THIS IS WHY YOU VOTE. ESPN: Trump’s Justice Department on Connecticut Case: “Don’t treat trans athletes as girls

[Christian]

The U.S. Justice Department is getting involved in a federal civil rights lawsuit that seeks to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from competing as girls in interscholastic sports.

Attorney General William Barr signed what is known as a statement of interest Tuesday, arguing against the policy of the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, the board that oversees the state's high school athletic competitions.

The CIAC allows athletes to compete as the gender with which they identify, arguing it is following a state law that requires high school students be treated according to their gender identity. It also argues the policy is in accordance with Title IX, the federal law that allows girls equal educational opportunities, including in athletics.

The Justice Department, in its filing, disagrees.

"Under CIAC's interpretation of Title IX, however, schools may not account for the real physiological differences between men and women. Instead, schools must have certain biological males -- namely, those who publicly identify as female -- compete against biological females,'' Barr and the other department officials write. "In so doing, CIAC deprives those women of the single-sex athletic competitions that are one of the marquee accomplishments of Title IX."

The lawsuit was filed in February by runners Selina Soule, a senior at Glastonbury High School; Chelsea Mitchell, a senior at Canton High School; and Alanna Smith, a sophomore at Danbury High School, against the CIAC and several local boards of education. They argue they have been deprived of wins, state titles and athletic opportunities by being forced to compete against transgender athletes.

"Males will always have inherent physical advantages over comparably talented and trained girls -- that's the reason we have girls sports in the first place,'' their attorney, Christiana Holcomb, said Wednesday. "And a male's belief about his gender doesn't eliminate those advantages.''

Messages seeking comment were left Wednesday with the attorneys representing the CIAC, other defendants and the American Civil Liberties Union, which represents the two transgender girls who run track in Connecticut.

The spring track season is on hold because of the COVID-19 pandemic, but CIAC officials have put off a decision on whether to cancel it.

Holcomb has said that because the lawsuit also asks for changes to the state record book, the lawsuit will go forward even if it is not resolved before the seniors graduate.

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ESPN

 

[Christian]

Asked for a thread title fix. Sorry about that.

 

[Kace]

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

 

[Ramala]

Irrespective of the question of whether or not trans athletes should be allowed to compete, this is the Trump administration so this decision is entirely motivated by persecution.

 

[Big Tent Expat]

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

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Irrespective of the question of whether or not trans athletes should be allowed to compete, this is the Trump administration so this decision is entirely motivated by persecution.

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Two and done.

 

[Sincerest]

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

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Pretty much.

 

[Deepwater]

Unintended thread backfire? People have very strong (IMO, wrong) views on trans athletes with or without trump

 

[Shodan14]

Unintended thread backfire? People have very strong (IMO, wrong) views on trans athletes with or without trump

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Isn't there a ToR thing for this topic on ERA?

 

[mr stroke]

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

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Yup

100% for trans rights. But if people are "competing in a sport" then its not equal for anyone

 

[Gleethor]

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

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And if they're on hormones they'll be at a disadvantage against men.

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

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plenty of cis women have biological advantages too. Should we exclude them too in the name of fairness?

btw it's funny how none of these folks give a shit about women's athletics until it presents a ripe opportunity to persecute trans folk.

 

[Christian]

Muscular differences are gone after about a year of hormone therapy, anyway. And as Gleethor said, there are huge genetic variations among people within the same gender already, but no one complains about that. Skeletal structure is already highly varied. To act like that's suddenly an unfair advantage for a specific set of people but no one else is incredibly disingenuous.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

"biological advantages" is a weird line to draw when it comes to sports. People don't exactly come in one size and shape, so should we set height, weight and hormone restrictions on who can train as an athlete?

 

[Kace]

And if they're on hormones they'll be at a disadvantage against men.

plenty of cis women have biological advantages too. Should we exclude them too in the name of fairness?

btw it's funny how none of these folks give a shit about women's athletics until it presents a ripe opportunity to persecute trans folk.

