This narrative forming that "At least the prequels had a story/narrative"

[TheJackdog]

Idk, I do feel like the prequels had a throughline through all three movies. And the originals.

quality of it is a separate thing from it at least existing.

the new ones feel more like three separate movies with same characters.

 

[Laserdisk]

So everyone in the demographic that wants prequel stuff is a sexist? Really?

They just don't like the designs, or the setting or grew up with those movies...They're just sexists?

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I didn't say everyone.
The quote is right there.
You inferring that is interesting.

 

[Theodoricos]

The narrative does not necessarily imply that the prequels are better. It only states that the prequels were better planned.

The prequels are terrible and they are mired in a variety of issues. Yet at least they follow each other rather nicely by comparison.

The sequels have better dialogue and better acting, but the writing is abysmal and it's clear that they were making it up as they went along. Even if all three films were handled by J. J. Abrams, it's obvious that not even he had concrete ideas about the future films.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

ROS kind of ruined the sequels for me honestly, it was rather meh throughout, with horrible pacing and editing, half fleshed ideas, needless filler and no character progression. That's before factoring in all the constant, offputting references to the previous films, even in supposedly dramatic scenes.

 

[Commedieu]

Narrative?

The Prequels were cheesy and lame. They had characters who all coherently moved through that dumbass story line. I didn't have to keep wondering why are they doing any of this, in the theater. Its embarrassing that I have to admit it. But seeing as how these new movies turned out? Yeah, Lucas went overboard. But he at least added a meaningful bit to star wars. The direction was bad, but there was a clear direction.

Here's how Illl be spending my SW marathons from here out;

Prequels, Rogue One, OGTrilogyVHS. We will forget any of this ever happened. Just like Jurassic Park 3 or everything after Aliens / Alien Isolation game..

 

[Antoo]

I'd argue the prequels fail because they didn't come up with an overarching narrative and lacked foresight until the end. Revenge of the Sith could be good if only any of the plot threads were sufficiently developed. Palpatine and Anakin being friends you just have to buy or else the movie fails. The emotional center of the movie, which is Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship, is finally given some material to work with but it's too little to late. You needed to see the two and their close bond before their eventual clash but it never materialized so they try to force you to feel like these two are close friends.

Honestly, all you need in the prequel era is the Clone Wars animated show then Revenge of the Sith.

 

[Ithil]

The narrative does not necessarily imply that the prequels are better. It only states that the prequels were better planned.

The prequels are terrible and they are mired in a variety of issues. Yet at least they follow each other rather nicely by comparison.

The sequels have better dialogue and better acting, but the writing is abysmal and it's clear that they were making it up as they went along. Even if all three films were handled by J. J. Abrams, it's obvious that not even he had concrete ideas about the future films.

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The PT was also made up as they went along, as was the OT. Star Wars has never been planned out.

Lucas' story treatment for the PT was about the last third of ROTS. That's the only part he had in mind long in advance, the climax of the third Episode (and even then, big details changed in the writing of the film). The rest, he just made up film by film. That's why there's so many superfluous characters and elements that just show up and are dropped, cos there was zero planning beyond "Well Anakin turns bad and is burned and turns into Vader".

 

[Commedieu]

I'd argue the prequels fail because they didn't come up with an overarching narrative and lacked foresight until the end. Revenge of the Sith could be good if only any of the plot threads were sufficiently developed. Palpatine and Anakin being friends you just have to buy or else the movie fails. The emotional center of the movie, which is Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship, is finally given some material to work with but it's too little to late. You needed to see the two and their close bond before their eventual clash but it never materialized so they try to force you to feel like these two are close friends.

Honestly, all you need in the prequel era is the Clone Wars animated show then Revenge of the Sith.

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You can argue that.

But thats pretty much saying you didn't like what was offered. Unfortunately, TLJ/TFA didn't even offer anything to criticize. A bad meal is still food.

 

[Antoo]

You can argue that.

But thats pretty much saying you didn't like what was offered. Unfortunately, TLJ/TFA didn't even offer anything to criticize. A bad meal is still food.

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I mean Revenge straight up had to make plot threads (Palps/Anakin bond) out of thin air so its story would work. That straight up shows how poorly conceived George had this trilogy planned out. It wasn't until the end that he had an "oh shit" moment, and ultimately realized he had a very specific goal with this trilogy that he has spent the last two films actively ignoring.

We needed Anakin and Obi-Wan having a back and forth dynamic so we can see what their relationship was like. AotC had Anakin being whiny about Obi-Wan right from the get go. The story we missing a piece. ROTS realized this and actively scrambled to make the two feel like friends.

