern for their well being or whatever.
Tbf as a society we do need to 'save' people from exploitative conditions, but instead of advocating for policy changes that make labor safer and give workers more control over and profit from their labor, for some reason with sex work the conversation is always around...eliminating sex work or just continuing to stigmatize it. You know, the main causes of harm to sex workers.
 
OP
OP
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
Tbf as a society we do need to 'save' people from exploitative conditions, but instead of advocating for policy changes that make labor safer and give workers more control over and profit from their labor, for some reason with sex work the conversation is always around...eliminating sex work or just continuing to stigmatize it. You know, the main causes of harm to sex workers.

Right, but few people talk about sex workers this way because they're very concerned about exploited labor under capitalism, they do it because there is a stigma against sex work and they can't imagine people choosing and enjoying sex work the same way lots of people choose and enjoy their jobs, or that sex work could just be a typical job that someone does. (You know my political stance on capitalism very well, so no arguments there.)
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,362
I guess this is as good a thread as any to ask a question I've been wondering about.

Obviously #metoo has shed a lot of light on power and consent dynamics, but I have a hard time squaring that circle with considering things like OnlyFans ethical. I don't judge the performers themselves, but the industry as a whole seems kind of ethically dubious to me when it comes to power/consent.

As people in this thread said, many people have to resort to OnlyFans out of poverty and desperation, IE stripping/camming/doing porn for money at the request of wealthy men because they have no other way to pay the bills. How is this different than a young actress coerced into sleeping with a producer for a big role? Or a boss/teacher enticing their student for sex in exchange for better grades? Can someone really consent to sex/sex displays if they are broke and the patron has all the money and power?

I guess I have a hard time seeing a difference between "rich producer offers broke, desperate young actress a role in exchange for sex" with "rich OnlyFans patron offers broke, desperate young performer $50 to masturbate on camera."

I'd say that there are plenty of sex workers who have agency and autonomy and arent neccisarily choosing sex work out of desperation.

Also, Poor people being exploited by wealthy isnt exclusive to sex work... see pretty much any "low skilled labor" job. That said, one of my childhood friends made more in one night stripping than most American's make in a month. She wasn't desperate, she found it to be a fun way to pad investment and vacation funds.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
You'd be better off talking to actual sex workers about this (or at least reading what they have to say), because it's clear you haven't. The hyperfocus on sex work and its issue of labor and consent as it pertains to the ills of capitalism is a result of a stigma against sex work, not a concern about how laborers function under capitalism.

I'll start you off with this:




What two consenting adults do between themselves is nobody's business but their own.

I really don't understand what in my post lead you to answer in such an aggressive way but whatever. I have read and talked with Sex Workers, just in a very different context of "Only Fans" (mainly prostitution).

I'm from Europe and we have shown that the legalization and regulation of prostitution doesn't really solve some of it's most dramatic issues, like the mental toll it takes on people and the abuse of employees (however you want to define this). Again, the "you are poor and have to sell your body to survive" is VERY different psychologically than "you are poor and you have to work in a warehouse for amazon under pressure", even when the stigma against sex workers is reduced substantially.

The article you linked mostly interviews people that choose that career path and need more protections for the most part. My point is about EVERYONE ELSE that is "forced" into that industry.

TIME itself links the website: Prostitution Research & Education (prostitutionresearch.com)


So sure, like I said, stigma is a real problem, but it seems naïve to me to assume that if we just normalized the fact sex workers are real workers everything would be okay (when Europe has shown that's not true).



Again, feel free to link me more articles to debate the point I'm making. Just don't be aggressive or I won't answer.
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,379
Part of the problem is that, frankly, even the countries that are friendliest to sex workers are ultimately rife with exploitation. When it comes to the perceived value of sex work, the gap between what providers believe and what consumers believe is very, very wide, and those services are so "fundamental" that I don't think they're really subject to market forces in the way other "luxuries" are.

So while I'd love to see a world where all sex work is consensual, destigmatized, and ethical, I don't think it's possible to really build that world. There will always be huge demand for sex work, and that's a demand that cannot be met by people choosing to become sex workers and offering fair prices for their labor. It will be met either be people being exploited under an unfair capitalist system, or by human trafficking.

Ultimately I agree that it should be destigmatized, and that the women involved should be treated with the utmost respect - that's always something I try to do. But I have trouble with the "sex work is just another job" argument, because that requires you to blind yourself to the fact that a vast, vast majority of it, globally and historically, is exploitative and/or non-consensual
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
I'm right there with you OP. I know it's of little consequence but this forum seems to deal with the topic far better than others, and especially better than Twitter / et al.
 
