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DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
I saw a recent tweet on this and it sums up my thoughts
https://twitter.com/Danny8bit/status/1277286234398711808

Look, we all know that Sonic taking itself seriously ends in trainwrecks like Shadow, 06, and maybe Forces if done badly, but in the right hands, it's amazing. Look at IDW Sonic


EST-yRyWsAAcCtx


It's ok to have serious and character driven stories with emotional moments instead of self aware or bad humour every five seconds(Man I hope Pontac are gone)
 

Krooner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
669
I would say your example works because it's subversive. I don't think Sonic could hold it tonally full time. It'd become trite pretty quickly.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
The U.K. Sonic The Comic took itself seriously a fair bit and it was great. It had a whole arc where Robotnik used the chaos emeralds to reshape reality just to fuck with Sonic and it was dark and great.
 

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,090
Heck yeah. If anything, I think the fact that Sonic & Friends are so well known at this point would only help serious stuff land that much more effectively.

I would say your example works because it's subversive. I don't think Sonic could hold it tonally full time. It'd become trite pretty quickly.

I think this is true too though. There needs to be a balance, and not simply a 50/50 one. For anybody who's watched Gintama, I think it would work in the same way that series works. 90% of it is just low-brow slapstick humor, but every now and then they do some really incredible drama. That drama only works as well as it does because of all the time you spend goofing off with the characters.
 

Deleted member 5334

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
Sonic X during 53 through 78, honestly, while can be a little ridiculous, has some extremely sincere moments, really disturbing and difficult content that it covers, and actually treats it incredibly seriously. The whole episode dealing with Molly on Episode 68, is probably one of the most disheartening and depressing stories in the franchise, given what happens throughout the episode, and what Molly ends up doing at the end of the episode in response.

Really, the whole Metarex arc of Sonic X has some of the strongest writing in the series, which was lead by Kiyoko Yoshimura, who also wrote several of the Sonic games (including Sonic Unleashed). I absolutely get that the first year (1 - 52) has serious issues, but the second series/season is really strong overall. Almost wish she'd done all the first year's worth of episodes, but we did get some good episodes out of it (the story about what happened on Arc, which the games never quite covered outside of the Japanese guides, the whole episode centering around Chris with Eggman's speech to him, and 51 in particular, analyzing Sonic and Chris's relationship at a much more deeper level and explaining why the two had the relationship they did, which, ironically, is the strongest aspect of Series 1 despite I know the fandom's general distaste for Chris).

Sonic Forces is a bit odd. I think the writing is "fine" per-say, but it feels disjointed, due to the development issues (the game's engine had a good healthy development time, but the problem is it feels the writing, while good on paper in theory, had to be hastily put together in the game itself, as reportedly the actual core development was within a year and it really shows). It was also the first time the game had been written in Japan since Sonic Unleashed, as prior to this, English writers took over the script writing process, which resulted in different characterizations that just felt odd to me at times (not that they were bad, but they worked better in the Sonic Boom personalities, since it distance itself from the Japanese Sonic, where the English written Japanese Sonic games seem some sort of weird hybrid that just doesn't feel right to me).

That said, yes, Sonic absolutely can work as a serious project and series. We have examples of it working, even if it's intermixed with some issues. But Sonic as a serious character can absolutely work. I just think we need the write amount of time for the team to be able to do so and not having it rushed out the door, per-usual.
 

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,820
Orlando, FL
I've always thought that the tone of Sonic Adventure 1 and Sonic Unleashed felt just right enough for the series.

