• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,173
By the way, I do want to say:

I think that it's really important to have scholars who are not of that country, studying the country and culture. However, I think it's equally important to realize that they are not the **only** authorities nor are they the only legitimate views.

Of course! :) Though I will say that mastering the language and being familiar with the culture and having the experience of living in a place will help you to 'bridge the gap' better. After many years of studying something in-depth, you will have an easier time to put things in the big picture, I presume. Expertise is important but with "everything being political" and so much part of our daily life's and news cycles, our discipline really is quite different from many others. And people are usually more interested in the big questions while many of us researchers in area studies tend to stick to smaller and medium one's because we can answer those better given we are not in a laboratory environment with our work.

Anyway, I cherish my student days where I was devoting my whole time to studying an "alien" culture. It's trying to nail the jelly on the wall, you try to understand how other people think that are from a very different background than you are. But of course, I'll always be influenced by my own social background, we're all biased to a certain extent. Still, the single most important thing I've tried to learn from all of this is: First understand others feelings and thoughts, then in a second step you can still evaluate them for yourself. And this is where the most interesting dialogues will start, especially if both share this approach! Too much in the world is jumping to conclusions without first understanding the whereabouts.

And much love for Taiwan from me, of course! Big focus of our work :)
 
Last edited:

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
crazillo - I really do appreciate your perspective. I've already learned things I didn't know.

I made the post I did because, for me, unfortunately, I see people who discount the information and perspective of the actual people within a culture or area and only listen to perspectives that fit their preconceived notions. That's all :)

When you're Asian American, you become used to non Asians acting as if they are the only ones with valid perspectives and authority, and non Asians only listening to them lol.
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
User Banned (1 Week): Drive-By Trolling in a Sensitive Thread
Love Chinese culture. Don't care for their politics. Free Tibet and Hong Kong and all that jazz
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
So this is interesting. If people know Mike Chen, he's a pretty prominent YouTuber and he recently uploaded a video that talks about this very subject on his own identity.

 

hwarang

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,450
Yeah it's a really fucked up situation...
People are assholes. They judge from the comfort of their own biased, moral compass.

It's even more fucked up because the "change" only comes when they face a similar situation... whenever that may or never be.
 

JMeth

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
251
Illinois
This is a interesting thread to me because I didn't realize that Chinese bigotry to the point of hatred actually existed outside certain politicians. I've never really witnessed it myself though I live in a fairly small rural area.
 

JMeth

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
251
Illinois
I take that back. Not specifically towards Chinese but years ago a waitress refused to sit myself and my Ex wife who was Korean and made a snide remark about how I shouldn't be with someone like her at a Applebee's in North Dakota
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
This is a interesting thread to me because I didn't realize that Chinese bigotry to the point of hatred actually existed outside certain politicians. I've never really witnessed it myself though I live in a fairly small rural area.
I take that back. Not specifically towards Chinese but years ago a waitress refused to sit myself and my Ex wife who was Korean and made a snide remark about how I shouldn't be with someone like her at a Applebee's in North Dakota

If you're not an ethnic minority in the US, it's usually not going to be apparent how racism manifests.
 
Mar 7, 2020
2,960
USA
If you're not an ethnic minority in the US, it's usually not going to be apparent how racism manifests.

Yep, I remember in Middle school in the states, I tried to tell a teacher that I was being bullied by racist, and she didn't believe me because the other people didn't call me Chink or any other slurs. So when I went home, and told my parents, they went back to the school, met the principle, and pulled me from that class.

Hint: She was white.

To alot of white people, it's not racism unless you call them by whatever racial slur or make it super obvious, and even then, they will try to deflect, turn a blind eye, call you overly sensitive ect.
 

Tsuyu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,582
If you read the thread on China and Russia numbers on Covid19 cases / death, the most interesting parts are

1) Western numbers are held as gold standard in terms of legitimacy and honesty. That's the normal bar everyone else is measured against regardless of how East Asia has perform thus far.

2) No naunce in China having the stringest lockdown, at a far earlier timeline of the virus progression, where studies have trace this virus was already hitting the western shores as early as late December or January.

