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delete

Member
Jul 4, 2019
1,189
to the people who say they would rather have resources allocated to the game. The problem is that you shouldn't have to, getting a native 4k UI is well within reason given the system's capability, if the issue is ram you could easily use the fast ssd as a virtual memory pool.


also not buying it would take 1gb for ms to up the res from 1080 to 4k. someone found a reddit post from 2 years ago, saying that about onex supposedly, and now its repeated at every 10th post like its a gospel of truth lol

That was based on a digital foundry article when talking about the xbox one x. But I agree it shouldn't take an extra gb of ram to go to 4k.
 
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GJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
The Netherlands
Personally I couldn't really care less about this. You're gonna see that menu for a whole 5 seconds before booting up a game or app and in-game notifications only pop up on the screen for a second or two. If this gives the dev more headroom to work with I'm all for it. 4K is such a waste, especially on stuff like this.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
This is not even an issue. If the only major negative thing about the console is that it's UI is not 4k then that say's something.
 

DrowsyJungle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
912
Here's the thing- I want both. Sure, if we see a tangible benefit and games run much better on Series X than, say, a PS5 specifically because of this, then great! But at the end of the day, even the One X was originally designed to have a 4K UI, and they only decided to drop to 1080p because devs wanted the extra resources. Now that a brand new system was being designed, why not include an extra gig of slower RAM, or some sort of solution to make sure the UI can run at a higher res?

Personally, like I said, I want both. I want a 4K UI, ideally even with HDR support so my TV doesn't have to constantly switch between modes, and I want my games to look and run great. The Series X doesn't do that, and that's a shame. The PS5 looks like it does it just fine.
I'm sure pretty sure the Xbox UI upscales the res so your tv doesn't have to switch. But like I mentioned previously, I don't purchase a game console to admire the ui, I use it to play games. Whatever makes games look and run better then do it. Interesting that you mention PS5 in this but since you have, the PS5 will render actual games at a lower res, frame-rate or both.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Not. Not important. It's never been importent over the history of consoles, and it's not going to start now. People care about games, and that's all they should care about and it's all they really care about.

Just speaking from the perspective of a user researcher, we know that people don't just care about games in the sense that you're referring. What people care about is the player experience and for that we need to look at a wider picture than just what's inside the game. Players care about everything ranging from the unboxing and installation experience and what the menu looks like, to what it feels like to shoot a gun in the game, or how fluid a character appears to move on the screen.

Just stepping away from the 4k UI stuff, but one big example of something players really do care about outside of the games themselves, is ease of use. How quickly they can achieve what they want with the system and how intuitive that process is.

When the PS3 shipped, one of its biggest criticisms were that it didn't have a highly functional in-game media bar type thing, like the XBOX 360. You were heavily restricted in-game, and everything you could do, was very slow. That was because Sony didn't reserve many system resources for the OS performance. I'm not saying that's the same situation as the 4k / 1080 debate here (as the 4k / 1080 debate is a comparably minor issue), but that type of example does refute the idea that it's only what's inside the game that matters.

Just my two cents, but I would take a DOS based UI if it meant all that processing would go to running smoother games at higher resolutions, I can appreciate the aesthetics of a nice UI but I buy a gaming console to run games. Don't give a dang what the UI looks like TBH

With a dos based UI, 90% of the player base would be left without access to their games. :P

Basically, my response to your post is the same as I wrote above to Double Down. I appreciate that some folks care less for aesthetics and UI, but the whole player experience does matter. Apple products are perhaps a good example of this, they sell what is often reduced functionality for the sake of a better user experience, and hundreds of millions of people buy into that.

People buy into the aesthetic and easy to use.
 
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Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
Show me the actual code that makes this a false dilemma. Also games on Xbox One X outperformed PS4 Pro.
The example in my post has nothing to do with code. Spend a little more and you can have both a higher-res UI and just as much RAM for games as you did before. (Though there might also be technical approaches to eat and have your cake as well.) "4K UI" and "no less RAM for games" aren't mutually exclusive options.

The One X outperforms Pro because it has much higher compute, much more RAM (regardless of the UI res), and higher memory bandwidth.