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There are plenty of cis men that are born with biological advantages over other men that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking an an advantage of men in general that all get just by going through puberty not by the genetic lottery .

 

[thediamondage]

Aren't there a couple of big Title IX lawsuits winding their way to the supreme court? I just can't see any form of current SCOTUS ruling in favor of trans rights especially when it comes to athletics, wonder what the fallout will be.

A lot of trans rights in schools revolve around interpretations of Title IX, which basically made schools provide equal facilities and opportunities to women back in the 70s and 80s - if you didn't provide seperate leagues/facilities/scholarships/programs/etc, you had to shut down the mens programs. If the supreme court rules that trans athletes do not fall under the rubric of Title IX protections, it could have massive ripple effects.

 

[SkimpyMcChicken]

I agree that most trans women are probably biologically comparable to the cis women they're competing against.

However, as soon as this theoretical trans woman starts excelling, it immediately calls into question just how fair it really is. Being a high level trans athlete is already a 1 in 1,000 thing. If you're really that good, no one will believe the playing field is equal, and maybe it isn't in that case?

This reminds me of Oscar Pistorius. He was a double leg amputee, and he was good enough to qualify for the Olympics. As soon as he did qualify people started questioning if a double leg amputee actually had an advantage. His blade legs don't fatigue, they're lighter, they use zero blood, they're aerodynamic.

Pistorious also encountered this earlier in his career. He was limited to competing against other athletes missing legs, but that included some single leg amputees. They use like 8% more energy with every step because they've got one real leg and one prosthetic. Its uneven, burns more energy with every stride. Pistorious argued there simply weren't enough athletes in the double amputee category for him to compete against.

Ultimately I believe he ended up racing against everyone he set out to race. Paralympics in either category, and the Olympics themselves

 

[PoppaBK]

"biological advantages" is a weird line to draw when it comes to sports. People don't exactly come in one size and shape, so should we set height, weight and hormone restrictions on who can train as an athlete?

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Well we do have all those criteria on dividing athletes into groups depending on the discipline.
The question is how do the populations look as a normal distribution. If you look at say 100m sprint times between men and women you will see two statistically different populations. I don't think we have enough trans athletes to draw those type of statistical inferences yet, so for now I think trans athletes should be allowed to compete with their gender peers. But as we get more data, there may be a time when we have to revisit that idea.

 

[Bing147]

Muscular differences are gone after about a year of hormone therapy, anyway. And as Gleethor said, there are huge genetic variations among people within the same gender already, but no one complains about that. Skeletal structure is already highly varied. To act like that's suddenly an unfair advantage for a specific set of people but no one else is incredibly disingenuous.

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I mean, if you follow that logic to its natural conclusion we should just throw out Title IX altogether. After all, there are some women who could beat some men at any sport. A girl was just named state champion in wrestling. Elena Della Donne would kick my ass one on one (and probably in any other athletic competition outside of something that is purely weight based like lifting. There are women who would beat me at that too.).

The entire point of Title IX is that we acknowledge as a society that on average women are at a significant biological disadvantage in most major sports and to force women to compete against men would mean that for the vast majority of women these sports are not an option.

Muscular differences are not skeletal differences. Those never go completely away. The studies are also a lot more mixed on how much these advantages slip away over time than you present.

I'm very much in favor of trans rights and I do think whenever possible allowing trans women to compete as women is the best option, but there should be serious testing/restrictions in place which will prevent some from competing. We want to make things as fair as possible, but this is an area where we're likely never going to find a perfect balance of fairness for all sides and the solution to making things fair for trans women shouldn't be to make them unfair for cis women.

 

[Reinhard]

Sounds like hormone therapy for 1 year should be a requirement to help level the playing field when it comes to muscle mass. But increased skeletal structure / being taller / increased bone mass will always be a general advantage of Trans-women who went through puberty before transitioning. There's no clear cut answer, especially for sports that highly depend on height like basketball, and height / reach tends to help in most sports.

