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This fetishized in-game ad from Cyberpunk 2077 raises some questions about how the game may depict LGBT (NSFW) [See Staff Post Before Posting]
- Thread starter Deleted member 3093
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Okay; this got me. It took me a second to see what you guys were talking about but wow.
I'll reserve my judgment once the game is out then if this mean literally nothing.
i can't imagine what a group that rules don't apply to would look like
This keeps happening, and no amount of tokenism is going to undo the harmful behavior and apathy shown by CDPR as a whole.
I'm honestly not sure of the correlation you're trying to make.
No problem, I was the one that should try to get the context before posting.
It just stroke me in a wrong way when someone that is close to me and its part of the LGBT community made it look like something good and reading here I only saw negative posts.
In the end the important thing is to look for information before making assumptions so Im glad everyone here educated me on the subject, gave me a new perspective into this process of evolution that I mentioned in my first post.
I guess I tend to separate marketing from actual in-game writing. A lot of CDPR issues have been marketing, which while unforgivable doesn't necessarily point to the game writing itself being horrendous. While not perfect, I thought they dealt with some heady topics in the Witcher games adequately. The marketing team pulling out a screenshot like this is not a good look, I admit, because it needs contextual explanation prior to being revealed, but it doesn't necessarily mean there will not be actual trans representation in the game that's well done. Hell we don't even really know if it's CDPR that pulled it or NVIDIA anyway. Obviously I would think CDPR would have to approve everything, but again that approval likely wouldn't be the in-game writers.
I know a lot of people cannot separate marketing from in-game writing, and that's fine. Hell that's marketing's fucking job is to be what you think of when you think of the game. So yeah I definitely don't blame you for it.
As I said, I hope there's more to the writing, because if there isn't then the game itself fails because this should be a thematic pillar in the universe. If they can't do this then they can't really do anything.
Insulting a group for inflicting pain upon others is not the same as insulting a group which pain is being inflicted upon.
It is not hypocritical to oppose an oppressive group while not opposing a persecuted group, but that is the false equivalence you are creating.
Your thought process is likely that by saying "straight males" the person is stereotyping a group and saying that all straight males are bad, and you think you're opposing all examples of "stereotyping a group", but the reality is that everyone who says "ugh straight/white/rich/whatever" is obviously referring specifically to those who use their privilege for oppression. There is obvious persecution of one group by another, so we need to be able to call it out -- when you say you can't generalize oppressive groups as if it's just as bad as generalizing oppressed groups, you're missing the forest for the trees.
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User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing concerns of transphobia in sensitive thread
Wolfenstein has swastika, are the devs glorifying Hitler? No!
Are those kind of ads realistic to appear in a cyberpunk setting? Yes! Why should we measure what's right or wrong in a dystopian future setting by today's standards? That's ridiculous in my eyes
Are those kind of ads realistic to appear in a cyberpunk setting? Yes! Why should we measure what's right or wrong in a dystopian future setting by today's standards? That's ridiculous in my eyes
When I first saw that ad I thought it was advertising skin changing because chrome as a root word refers to exterior surface and the woman has wildly different skin tones over her body.
But because the manticure sounds so similar to manticore it could also be a gender changing potion but I doubt it.
Oh please
I'm not going to feel bad for calling out douche bags who have decided to make my life difficult. It's fact and I am tired of the straight males on this site and how they throw out dismissive attitudes because it doesn't concern them but want to play the victims when people come after them.
Not gonna lie, I don't hate it (when taken out of context of all the earlier shit they did). I don't find the content of the poster inherently bad, if a trans woman made such content I'd be like "that's fuckin rad."
Rather have "trans woman are sexy" content than "trans woman are a disgusting joke" content. ...It's something! Still not buying this game though.
(Cis people, don't quote this post and say "See she doesn't hate it! You're just sensitive!!" I can 100% see why this would irk some people, we're not a hivemind, etc etc)
Rather have "trans woman are sexy" content than "trans woman are a disgusting joke" content. ...It's something! Still not buying this game though.
(Cis people, don't quote this post and say "See she doesn't hate it! You're just sensitive!!" I can 100% see why this would irk some people, we're not a hivemind, etc etc)
That's ignoring the meta context though. While it can be handled well in the full game, at this point in time you really can't separate this from CDPR's past.
Well, I am sorry for those hateful idiots that make your life difficult. I don't wish to be one of those people.
I didn't mean to appear dismissive of trans and gay issues.
That's a different matter because Wolfenstein is directly commenting on nazism. If a game just had swastikas everywhere and said nothing about it, it would be at least weird.
To be fair, we don't know if the game has anything positive to say on this matter yet, but a common thing between people criticizing this is that they mention CDPR's history handling this. They're not condemning the game just because of this ad.