Interesting that you mention PS5 in this but since you have, the PS5 will render actual games at a lower res, frame-rate or both.
This is definitely not guaranteed. Very likely, yes, for most games. But the two consoles are close enough in performance that just by chance some will be identical (especially if framerates are capped).
 

HonestAbe

Member
May 19, 2020
1,902
I don't. Series X will be my first XBox ever :P

I don't know if it's available but tom warren was streaming it this morning. You can see it if there is a VOD of it or there are pleanty other sources.
Honestly it's clear to me on a 65 OLED. No noticeable blurry garbage people are talking about here.
 

Not you

Member
Oct 27, 2017
384
Just speaking from the perspective of a user researcher, we know that people don't just care about games in the sense that you're referring. What people care about is the player experience and for that we need to look at a wider picture than just what's inside the game. Players care about everything ranging from the unboxing and installation experience and what the menu looks like, to what it feels like to shoot a gun in the game, or how fluid a character appears to move on the screen.

Just stepping away from the 4k UI stuff, but one big example of something players really do care about outside of the games themselves, is ease of use. How quickly they can achieve what they want with the system and how intuitive that process is.

When the PS3 shipped, one of its biggest criticisms were that it didn't have a highly functional in-game media bar type thing, like the XBOX 360. You were heavily restricted in-game, and everything you could do, was very slow. That was because Sony didn't reserve many system resources for the OS performance. I'm not saying that's the same situation as the 4k / 1080 debate here (as the 4k / 1080 debate is a comparably minor issue), but that type of example does refute the idea that it's only what's inside the game that matters.
Exactly because what you describe inhibits a player from doing what is most important, playing games. Right there with you, ux is important, getting to what you want is most of it. The subtle difference between upscaled 1080p and native 4k in a ui is not only not going to matter, most people aren't even going to know.

This is splitting hairs and looking for controversy where none exists.
 

baconcow

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,814
Just an observation. There was a recent thread here with a poll on how the reveal of the UI would affect purchasing decisions and it was over 90% that it wouldn't. The thread and poll asked the opinion on a UI's reveal, not specifying the UI's resolution. The poll's data suggests that 93.1% of users feel that the reveal of the UI would have very little or no effect on their purchasing decision(s). I would expect that this would extend to the discovery of the UI's maximum resolution. The thread's discussion also appeared to correlate with this data. It appears that this thread has a lot more discourse regarding the reveal (or wide realization) of the Xbox Series X's maximum UI resolution (not necessarily regarding a purchasing decision; although there are a few of those takes, here). Personally, I want 4k and we all know the Xbox Series X can handle it. I personally expect a patch before launch that will change the maximum UI resolution to 4k. It has been hinted by Jessica Conditt (Engadget), and Jeff Grubb (GamesBeat) to some extent, that the UI may be changing before launch.
 

Poutine

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
926
I just don't get why people are defending low res UI.

It certainly won't stop me from enjoying games if dashboard is in 1080P but I don't see any reason to defend it on behalf of Microsoft. Difference in 4K vs 1080P dashboard is clearly visible.

I'm not sure if you have an Xbox to actually see what it looks like right now but it's really impossible to see, most people here didn't even knew that the One X was running a 1080p UI. Maybe because I haven't seen a 4k UI yet or maybe because the upscaling of my XBR 900e does the job but it's really sharp looking to me.
 

FarronFox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,429
Melbourne, Australia
I'm not sure if you have an Xbox to actually see what it looks like right now but it's really impossible to see, most people here didn't even knew that the One X was running a 1080p UI. Maybe because I haven't seen a 4k UI yet or maybe because the upscaling of my XBR 900e does the job but it's really sharp looking to me.

Yeah that's the thing with a lot of replies where people think that one x is fine.

When you have something that is in 4k such as ps4 pro and Apple TV 4k you can see how much clearer things are, and then you go back to the one x and its just a bit dull in comparison.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Exactly because what you describe inhibits a player from doing what is most important, playing games. Right there with you, ux is important, getting to what you want is most of it. The subtle difference between upscaled 1080p and native 4k in a ui is not only not going to matter, most people aren't even going to know.

This is splitting hairs and looking for controversy where none exists.

I don't think anyone's looking for controversy. I think this is an enthusiasts forum, and people just like to mull over the details.

For what it's worth, I was also slightly bugged that during the PS5 reveal today, it took like whole second to load up one of the game icons.