The tones of games like Sonic Colors (fine for the time it was released, but considering what came afterwards...) and Shadow the Hedgehog represent two polarizing extremes that pretty much made their respective games have plots you just don't care about. There is a way to make people care about what's happening in these games; heck, it's been done before in this series, most notably in spin-offs like Sonic Battle and even freaking Sonic Chronicles (bad game, terrible music, but the plot was at least OK and the character writing was actually pretty stellar).
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,217
Why would you use Sonic as a vehicle for that though? Almost anything else would work better for whatever it is you want to say. If the idea is to make it more like Dragon Ball/shonen like the tweet says, I don't see the added value of Sonic monologueing before every boss fight and then delivering some sharp commentary on what it means to be a hero as he lands the final blow. Hypothetically, of course it could be fine, but I really think they should focus on making the (3D) games play well before expanding into elaborate stories.
 
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Nov 3, 2017
650
When I see "serious" Sonic content, I always imagine Nintendo kickstarting a Mario animation series where Mario and Luigi fight to unionize the italian plumbers against the background of rising fascism.

But then the writers realize that these are two videogame characters jumping on mushrooms and drop the whole idea. For the good of humanity.
 
Oct 27, 2017
683
Execution is everything. I'd argue Mario takes itself seriously in both Galaxy and Odyssey but knows that "taking itself seriously" doesn't have a specific meaning, just finding a tone that is respectful and suitable to itself and expressing itself within that tone.
 

Bradford

terminus est
Member
Aug 12, 2018
5,423
sure but what does sonic successfully taking itself seriously look like

I don't think a single comic page holds the narrative weight of a multi-hour, serious adventure
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,866
I sometimes find this gif can be a little obnoxious seeming but, it does match how I feel so..


Serious Sonic gets way too much of a bad wrap. Both by because now everyone seems to think it's automatically terrible, and also because it's constantly memed on. The memes can be funny, but for people to just cast it all aside can be very frustrating.

Yes, this is speaking as someone who got into the series from Sonica Adventure 2, so no surprise there.
 

Deleted member 26156

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,579
Sonic could do pretty much anything it wanted to if the games had good direction and Sonic Team was well-run, but they aren't. I agree that there's nothing wrong with Sonic being a bit more on the serious side, but multiple times now, they've gone so far over the edge (Shadow, 06, and Forces), its clear they can't make serious Sonic work well.

I mean really now, the fact they treated Infinite completely seriously is quite possibly the most tone-deaf and hilarious thing they've done.

I personally prefer the more laid back nature with a small bit of edge, like the classic games and Mania do, and I think Adventure pulls that off better than most other Sonic games (whether it be the edginess of 06 & Forces, Saturday morning cartoon vibes of Colors & Lost World, or the complete lack of character of Generations), even if its not perfect.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,480
Do I need context or something for that comic? That strip is kinda just there. Confused as to why it's the given example

I mean I don't disagree because I saw it done ok in the old fleetway comic.
 

Shigs

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,611
Los Angeles
Ian Flynn has proven to be a great writer who can go from light-hearted to dark without ruining the overall tone of what makes Sonic enjoyable. Which is why I wish they'd put him on the games. Pontac and Graff have been the main series writers since Sonic Colors and they've gone from "pretty good" to downright awful. Before Sonic, Pontac and Graff were the writing team behind "Happy Tree Friends". The cartoon where cute critters died in horribly gory ways.

Sonic Colors story was actually pretty good. It was lighthearted through most of it until Sonic and Tails realize that the captured wisps aren't just enslaved, but the energy Eggman's been using from them is slowly killing them, which leads to Sonic taking things seriously and stopping Eggman's scheme. Tails is shown as confident and a bit more independent of Sonic and Eggman's PDA's are hilarious.

Sonic Generations plot wasn't great but was serviceable enough since all it needed was to tie-in all these levels from different eras and that's it. The story itself wasn't epic and didn't need to be.

Lost World went straight to hell. I mean, it opens with Sonic failing to nab a container of critters Eggman drops. Sonic and Tail follow it toa land in the sky called the Lost Hex. Somehow, the container managed to land on the ground without all the critters inside being dead. They then have to team up with Eggman to fight the most generic villains that are still part of the games and comics, the Deadly Six. I hate them. Also, this is where Pontac and Graff start to ruin Tails. He becomes egotistical and jealous of Sonic for no reason.

