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Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
I've been reading a series of biographies by Stephen Kotkin covering Stalin (he has 2 so far, with the third coming this year), and it is so fucking fascinating. This is one of the most interesting and extraordinary people to ever live. There's a lot of criticism of the historical theory of the "Great Man" determining the course of history, but he really was a singular presence that shifted the events of the 20th century towards a direction with ripples we are still feeling to this day.

Not only was he the most important single person in the 20th century, he's also the most misunderstood. People get that he's a bastard, but they have this completely incorrect view of him. The prevalent belief is that he was evil because he was cynical and power hungry and used the noble ideology of socialism to control people, when the truth was that he believed in his convictions and Marxism so strongly and zealously that he was willing to destroy countless lives to see "heaven brought to Earth".

Just a few highlights on Stalin's life:

1. While it's been exaggerated in recent years, Stalin was a bank robber and a pirate in his early years, gathering money for the revolution and made actual prison escapes. Although, he was more of the guy planning the robberies than actually participating in them as some swashbuckling accounts would have it. Unlike Trotsky's (largely incorrect) account of him, Stalin wasn't so much a brute, but a manipulator. He's a person that got ahead by understanding and using people, not purely with violence.

2. The famines his collectivization policies caused and the entire project of forced collectivization wasn't motivated by a genocidal hatred of Ukrainians or was a Machiavellian play to gain more power. It destabilized his regime and lost him the confidence of many of his closest followers, it was an enormous risk with little practical benefit. It was purely done for ideological reasons and was even more extreme than Lenin who allowed markets in the rural areas to avoid this exact thing. To Stalin, it was anathema to have socialism in the cities and markets in the country side so he upended his own nation and partially caused an enormous famine that killed millions against the wishes of everyone that worked for him.

3. The Great Purge is unbelievable. Historians still don't 100% understand it or how it happened or why. Imagine if Hitler killed 90% of his officer corp, the people that worked for him, wiped out the German elite and sent hundreds of thousands of people into prison camps in a cold tundra. Now imagine if he had the SS do this, and then employed a new generation of SS officers to kill off the guys who were originally doing the killing. It's unbelievable, it could never happen, and yet Stalin did that and as it was happening, German spies actually told Hitler this and even he thought it was insane. No one in modern history has ever excercized dictatorial power like that.

4. There was an incident during Stalin's "alliance" with Hitler where he and the Nazis divided up the land in Poland, and Stalin had his men shoot and kill Nazis off land that contained oil. He then sold that oil back to Hitler in exchange for weapons and technology. At first, the pact was hugely beneficial to Stalin, because it had the "capitalists" fighting each other, and his ambition was for them to turn to socialism when they were brought low and ripe for his influence. He didn't understand fascism and Hitler, he could only see him as a "capitalist and an imperialist", he didn't understand the depth of hatred Hitler held for socialism, Russians, and what he called 'Judeo Bolshevism'. Their eventual conflict is the one that was central to WW2.



Here's an interesting video on him during the WW2 and his war with Hitler.

Long story short: All of this material is ripe for a genuinely riveting drama on the life of this man. Not just because it's so interesting, but also because the general public knows so little about probably the most significant figure of the 20th century.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,409
i await the thirsty social media posts for hot joseph stalin
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
User Banned (2 weeks): inflammatory support
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.
well where to start. The Soviets worked with the Nazis to destroy western Europe and in effect helped setup the conditions
necessary for the holocaust.

It's not like Stalin wasn't an anti semite himself. He was purging Jews in the USSR after the war ended.

Your post is disgusting
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,956
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.

Conventional Western historical opinion is that the Soviets were essential in defeating the Nazis. This isn't unimaginable at all, it's a widely held and expressed historical fact across Europe and the Americas. Sure, film and TV from Hollywood or Europe typically focuses on the efforts of the people from the countries making the films, just as films produced in the Soviet Union largely focused on the Russian front.

