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Notaskwid

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,652
Osaka
User banned (1 week) dismissing concerns on racism
If you don't think it is a big problem why post here?
Only posts of people that see a big problem are allowed? It is becoming kind of a problem, after people stirred up the beehive though, but the original fan drawing was completely harmless imo
Therefore a storm in a teacup was made.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Was this posted already?

Note that they made this one first:


And THEN after the controversy made the light-skinned one because they were "kind of upset"".


Edit: I don't have context for that "merryweather" thing, are they talking about another artist that got attacked for getting the skin tone wrong?
 
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Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,229
Only posts of people that see a big problem are allowed? It is becoming kind of a problem, after people stirred up the beehive though, but the original fan drawing was completely harmless imo
Therefore a storm in a teacup was made.
Are you going to attempt to join the discussion by elaborating?
At the moment you're coming in at comment #600 just to dismiss the topic with a one-liner.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,706
Eastern artists are actually intentionally doing this now, gimme a break



There's some irony to calling people "Western idiots" and "SJWs" when this person has about as much shame as you'd expect on their public profile.
It quickly goes into anti-sjw, transphobic junk then detours into Amy Rose (from Sonic) hentai, Machamp giving a young boy anal and who knows what else proudly shared with the world.

Funnily enough, he definitely reads this thread, since he made a youtube video on his channel about ResetERA Catherine "nontroversy". Hi Dimitri.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Is this... "being racist to own the libs"?

Gimme a break indeed. What a bunch of asshats.
I dunno if it's "to own the libs" since several of these arts are mentionning avenging the same "merryweather" person group. So it might be more misplaced "personnal" pettiness than a conscious political movement.
Did that group person receive abuse over their comic or something? My twitter doesn't show negative comments on the top and I'm too lazy to scroll down...




From this:
D9DnUodXYAAQ7Sc.jpg
To this:
Edit: apparently there's also the double layer of the scottish accent joke being inaccurate. Saw a lot of comments about that.
EDIT2: apparently "merryweather" is not a person, but a group. So individuals in that group might not think the same way, as shown in the tweet in massoluk's post
 
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NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,322
I dunno if it's "to own the libs" since several of these arts are mentionning avenging the same "merryweather" person. So it might be more misplaced "personnal" pettiness than an organised political movement.
Did that person receive abuse or something? My twitter doesn't show negative comments on the top so I don't know.
Like I said revenge racism
That is still racism
Also

The artist themself asked to people to get along so those people are just using this as an excuse
 

Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,500


This is why people have a problem when individual fanartists' implicit biases impact their work.
This person genuinely thought Nessa had a lighter skin tone because the art of those they follow depicted her as such.
They added the better look afterwards (seen above).

Again, individual fanart on its own would not be a problem.
But because it's a problem that isn't limited to individuals, it can and has had negative effects.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225


This is why people have a problem when individual fanartists' implicit biases impact their work.
This person genuinely thought Nessa had a lighter skin tone because the art of those they follow depicted her as such.
They added the better look afterwards (seen above).

OK, I find it strange that the artist didn't take from the source material and instead used other fan art as a reference.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Like I said revenge racism
That is still racism
Yep, and it's damaging on the long term since it will continue to get shared in various circles later on.

But if we want them to stop, there must be a mutual understanding to get to the root of their problem. Otherwise they'll continue throwing things at the wall even if they don't care that much. They are doing damaging stuff as noticeable artists with influence on others when they could not be doing this. That's the sad part. It's totally against their interests and they still do it because of the "US vs THEM" mentality edging them on.

Rather than learning from the many references shown, they fight it for what look like some petty reasons.
Something in the message is clearly not going trough.

Edit:
Also


The artist themself asked to people to get along so those people are just using this as an excuse

Yeah, I have no clue why several artists use this specific one as a springboard, when the comic artist immediately reacted to it.
Do they have a different version of the story in one of their private community discussion servers or something?

Edit: yep, seems like privately, the artist don't fit with merrywheather's "PR-friendly" message, as shown by massoluk lower.
 
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Busaiku

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,500
OK, I find it strange that the artist didn't take from the source material and instead used other fan art as a reference.
I mean, there's much more fanart of the character than official art.
That artist might not have even known of the character without the fanart, a lot of which depicts her incorrectly.
 

Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,003
"Artists hardly don't care about the message we present"

This grammatical disaster probably meant hardly cares, and I'm sure MANY actual artists would disagree with that sentiment.
 