Edit : sorry, I was writing on mobile and didn't realize I left out biological when I mentioned men and puberty, and I realize that was stupid to say it that way in first place when I can just say Trans women so I changed it to that.

 

[Jokab]

"biological advantages" is a weird line to draw when it comes to sports. People don't exactly come in one size and shape, so should we set height, weight and hormone restrictions on who can train as an athlete?

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I think this would be a valid argument if it weren't for the fact that even mid-teen male athletes are just way better than world-class female athletes. As far as world record 100m sprints go, which I would argue if one of the most impressive feats of strength, the world record youth time is 10.15 (16 year boy) while the current world record for women is 10.49 (which, by the way, in itself is way faster than the 2nd fastest). If the 16 year-old boy transitioned, are you saying he would not completely dominate the sport, easily breaking the world record?

Looking at a more technical sport like soccer, it's not even close. In my country, which is one of the best internationally when it comes to women, the boys-16 team of one of the top teams played the women's national team. In my experience this almost never happens in top-level football so it's an interesting example to look at. The result? 3-0, and the boys played with one less player in the second half in an effort to even out the odds.

 

[Squarehard]

Thread is barely even 20 posts in and people are already showing their ignorance.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

Considering trans women have been allowed to compete against cis women at the olympics for over 15 years without ever getting an Olympic medal it's really hard to argue they have an inherent Male advantage if they have been on HRT long enough.
Trans women in sports isn't exactly new and none ever made it to the very top.

Also there's a trans man who might compete:

Trans Athlete Chris Mosier on Qualifying for the Olympic Trials (Published 2020)

Mosier is the first transgender athlete to qualify for and participate in an Olympic trials event in the gender with which he identifies.

www.nytimes.com

"Mosier is the first transgender athlete to qualify for and participate in an Olympic trials event in the gender with which he identifies."

At some point arguing about the inherent advantages of trans over cis women in performance is ignorance at best.

 

[Menx64]

The problem with these cases are the agendas behind the people talking about it. E Equal pay for women? No
Equal opportunity? No
Trans women?? Outrageous!!!

 

[Volimar]

Thread is barely even 20 posts in and people are already showing their ignorance.

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Yep. One of the things that the staff has been very firm on is characterizations of trans athletes. We had posting guidelines for it, I wonder if they're still current.

 

[Iscariot]

Thread is barely even 20 posts in and people are already showing their ignorance.

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So post some scientific journal studies links. It's a discussion forum.

 

[Raonak]

I do actually see how there is an argument for this, in that men have an obvious physical advantage over women. So much so that people have created segregated sports/competetions for women.

I do hope biological women do have an avenue to excel, but i dont think they will compare favourably to the average trans athlete. Because banning trans people probably wont go over well.

I can totally see a future where gender segregation in sports is gone. Or drugs are allowed to level the playing field.

But unless it becomes a super common thing, i dont really think its worth caring about.

 

[RadzPrower]

Do we just do away with dividing sports by men and women entirely and instead move to something like a weight class ala boxing? If not weight class, something else that's appropriate for the given sport?

 

[Deleted member 14377]

I'm sure these folks that are banned for a month are going to come back educated. Perm these assholes, we have a trans community here.

 

[Renna Hazel]

Do we just do away with dividing sports by men and women entirely and instead move to something like a weight class ala boxing? If not weight class, something else that's appropriate for the given sport?

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This is what I would prefer.

In reference to the OP, this was clearly done out of hatred. And yes, I will be voting for whoever runs against Trump, most likely Biden.

 

[Emmaginary]

Sounds like hormone therapy for 1 year should be a requirement to help level the playing field when it comes to muscle mass. But increased skeletal structure / being taller / increased bone mass will always be a general advantage of men who went through puberty before transitioning. There's no clear cut answer, especially for sports that highly depend on height like basketball, and height / reach tends to help in most sports.

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Women who went through the wrong puberty before transitioning. Not men who went through puberty, thank you very much.

Two years of your hormone levels being in the "female range" is required for Olympic sports, AFAIK. I admittedly don't know about this minor US sporting event being discussed though.