3) China only implementing the return of normalcy at 2 digits infected cases for at least 2 weeks in Wuhan.

4) You'll see adjective describing China measures with backhanded compliment like invasive, aggressive wordings because again it's Western standards ( or in this case Western failings ) they are held against. Singapore, South Korea has the same 'invasive' contact tracing apps and even US wants to hire 100k to contract trace new cases now.

Bottom line is, just like lock down, mandating the wearing of masks, fining people for breaking curfew, it's not acceptable until the West does it too.
 
Mar 7, 2020
2,960
USA
I saw the thread. This one right?
www.resetera.com

How do China and Russia have such a slow number of COVID-19 deaths? COVID

Even ignoring the conspiracy theories for China. East Asia is just doing a much better job dealing with this than the rest of the world. Plus China probably has the easiest time implementing new policies to get it under control

Can't believe all the dog whistles in there. Either China is lying, the people are sheep, their not trust worthy, they actually have millions dead ect. It can't possibly be because the government went through extremes measures to combat the pandemic while the US had the Federal government sitting on their ass until the daily death tolls got too big, and then the response is still all over the place.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,382
Seoul
I saw the thread. This one right?
www.resetera.com

How do China and Russia have such a slow number of COVID-19 deaths? COVID

Even ignoring the conspiracy theories for China. East Asia is just doing a much better job dealing with this than the rest of the world. Plus China probably has the easiest time implementing new policies to get it under control

Can't believe all the dog whistles in there. Either China is lying, the people are sheep, their not trust worthy, they actually have millions dead ect. It can't possibly be because the government went through extremes measures to combat the pandemic while the US had the Federal government sitting on their ass until the daily death tolls got too big, and then the response is still all over the place.
Super annoying that most people are like "china is super centralized, controlling and has surveillance everywhere" but then they ignore how useful those 2 things would be during this type of situation.

Its like they'd feel better about the situation in their own country if China is somehow doing worse than them.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,500
Bandung Indonesia
Yeah lots of people don't view Chinese-descents here in Indonesia very well, since it is assumed that they are rich people who are getting rich through the backs of locals.

Well, it's true for a minority of ultra rich people I guess, but vast majority of Chinese-descent people in here are really just regular, good folks. Shame that there's a stigma about them and I don't see it going away anytime soon.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,855
Chicago, IL
Super annoying that most people are like "china is super centralized, controlling and has surveillance everywhere" but then they ignore how useful those 2 things would be during this type of situation.

Its like they'd feel better about the situation in their own country if China is somehow doing worse than them.

I had to stop reading threads like this on Era because the way people talk about a country/region they know nothing about like they have the absolute authority on what is real or not just makes my blood boil.
 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
Love Chinese culture. Don't care for their politics. Free Tibet and Hong Kong and all that jazz
I'm sorry did someone just get banned for saying Free Tibet and Hong Kong? Mods please give an explanation other than generic comments, because this is unacceptable in a forum that tries to pretend it is all about freedom of speech
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Super annoying that most people are like "china is super centralized, controlling and has surveillance everywhere" but then they ignore how useful those 2 things would be during this type of situation.

Its like they'd feel better about the situation in their own country if China is somehow doing worse than them.

I think there's space of doubt here. The official Chinese figures just look very low, no one is holding western data as the gold standard, it's just understood its much more difficult for officials to fudge numbers and someone is going to leak the real thing.

That this doubt is masked by drive-bys is a problem, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater here. If you truly believe the 80,000 infected official count China has reported to WHO, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Yeah lots of people don't view Chinese-descents here in Indonesia very well, since it is assumed that they are rich people who are getting rich through the backs of locals.

Well, it's true for a minority of ultra rich people I guess, but vast majority of Chinese-descent people in here are really just regular, good folks. Shame that there's a stigma about them and I don't see it going away anytime soon.