My post from the other Cyberpunk thread concerning the stereotyping of specific groups that I also think could apply to this:
My problem with the pre-release footage is that it's hard to distinguish between the tones CDPR are trying to pull off. So when you start to see problematic shit, it's difficult to parse through what they deem to be commentary on the Cyberpunk genre ( i.e. a look at social issues, others have mentioned themes like transhumanism) and what they deem to be edgy and cool. When this company is known for some other concerning things, it's going to get increasingly muddy as to what they as creators are endorsing and what they are trying to say as criticism for the window dressing of this world.
For this instance, it's really unclear what the context surrounding the ad is. Is it commentary on how mega corps would use the blurred lines of sexuality to sell products, using age old marketing of 'sex sells', or is merely just an ignorant joke? Hopefully the former but fearing the latter.
My problem with the pre-release footage is that it's hard to distinguish between the tones CDPR are trying to pull off. So when you start to see problematic shit, it's difficult to parse through what they deem to be commentary on the Cyberpunk genre ( i.e. a look at social issues, others have mentioned themes like transhumanism) and what they deem to be edgy and cool. When this company is known for some other concerning things, it's going to get increasingly muddy as to what they as creators are endorsing and what they are trying to say as criticism for the window dressing of this world.
For this instance, it's really unclear what the context surrounding the ad is. Is it commentary on how mega corps would use the blurred lines of sexuality to sell products, using age old marketing of 'sex sells', or is merely just an ignorant joke? Hopefully the former but fearing the latter.
Applying "observable trends" to stereotypes can quickly become problematic.
Are we just referring to their GoG twitter posts at this point?
I don't think I'm convinced yet. Fetishisation, especially concerning gender representation, is a well-worn trope of Cyberpunk settings. It should really have been expected from the beginning.
I'm kind of split on how to judge it. On the one hand, I get the fact that your average audience lacks the critical thinking ability to divorce a representation like this from reality. On the other hand, Cyberpunk is a self-assuredly dystopian setting - High-tech, low life etc etc. Its purpose is to explore the limits of exploitation.
From my perspective it seemed like he was saying lgbt people are really sensitive. The point i was making is that everyone, not just lgbt, can be really sensitive while also saying that this was not one of those times. That way no one will try and twist my words in a snarky response.
I still think that is giving them too much credit. It's a company. An organization. If they can't talk to each other and make their position clear on real world issues (marketing is connected to the real world, and the writing is representative of the real world), then their incompetence at this internal communication should not be excused. It's not like The Witcher 3 was written by Roxane Gay.
Nothing that CDPR ever made has convinced me that they can make anything more than a crunch-enabled edgy blockbuster aimed at hungry alienated eyes and the most insecure channers. But with great graphics.
For what it's worth, which probably won't be much to many... as a straight white male seeing this ad, nothing to me signified anything negative towards the trans community.
They have talked about the game exploring body modification and transhumanism, and how that is commonplace in the world. To me, that being on an advertisement signifies that people are open and accepting of others regardless of their outward appearances/genders/sexualities/what have you. It didnt feel like (to me) it was making a joke at the expense of the character on the ad, or demonizing them for their body. The size and prominent display of the penis to me shows that this person is completely comfortable in their body, and that body modification of sexual body parts is probably pretty common in this world (as it already is in our world, with breast enlargements and reductions, butt implants, circumcision, etc)
That said, I understand the concern from others in this thread (especially with some of the things on social media previously), and I want to be clear I am not using my opinion as a means to silence yours. I just think in the context of this world that they have built, this ad didn't feel out of place to me or like it was taking a cheap shot/making fun of/demonizing anyone. But again, I totally respect your feelings if you did feel the opposite
They have talked about the game exploring body modification and transhumanism, and how that is commonplace in the world. To me, that being on an advertisement signifies that people are open and accepting of others regardless of their outward appearances/genders/sexualities/what have you. It didnt feel like (to me) it was making a joke at the expense of the character on the ad, or demonizing them for their body. The size and prominent display of the penis to me shows that this person is completely comfortable in their body, and that body modification of sexual body parts is probably pretty common in this world (as it already is in our world, with breast enlargements and reductions, butt implants, circumcision, etc)
That said, I understand the concern from others in this thread (especially with some of the things on social media previously), and I want to be clear I am not using my opinion as a means to silence yours. I just think in the context of this world that they have built, this ad didn't feel out of place to me or like it was taking a cheap shot/making fun of/demonizing anyone. But again, I totally respect your feelings if you did feel the opposite
And they don't work that way.
(Seriously, where are the jewels?)
That was my thought process and I apologise. Stereotyping is dangerous and lazy no matter who it's aimed at. Looking back it was a rash post mindlessly posted.
The internet destroyed any notion of context.
Well that and bigotry.
How many times this week has your existence been questioned because you were straight? How many times was it in the news that a straight person was beheaded or pushed off a building for being straight?
Once again, the issue here is that many don't trust CDPR with exploring those themes considering their history with transphobia.