I don't think a small amount of ram from the highest-end system inhibits anyone from playing games. Especially, bearing in mind that those games will by and large, be designed and developed for lower-end systems first.
 

MirageDwarf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
996
I'm not sure if you have an Xbox to actually see what it looks like right now but it's really impossible to see, most people here didn't even knew that the One X was running a 1080p UI. Maybe because I haven't seen a 4k UI yet or maybe because the upscaling of my XBR 900e does the job but it's really sharp looking to me.
Don't have one right now.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,789
I don't think a small amount of ram from the highest-end system inhibits anyone from playing games. Especially, bearing in mind that those games will by and large, be designed and developed for lower-end systems first.

This generation is the smallest increase in RAM ever afaik. With RAM prices not really decreasing im not sure i blame them for being conservative.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
Just an observation. There was a recent thread here with a poll on how the reveal of the UI would affect purchasing decisions and it was over 90% that it wouldn't. The thread and poll asked the opinion on a UI's reveal, not specifying the UI's resolution. The poll's data suggests that 93.1% of users feel that the reveal of the UI would have very little or no effect on their purchasing decision(s). I would expect that this would extend to the discovery of the UI's maximum resolution. The thread's discussion also appeared to correlate with this data. It appears that this thread has a lot more discourse regarding the reveal (or wide realization) of the Xbox Series X's maximum UI resolution (not necessarily regarding a purchasing decision; although there are a few of those takes, here). Personally, I want 4k and we all know the Xbox Series X can handle it. I personally expect a patch before launch that will change the maximum UI resolution to 4k. It has been hinted by Jessica Conditt (Engadget), and Jeff Grubb (GamesBeat) to some extent, that the UI may be changing before launch.

Regarding the poll and that data I just wanted to mention a couple of things...

1) People don't predict their future behaviour very well at all. Things like purchase intention surveys just don't hold true at all. If they did, the industry and game development as a whole would have a lot less risk associated with it. Countless times I've seen developers see their game bomb, and then look back and their badly designed playtest survey and say 'Huh? But everyone said they'd buy it'. It's a lot easier to click a poll in a forum than it is to make a $500 purchase in 2 months time, the two tasks aren't representative of one another and thus, you see those big disparities in the results.

2) Many people have already made their decision on a hardware purchase, and for them that decision will be something that's difficult to unpick, and often based off of prior experience with a product. The reasons people like Playstation might include the exclusives, the controller, the hardware, the price, the user interface, specific features like maybe the share functionality and so on. But for the sake of easing their cognitive load, people aren't going to go into the 101 reasons they like or dislike a platform, every time they evaluate their next purchase. For a lot of people it just becomes a brand attachment, almost an emotion or feeling as opposed to the pull of a specific feature - however, that does not mean that all of those individual components were not instrumental in making those people feel the way that they do.
 

karmitt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,818
I don't know if it's available but tom warren was streaming it this morning. You can see it if there is a VOD of it or there are pleanty other sources.
Honestly it's clear to me on a 65 OLED. No noticeable blurry garbage people are talking about here.

Every once in a while I'm a bit bothered by Switch's 720p UI on my TV. I assume 1080p would be good enough for me, but I still think 4K would would give it a more premium feel.

I will say that I did enjoy just how sharp the PS4 Pro UI was and I'm sure some of that was the resolution.
 

Not you

Member
Oct 27, 2017
384
I don't think anyone's looking for controversy. I think this is an enthusiasts forum, and people just like to mull over the details.

For what it's worth, I was also slightly bugged that during the PS5 reveal today, it took like whole second to load up one of the game icons.

I don't think a small amount of ram from the highest-end system inhibits anyone from playing games. Especially, bearing in mind that those games will by and large, be designed and developed for lower-end systems first.

You dont think anyone is looking for controversy? Lol

You previously referenced a slippery slope of increasingly lowering the res of the ui to free up even more resources. And now you're inviting the counter point of the slippery slope of increasingly taking resources away from games to make a UI fancier. You do realize this device is used primarily to play games, right? How much is too many resources to take away from games?

In a world where gamers choose a smaller, monochrome screen as their portable of choice because it had the best games should be all the evidence we need to know what is important.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
This thread has grown quite a bit since I first seen it posted. If it's just because the UI is running at 1080p, then holy shit do we have it good nowadays, lol.

