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Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
One thing I red is that she succeeded in duping so many mostly because of connections. More savvy VC capital stayed clear of her, but she got a lot of novice investors.
 

SArcher

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,669
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
absolutely fascinating.

Is that HBO documentary from this past March? If so I'm going to watch it tonight.]

edit: yes, it is. but 2 hours is too rich for my blood at 1:48am.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
The documentaries (both the HBO and ABC ones) barely scratch the surface.

Read Carreyrou's book. It will blow your mind.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
I'm really looking forward to her comeuppance but will probably enjoy Sunny Balwani's even more.

What a horrible, bullying piece of shit he is.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
You need to stop jumping into preach mode without understanding the subject. The same companies that she was competing against make the same blood testing machines for every country on earth regardless of private or public health insurance. This was nothing about cost.

The entire point was the tiny amount needed instead of the standard vial, and the many many tests that could be done off that one drop. Everything they talked about was the massive shift in preventative medicine the tech would enable, and how easy earlier diagnosis would be.
For fucks sake, they sold the product at Walgreens so that people could self-diagnose like this is MyHeritage. She made most of her revenue from this, claimed the results were valid, and then had to close that down in 2016 after misdiagnosing lots of people and being sued for it.

Only then is when they turned to really trying to get into the proper medical testing industry, but first they made their pitch as a ridiculously affordable way of getting blood tests, as opposed to the traditional method, and you just have to read articles from the rags of the time to see it:


"Like many other medical procedures in the U.S., the cost of blood work can vary hugely from laboratory to laboratory, and having health insurance doesn't seem to make a difference. A 2013 ABC News investigation found that a woman was charged more than $4,000 for blood work at an in-network facility, while the cost for the same battery of tests at an independent lab cost just $260."

And Theranos was supposed to put an end to this.

So forgive me, but this is what allowed Theranos to fool investors and consumers for so long. They had this avenue of revenue, and they tried to exploit it for as long as they could because they thought they would face no scrutiny, until they were sued and had to stop, and only then they turned to trying to pitch it as a substitute for real blood tests, promising the 2.0 version of their technology would actually work.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Nah, she defrauded a bunch of rich white people. They'll probably throw the book at her.
Lmao. The only time White defendants are guaranteed to get treated like everyone else is when they ripoff rich White people.

Bernie Madoff would be a free man if he had only targeted Black families for subprime mortgage lending.
 

Grug

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,644
I'm really not seeing the need to drag race into this one. Holmes is a legit villain and is going to pay a big price.
 

shinken

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,917
I really don't understand. So it was all a hoax for all those years? At its height Theranos had 800 employees. What were they all doing? When it's not possible to conduct bloodtest with that tiny amount of blood? They kept doing it, but with inaccurate results? Does Holmes have mental problems or something? What did she think the endgame was supposed to look like?
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,411
I finished the book in May, cruising through the podcast now.

As a biotech worker the story is fascinating and horrifying. But the angle that gets overlooked quite often in the "how did this happen" roundup is privilege. Grifters come in all shapes, colors, and sizes, but this person cost the 20 year CEO of Safeway his job, had an active US general (Mattis) vouching for her technology to be used on the battlefield, a young employee/whistleblower (Tyler Shultz) got disowned by his own grandfather, and famous investor Tim Draper is still stanning for the company (& Holmes).

Not one of these people ever saw a validated prototype of the technology she claimed she had. She never published in a reputable scientific journal. She never got FDA approval for her medical device. Theranos' board was stocked with people who knew fuck all about blood science or medical devices.

Her family and Stanford connections gave her an impossible advantage in the startup world, an advantage that snowballed into an impossible to ignore list of big name supporters, an advantage so great that her only chance of failure was being a complete sociopathic piece of shit who broke every possible rule about running a medical device company. And even then, it took a decade+ and several years of patients getting bogus results for someone to go on the record that the emperor had no clothes.

People proudly shared stories of how they became enamored with Elizabeth because of her family's history and previous success. That she was a dropout with no medical training was irrelevant - she had the right pedigree that suggested she could do what she said, no questions asked.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,411
I really don't understand. So it was all a hoax for all those years? At its height Theranos had 800 employees. What were they all doing? When it's not possible to conduct bloodtest with that tiny amount of blood? They kept doing it, but with inaccurate results? Does Holmes have mental problems or something? What did she think the endgame was supposed to look like?