The liberation of concentration camps was a shared effort among allied powers. The Soviets discovered and liberated most of the Polish concentration camps in the Soviet march across Poland and the Baltics -- notably Auschwitz and Stuthoff among others -- territory that they would later impose authoritarian rule on. The Americans and British (as well as other countries fighting with them), liberated concentration camps to the north and West -- the Americans in Buchenwald, Dachau, Dora, and others; The Brits with Bergen-Belsen and others. This was an allied effort, not some lone liberation by the Soviets. It's further complicated because the Soviet "liberation" of Poland was brutal, with widespread mass rape, torture, deportation, and execution of Poles, both Jewish and non-Jewish: an ethnic cleansing.
 
OP
OP
Goodstyle

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
well where to start. The Soviets worked with the Nazis to destroy western Europe and in effect helped setup the conditions
necessary for the holocaust.

It's not like Stalin wasn't an anti semite himself. He was purging Jews in the USSR after the war ended.

Your post is disgusting

This isn't strictly true either.

The Nazis and the Russians had a non-aggression pact, but they were far from allies. The goal of his decision to let Hitler go to war with Europe was to have capitalists fight each other, not to see Jews eliminated.

Stalin didn't have a particular hatred of Jews, the doctor's plot was more about his paranoia than jew hating. A lot of doctors at the time happened to be Jewish, he wasn't going after them specifically. Anti-semitism was a thing you could be reported and imprisoned for in Stalinist Russia.

And it's objectively true that Stalin and Russia did more to crush the Nazis than any other party in WW2.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
This isn't strictly true either.

The Nazis and the Russians had a non-aggression pact, but they were far from allies. The goal of his decision to let Hitler go to war with Europe was to have capitalists fight each other, not to see Jews eliminated.

Stalin didn't have a particular hatred of Jews, the doctor's plot was more about his paranoia than any particular hatred towards Jewish people. Anti-semitism was a thing you could be reported and imprisoned for in Stalinist Russia.

And it's objectively true that Stalin and Russia did more to crush the Nazis than any other party in WW2.
Tell that to the poles. The secrets clauses of the NAP explicitly divided up Poland. The invasion of Poland is one candidate date for the start of WW2 in Europe.l
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,959
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.

Wtf is this post? You can look at Stalin with nuance, the OP is a good example of that. That doesn't mean you should defend him.

Yeah, the role of the Red Army in defeating the nazis gets overlooked and the importance of d-day exaggerated. The Soviets still established dictatorships in the places they conquered, and that's probably the number one reason why they're not viewed as liberators.

Saying Stalin was evil doesn't say anything about someone's view alternatives to capitalism. Unchecked capitalism is terrible, that doesn't mean Stalinism wasn't a hundred times worse
 
OP
OP
Goodstyle

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
Tell that to the poles. The secrets clauses of the NAP explicitly divided up Poland. The invasion of Poland is one candidate date for the start of WW2 in Europe.l
Oh, I agree with you on that. Kotkin would too. Stalin didn't understand the Nazis or what Hitler actually was. He thought it was another capitalist/Imperialist conflict, and when he actually sat down to read Mein Kampf, he couldn't understand it outside of his class political framework.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
well where to start. The Soviets worked with the Nazis to destroy western Europe and in effect helped setup the conditions
necessary for the holocaust.

It's not like Stalin wasn't an anti semite himself. He was purging Jews in the USSR after the war ended.

Your post is disgusting
Posts like this are exactly what I was talking about. It is simply unimaginable for these people to consider the Russians as anything but villains.

In reality, it took the US and the Western allies nearly a year to confront their denial of what Germany was doing to the Jews even with the Russians providing proof. Nearly all Jews saved from the camps were liberated by Russian forces.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Liberation of Nazi Camps

The liberation of concentration camps toward the end of the Holocaust revealed unspeakable conditions. Learn about liberators and what they confronted.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
1

Post like this are exactly what I was talking about. It is simply unimaginable for these people to consider the Russians as anything but villains.