OP
OP
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
I'm from Europe and we have shown that the legalization and regulation of prostitution doesn't really solve some of it's most dramatic issues, like the mental toll it takes on people and the abuse of employees (however you want to define this). Again, the "you are poor and have to sell your body to survive" is VERY different psychologically than "you are poor and you have to work in a warehouse for amazon under pressure", even when the stigma against sex workers is reduced substantially.

...do you think people who are poor and selling their labor in a warehouse are not selling their body to survive?

Are actors who do sex scenes in a movie selling their body to survive?

If your argument is nobody should be forced to sell their labor to survive, then I agree, let's end capitalism. Until then sex work should be treated the same as any other job where labor is sold.

Part of the problem is that, frankly, even the countries that are friendliest to sex workers are ultimately rife with exploitation. When it comes to the perceived value of sex work, the gap between what providers believe and what consumers believe is very, very wide, and those services are so "fundamental" that I don't think they're really subject to market forces in the way other "luxuries" are.

So while I'd love to see a world where all sex work is consensual, destigmatized, and ethical, I don't think it's possible to really build that world. There will always be huge demand for sex work, and that's a demand that cannot be met by people choosing to become sex workers and offering fair prices for their labor. It will be met either be people being exploited under an unfair capitalist system, or by human trafficking.

Ultimately I agree that it should be destigmatized, and that the women involved should be treated with the utmost respect - that's always something I try to do. But I have trouble with the "sex work is just another job" argument, because that requires you to blind yourself to the fact that a vast, vast majority of it, globally and historically, is exploitative and/or non-consensual

Great, then I hope you're prepared to fight for the abolishment of capitalism if you're opposed to exploitative and non-consensual labor.


Yeah, guess how many Marxists are in this thread lol.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Yes, that's what I was trying to tap into in the OP saying they are no different from any other job, but I probably should have been more clear. There is an obsession with "saving" sex workers that is grotesque. Nobody talks about how they need to save Amazon warehouse workers or fast food cashiers from their stressful and strenuous jobs out of concern for their well being or whatever.
Well, Marxists do.

I'm from Europe and we have shown that the legalization and regulation of prostitution doesn't really solve some of it's most dramatic issues, like the mental toll it takes on people and the abuse of employees (however you want to define this). Again, the "you are poor and have to sell your body to survive" is VERY different psychologically than "you are poor and you have to work in a warehouse for amazon under pressure", even when the stigma against sex workers is reduced substantially.
These issues are best handled outside of the black market regardless and any further ostracization of sex work by the law/society just compounds its toll. Like having access to banking for example.
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,379
Great, then I hope you're prepared to fight for the abolishment of capitalism if you're opposed to exploitative and non-consensual labor.

Of course. But here's the problem - in a socialist system where ultimately people own the product of their labor, or even a "welfare state" where people don't need to "make a living" to survive, most things can still get done. Most demands can be met. Food, clothing, and shelter can be distributed equitably. Art and music can be produced freely. As things become more and more automated I think that's an incredibly realistic vision for the world.

But even in that sort of utopia, freed from the shackles of economic inequity, there will still be demand for sex work beyond what can be provided ethically. And that demand will always lead to abuse. I don't think that imbalance can be fixed, and there's evidence that it's a problem unique to that industry, regardless of any legal or economic system.
 

Delphine

Fen'Harel Enansal
Administrator
Mar 30, 2018
3,658
France
Agreeing with OP.
Your feminism isn't inclusive nor intersectional if it doesn't include Sex Workers, I want nothing to do with SWERFs, and people belittling SW.

Examining your unconscious biases is harder than Dark Souls.


Thoroughly enjoying this sentence, damn, you snapped.
 
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OP
OP
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
Of course. But here's the problem - in a socialist system where ultimately people own the product of their labor, or even a "welfare state" where people don't need to "make a living" to survive, most things can still get done. Most demands can be met. Food, clothing, and shelter can be distributed equitably. Art and music can be produced freely. As things become more and more automated I think that's an incredibly realistic vision for the world.

But even in that sort of utopia, freed from the shackles of economic inequity, there will still be demand for sex work beyond what can be provided ethically. And that demand will always lead to abuse. I don't think that imbalance can be fixed, and there's evidence that it's a problem unique to that industry, regardless of any legal or economic system.

If sex workers aren't forced to sell their labor to survive then they can start and stop anytime they wish. That's all it boils down to.