Almagest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,447
Spain
Note that they made this one first:


And THEN after the controversy made the light-skinned one because they were "kind of upset"".


Edit: I don't have context for that "merryweather" thing, are they talking about another artist that got attacked for getting the skin tone wrong?

"It's just a drawing. Artists hardly don't care about the message we present"

As an aspiring digital artist, I say speak for yourself. There's transgression and there's pettiness, this reeks of the latter. Shameful reaction overall.
 

massoluk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,586
Thailand
Like I said revenge racism
That is still racism
Also

The artist themself asked to people to get along so those people are just using this as an excuse

Well, I already nagged a few people on Twitter on this and it looks like only I give a shit, but why not. The artist Princess Hinghoi who drew for MerryWeathery and created Explorer-Chan went on a full blown SJW rant.

She fixed Nessa, but whined about SJW demanding the change on her FB



Disclaimer: The FB screenshot is her commenting on another person IG "SJW complained the skin isn't black enough, must be blacker". I'm too lazy to grab another screenshot about her own comics, it's on her FB.

Edit: Her FB is just vile right now,
 
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Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,711
Thailand
Well, I already nagged a few people on Twitter on this and it looks like only I give a shit, but why not. The artist Princess Hinghoi who drew for MerryWeathery and created Explorer-Chan went on a full blown SJW rant.

She fixed Nessa, but whined about SJW demanding the change on her FB



Don't read comment on her fackbook.

Like i said Asian very Colorism and don't understand or care why western serious so much about black people.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Well, I already nagged a few people on Twitter on this and it looks like only I give a shit, but why not. The artist Princess Hinghoi who drew for MerryWeathery and created Explorer-Chan went on a full blown SJW rant.

She fixed Nessa, but whined about SJW demanding the change on her FB


Wow, this explains better where all that spite activity comes from, contrasting to how PR-friendly the Merryweathery twitter account is.
 

Veldin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,182
It's telling how comfortable some people are in dismissing claims of whitewashing, particularly when the criticism is often coming from actual people of color. Self-reflection tends to stop at "I'm not racist", and then the bottom-feeders come out to blindly agree and reinforce that belief. Happens every time. There's a lot of doubling-down and drowning out the criticism in a huddle of "this is fine" and "white power"-adjacent rhetoric. Feeling guilt-free is prioritized at the expense of non-white representation because hey, her skin is slightly tanned and that's enough right? We don't have to go too far with that dark skin, yeah? It's just a preference after all.

The knee-jerk defense of urging respect for an art style while supporting something inherently disrespectful would be hilarious if it wasn't so tiresome. I won't ever feel bad for calling people out on this. If somebody isn't open to confronting their biases then they deserve the hate.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,547
United Kingdom
You're right; "uncontroversial" isn't necessarily the most apt description, given the context. It is, however, mainstream:



I'll also link an engaging critique of the biological basis of race in the context of forensic anthropology, one particular field of anthropology known for its persistence in utilizing the racial classification system:


I was overbroad in my choice of words, but that you'd frame the conception of race-as-socially-constructed being the product of PC policing is concerning. That you'd retort with the accusation that I'm misrepresenting the science or committing "politically motivated doublethink" (which treads awfully close to a certain kind of ideological territory) is... something.

Population genetics is not race. Heritability is not race. Evolutionary biology is not race.

When it's claimed that PC police/postmodernists/cultural marxists/"The Left"/whatever are denying the very obvious truth by being willfully blind to the fact that genetic variation exists within humans, what's really happening is either ignorance to what is being rejected or a disingenuous reframing of the term "race" that is at odds with its use by the public.



From the article:

"Because most alleles are widespread, genetic differences among human populations derive mainly from gradations in allele frequencies rather than from distinctive "diagnostic" genotypes. Indeed, it was only in the accumulation of small allele-frequency differences across many loci that population structure was identified."

Also, the insinuation that genetic differences amongst human populations are equivalent to speciation is alarming, to put it mildly, and I suspect stems from a misreading of those two studies you're comparing. (A percentage of alleles shared between two distinct taxonomic groups is a different metric from a percentage of alleles universal to a single group)



That article lists a number of caveats towards the end, including:

"The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes."

It also makes note, that for the purpose of the analysis, it specifically utilizes especially geographically distinct populations, such distinctions as were to conveniently map onto traditional classifications of race. A survey of the world population is a different matter entirely.