In reality, it took the US and the Western allies nearly a year to confront their denial of what Germany was doing to the Jews even with the Russians providing proof. Nearly all Jews saved from the camps were liberated by Russian forces.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Liberation of Nazi Camps

The liberation of concentration camps toward the end of the Holocaust revealed unspeakable conditions. Learn about liberators and what they confronted.
Please read the other posts responding to you (they were much better than mine ) rather than escalating this discussion into an argument
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,260
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.
Poor Stalin. No one ever talks about the millions he didn't kill
 

BestTestie

Banned
Jan 13, 2020
628
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.
Yes because the ideology that resulted in the deaths of 20+ million people is certainly a healthy one.
 
OP
OP
Goodstyle

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
Poor Stalin. No one ever talks about the millions he didn't kill
I think people sometimes get lost in the reasons behind actions instead of the actions themselves. Did Stalin intend for millions to die in a famine? No. In fact he grudgingly (and way too belatedly) started lobbying for international aid when things got really bad. But they still died, millions starved for 100% puritanical reasons. Lenin would not have gone this far in his socialist vision. Anyone else would never have attempted something like this, but he followed through to the end in order to "free" the workers and finance an industrial revolution.

His miscalculation is also something socialists need to think about today. Stalin basically told the elite of the farming world, the owners basically, that they didn't get to be owners or have employees anymore. This had to be enforced with laws and guns to back them up. What did the farmers do? They disobeyed, they revolted, they killed government enforces and they razed their own livestock and bailed. Many were deported or killed or sent to labour camps for refusing. Stalin instigated a class war to coerce people to do things his way, and millions died in a famine as a result.

You think it's the right thing to do for there to stop being owners and bosses reaping most of the rewards for other people's work, and I agree with that. But what happens when those people don't listen to the laws saying they don't own the means of production? What happens when these owners would rather burn it all down than give in to the government?
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
Yes because the ideology that resulted in the deaths of 20+ million people is certainly a healthy one.
Two in a row of the same thing. Much of the Cold War propaganda is so ingrained there is no way to really have any kind of conversation about any of these figures. The same goes for Castro and Mao. The idea is that the people who support them in their own countries are nothing but brainwashed zombies who don't know better. If only they had access to a website that said Stalin killed 100 million people then they'd know better.

I have no desire to defend the excesses of Communism, but given that many of these stats people use to show how many he killed includes all Russians who died during and in the lead-up to WW2 I don't think they are particularly useful or objective either.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,260
Two in a row of the same thing. Much of the Cold War propaganda is so ingrained there is no way to really have any kind of conversation about any of these figures. The same goes for Castro and Mao. The idea is that the people who support them in their own countries are nothing but brainwashed zombies who don't know better. If only they had access to a website that said Stalin killed 100 million people then they'd know better.

I have no desire to defend the excesses of Communism, but given that many of these stats people use to show how many he killed includes all Russians who died during and in the lead-up to WW2 I don't think they are particularly useful or objective either.
Even if you deny the numbers it really isn't up to debate that Stalin has done monstrous things. You can take a nuanced look at his reasons but that he's regarded as monster is very much his own doing.
 

RamsesGod43

Member
Sep 28, 2019
63
Mississauga
well where to start. The Soviets worked with the Nazis to destroy western Europe and in effect helped setup the conditions
necessary for the holocaust.

It's not like Stalin wasn't an anti semite himself. He was purging Jews in the USSR after the war ended.

Your post is disgusting

I second the disgust. Having relatives and immediate family live through the atrocities this man and his ideologies caused, this post is beyond disgusting.