Like I could do a whole deep dive into the theoreticals of sex work in a socialist society, but I didn't want this thread to be about that really, despite being a socialist myself. I just want people to not act like sex workers are this weird class of humans that don't exist other than to mock, make jokes about, or act like they're either sluts or poor exploited victims who need to be saved any more than other workers of society.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Right, but few people talk about sex workers this way because they're very concerned about exploited labor under capitalism, they do it because there is a stigma against sex work and they can't imagine people choosing and enjoying sex work the same way lots of people choose and enjoy their jobs, or that sex work could just be a typical job that someone does. (You know my political stance on capitalism very well, so no arguments there.)
Yup, it's a very puritanical mindset
 

Patsy

Member
Jun 7, 2019
1,279
Germany
Thank you. <3

right, which slowly turns this website into an echo chamber for views of the majority users.

I sure could say something that would get me banned for hostility, but instead I'll just say that a forum where people get banned for misogyny, slut shaming, transphobia & homophobia, racism, islamophobia & ableism is the only forum I'd be comfortable enough to browse & take part in. Era just barely makes the cut lately. I fucking wish it'd be the echo chamber some people claim it is. Hell, it'd be better if it'd be an "echo chamber" when it comes to social issues.
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
It's a bit patronizing toward sex workers to imply that they're all just doing it "to survive" - while there are definitely people out there forced into survival sex work (especially young LGBTQ+ people), people get into sex work for the same reasons as any other job, sometimes it's the best option for them, or sometimes camming, domming, acting in porn etc may just be something that they enjoy or feel comfortable with doing that can bring in some money to either be their full income or to complement whatever their day job is.

Like, I'm glad that there are people here telling others not to shame sex workers, but it's naive, condescending, and a bit slut-shaming to say that they're all just doing sex work out of survival-based necessity any more than the reasons that someone may be doing any other job.

I don't disagree with this post - but it also depends how you understand 'labor' and 'work' under capitalism. For the vast majority of the global population work is means of survival. I would eg describe house work similarly because of how I view labor (paid OR unpaid social reproduction) - once it is labor it is about relations of production and exploitation. So, the question really is what happens when we view sex work (or house work) as work - the implications are important. I see sex work as reproductive labor, but to quote Silvia Federici a prostitute is a person who does sexual work, but for money. Also the criminalizing aspect is not unimportant to stigmatization- even though there is some sex work falling outside if that.
 
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jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,379
If sex workers aren't forced to sell their labor to survive then they can start and stop anytime they wish. That's all it boils down to.

Like I could do a whole deep dive into the theoreticals of sex work in a socialist society, but I didn't want this thread to be about that really, despite being a socialist myself. I just want people to not act like sex workers are this weird class of humans that don't exist other than to mock, make jokes about, or act like they're either sluts or poor exploited victims who need to be saved any more than other workers of society.

And what I'm getting at is, I don't think that is or ever will be the case - that a majority of sex workers will never be able to start and stop as they wish, because it's not market forces that are forcing them into that situation, it's the reality of sex work, as a constant in human history.

But I totally agree with all that. "Invisible people" - sex workers, the homeless, the incarcerated, the mentally ill - are one of my big concerns, so I just sort of glossed over all that mentally as "no duh" stuff even if it's unfortunately not for a lot of people. I just find a lot of advocates for sex workers, in my view, overcorrect in their language that sex work is "just like any other work," when I don't feel that's the case - that's the angle I'm coming from. Don't mean to distract from the PSA, which I do think is important.
 
OP
OP
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
And what I'm getting at is, I don't think that is or ever will be the case - that a majority of sex workers will never be able to start and stop as they wish, because it's not market forces that are forcing them into that situation, it's the reality of sex work, as a constant in human history.

In a world where poverty doesn't exist, why would someone keep doing sex work if they felt they were being exploited and abused?
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Part of the problem is that, frankly, even the countries that are friendliest to sex workers are ultimately rife with exploitation. When it comes to the perceived value of sex work, the gap between what providers believe and what consumers believe is very, very wide, and those services are so "fundamental" that I don't think they're really subject to market forces in the way other "luxuries" are.

So while I'd love to see a world where all sex work is consensual, destigmatized, and ethical, I don't think it's possible to really build that world. There will always be huge demand for sex work, and that's a demand that cannot be met by people choosing to become sex workers and offering fair prices for their labor. It will be met either be people being exploited under an unfair capitalist system, or by human trafficking.

Ultimately I agree that it should be destigmatized, and that the women involved should be treated with the utmost respect - that's always something I try to do. But I have trouble with the "sex work is just another job" argument, because that requires you to blind yourself to the fact that a vast, vast majority of it, globally and historically, is exploitative and/or non-consensual
Again, capitalism is an inherently exploitative system. Would you call cleaning and agricultural work "just another job"? Because the largest portion of human trafficking is for those forms of labor, not sex work. I don't understand why you would single out sex work in this defeatist rhetoric and then say "it's not like other forms of work" even though it is.