- The hoax to her shareholders was that the machine that she promised (a microfluidics wonderbox that could run every modern bloodtest) was scrapped early on, and any investor demo that showed the machine running flawlessly was faked. The hoax to patients was that the various cobbled together solutions they came up with gave results that were clearly less accurate than existing tests. This includes the tests they ran on competitor devices, since their standard method involved diluting blood samples to get them to work on said devices.

- Theranos had unusually high turnover for a biotech company. Anyone who said the technology goal was impossible or raised issue with how the company handled data/testing was either demoted, bullied, threatened with lawsuits, quit, or was outright fired. Everyone who left had to sign an NDA about their time working there. The various engineering teams were given the task of improving the technology, the software team was tasked with getting the UI stable and functional, the design teams were tasked with making it as "Apple" as possible on the outside, the various lab teams were given the task of running the tests on either the Theranos machines or the commercial machines, none of the teams were allowed to talk to one another or share data unsupervised.

- the microfluidics platform hit a wall early on, because the the nature of blood and coagulation presents all sorts of problems to a microfluidics design. They ended up settling on a makeshift micro-pipette ELISA assay (the Edison) that required diluting the blood substantially to get any data at all, a spectrophotometer (the minilab/4s) that was still in prototype stages when it was being pushed into clinics, and reverse engineered commercial machines. They claimed that results from all 3 (inaccurate) platforms were coming from the same device.

- Theranos encouraged employees to ignore failed QC tests and to throw out data outliers without any statistical rationale. They faked out state and federal investigators for some time by hiding parts of their facilities and most of their employees from testimonials.

- at the very least, she is a pathological liar obsessed with her image as Steve Jobs' successor. She lied about everything, big and small, to every person in her life. Based on the various public profiles I'd say she's an outright sociopath.

- her intent was actually to have a company that did what she promised. But she also intended to have billions of dollars, exclusive partnerships, a flashy crafted public image, and a good chunk of marketshare years before the technology caught up to her goals because she felt she deserved those things just for having a good idea. So the entire company was a MLM-type scam that regularly lied to investors and endangered patients in the brief time they had store presence. When she finally publicly revealed the Edison and miniLab (after the scandal broke), the scientific community's collective response was "this is nothing new, shame on you".
 

shinken

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,917
- The hoax to her shareholders was that the machine that she promised (a microfluidics wonderbox that could run every modern bloodtest) was scrapped early on, and any investor demo that showed the machine running flawlessly was faked. The hoax to patients was that the various cobbled together solutions they came up with gave results that were clearly less accurate than existing tests. This includes the tests they ran on competitor devices, since their standard method involved diluting blood samples to get them to work on said devices.

- Theranos had unusually high turnover for a biotech company. Anyone who said the technology goal was impossible or raised issue with how the company handled data/testing was either demoted, bullied, threatened with lawsuits, quit, or was outright fired. Everyone who left had to sign an NDA about their time working there. The various engineering teams were given the task of improving the technology, the software team was tasked with getting the UI stable and functional, the design teams were tasked with making it as "Apple" as possible on the outside, the various lab teams were given the task of running the tests on either the Theranos machines or the commercial machines, none of the teams were allowed to talk to one another or share data unsupervised.

- the microfluidics platform hit a wall early on, because the the nature of blood and coagulation presents all sorts of problems to a microfluidics design. They ended up settling on a makeshift micro-pipette ELISA assay (the Edison) that required diluting the blood substantially to get any data at all, a spectrophotometer (the minilab/4s) that was still in prototype stages when it was being pushed into clinics, and reverse engineered commercial machines. They claimed that results from all 3 (inaccurate) platforms were coming from the same device.

- Theranos encouraged employees to ignore failed QC tests and to throw out data outliers without any statistical rationale. They faked out state and federal investigators for some time by hiding parts of their facilities and most of their employees from testimonials.

- at the very least, she is a pathological liar obsessed with her image as Steve Jobs' successor. She lied about everything, big and small, to every person in her life. Based on the various public profiles I'd say she's an outright sociopath.