"Race is a social construct" does not mean that differences do not exist between human populations. It does mean that modern humans do not exist in distinct taxonomical groupings.
Gotta say that I agree with everything you've posted. But it doesn't really change my initial point, although maybe using the term "race" specifically was out of place. As an artist I would still use people of similar ancestry as reference for drawing someone of that ancestry, for example: if I were drawing a character who was born to east asian parents I would use people of east Asian ancestry as reference. Similarly, a character like Doomfist isn't designed without any attempt to represent the biology of people of Nigerian ancestry, of which he is. There is absolutely a conscious effort to represent that through more than just the colour of his skin, and to suggest that they could have just used Caucasian people (or any other ancestry) as reference and simply adjusted the colour of their skin to end up with a character that reads as Doomfist reads is just absurd to me. I keep coming back to this, but there's a good reason people want more afrocentric hairstyles in character creators when what they want is to be able to make characters that more closely physically represent them and their population.
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
The fan art is bad and the artist is a bad person. The information in the OP is not enough for me to determine if the artist fucked up with a creative work accidentally (mistakes happen, drawing something the right way is a lot harder than 'don't say racist stuff', etc) versus purposefully creating garbage racist filth, but the way the artist handled this situation kinda tells the tale.

1: They didn't delete the tweet. Art is still up on their TL.

2: I am not entirely sure what this tweet actually says, but based on what Google Translate outputs....yikes, chief. https://twitter.com/Naju0517/status/1139871725930176512
The japanese text says the same as the english text.
"her" in this case means the person who made an edit of the artist. The post is asking to stop going after/attacking her.
They both tried to minimise the situation after abuse started being thrown out at both:
The person who did the first edit that started it all retracted their tweet after disucssing the matter with the artist:
pm1-rulina.jpg

pm2-rulina.jpg
It seems to imply that the edit person was also receiving pressure from the internet, as well as the original artist (bearing language barriers in mind). So they decided to try to minimise the situation.
Edit: Example of abuse the "darker skin edit" person received:
Yes, the discussion is valuable. I hope the drama gets minimised (threats etc.)
tweets about abuse to edit person and reconciliation with orig. artist [please do not pursue]





I think that's enough context for it. Back to colorism and color theory discussion.

The japanese artist doesn't seem to care as much because aren't as affected by comments in english.
(and don't seem to understand the overall issue)

Edit2: the edit peson seems to have deleted all tweets concerning it, including tweets where she described abuse she was receiving (threats on different platforms).
 
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ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
2,233
This feels like the Barret controversy. People were saying he was white-washed, when it was actually just harsh lighting. Now, if they drew Nessa as an actual white person, then that'd be wrong. But even in that drawing, you can tell she's a poc.
 

MXT

Banned
May 13, 2019
646
The japanese text says the same as the english text. "her" in this case means the person who made an edit of the artist.
They both tried to minimise the situation after abuse started being thrown out at both:

The japanese artist doesn't seem to care as much because aren't as affected by comments in english.
(and don't seem to understand the overall issue)

'Deleting will deny the art', etc is bad. Those DMs SUCK.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,229
This feels like the Barret controversy. People were saying he was white-washed, when it was actually just harsh lighting. Now, if they drew Nessa as an actual white person, then that'd be wrong. But even in that drawing, you can tell she's a poc.
The colour being pink.
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
10,915
This feels like the Barret controversy. People were saying he was white-washed, when it was actually just harsh lighting. Now, if they drew Nessa as an actual white person, then that'd be wrong. But even in that drawing, you can tell she's a poc.
13 pages? Yeah, bet no one has posted anything like MY brilliant thought yet! No need to read!
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
This feels like the Barret controversy. People were saying he was white-washed, when it was actually just harsh lighting. Now, if they drew Nessa as an actual white person, then that'd be wrong. But even in that drawing, you can tell she's a poc.

Whitewashing is not only making a character look white. Read the thread before excusing and dismissing the issue, FFS.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
Just threw this together:

sk3nd5ojgt.png
Their art-style in general is more of a faded one the same thing happens to white characters as well on their art. The hair color and everything else has the unsaturated look to it. Perhaps something they can improve on for darker skinned characters, but it is pretty universal with their pieces.

emMIVVhl.jpg
D8vd9Pdl.jpg
 

Mankoto

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,389
I dunno if it's "to own the libs" since several of these arts are mentionning avenging the same "merryweather" person group. So it might be more misplaced "personnal" pettiness than a conscious political movement.
Did that group person receive abuse over their comic or something? My twitter doesn't show negative comments on the top and I'm too lazy to scroll down...

