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Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,303
For those who don't know, the B&B's standing for "beauty and the beast" were MGS4's group of bosses.

What were they? Well.. this.
7fc01c741435193d974a4e9d39800b03.jpg

Kojima scanned four real life models into the game and put them in these giant robot suits. Once you kill the robot, the girls come out of the suit. They look like this
310

And sexually walk towards snake, who either has to kill or tranq them. The sexualization is actually one of the least surprising things considering Kojima to me though.

On top of that, every single one of them has PTSD due to some way over the top backstory that includes some horrible atrocities they committed in their past

On top of that, each one is supposed to be a conglomeration of past MGS bosses. Sporting a FOXHOUND members name, a Dead Cell member's weapon, and a Cobra member's emotion.

On top of THAT, it's revealed in the end that they were all being controlled by a nanomachine implementation of Psycho Mantis' will into the leader, Screaming Mantis.

in general they feel disconnected from the game's main story. Only being relevant for the intro cutscene with all of them in act one, and their respective fights.

MGS4 in general dealt with soldiers' emotions and PTSD, but this was definitely the most bizarre way it went about doing so.

just explaining it sounds crazy. He body scanned four models, sexualized the hell out of them, slapped them in a big robotic suit decked out with weapons, gave them horrifying backstories, connected them to every past MGS boss, and in the end had them all being controlled by Mantis. Like what the fuck lmao

That's not even mentioning the photo mode that snake can enter where he can take pictures of the models.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,635
I like Kojima but this shit was fucking wack bro, the way they'd pose for you and everything like it was some sexy photo shoot after detailing their tragic back stories was a big ol' YIKES. Good boss fights tho.

I know people like to latch onto the Quiet shit but I'm surprised a bigger stinker has never been raised over this. Feels a lot more worse imo.

ace131ec1db615d2d3448a217a18cfcf.gif






 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
They were awesome, very unique and memorable concept and designs. The name is great too.

Their intro sequence was so good.
 
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Phendrift

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,303
I like Kojima but this shit was fucking wack bro, the way they'd pose for you and everything like it was some sexy photo shoot after detailing their tragic back stories was a big ol' YIKES.

Well actually the tragic backstory was revealed in a codec monologue from Drebin AFTER the fact, but yeah. A really weird disconnect
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
I like Kojima but this shit was fucking wack bro, the way they'd pose for you and everything like it was some sexy photo shoot after detailing their tragic back stories was a big ol' YIKES.

ace131ec1db615d2d3448a217a18cfcf.gif




It wasn't even the girls telling you their backstory, it was Drebin, which was even dumber.
 
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Phendrift

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,303
They were awesome, very unique and memorable idea.

Their intro sequence was so good.
Some of my favorite bosses of that generation, especially Crying Wolf.

Their mech designs were top notch.
On my second replay they were definitely more memorable and I appreciated the mechanics of the fights more.

I'm not trying to downplay the sexualization but that's been discussed a lot, I find kind of everything around them to be bizarre. Some of it enjoyable crazy, some of it entertaining, and some of it just... what the fuck?
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,753
User banned (1 week): defending and excusing sexism
On my second replay they were definitely more memorable and I appreciated the mechanics of the fights more.

I'm not trying to downplay the sexualization but that's been discussed a lot, I find kind of everything around them to be bizarre. Some of it enjoyable crazy, some of it entertaining, and some of it just... what the fuck?

Pure, unadulterated Kojima. Can't hate the man.
 

Shoot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,549
The previous games had their moments but this was the first time that I actually felt uncomfortable.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
How was it dumber than them telling their life story to Snake?

They had no reason to and weren't of sound mind.

Someone else telling their story made way more sense.

Because it would've humanized them just a bit instead of just being objects for you to gawk at and take pictures of.

Especially since they're supposed to be callbacks to MGS1 bosses that had all the time in the world to tell you their life story as they lie bleeding on the ground.
 

GillianSeed79

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,371
Coming off of the MGS3's amazing boss fights, arguably the best in the series, I remember being super let down by the B&B Unit. Their designs were cool, but they never felt like a combat puzzle like the other bosses in the series. Plus the long awkward drawn out lore dump by Drebin after you beat them was a big let down. I'm convinced that Kojima was so done with Metal Gear by MSGIV that he made it as batshit weird as possible so they wouldn't let him make another. God that whole game was a bummer to me compared to MGS3. Luckily, MGSV made up for it with its awesomeness.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,719
how did drebin know their backstories if they always involved like, each b&b going insane and being the sole survivor of whatever traumatic massacre they were in
 

The Last One

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,585
The Screaming Mantis fight is something special. I love when she pretends to reset the game as a call back to the "Hideo 1" from the Psycho Mantis fight in MGS 1.
 
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Phendrift

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,303
I like Kojima but this shit was fucking wack bro, the way they'd pose for you and everything like it was some sexy photo shoot after detailing their tragic back stories was a big ol' YIKES. Good boss fights tho.

I know people like to latch onto the Quiet shit but I'm surprised a bigger stinker has never been raised over this. Feels a lot more worse imo.

ace131ec1db615d2d3448a217a18cfcf.gif







I think it's because Quiet is constantly in MGSV. Loads of cutscenes with her.