 

[Ithil]

You can argue that.

But thats pretty much saying you didn't like what was offered. Unfortunately, TLJ/TFA didn't even offer anything to criticize. A bad meal is still food.

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The idea that there is nothing to discuss about TLJ is laughable at best.

 

[Theodoricos]

The PT was also made up as they went along, as was the OT. Star Wars has never been planned out.

Lucas' story treatment for the PT was about the last third of ROTS. That's the only part he had in mind long in advance, the climax of the third Episode (and even then, big details changed in the writing of the film). The rest, he just made up film by film. That's why there's so many superfluous characters and elements that just show up and are dropped, cos there was zero planning beyond "Well Anakin turns bad and is burned and turns into Vader".

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My point stands. Even with everything you said being true, they're still better planned. That's the problem. There aren't as many contradictions and one of them leads into the other. Palpatine was always the mastermind, Anakin was always going to turn bad, the Jedi Order was always going to fall, etc.

Obviously the OT was not planned because nobody knew if Star Wars would become the success it did. By contrast, Disney knew there'd be a trilogy and yet chose to do nothing.

 

[Yasuke]

Just accept it. You're too close to the hype to properly judge this new trilogy. The prequels suck, but they are better in the end. This current one won't age well. Let's revisit this topic once the hype dies down. Even Disney and JJ will admit that they were lacking one day.

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Better than what?!

What is this? Where am I?

TFA and TROS aren't good (well, the latter isn't, the former's just kind of alright, especially in hindsight with how the trilogy closed), but they're nowhere near the travesty of the PT. Don't fucking make me defend JJ Abrams, guys, pls.

 

[TyraZaurus]

My point stands. Even with everything you said being true, they're still better planned. That's the problem. There aren't as many contradictions and one of them leads into the other. Palpatine was always the mastermind, Anakin was always going to turn bad, the Jedi Order was always going to fall, etc.

Obviously the OT was not planned because nobody knew if Star Wars would become the success it did. By contrast, Disney knew there'd be a trilogy and yet chose to do nothing.

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The Prequel Trilogy is FULL of contradictions

 

[Deleted member 21709]

Should we have a specific 'Star Wars' forum?

 

[Ithil]

My point stands. Even with everything you said being true, they're still better planned. That's the problem. There aren't as many contradictions and one of them leads into the other. Palpatine was always the mastermind, Anakin was always going to turn bad, the Jedi Order was always going to fall, etc.

Obviously the OT was not planned because nobody knew if Star Wars would become the success it did. By contrast, Disney knew there'd be a trilogy and yet chose to do nothing.

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Having an end point isn't a plan, it's an end point. A plan would actually include the beats, which the PT does not. By your metric, Lucas had full creative control to write, direct and finance his PT, two decades to come up with them, and still planned nothing out beyond the outline he had from the early 1980s (which just covers the climax of ROTS only).
Put this on top of the films having terrible acting and writing, and a variety of ugly effects and visuals.

 

[TheHunter]

You can argue that.

But thats pretty much saying you didn't like what was offered. Unfortunately, TLJ/TFA didn't even offer anything to criticize. A bad meal is still food.

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So people have been shouting into the void the past three years over nothing then.

 

[Commedieu]

So people have been shouting into the void the past three years over nothing then.

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The idea that there is nothing to discuss about TLJ is laughable at best.

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I didn't say nothing to discuss, in context of what was offered in Ops comment. For example The believably of Anakin and Ben being friends was offered to the viewer. whether or not you believed it? Thats on you. The prequels offered a boat load of story and character goals.

It was all stupid, but as I said earlier -- it went the way it was trying to go. It was better than... wondering what else you could be doing with your time in the theater.

I mean Revenge straight up had to make plot threads (Palps/Anakin bond) out of thin air so its story would work. That straight up shows how poorly conceived George had this trilogy planned out. It wasn't until the end that he had an "oh shit" moment, and ultimately realized he had a very specific goal with this trilogy that he has spent the last two films actively ignoring.

We needed Anakin and Obi-Wan having a back and forth dynamic so we can see what their relationship was like. AotC had Anakin being whiny about Obi-Wan right from the get go. The story we missing a piece. ROTS realized this and actively scrambled to make the two feel like friends.

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Isn't that still being critical of the offerings? -- Also -- The prequels were not some grand achievement. Just, if you're comparing... well... it comes out ahead imo.

 

[Theodoricos]

Having an end point isn't a plan, it's an end point. A plan would actually include the beats, which the PT does not. By your metric, Lucas had full creative control to write, direct and finance his PT, two decades to come up with them, and still planned nothing out beyond the outline he had from the early 1980s (which just covers the climax of ROTS only).
Put this on top of the films having terrible acting and writing, and a variety of ugly effects and visuals.