Also, why do so many people seem to think that the notion of trans women having "increased skeletal structure" or "increased bone mass" is some advantage. Great, some trans women will have a larger or heavier skeleton to carry around using their oestrogen-fueled muscles. Woohoo! Such an advantage for, say, running or swimming or vaulting...

As for height, I can't wait for people to start advocating a "you must be less than this tall to compete in this sport" check for all women's sport. Cis women can be taller than trans women, and some cis women are much taller than other cis women after all. It's time we crack down on tall women ruining women's sport! /s

 

[Squarehard]

So post some scientific journal studies links. It's a discussion forum.

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What are you even implying with this comment?

Care to elaborate?

 

[Deleted member 20850]

I do actually see how there is an argument for this, in that men have an obvious physical advantage over women. So much so that people have created segregated sports/competetions for women.

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Well, this isn't about men competing against women though.

 

[iWannaHat]

Women who went through the wrong puberty before transitioning. Not men who went through puberty, thank you very much.

Two years of your hormone levels being in the "female range" is required for Olympic sports, AFAIK. I admittedly don't know about this minor US sporting event being discussed though.

Also, why do so many people seem to think that the notion of trans women having "increased skeletal structure" or "increased bone mass" is some advantage. Great, some trans women will have a larger or heavier skeleton to carry around using their oestrogen-fueled muscles. Woohoo! Such an advantage for, say, running or swimming or vaulting...

As for height, I can't wait for people to start advocating a "you must be less than this tall to compete in this sport" check for all women's sport. Cis women can be taller than trans women, and some cis women are much taller than other cis women after all. It's time we crack down on tall women ruining women's sport! /s

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seconded on all parts.

 

[Dhx]

It's an insanely nuanced topic with very few data points at this time. The only study I'm aware of is a very small sample size of marathon swimmers, a sport that does not translate very well to most others.

I've evolved a bit on this over time, myself. Let them compete under the current Olympic standard while we continue to analyze the science. If a rash of trans women begin dominating various sports, we can then continue the conversation.

Regardless, it will never be possible to draw an inflexible line in the sand that is fair to everyone. An arbitrary determination must be made.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

It's high school, just let the kids play.

 

[Deleted member 42055]

Glad the absolute clown takes were dealt with harshly, gj mods

 

[NineConsonants]

Personally I believe that if the athlete has gone through puberty as a male before they transitioned to female that they should not be allowed to compete with biological women its inherently unfair because they now have the skeletal and muscular structure of a man.

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Yup

100% for trans rights. But if people are "competing in a sport" then its not equal for anyone

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There are plenty of cis men that are born with biological advantages over other men that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking an an advantage of men in general that all get just by going through puberty not by the genetic lottery .

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Why are these people being insta-banned for a month? It's sad that I have to worry that me even asking this makes me worried I'll get banned as well. Is this site taking the stand that thinking in any way that trans-women competing in with women opens the door to unfair advantages is necessarily transphobic? Can somebody not have the view that the intention behind separations of genders was meant to be around the practical understanding that male and female physiology is different and that can matter in sports. And is it transphobic to recognize that transition does not always remove these physiological differences? Like, I'll admit that I'm not as familiar as those who are going through these transitions, not anywhere close. But I am under the understanding that transition isn't the same for everybody.


This is entirely separate from whatever the transphobic Trump administration is trying to do and I don't really believe they are coming to anything here with any good intentions. But to me, the insta-month long ban on this is alarming. I am under the perception here that you can expect swift bans here now in a very inconsistent way. Not that I would necessarily want the exact same thing to happen with black issues, but it is clear that there is much more waffling on the moderation on those issues.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

Teen Beats Transgender Competitor Amid Sports Participation Lawsuit

Canton’s Chelsea Mitchell, one of the girls involved in a lawsuit seeking to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls sports, beat out one of her transgender opponents targeted by that lawsuit in a track meet Friday.

www.nbcconnecticut.com

Also Chelsea Mitchell, one of the girls involved in that lawsuit, already beat one of the trans girls she is having a lawsuit against.