Sonic Forces completely ruins Tails by making him a coward who can't function without Sonic around. Classic Sonic is ret-conned into being from another dimension for no reason. Sonic has been "tortured for months" on a space station but is seen equipping at (not) Zavok like nothing's happened. It's too dark for its own good and some of the dramatic lines are so bad, you can't help but laugh. Basically, Pontac and Graff can't do "dark and edgy" to save their lives.

Do I need context or something for that comic? That strip is kinda just there. Confused as to why it's the given example

I mean I don't disagree because I saw it done ok in the old fleetway comic.

Basically, the IDW Sonic is a new continuity from the Archie ones that takes place right after the events of Sonic Forces. Eggman has been defeated and had lost his memory. He was eventually found by the Chaotix making and fixing the toys in a small village where he was called "Mr. Tinker". He was happy making toys and genuinely became a good person. Shadow found him and tried to kill him, but Sonic stopped him because he believed that since Eggman lost his memory, he was a new person that couldn't be killed for his past actions.

A platypus mad scientist by the name of Dr. Starlight, who was a big Stan of Eggman, found him, kidnapped him and gave him his memories back. Eggman repaid Sonic kindness by unleashing a deadly, metal virus that turns everyone it touches into mindless robot zombies or "Zombots". The virus was still in the experimental phase so even Eggman can't control the Zombots. Sonic's infected but his speed holds the infection back. He has to keep running or he's a mindless zombot.

This one's darker than most as it's taken a lot of the heroes. Vector, Charmy, Shadow, and new favorite, Tangle.Ian is putting Cream the rabbit through hell as she was originally helping cheer up the survivors, and then she lost her two chaos, her mother, and is now infected too.

Despite such a dark storyline, there are still some funny moments and plenty of action.

Yes, I know the irony of a Sonic comic taking place in a pandemic, but this story started last year and is wrapping up.
 
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Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
There's nothing wrong with giving trivial source material a bit of gravity - as long as you remember that you're making a series about woodland creatures battling a mad scientist and sticking to an appropriate tone for that, there is a lot of scope for taking your storytelling seriously. Flynn's written an awful lot of comics which do exactly that.

The problem comes when you forget that the source material is slight, and you start piling on themes and developments that the series can't bear without overshooting straight into bathos. That's where the shooting and cursing and kissing human women and Knuckles rhapsodising about the horrors of war lives, and it's a mode that has completely swamped the franchise for getting on for three generations now.
 
OP
OP
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,338
Pontaff are awful as they know nothing about the franchise and can't write either a serious or light hearted story
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
There's nothing wrong with giving trivial source material a bit of gravity - as long as you remember that you're making a series about woodland creatures battling a mad scientist and sticking to an appropriate tone for that, there is a lot of scope for taking your storytelling seriously. Flynn's written an awful lot of comics which do exactly that.

The problem comes when you forget that the source material is slight, and you start piling on themes and developments that the series can't bear without overshooting straight into bathos. That's where the shooting and cursing and kissing human women and Knuckles rhapsodising about the horrors of war lives, and it's a mode that has completely swamped the franchise for getting on for three generations now.
The issue with statement i have no issue with the gun or the cursing or talking about war. They did it wrong. Its about perspective. Maybe less damns, maybe no real life weaponry, maybe connect the war line with the plot.

Because there are beloved elements of the franchise that fall out of what you prescribe it to be and thats the fun part. Its about perspective
 

Warszawa

Member
Sep 30, 2018
334
Sonic should be essentially like Mario - a clock reset at the start of every game. His character and world should be an expression of new play mechanics and ideas not a way for somebody to express some college level 'THE POWER OF LOVE' writing.

Their is so much media material on this planet, made by creators, do we really need another cartoon character to have a shoehorned in story with multiple arcs.