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Spoiler: ST Spoilers

So you're saying that the ST had an end point? Rey was always going to be a Palpatine and she was always going to accept the Skywalker name? Kylo Ren was always going to be redeemed?

Because from watching TLJ alone, you can tell that's clearly not the case.

 

[Ithil]

Spoiler: ST Spoilers

So you're saying that the ST had an end point? Rey was always going to be a Palpatine and she was always going to accept the Skywalker name? Kylo Ren was always going to be redeemed?

Because from watching TLJ alone, you can tell that's clearly not the case.

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I'm talking about the notion that the PT was "planned out".

 

[Antoo]

If the argument is that Revenge of the Sith has a narrative then I'd agree (even then the movie has shit like Yoda's fanservice trip to Kashyyyk and robotman vs Kenobi bad dialogue aside). It's the only film that builds on the goal of a prequel that showed how Vader became Vader in the first place.

Phantom Menace? What the hell is even happening in this movie? It's TROS except with boring uninteresting characters that have no chemistry. TROS is a mess but at least the main trio bounce off each other. Nothing in this movie matters.

Attack of the Clones? Fails to make Anakin a conflicted character. Doesn't develop Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship to make them believable friends. The only thing it does is set up Anakin and Padme's romantic relationship and.....yeesh. Just watch Clone Wars.

Revenge of the Sith is catchup the movie. It needs to do so much except unlike TROS most of it is essential because the plot has barely been pushed forward. TROS could cut the needless fan service and 10 MacGuffins and focus on Kylo and Rey's relationship. That is the central relationship and conflict of the ST. In the prequels by the point of the third movie the central conflict was royally fucked beyond belief. If ROTS doesn't make sure we buy Anakin's relationship with Padme,Obi-Wan, and the Senate then the movie trilogy would have been for nothing.

 

[Theodoricos]

I'm talking about the notion that the PT was "planned out".

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I said "better planned". Each PT movie follows the previous one at least somewhat logically, countless other flaws notwithstanding. TFA to TLJ was fine for the most part, but with the very start of TROS you can see that several important plot points have been changed or abandoned, to the point where we needed a montage to tell us what's different.

 

[JahIthBer]

I don't think it's just the story that gets praised for the prequels, kind of the opposite, it's the prequels original ideas & expanding the SW universe that gives it credit today, ST tried way too hard to copy the OT, it worked for people's nostalgia in TFA, but by the time TLJ came out, people started to miss the creativity of the prequels.

Pod Racing & the CIS army are pretty fun, they fit amazing in video games, then you got lots of cool new planets on top of that & while the politics may have bored people, it was nice to see the senate we heard about, especially when Palpatine destroyed it. When it comes to the sequels, i can't think of many new ideas or cool designs, it seems even Klaud got his role cut in ROS because they realised he looks lame, i guess Knights of Ren & Phasma were pretty cool, but they get wasted hard, so it's difficult to bring them up without pointing out another flaw with the sequels.

 

[TyraZaurus]

No contradictions in the prequels... I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Nearly everything that Obi-wan tells Luke in ANH is contradicted by those things, and not all of them can be papered over with "he's just lying to protect Luke" or "from a certain point of view". Like that bit about Anakin and Uncle Owen having a disagreement; what purpose does that even SERVE? And when was Leia supposed to have known her mother? The movies are full of stuff like this.

 

[louisacommie]

The prequals are about neoliberalism turning Into fascism

 

[Ithil]

No contradictions in the prequels... I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. Nearly everything that Obi-wan tells Luke in ANH is contradicted by those things, and not all of them can be papered over with "he's just lying to protect Luke" or "from a certain point of view". Like that bit about Anakin and Uncle Owen having a disagreement; what purpose does that even SERVE? And when was Leia supposed to have known her mother? The movies are full of stuff like this.

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But they had loads of stupid looking ships that showed up briefly and had toys made of them. That's worldbuilding!

 

[Kalentan]

But they had loads of stupid looking ships that showed up briefly and had toys made of them. That's worldbuilding!

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At least it had some semblance of worldbuilding.

Which again is important for franchises like Star Wars. Like do people honestly think Harry Potter would have been as popular as it is if the worldbuilding hadn't made super appealing? Kids dreamed of attending Hogwarts.

In regards to just the ST, what does it bring to the table? What new and interesting ideas does it add to the Universe? Off the top of my head it's force powers, that's really it.