This really only happens at the end of their boss fights. They weren't nearly as key characters, if characters at all, in the game.

Plus Kojima didn't even try to "words and deeds" this one, the intent was clear. Him trying to justify Quiet made way more discussion
 

MoosetheMark

Member
May 3, 2019
690
What's even weirder is that it's pretty much the exact same thing Kojima did eight years earlier with the Integral release of MGS1, where your reward for completing VR missions was getting closer and closer to a low-poly model of Mei Ling.

 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
Because it would've humanized them just a bit instead of just being objects for you to gawk at and take pictures of.

Especially since they're supposed to be callbacks to MGS1 bosses that had all the time in the world to tell you their life story as they lie bleeding on the ground.

You do realize you are talking about characters that had lost their minds, right?

Or did you expect them to instantly heal from their traumas after being defeated by Snake and spill their life story to him before dying?

Really?
 

EndlessNever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,890
MGS4 in general is just so weird and constantly off point. There is so much serious, emotional scenes but then you look at the B&B unit and outright cringe at some stuff. It's why MGS4 is just a sore spot in general, because even though all other MGS games do struggle with this somewhat, not to the degree MGS4 does.

The weirdest unit Kojima has created? Maybe, but the worst is held for MGS5.
 
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Phendrift

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,303
MGS4 in general is just so weird and constantly off point. There is so much serious, emotional scenes but then you look at the B&B unit and outright cringe at some stuff. It's why MGS4 is just a sore spot in general, because even though all other MGS games do struggle with this somewhat, not to the degree MGS4 does.

The weirdest unit Kojima has created? Maybe, but the worst is held for MGS5.
Yeah because it didn't even have a boss unit

:(
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
Oh man, my memory keeps trying to convince me that MGS4 was amazing but every time I remember specifics like these.. geeze... there is so much unparsimonious crap, packaged in the least tactful manner imaginable. Kojima often strikes me as an ultra-creative mind who also unfortunately is stuck with the maturity of a 13 year old.
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
You do realize you are talking about characters that had lost their minds, right?

Or did you expect them to instantly heal from their traumas after being defeated by Snake and spill their life story to him before dying?

Really?

Are you Shane Bettenhausen.

Where do we draw the line for what qualifies as ridiculous logic in an MGS game?
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,653
Great, great bossfights, with maybe the exception of Mantis. But yeah, shit was weird. But that's MGS in a nutshell I guess.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
Maybe in MGS but the creepy groping in Policenauts is easily the worst thing he has ever done.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,899
It's peak Kojima.

There really just ain't anything else to say but that.

There's plenty to say, like: "this stuff missed the mark and was downright gross objectification", for starters. Just brushing it aside cause it's "Kojima" is how a character like Quiet features in a game from 2015.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,719
snake

vibing kangaroo was born in a small town in australia. one day so bogans began hooning in the town, ruining all the good vibes and running over all the villagers. a young girl ran to the closest station and hid so she could vibe check in peace. but the hopping of a kangaroo didn't let her. the kangaroo hopped all over the hooners and crushed them... but it also flipped over the barbie. the shrimp, and the fire, went everywhere, and the village was burned up. the soldiers came and found only a girl... snake, there was no kangaroo. that was vibing kangaroo, and you cleansed her soul

you cleansed her soul by taking pictures of her as she erotically writhed on the ground while having a mental breakdown and regressing to a childlike traumatic state.


snake, also let me tell you about how paz is actually in her 20s so it's okay and quiet HAS to breathe and drink through her skin which is why she can't wear clothes and rolls around in water
 

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
Listening to Drebin drone on in one of the most over the top tragic backstories for one of these BB's really made me despise that game.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,387
Pure, unadulterated Kojima. Can't hate the man.
Actually not that difficult to hate sexism that leans into misogyny. 🤷‍♂️

There's plenty to say, like: "this stuff missed the mark and was downright gross objectification", for starters. Just brushing it aside cause it's "Kojima" is how a character like Quiet features in a game from 2015.


Y'all don't have to lap up everything the man does. It's ok to criticize the BS in his games.
 

Deleted member 19213

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
363
Bizzare, yes, but also brilliant. There was something very chilling about those beautiful women creepily crawling towards Snake.
 

Arta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,445
Listening to Drebin drone on in one of the most over the top tragic backstories for one of these BB's really made me despise that game.
snake, also let me tell you about how paz is actually in her 20s so it's okay and quiet HAS to breathe and drink through her skin which is why she can't wear clothes and rolls around in water
Also Pax gets brutally sexually assaulted and a kid is made to join in. This actually happens in MGS Ground Zeroes.

I can't believe Kojima got away with all that shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,505
They were one of my least favorite parts of MGS4 despite it being one of my favorite games of all time,
they felt weirdly tacked on while the other boss fights(Rex vs Ray, Snake vs Ocelot) were some of the best moments in the franchise.

Even the decent one Wolf, was already inferior to Sniper Wolf and now inferior to Quite's fight as well.