If these trans girls have an inherent not surmountable advantage she would have to be banned as well.

 

[Raonak]

Well, this isn't about men competing against women though.

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Yeah youre right.

Transwomen are generally physically stronger/taller than ciswomen.

--

Gender barriers are going away for many things in life. Why cant sports/competetion be the next target?

Gender neutral sports split by weight class seems like the best solution. Its a win win scenario for everyone.

 

[platocplx]

Why are these people being insta-banned for a month? It's sad that I have to worry that me even asking this makes me worried I'll get banned as well. Is this site taking the stand that thinking in any way that trans-women competing in with women opens the door to unfair advantages is necessarily transphobic? Can somebody not have the view that the intention behind separations of genders was meant to be around the practical understanding that male and female physiology is different and that can matter in sports. And is it transphobic to recognize that transition does not always remove these physiological differences? Like, I'll admit that I'm not as familiar as those who are going through these transitions, not anywhere close. But I am under the understanding that transition isn't the same for everybody.


This is entirely separate from whatever the transphobic Trump administration is trying to do and I don't really believe they are coming to anything here with any good intentions. But to me, the insta-month long ban on this is alarming. I am under the perception here that you can expect swift bans here now in a very inconsistent way. Not that I would necessarily want the exact same thing to happen with black issues, but it is clear that there is much more waffling on the moderation on those issues.

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the first commentary was wrong. and those people co-signed it. thats why. you can have a conversation about this without being transphobic. and in this case the reasons for it are just transphobic in general.

 

[Squarehard]

Why are these people being insta-banned for a month? It's sad that I have to worry that me even asking this makes me worried I'll get banned as well. Is this site taking the stand that thinking in any way that trans-women competing in with women opens the door to unfair advantages is necessarily transphobic? Can somebody not have the view that the intention behind separations of genders was meant to be around the practical understanding that male and female physiology is different and that can matter in sports. And is it transphobic to recognize that transition does not always remove these physiological differences? Like, I'll admit that I'm not as familiar as those who are going through these transitions, not anywhere close. But I am under the understanding that transition isn't the same for everybody.


This is entirely separate from whatever the transphobic Trump administration is trying to do and I don't really believe they are coming to anything here with any good intentions. But to me, the insta-month long ban on this is alarming. I am under the perception here that you can expect swift bans here now in a very inconsistent way. Not that I would necessarily want the exact same thing to happen with black issues, but it is clear that there is much more waffling on the moderation on those issues.

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They started with bad faith arguments, and ended with a bad faith argument.

There are other comments in this thread from users that have not been banned, but they provided a more nuance argument from their perspective.

The posters that were banned were to the contrary, and a couple of which were just drive-by agreeing posts that didn't add anything deeper than promoting an ignorant stance that's based on nothing ore than bad faith.

No one is saying you can't have a discussion about this, but transphobic comments and intentions are not debatable.

 

[NineConsonants]

Teen Beats Transgender Competitor Amid Sports Participation Lawsuit

Canton’s Chelsea Mitchell, one of the girls involved in a lawsuit seeking to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls sports, beat out one of her transgender opponents targeted by that lawsuit in a track meet Friday.

www.nbcconnecticut.com

Also Chelsea Mitchell, one of the girls involved in that lawsuit, already beat one of the trans girls she is having a lawsuit against.

If these trans girls have an inherent not surmountable advantage she would have to be banned as well.

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I do think its wrong to portray transgender athletes as if they are always these Adonis-like athletes. There are many body types among the transgender community. So when saying that it is unfair, it is a bad argument to argue that transgender athletes will necessarily take over the competition. I think you will see more acute cases. A trandgender woman could still prefer to not take hormone therapy to the degree that significantly reduces her physiological advantages. It's those fewer cases where there is a stronger merit and people have to ask if our model of separating athletes by gender still works.

 

[Iscariot]

What are you even implying with this comment?

Care to elaborate?

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You seem cagey about a straight forward comment.