So long as the elements are large enough, and anti-aliased where needed, I'll be fine. He'll, even if not, so long as the games I play are good...
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,467
This generation is the smallest increase in RAM between ever afaik. With RAM prices not really decreasing im not sure i blame them for being conservative.

I think a big factor in this decision is that ram is not as important as how quickly data can be moved. The SSDs take much of the work away, and new compression techniques will things even lighter.

The other factor is that games themselves, are not growing in size exponentially. Games and their assets are not likely to be ten times the size they were of the previous generation. In many cases because the asset quality is mostly... good enough for photorealistic or near-photorealistic visuals. Racing games are perhaps a good example, where I suspect it's likely that the vehicle models will actually shrink in size on next gen systems (same models + new compression) when compared to current.

But I hear what you're saying. 1GB of ram is a lot, when you only have 16 in total, and it does seem like a lot just for the 4k system level menu, so I could see them wanting to reserve that for games.

You dont think anyone is looking for controversy? Lol

You previously referenced a slippery slope of increasingly lowering the res of the ui to free up even more resources. And now you're inviting the counter point of the slippery slope of increasingly taking resources away from games to make a UI fancier. You do realize this device is used primarily to play games, right? How much is too many resources to take away from games?

In a world where gamers choose a smaller, monochrome screen as their portable of choice because it had the best games should be all the evidence we need to know what is important.

Well, principally if you design your system level user experience, and gameplay experience semi-independently, then you shouldn't be taking anything from the other.

Neither the game, or the system should be fighting each other for RAM, or any other resource.

For instance, you might outline early on in some concept stage, that you want your user experience to have, a party chat, a 4k interface, a video recording feature. So, you say you need 4GB of ram to make that happen, fine. Separate to that, you might say, you need 12GB of ram to perform well in modern games for the next 5+ years.

And then, you allocate 16GB of ram, to fulfil both of those roles. Neither the OS or game is fighting for that resource pool.

You don't determine how much ram you have, and then how to slice it. You pick your feature set and what's important to your audience, then you design your hardware and resource distribution around how that can be delivered.

As for the controversy thing, I think folks on ERA generally do pretty good job hosting these discussions without getting into console war territory. I think the moderators do a good job keeping folks in check also. I think this is one of the better places to have these discussions and I think at least there are a lot of people on here happy to talk about hardware and software, without those discussions existing for the sake of controversy.
 
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Rocco

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,330
Texas
This thread is still going on? I skimmed the first page hours ago, understood that this is so 1gb could be freed up for games and dipped. I'm assuming that hasn't changed? I can only imagine the utter trash being spewed based on the mod notes.
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,387
I'm sure pretty sure the Xbox UI upscales the res so your tv doesn't have to switch. But like I mentioned previously, I don't purchase a game console to admire the ui, I use it to play games. Whatever makes games look and run better then do it. Interesting that you mention PS5 in this but since you have, the PS5 will render actual games at a lower res, frame-rate or both.
I was talking about HDR, which is a different signal altogether. But it's fair that you don't care, I personally do, and it's just as valid a point of view. As I always say, try changing your Windows 10 display res to half your computer monitor's native res, and tell me that's a great experience :P

I get it, they want games to have more RAM, but they should have done whatever they could to make sure their next-gen console could have a UI at a native res that most TVs will support for years to come. A 1080p UI looks pretty dated now on the One, it'll look horrible by 2027 when this console is nearing end of life. And while I don't blame you for not caring, I certainly do. I want this premium console to feel premium, and I care in the same way I would if a brand new laptop wouldn't run windows at its monitor's native res.
 

DustyVonErich

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,861
Meh. A 1080p UI doesn't mean much to me. I'm still here looking at the S having a 900p game on it's next gen hardware. Forget the UI. Use more of that allocation for games if devs can, since I don't play UI's. I play games.
 

VirtuaCider

Member
May 15, 2020
126
I respect John Linneman and co's sensitivity to it, but I have a 65" LG OLED and I haven't given a second's thought to the resolution of the PS4 or Switch UIs. They seem to scale cleanly. That said, I don't think preserving game resources is a valid excuse not to do it this gen, if there's demand for it outside the current hyper-scrutiny of every new console detail. :)
 

Not you

Member
Oct 27, 2017
384
I think a big factor in this decision is that ram is not as important as how quickly data can be moved. The SSDs take much of the work away, and new compression techniques will things even lighter.