- her intent was actually to have a company that did what she promised. But she also intended to have billions of dollars, exclusive partnerships, a flashy crafted public image, and a good chunk of marketshare years before the technology caught up to her goals because she felt she deserved those things just for having a good idea. So the entire company was a MLM-type scam that regularly lied to investors and endangered patients in the brief time they had store presence. When she finally publicly revealed the Edison and miniLab (after the scandal broke), the scientific community's collective response was "this is nothing new, shame on you".
Damn. That's crazy. This must be one of the biggest scam ever. Theranos at its peak was worth $10 billion. Absolutely insane.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,162
I know I shill it regularly, but Behind the Bastards has a good series on Elizabeth Holmes.

She's a grifter, pure and simple. IMO she'll get a slap on the wrist because she's, well, white and wealthy.
 

game-biz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,711
She needs to be locked away for the rest of her life. Well, at the very least this will ruin her life and she'll be miserable and laughed at until she dies. That helps a little bit.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,606
One thing I red is that she succeeded in duping so many mostly because of connections. More savvy VC capital stayed clear of her, but she got a lot of novice investors.
It's hilarious how many high-profile Republicans sat on her board. Schultz, Kissinger, and probably most egregiously Mattis, who went to bat for her tech as being useful to soldiers in the field in Afghanistan even though the tech was never deployed to troops in Afghanistan at all!
 

Perturabo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
692
One thing I dont really get about the whole thing is how she had several big time medical professors/investors vouch for her and the product. I dont believe they were naive and I think if they somehow made some profit out of this whole debacle then they should be in jail as well.
Because you only need to convince the right person in each of those institutions. The book goes into detail about how plenty of people at those places saw through it but their bosses wouldn't listen.
 

Griselbrand

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,237
It's hilarious how many high-profile Republicans sat on her board. Schultz, Kissinger, and probably most egregiously Mattis, who went to bat for her tech as being useful to soldiers in the field in Afghanistan even though the tech was never deployed to troops in Afghanistan at all!

Wasn't that quote made up? There was one major testimonial on their website that was, they mention it in the documentary.
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
Probably the most high profile grift since Madoff. It's really wild how many huge names she pulled along despite having no footing to stand on research wise.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
wow, I remember when people were still hopeful that this company was legit. Didn't know it ended in actual fraud charges.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
For fucks sake, they sold the product at Walgreens so that people could self-diagnose like this is MyHeritage. She made most of her revenue from this, claimed the results were valid, and then had to close that down in 2016 after misdiagnosing lots of people and being sued for it.

Only then is when they turned to really trying to get into the proper medical testing industry, but first they made their pitch as a ridiculously affordable way of getting blood tests, as opposed to the traditional method, and you just have to read articles from the rags of the time to see it:


"Like many other medical procedures in the U.S., the cost of blood work can vary hugely from laboratory to laboratory, and having health insurance doesn't seem to make a difference. A 2013 ABC News investigation found that a woman was charged more than $4,000 for blood work at an in-network facility, while the cost for the same battery of tests at an independent lab cost just $260."

And Theranos was supposed to put an end to this.

So forgive me, but this is what allowed Theranos to fool investors and consumers for so long. They had this avenue of revenue, and they tried to exploit it for as long as they could because they thought they would face no scrutiny, until they were sued and had to stop, and only then they turned to trying to pitch it as a substitute for real blood tests, promising the 2.0 version of their technology would actually work.

They weren't selling to end consumers at Walgreens. They sold it to Walgreens clinics.

Certainly, the high cost of US healthcare played a part in this, but if the machine worked as advertised it would be desirable anywhere in the world, not just in the USA.
 

Swig

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,495
She's such a bizarre person. She wanted to be the next Steve Jobs, which is why she always wore the turtlenecks..
 

TheMan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,264
If you haven't listened to a podcast called The Drop Out, do yourself a favor and listen right now. They haven't updated in months, but they discuss this whole debacle in detail. Fascinating tale.
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,517
It would be pretty funny if she had to rely on a public defender. That's a bad situation in even a simple case but something like this? As the kids say "yikes."