A complicated topic like human biology isn't a subject you can reliably expect everyone to have a strong background in, never mind a more esoteric segment like trans athletic performance.

It would seem a discussion forum is a reasonable place to illuminate the science.

 

[Distantmantra]

Considering trans women have been allowed to compete against cis women at the olympics for over 15 years without ever getting an Olympic medal it's really hard to argue they have an inherent Male advantage if they have been on HRT long enough.
Trans women in sports isn't exactly new and none ever made it to the very top.

Also there's a trans man who might compete:

Trans Athlete Chris Mosier on Qualifying for the Olympic Trials (Published 2020)

Mosier is the first transgender athlete to qualify for and participate in an Olympic trials event in the gender with which he identifies.

www.nytimes.com

"Mosier is the first transgender athlete to qualify for and participate in an Olympic trials event in the gender with which he identifies."

At some point arguing about the inherent advantages of trans over cis women in performance is ignorance at best.

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My best friend was friends with Chris growing up. Such an amazing athlete an example of what it really means to be an American.

 

[Deleted member 20850]

I do think its wrong to portray transgender athletes as if they are always these Adonis-like athletes. There are many body types among the transgender community. So when saying that it is unfair, it is a bad argument to argue that transgender athletes will necessarily take over the competition. I think you will see more acute cases. A trandgender woman could still prefer to not take hormone therapy to the degree that significantly reduces her physiological advantages. It's those fewer cases where there is a stronger merit and people have to ask if our model of separating athletes by gender still works.

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Trans women need to be in the target hormone range for a certain time or it would in fact be incredibly unfair.

The target hormone levels should not be for the individual trans woman to decide.

I don't think anyone is arguing a trans woman should be able to come out and just compete without medical transition first.

 

[Dhx]

Gender neutral sports split by weight class seems like the best solution.

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For various reasons that have been exhausted ad infinitum on this forum and another, the biomechanical differences in our bodies make this impossible. Weight is exhibited differently across the hormonal spectrum.

It would spell the end of women being competitive in 99.9% of sport.

 

[JChung55]

This is what I would prefer.

In reference to the OP, this was clearly done out of hatred. And yes, I will be voting for whoever runs against Trump, most likely Biden.

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So you want to completely eliminate women's athletics? By splitting every sport by weight class, you are effectively eliminating women from ever competing in any sport. Look at the difference between men and women when it comes to athletics, its not even close.

 

[Squarehard]

You seem cagey about a straight forward comment.

A complicated topic like human biology isn't a subject you can reliably expect everyone to have a strong background in, never mind a more esoteric segment like trans athletic performance.

It would seem a discussion forum is a reasonable place to illuminate the science.

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As I've already mentioned in the posters who were banned, which is who I was referring to, they never made those comments in good faith, and it wasn't a discussion they intended to have in good faith and was apparent.

There have been other comments in this thread that have had valid discussion points on this topic, and done so appropriately.

No one is saying we can't have a discussion, but those particular posters were not trying to.

If you felt I was attacking you in some way, I wasn't. I simply just wanted to know what you were implying because the original post was vague, which is why I asked you to clarify.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Kyra]

Sorry LGBT community Biden has a stutter.

 

[NineConsonants]

So you want to completely eliminate women's athletics? By splitting every sport by weight class, you are effectively eliminating women from ever competing in any sport. Look at the difference between men and women when it comes to athletics, its not even close.

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I was thinking of weight classes with no gender differences, but I suppose men tend to have the physical advantage on women at the same weight. But is that the case if both are athletes? I know men tend to have much more muscle mass and less body fat, but how is that with professional athletes? Maybe allow women to have a more lenient range on weight per class?

 

[Slaythe]

Yeah youre right.

Transwomen are generally physically stronger/taller than ciswomen.

--

Gender barriers are going away for many things in life. Why cant sports/competetion be the next target?

Gender neutral sports split by weight class seems like the best solution. Its a win win scenario for everyone.

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Weight repartition isnt the same between men and women so having unified sports by weight class would be a disaster.