The other factor is that games themselves, are not growing in size exponentially. Games and their assets are not likely to be ten times the size they were of the previous generation. In many cases because the asset quality is mostly... good enough for photorealistic or near-photorealistic visuals. Racing games are perhaps a good example, where I suspect it's likely that the vehicle models will actually shrink in size on next gen systems (same models + new compression) when compared to current.

But I hear what you're saying. 1GB of ram is a lot, when you only have 16 in total, and it does seem like a lot just for the 4k system level menu, so I could see them wanting to reserve that for games.



Well, principally if you design your systems use experience, and gameplay experience semi-independently, then you shouldn't be taking anything from the other.

Neither the game, or the system should be fighting each other for RAM, or any other resource.

For instance, you might outline early on in some pre-concept stage, that you want your user experience to have, a party chat, a 4k interface, a video recording feature. So, you say you need 4GB of ram to make that happen, fine. Separate to that, you might say, you need 12GB of ram to perform well in modern games for the next 5+ years.

And then, you allocate 16GB of ram, to fulfil both of those roles. Neither the OS or game is fighting for that resource pool.

You don't determine how much ram you have, and then how to slice it. You pick your feature set and what's important to your audience, then you design your hardware and resource distribution around how that can be delivered.

As for the controversy thing, I think folks on ERA generally do pretty good job hosting these discussions without getting into console war territory. I think the moderators do a good job keeping folks in check also. I think this is one of the better places to have these discussions and I think at least there are a lot of people on here happy to talk about hardware and software, without those discussions existing for the sake of controversy.

Sure...The issue is most people would like their games device to prioritize gaming. Spending money on things not related to gaming is not what people want. They spoke loudly during xbox's TV tv TV preso. Most would rather take the full 16 for games.

Why even waste money on other stuff especially for a very minor improvement that only people who have ps5s care about?
 

delete

Member
Jul 4, 2019
1,189
I respect John Linneman and co's sensitivity to it, but I have a 65" LG OLED and I haven't given a second's thought to the resolution of the PS4 or Switch UIs. They seem to scale cleanly. That said, I don't think preserving game resources is a valid excuse not to do it this gen, if there's demand for it outside the current hyper-scrutiny of every new console detail. :)

I have a 55" LG OLED and the switch UI looks blurry as hell to me, I have to turn the sharpness way up otherwise it feels like I am looking through a filter with a layer of Vaseline on it.
 

delete

Member
Jul 4, 2019
1,189
So if you take a screenshot and try to look at it later will it be displaying a 4k image at 1080p and then up scaling it back to 4k? What about recorded gameplay?
 

2shd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,560
I have a 55" LG OLED and the switch UI looks blurry as hell to me, I have to turn the sharpness way up otherwise it feels like I am looking through a filter with a layer of Vaseline on it.

The Switch UI does seem much blurrier than the One X to me. Is the Switch's UI just rendered at 720p internally and upscaled by the system? That may explain it.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,636
The first thing I noticed going from 1080p to 4K on Pro was how tack sharp the UI was. The text and iconography looked pretty great.
 

GamerDude

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,313
The irony about this thread is that it consists about 75% of people dropping in to comment on how ridiculous it is that people are bothered by this and how can the thread be so long? Those are the people making this thread long.

Also, why are people being such assholes in this thread? It's perfectly OK to voice disappointment that the UI is not in 4K. The belittling of opinions and mocking is honestly embarrassing.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
It makes sense to save resources. Maybe they should leave it up to the dev and improve UI resolution when you're playing a not very demanding game. I have a One X and 4K TV and never noticed.
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,571
Eh.

Who cares? I'm buying a PS5, but honestly? I think this is smart. 4K TV's upscale well. It's just the UI. If you can get a considerable amount of a power boost for games by doing this, why the hell not? Mayyybe it will look blurryish if you bring it up while playing a game but I don't see it being a huge problem for most people.

And I wouldn't be so shocked if after enough updates the UI end up will running at 4K anyway.
 
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