You're absolutely right. And I don't see how people think it's okay (or efficient) to fight discrimination with more discrimination. It's just stupid. If we want a equal society, respect and tolerance must be universal.
I'm of the mind that if games are trying to depict a realistic world, in the lore sense, they shouldn't shy away from this stuff even if it's uncomfortable for a lot of people. This seems on brand in the world, just like a shit head saying "cocksucker" in one of the trailers. Hey that guy sucks because that's his personality.
I will admit I'm an ignorant straight white male and don't see a lot of issue with this personally. I respect those who do though and if there's enough outrage I'll support it if it makes people that uncomfortable that they need to change it or whatever.
I will admit I'm an ignorant straight white male and don't see a lot of issue with this personally. I respect those who do though and if there's enough outrage I'll support it if it makes people that uncomfortable that they need to change it or whatever.
Marketing departments can be pretty hilariously disconnected from others in the company. A lot of times it's outsourced and really doesn't touch the actual creatives making the product.
And I suppose if that's how you see CDPR then I don't blame you. There's no game the game won't be absolute shit for you. I found the writing on Witcher 3 to be a head better than most other games. Not perfect, mind you, but in the gaming landscape really good. I really don't see how W3 was made for the most insecure channers, so I'd be interested to see how or why it was to you.
Indeed, at this point we :
- cannot praise CDPR for an accurate and tasteful representation of a tasteless future.
- condemn CDPR for a shitty hot-take bro-fantasy lol dingdongs lololol rofl check out this transdong lol tone-deafness.
- blindly praise the game based on what has been shown so far.
- blindly condemn the game solely based on CDPRs actions and statements in the past.
So instead might we have a constructive discussion based on might-be scenarios? This thread is kinda getting derailed by users who aren't able to think in scenarios such as "Let's ASSUME CDPR's past actions are representative of the tone in cyberpunk". Or: "Let's ASSUME this ad makes a ton of sense within the game world." Because without them we can't really have a discussion because we're missing all of the context... But it's a fascinating discussion regardless, about a company making a media product about a bullshit society for a society that is slowly but surely getting fed up with bullshit. In a weird sense, this whole thread here is futuristic as fuck.
Discriminating against oppressors is not the same as discriminating against the oppressed. Especially when the "discrimination" is telling them not to include offensive content about oppressed people.
It's more the stereotyping of straight males all being ignorant to causes like trans issues.
I don't like any sort of stereotyping really and don't find it conducive to producing positive discussions surrounding said issues.
"White straight men" is not the opressor. Transphobics, homophobics, racists and other intolerant groups are.
Yeah man, lbtq people should bridge the gap and stop being annoyed toward ignorant cis white people.
this is sarcasm, just to be sure.
The advertisement frames the body on display as "mixing it up." Were this kind of configuration normalized, "mixing it up" would make as much sense applied to the model's genitals as it would some dude today posing for a similar ad wearing a green shirt and blue jeans. The message implies abnormality, exoticism, and fetish. And since the only feature that appears to distinguish the model from any number of women you see in the setting is her prominent erect penis in center frame, it's pretty clear that that feature is the focus of the advert's fascination. That's what the artist depicts as abnormal, "mixed up;" desireable as an erotic novelty but not respected as authentic or legitimate.
No, because not all transphobics + homophobes + racists have the same amount of power in this country. Almost all groups are ignorant to trans issues. Straight males are the most significant oppressors of those communities though, and are also in the best position to change that, so they're the ones that get called out.
It's also totally ignoring that being annoyed at a group that is oppressing you is normal, while being annoyed at a group doing nothing to you is not. Why this difference doesn't matter to you, that's for you to figure out.
How about we get to an equal society first? Then we can discuss niceties. The currently oppressed are always going to have a negative opinion about oppressors. This isn't surprising, and them succumbing to decorum isn't going to get them equality any fucking faster. In fact history teaches us the opposite.
The issue is not the ad alone, that doesn't exist in a vacuum so don't pretend it does.
The issue is this ad is from a company who has proven to make dismissive and even transphobic comments with the apology of "sorry if you were offended".
In this context, surely you can see the issue?
This is not the first time something like this has happened. And yet the heads of the company still outsource to the same guys? That tells me a lot.
The writing in The Witcher 3 was good, in terms of disconnected power fantasy. If we start talking about representation of real world problems, it's a different story. One thing is writing fiction as if the real world didn't exist. Just pure fun and escapism.
Writing about gender issues, identity, politics and stuff that involves commenting on real problems? Not sure about that. Not with what was shown until now. If the straight white protagonism and the trans objectification are what they want us to expect from this game, then I know who they are targeting.
Firstly, the observation has an actual tangible basis in reality unlike the sort of lgbtq+ stereotypes you see, and second generalizing about a group that is in no way marginalized is like totally different
Lmao so we cant criticize this because its fantasy, sure okay.
That ridiculous comparison to Hitler is so braindead stupid as well, read what you just wrote, goddamn.
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