I've been seeing this image on Facebook for the last few days. Looking up the tweet at the top, it may have been deleted. But I think it got everyone at bit more riled up about the situation, even though it appears that the actual artist is a piece of shit in their own right....

64353734_2410455969009483_1663194822309052416_n.jpg
 

Deleted member 32374

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
8,460
Yeah, whitewashing in fan art is real and it isn't just one artist. With all the fan art threads here absolutely this is a great discussion to have. It could have been unintentional and even then it deserves to be discussed how unintentional white washing happens (although its super clear that it isn't a one off incident)

Amazed at the responses in this thread. Like seriously? Can't be black because they have blue eyes.... Really? And yeah, fan art twitter seems pretty nasty, just like the rest of the internet. That's another discussion separate from this one.
 

JoJokomoko

Member
May 31, 2019
313
Thailand
Eastern artists are actually intentionally doing this now, gimme a break



I really hope this doesn't escalate into east vs west now that some of the eastern artists are starting to use reverse racism bait on twitter.
It's pretty tiresome at this point. There must be a better way to make them understand how bad their action was without causing this much commotion.
 
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Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,413
I dunno if it's "to own the libs" since several of these arts are mentionning avenging the same "merryweather" person group. So it might be more misplaced "personnal" pettiness than a conscious political movement.
Did that group person receive abuse over their comic or something? My twitter doesn't show negative comments on the top and I'm too lazy to scroll down...




From this:

To this:
Edit: apparently there's also the double layer of the scottish accent joke being inaccurate. Saw a lot of comments about that.
EDIT2: apparently "merryweather" is not a person, but a group. So individuals in that group might not think the same way, as shown in the tweet in massoluk's post


All this fake lip service and they still don't change her to be as dark as she is. These guys are unforgivingly colorist.
 
May 9, 2019
850
Like I said, the fan art people and anime fans really showed their true colors. This baiting thing is just disgusting.

I also can't stand "western views" talk because it's not only black people in America who deal with colorism. Asians have been dealing with it too and other places around the world.
 

Ragnorok64

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,955
It's amazing how much that original reply that re-uploaded the artist's work to "put them in thier place" really poisoned the well. I can't imagine any actual meaningful discourse was ever going to be able to happen after that.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
people being racist to prove the original fan art totally wasn't racist is a new level of idiocy from the internet

FWIW I think it was unintentional inherent bias on the artist's part and I hope it was a learning experience for them despite what came after
 

Donizetty

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
797
Mexico
thats bullshit. One is drawn art and the other is a cosplay which is dressing up. Sad you would try to equate the two.
Its a dark skin character and its fucked up to be drawing them and trying to lighten their skin either knowingly or unknowingly. Its got fuck all to do with some black kid dressing as iron man.
Get the fuck outta here with this bullshit. These aren't the same at all.
Is this the dumbest post in the thread?
You wearing assless chaps to show your ass like that?

Excuse me, but could you explain less aggressively why they are different things?
From my point of view both are expressions of love for the character from what the cosplayer / artist can and wants to do.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Excuse me, but could you explain less aggressively why they are different things?
From my point of view both are expressions of love for the character from what the cosplayer / artist can and wants to do.

You can change what color you're painting with, you can't change the color of your skin
 

Cien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,526
You have people literally whitewashing characters to "make a statement"

And people wonder why i hate my skin color.
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Yes, When the cosplayer has a good budget, they use green or blue make up in every part of the body to characters with that skin color.
You're trolling at this point.

You have people literally whitewashing characters to "make a statement"

And people wonder why i hate my skin color.
Those who just jump on the "I don't see a problem with colorism" bandwagon can't even fathom how it feels and have probably never even thought about it in their life.
 

Donizetty

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
797
Mexico
you know full well they're not talking about alien skin colours
We are talking about color skin. And how the simple fact that someone make something to represent a character can be a show of the love for the character even when it is not always accurated.
Sometimes when I bake a cake I draw something in the top. The colors it that I used could be no perfect choiced but I really like the poor result and it make me happy to have some "merchandise" about my favorites characters

You're trolling at this point.
No, I'm not. I really want to understand your view point

Edit:
You mentioned black specifically, no?
Yeah, because those cosplayer get a lot of unfair hate just because the skin color doesn't match the character. I feel this case is similar.