With the PT, they may have not been good movies but I still wanted to see more of that time period. After the ST is over, I don't really care? Like I still actually like Star Wars and think anyone saying it's "Dead" is being dumb but the ST from a worldbuilding standpoint is incredibly poor and makes future prospects of exploring that time period very meh.

 

[DidactBRHU3]

The PT led to The Clone Wars, so that makes it infinitely better than the ST for now. I guess we need to wait for whatever comes next.

 

[TyraZaurus]

At least it had some semblance of worldbuilding.

Which again is important for franchises like Star Wars. Like do people honestly think Harry Potter would have been as popular as it is if the worldbuilding hadn't made super appealing? Kids dreamed of attending Hogwarts.

In regards to just the ST, what does it bring to the table? What new and interesting ideas does it add to the Universe? Off the top of my head it's force powers, that's really it.

With the PT, they may have not been good movies but I still wanted to see more of that time period. After the ST is over, I don't really care? Like I still actually like Star Wars and think anyone saying it's "Dead" is being dumb but the ST from a worldbuilding standpoint is incredibly poor and makes future prospects of exploring that time period very meh.

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New and more dramatic and mystical ways to use the force and actually creating a sense of mystery and wonder with it is a HUGE contribution.

But as for stuff it contributed that are great things to be followed up on by other creators' and fans' imaginations:

- Stormtrooper deserters
- New "hives of scum and villainy" besides just Tatooine and the Hutts
- The history of the Final order and Sith cult on Exogol is just BEGGING to be expanded upon, and makes the Sith look legitimately terrifying and more like a religion of evil than just a two person Legion of Doom
- 30 years of history that can be seized upon, and is, in stuff like the Mandalorian

And that's just off the top of my head. Is all of this in the movies? No, perhaps not. But neither is all the stuff that people say fleshed out the PT. The Confederate System of Planets is only fleshed out because side material like The Clone Wars broke their backs to flesh it out and do it well.

And yes, all of the ST stuff counts even if it spins out of stuff like the Empire or Rebellion or other established things. In fictional universes, things build off each other. That's not "recycling", like everyone claims.

 

[Ryan.]

I'll give you the middle two. Shot/Editing were not worse, pacing is arguable, but writing? AotC styles all over the unmitigated disaster that is TLJ. I WISH Rian would have put as much effort into writing Luke's story arc as much as Lucas had Anakin bitch about sand. It would have made for a MUCH better movie!

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[Phil me in]

If we're going to compare PT to the new trilogy it's simple.

PT was garbage with terrible writing. Despite this it was fun and sort of original in the Star Wars universe. You would watch them multiplied times because they were fun, albeit not as much as the OT.

New trilogy is just boring they had Disney bank rolling and a collection of decent actors and pretty much free reign to continue the story. The best they could come up with was TFA a scene for scene copy of a new home being very predictable.

TLJ again copying empire to an extent and managing to be mind mumbling boring everything outside of luke and rey.

I haven't seen the last film but I'm fully expecting Rey being confused and kylo teaming up and/or saving Rey as they defeat palaptine.

 

[cubicle47b]

I agree with the "at least the PT had a point" criticism. They're unwatchable movies and have been almost since release, but the rise of the emperor/fascism and the fall of Anakin/the Jedi/democracy were interesting enough ideas to base a trilogy around. Star Wars needs its Kevin Feige.

 

[Mockerre]

The narrative is forming... because it's the right conclusion. The PT may be overstuffed with bad CGI and stilted dialogue, but it has a clear storyline about the fall of democracy (with the rise of alt-right across the world, it's more current than ever). They may be badly acted, but the characters have clear motivations and arcs.

The ST is a cynical exploitation of nostalgia/storied franchise, with cinematic craftsmenship, but devoid of any substance or meaning. It's the definition of fastfood. It's got more in common with Bayformers, Independence Day Resurgence, Battleship, TMNT and the like than the OT/PT.

 

[GaimeGuy]

The prequels had the benefit that most viewers knew what the story arc was going to be about (i.e. Palpatine manipulating everyone and taking over the Senate, Jedis go extinct, Anakin becomes Vader, etc.). The execution was poor (acting, dialogue, pacing, bad taste CGI) but the story was indeed simple to follow, if only because everyone knew the endgame beforehand.

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No acting could save Lucas's awful script and directing.

There are some botched deliveries of awkward lines ("don't you turn against me") that even an amateur director could have fixed with a 30 second retake. But there's no salvaging a scene where the protagonist admits to slaughtering children and Padme responds "We all get angry." Or a scene where anakin and padme talk about sand and how much they love each other. Audible groans from the entire theater at his dialogue.