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This is the truth - hidden cameras in UK dairy farms expose what supporting dairy products really means
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
It is because I don't project human experience onto non-human animals.
OP
OP
I truly believe that it is. And that you can't even see that that is what is happening. So we are at an impasse.
There is no 100 percent ethical consumption under capitalism, period. Some products are more ethical than others, and some are less, but you can't go and say something this absolute unless you're willing to apply it to literally every other produced good in existence.
Now, obviously, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive our hardest to consume as ethically as we can. In fact, the most important thing is that we all consume LESS, period. That's the only way we won't just save our society, but our entire planet. But guilt tripping people to the extent that the OP is rather... hypocritical, in my view.
I mean, the OP is concerned with with animal welfare, but most of the products sold in the US, UK, etc, are produced by humans working in similarly brutal conditions. Since the OP clearly isn't living out in a wood cabin in the middle of nowhere only using goods they produced themselves.... by their own definition, they are guilty of supporting all the worst parts of every industry they purchase from. Every last one of them. Is the OP willing to admit that they are guilty of this? Because if not, they have no leg to stand on.
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OP
Then you're in denial of all the evidence, data, studies, etc.. imo. There is far more going on here than projection.
I personally think so... but I've found tea to be brutally subjective here. This is the one milk I've found that has convinced more people than any other, though.
High disagree, I'd rather have a machine that shake trees instead of a bunch of exploited immigrants picking up my apples.
High disagree there too, you are still breeding animals just for consumption, keeping them artificially pregnant, killing the male because they don't produce milk, killing them early when their yield reduces.
We can both agree that local is usually better. The ethical part is a scam, it might be better than highly industrialized meat/dairy/poultry but it's still shitty.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. :)
And thank you for posting this thread. It's convinced me to become vegan.
OP
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I know it.
Please read the thread before you ask questions like this <3
We had bulls that would do the impregnating naturally and calves weren't taken away.
Quite often calf's were hand fed with a bottle and bucket if they were abandoned at birth. Cows are just animals not human, if they give birth and they don't like the calf or they sense something is wrong they just won't feed it and let it die.
I never said we ran a dairy, we ran a small farm mostly selling fruit and veg with sone meat sales.
Don't let the internet blind you, go out and make your own decision if you care so much and let that be how you live not me.
True, I suppose. But one could also call it whataboutism.
Obviously those things should improve also.
If you accidentally step on your cat's tail and it goes YEEOOOWWWLL, what do you think is happening? Pain and suffering is very obviously not limited to humans.
And their pain doesn't have to be the same as ours in order to be real. Right? I don't understand what your point is.
I'll also chime in that I've been vegetarian for over a year now because of new information that swayed me, and this thread is actually pushing me to go full vegan. So thanks for that.
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OP
<3
<3
I really wish you both the best luck. It can be difficult, but there are so many delicious vegan alternatives and recipes out there that, once you've adjusted, you will not be lacking for delicious foods to eat. And more and more places are offering vegan choices to eat out.
If you ever need any recommendations my PMs are open.
It is obvious they experience pain. It is not obvious that they have the consciousness necessary to experience pain in any way similar to humans do.
The same way we produce our fruits and vegetables? Just keep improving on it.
If you are asking for meat/diary/poultry, then I'm not, I want us to stop exploiting them if we don't need them.
It is not really. It is just relevant to the discussion.
I have already stated that I do not eat beef or pork (or mammals at all really those are just the big 2 that are pretty widely available where I live) and that I own pets that I love (and I would feel terrible if I stepped on one of my cat's tails and apologize and give it treats).
Congrats! There's a whole world out there to discover and research. It's also a great time now with Veganuary happening.
Take your time, I personally prefer hard and fast rules, like I'm 100% cutting beef and dairy, then poultry, then fish, etc.
But the discussion is "don't hurt things you don't need to hurt". You're the one bringing up human emotions, like it doesn't count unless a cow is laying awake at night thinking "they took my calf. He was going to be a doctor".
Well the other subjects are coffee preferences and "are almonds evil?"
Why do you give your cat treats after you step on its tail if you don't believe it experiences complex emotions from the pain?
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Because I, like most other humans, project human experience on to non-human animals.
Then of course. Like who is going to disagree with that. Discussion over. Only psychopaths would disagree with that.
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Pretty sure if your OP was "I don't think we should hurt things unnecessarily". It would not have generated 11 pages of discussion.