Yeah I touched on this in my post.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I think there's space of doubt here. The official Chinese figures just look very low, no one is holding western data as the gold standard, it's just understood its much more difficult for officials to fudge numbers and someone is going to leak the real thing.
They look very low compared to which country?
China's numbers are way worse than any country in Asia that took this seriously.
They only look low compare to countries like the US who hasn't done a fraction of what China did to try and contain this virus.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
They look very low compared to which country?
China's numbers are way worse than any country in Asia that took this seriously.
They only look low compare to countries like the US who hasn't done a fraction of what China did to try and contain this virus.
France has double the numbers numbers of infected. Considering it was spreading for months prior to their original lockdown I sincerely doubt the 80k figure is accurate.

Right next door in South Korea which has fore warning and generally got it under control quickly has 11k cases on a population of 51 million. That's a much higher per capita count than China.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
France has double the numbers numbers of infected. Considering it was spreading for months prior to their original lockdown I sincerely doubt the 80k figure is accurate.

Right next door in South Korea which has fore warning and generally got it under control quickly has 11k cases on a population of 51 million. That's a much higher per capita count than China.
France hadn't done the fraction of what China did and South Korea has an order of magnitude less deaths than China.

I'm not sure per capita numbers are terribly useful measure here, neither Korea or China ran out of people that can be infected, Korea just got on top of it quicker and was able to contain it better.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
France hadn't done the fraction of what China did and South Korea has an order of magnitude less deaths than China.

I'm not sure per capita numbers are terribly useful measure here, neither Korea or China ran out of people that can be infected, Korea just got on top of it quicker and was able to contain it better.
Why not? I realize testing also impact counts as countries that test more per capita should record more cases. France has 170+k cases and has had fewer tests than other countries too.

"• COVID-19 testing rate by country | Statista" https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-rate-select-countries-worldwide/
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Why not? I realize testing also impact counts as countries that test more per capita should record more cases. France has 170+k cases and has had fewer tests than other countries too.
Because outbreaks don't start in proportion to the size of the population.
Infections per capita can be a useful measure to see how stressed a country healthcare system is and how likely a person is to get infected, but as a measure of containment it's not great -

www.nytimes.com

Four Ways to Measure Coronavirus Outbreaks in U.S. Metro Areas (Published 2020)

Some metros in the U.S. could have worse outbreaks than those in Italy’s Lombardy region or in Wuhan, China.

In the early stages of an outbreak, the population size doesn't matter — one infected person will probably infect a few people, whether that person lives in a metropolitan area of 100,000 or one of 10 million. But as an epidemic progresses, the number of cases per capita can provide a good measure of the prevalence of coronavirus in a community. Per capita measurements also give a sense of how strained a community's health care system has become, since larger places tend to have more medical resources.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Because outbreaks don't start in proportion to the size of the population.
Infections per capita can be a useful measure to see how stressed a country healthcare system is and how likely a person is to get infected, but as a measure of containment it's not great -

www.nytimes.com

Four Ways to Measure Coronavirus Outbreaks in U.S. Metro Areas (Published 2020)

Some metros in the U.S. could have worse outbreaks than those in Italy’s Lombardy region or in Wuhan, China.

China at the stage it instituted the lockdown was not at the early state of the outbreak, and knowing what we know now, it was spreading at least all of December.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
China at the stage it instituted the lockdown was not at the early state of the outbreak, and knowing what we know now, it was spreading at least all of December.
Yeah, and they got around 70k infection in Wuhan.
I think this pretty inline with what you seen in places like NYC - first recorded infection in February 29th and by the end of March you have 65k infections.
 

GameBytes

Member
Jan 22, 2019
88
I would like to see a free China some day soon. I wish to fight for this in any peaceful way I can. Is avoiding buying mainland Chinese products a valid way to bring some change towards that?
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
I would like to see a free China some day soon. I wish to fight for this in any peaceful way I can. Is avoiding buying mainland Chinese products a valid way to bring some change towards that?

I mean unless you own a multi-billion company and pull manufacturing from China not really.

If it makes you feel good go for it.

Much like pollution it's the top 1% that's contributing to 90% of the problem.

Also any idea that a "free" China won't involve bloody revolution against the CCP is a pipe dream.
 