More whimsy and brevity please.
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
I mean, you can put him in King Lear, but he is still going to look like a 90s cereal box mascot.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Sonic should be essentially like Mario - a clock reset at the start of every game. His character and world should be an expression of new play mechanics and ideas not a way for somebody to express some college level 'THE POWER OF LOVE' writing.

Their is so much media material on this planet, made by creators, do we really need another cartoon character to have a shoehorned in story with multiple arcs.

More whimsy and brevity please.
What is so awful about Sonic having a story? Most aren't asking for fucking Shakespeare here we'd just like something closer to the comics.

If you're that allergic to plot then skip the cutscenes and move on to the next stage.
I mean, you can put him in King Lear, but he is still going to look like a 90s cereal box mascot.
What is even the point of this post? There's material a lot of Sonic fans consider a good enough story and we'd like to see something like that in the games, what's the problem? Or is this more "cartoons shouldn't try and tell a story" again?
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,223
I disagree a bit with the Mickey Mouse analogy, if you watch the original shorts, they aren't kiddy and rarely self aware, the latter was often Looney Tunes that often had to make light of the craziness that was happening and constantly break the 4th wall. Mickey on the other hand and especially Goofy, in those shorts, most of the weird stuff just happens and is treated as normal which is why always found Disney's Shorts better and funnier.

Plus you had shorts where Mickey was a prison escapy and the like, people forget that Mickey wasn't the nicest of people back in the day.
 

KillstealWolf

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,068
In the original he basically fights against uncontrolled industrialization and rescues animals from deadly robots. He was never a blue ball that ramps up and runs fast.

Yeah even in the base game the Industrialisation = Bad message is baked right into the game with you freeing little animals from robot enemies and as you progress through the game the levels become more factory and mechanical, showing a stark contrast from the whimsi Green Hill to the daunting Scrap Brain at the end.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,168
The moment Sonic spoke, he sealed his fate.
Entrusting his future to a story, the hedgehog clings to a dim hope.
Yes, the cringe is the means by which ALL is revealed.

 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
This. Knuckles is OK though, if they go with the old design.

But yeah, all these furries should shut up and run. Ditch the cringy melodrama.
Yeah fuck all those characters and there fans! Don't actually try and improve anything! CATER TO ME!!!

Edit: This was too aggressive but I'll continue to think these dismissive "don't even bother trying just ditch everything I don't personally care about" posts are annoying. A lot of people do actually like these other characters and just saying "ditch em all" is not constructive and just makes this extra frustrating to talk about because people just keep drinking the "shitty friends" meme koolaid.
 
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NazoNazoXLR

Member
Dec 20, 2019
290
I don't doubt that Sonic can have handle moments of gravitas, any good franchise is flexible enough to manage that

What I am dubious about is whether or not adding said gravitas will do anything to make the games any better. Say a Sonic game comes out that is written as well as a decent family movie but still plays like Sonic Forces. Is that a better game? Why not just make more Sonic multimedia stuff at that point?
 

Mark1

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,006
I still think Adventure 1, 2, Unleashed and Black Knight had the best middle ground for good storytelling in Sonic games.

Not too serious or lighthearted. With a bit more fine tuning this has the potential to be the new norm for Sonic going forward.

Although I enjoy the storytelling in S3K and Mania as well. Would like both to coexist alongside each other.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,773
You know, the Sonic movie wasn't that long ago and was a rousing success. This "Sonic shouldn't talk and should have no story" take is just wrong.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I don't doubt that Sonic can have handle moments of gravitas, any good franchise is flexible enough to manage that

What I am dubious about is whether or not adding said gravitas will do anything to make the games any better. Say a Sonic game comes out that is written as well as a decent family movie but still plays like Sonic Forces. Is that a better game? Why not just make more Sonic multimedia stuff at that point?
I think a lot of Sonic fans like me just want to see them TRY if nothing else. Even if the games have to be mediocre that's no reason the story and characters have to be so.

Like at least take Amy from the comics who actually has a character besides "likes Sonic" something the games forgot after Adventure 2.