This post shows the total lack of awareness and the distancing of people who have not lived through his policies. Who praise this man as a hero or a tragic misunderstood individual. It is very offensive to the victims of the Soviet Union and the apologists of Stalin.
 

adamsappel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,503
I thought that "Lenin's Birthday" thread was more of a parody of the "Nancy Pelosi's Birthday" thread, but this is really going to be a thing here? "Stalin wasn't all bad. He didn't mean for his policies to starve millions of people. He was just proposing an alternative to capitalism. Westerners can't even discuss him objectively!"

smdh
 

Icolin

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,235
Midgar
That Lenin thread where people were comfortable posting next to a fucking nazbol.

lmao the first post of theirs was alright and showed no signs of nazbol bullshit, and then when they got into weird nazbol shit it was called out and reported. but funnily enough they were banned for trolling, as if being a nazbol is irony or something

edit: (seems like they did finally get permed, but initially the ban was because of ironic trolling or some dumb shit)
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
Western media is incapable of portraying him as anything but a monster. They simply lack the language to describe the alternatives to Capitalism as anything short of ghoulishly evil. The idea of ever portraying the Russians for instance as the main forces which defeated the Nazis and freed the Jews from the concentration camps is still unimaginable for many even if that is objectively what happened.

Well the amount of deaths of innocents under his watch alone mean the word "monster" fits perfectly.
 

SneakyBadger

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,544
Conventional Western historical opinion is that the Soviets were essential in defeating the Nazis. This isn't unimaginable at all, it's a widely held and expressed historical fact across Europe and the Americas.
Yeah this is purely anecdotal but as an American whose knowledge of history is very weak, even I was aware of this. I don't recall seeing a textbook or documentary about WW2 that didn't mention this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
He doesn't need to be absolved of his violence and damage to the socialist project to be get a mass media portrayal that captures his immense historical importance and the complicated history of the USSR.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
Well the amount of deaths of innocents under his watch alone mean the word "monster" fits perfectly.
The idea that someone is a monster is a way to dismiss any understanding of them. Stalin's body count as a result of bad policy is roughly similar to Churchill but we obviously discuss both men in very different terms for political reasons.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,993
Canada
Yes in some ways what Stalin did completely changed Russia and the course of history. His five year plans though not executed well did help Russia catch up industrially to the other nations, but at the cost of lives.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
"People always associate Stalin with Communism. That's why I must, unprompted, defend Stalin in the name of Communism, even though OP pretty clearly draws a distinction between Socialism and Stalinism."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
The idea that someone is a monster is a way to dismiss any understanding of them. Stalin's body count as a result of bad policy is roughly similar to Churchill but we obviously discuss both men in very different terms for political reasons.
that's a good point of contrast to keep in mind when discussing history
Britain's colonial policy was killing millions well into the 20th century
not to mention the ongoing genocide of indigenous peoples in their dominions
 

Deleted member 60295

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 28, 2019
1,489
I think it's Anarcho-Communists who would really take exception to being lumped in with the authoritarian branches. It's rather different.

And that's completely understandable, given that anarcho-communism is closer to Marx's original vision for communism than anything Lenin, Stalin or any other dictator tried in the 20th century. I'm still skeptical that it has any chance of working until we have infinite resources, but at least the anarcho-coms generally have a coherent political ideology beyond "western imperialism bad, therefore anyone who opposes them is clearly good." (The latter bullshit is how you get people on social media who identify as socialists/communists defending regimes like fucking North Korea.)

Communism, not Stalinism. Don't detach the two.

Stalinism is just Marxist-Leninism, which arose because Lenin had a fundamental disagreement with Marx and other early communists that explicitly resulted in Marxist-Leninism becoming so authoritarian. It is not in any way a direct synonym for communism - it's merely one interpretation of how to create communism that most leftists outside of the tankies agree was a complete failure, and is best left in the dustbin of history and never tried again.
 
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TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,385
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Both Hitler and Him had one thing in common in that they were both awful anti semites. Its a shame what happened to Aleksei Kapler all because his daughter was in love.

I dont understand why people hate us so much. ;/