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You're being overly pedantic, if you can't see what we mean there's no helping here.
No one HAS to drink alcohol either.....and that fucks up your liver, and causes all sorts of cancer.
Dairy forms part of balanced and healthy diet
OP
OP
You can have a balance and healthy diet without it , same as meat, easily.
I don't actually drink alcohol. A waste of precious calories I'd rather put towards food.
The irony is thick in this one.
You're the one who is trying to boil down very complicated subjects (food production, ethics of killing animals, veganism) into a neat little package that supports your view. You are simplifying the argument to "we should not hurt things unnecessarily" to make anyone who disagrees with you seem like the bad guy. My point is that things are not that simple and that anyone that chooses to consume meat it not evil despite what you may want people to believe.
the ironic part about statements like these in threads like these is you come off as the defensive, preachy one
OP
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No, I was saying that was the core of the debate because it actually is
No one said anything about people eating meat being evil.
<3
Good luck, the journey is long but well worth it. If you get into cooking there are so many delicious things for you to discover!
As someone who went mostly vegetarian sort of by accident(went vegetarian for a while because I liked some recipes, tried eating meat again, felt sick because I hadn't eaten meat in forever, then stayed vegetarian out of laziness)...question:
Is it just me who genuinely prefers almond milk to regular milk? Like I actively prefer the taste. Which is unrelated to being mostly vegetarian, I now realize, but I'm committed to that opening so I'm sticking with it.
Is it just me who genuinely prefers almond milk to regular milk? Like I actively prefer the taste. Which is unrelated to being mostly vegetarian, I now realize, but I'm committed to that opening so I'm sticking with it.
Once your tastebuds adjust, I wouldn't consider it weird at all to prefer the non-dairy milk to dairy. Though I do think there are some cooking recipes that are a lot worse with certain non-dairy (don't do custard with soy milk, for example).
Also, if you get used to non-dairy like I have, if you ever do have a small glass of Vitamin-D it tastes like the most decadent stuff ever.
If your only concern is animal rights, yes. If you are worried about your carbon footprint, you should probably look into how resource intensive almond cultivation is.
I vastly prefer almond milk to cow milk, taste wise. I can't even remember the last time I actually drank a glass of cow milk.
So many farmers are, greedy, subsidy supported, often violent, scum of the earth, pieces of shit, as this film shows, and basically just criminals..... I live in rural Devon and some of these arseholes spend their life moaning about how little they earn, while driving around in 100k Range Rovers and treating their livestock badly. I've seen nothing as bad as this vid, but I've seen things that disturb that's for sure...... I hope BREXIT and the withdraw of vast EU subsidies makes the worst of these evil cunts go to the wall, but no doubt the fucking Tories will bail them out, as they all tend to be Tory voters. My family and I are part of the problem though, as we use dairy, although organic, but I'm sure this sort of thing goes on there too. It must be said not all farmers are bad, and many treat their livestock very well, but there are far too many who don't. If you can, do your best to not support this industry.
Hmm. That was hard to watch.
Sorry, I already reduced beef intake by about 90%, but due to climate reasons. I draw the line at Milk. I do refer to https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/dairy/ for milk purchases though.
You know what sucks though, the GOOD farms actually use more land and water to keep their cows happy, also contributing towards climate change. So brutally efficient and animal-abusing practices are actually better at keeping emissions/resource usage down as long as demand stays constant.
Sometimes raising awareness is the best you can do. Let the people figure out how much it actually means to them.
Sorry, I already reduced beef intake by about 90%, but due to climate reasons. I draw the line at Milk. I do refer to https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/dairy/ for milk purchases though.
You know what sucks though, the GOOD farms actually use more land and water to keep their cows happy, also contributing towards climate change. So brutally efficient and animal-abusing practices are actually better at keeping emissions/resource usage down as long as demand stays constant.
Sometimes raising awareness is the best you can do. Let the people figure out how much it actually means to them.
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Arnold hates cows milk, likes almond milk.
The key is to support smaller farms/family farms that dont deal in massive quantities. Alot of the abuses in the video are there thanks to industrialization of the food industry and profit margins over all else. When you start thinking about how many cows you can stack in a small space to make the most money is how you run into these problems. Smaller farms might cost a little more, but the animals receive a much better quality of life in general, spending their days grazing and being well cared for in larger open fields, as opposed to factory farm animals being subjected to inhumane and disrepectful conditions.