GameBytes

Member
Jan 22, 2019
88
I don't think you will help Chinese people buy hurting them economically.
It is the only peaceful way to hurt the CCP I think. By fueling their economy, we have been fueling the CCP more than the people it seems. The CCP is trying to buy their way through everything, as is also evident by the $2 billion they are pledging to "help" the world fight this virus - denying it originated there
 
Last edited:

Balls

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
297
I don't think you will help Chinese people buy hurting them economically.
Well that's cause it was never actually about "helping" Chinese people. A "free" China to them is a China that is poor, easier to control/influence, not an economic threat and most importantly one that maintains American or western hegemony. I don't see people like him boycotting American made products despite the countless war crimes they've committed.
 

Balls

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
297
It is the only peaceful way to hurt the CCP I think. By fueling their economy, we have been fueling the CCP more than the people it seems. The CCP is trying to buy their way through everything, as is also evident by the $2 billion they are pledging to "help" the world fight this virus - denying it originated there
Say what you want about the CCP, but they lifted over 800 million people out of poverty so Chinese people have definitely benefited from China's economic prosperity over the past decades. But again, this isn't really about Chinese people and you would absolutely give no fucks if they go back to living in extreme poverty as long as it hurts China.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Tbf those 800 million were in poverty due to the CCP.

But also tbf Mao's CCP isn't Deng Xiaoping's CCP.
 

GameBytes

Member
Jan 22, 2019
88
Say what you want about the CCP, but they lifted over 800 million people out of poverty so Chinese people have definitely benefited from China's economic prosperity over the past decades. But again, this isn't really about Chinese people and you would absolutely give no fucks if they go back to living in extreme poverty as long as it hurts China.
I had friends in China I lost contact with because of the CCP. Say what you want
 

zero_suit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,567
Well that's cause it was never actually about "helping" Chinese people. A "free" China to them is a China that is poor, easier to control/influence, not an economic threat and most importantly one that maintains American or western hegemony. I don't see people like him boycotting American made products despite the countless war crimes they've committed.
Boom
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,907
I don't see people like him boycotting American made products despite the countless war crimes they've committed.
Well, maybe the world should be boycotting 'Made in the U.S.A.' based on atrocities committed in this nation's name past and present. As an American, that sounds like a good fuckin idea. For example, our invasion of Iraq. Except for the American service members and their families who paid the heaviest price, the U.S. is oblivious and has suffered relatively zero negative consequences for the massive havoc, death, and misery it wreaked (and currently wreaks) on the whole region.

Well that's cause it was never actually about "helping" Chinese people. A "free" China to them is a China that is poor, easier to control/influence, not an economic threat and most importantly one that maintains American or western hegemony.
You're right. Economic disincentives aren't about "helping" China. That's not the point. It would be about pushing back in the mildest, most milquetoast way against genocide and ethnic cleansing. And bringing world attention to the abominations China is currently perpetrating in Xinjiang.

The OP is one of the most sensitive, rawest, most textured and thoughtful pieces I've ever read. But then, to see forumers - who used to openly deny, minimize, freak out as pointless any mention of China's current and active crimes against humanity until the mods appropriately squelched that - to see them exploit this thread to further propagate the idea that's it's futile and incorrect to speak out against or oppose freakin genocide, that's a soft peddle too far.

It's not about Chinese prosperity. An economically-flourishing China wielding inspirational, soft cultural power would be most welcome. I'd love the fuck out of that shit. China - as a conglomeration of centuries' old civilizations - is beautiful. It's the China - today - that's trying to annex parts of Asia it has no rightful fucking claim to, the China that's systematically trying to eradicate certain ethnic minorities within its borders: that's what the world needs to push back on. Burying those crimes - under the pretense - of fighting general anti-Asian sentiment. No way. Don't use the rest of us as cover for that bullshit.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
You're right. Economic disincentives aren't about "helping" China. That's not the point. It would be about pushing back in the mildest, most milquetoast way against genocide and ethnic cleansing. And bringing world attention to the abominations China is currently perpetrating in Xinjiang.
I don't disagree with the first part-- yeah, everyone knows that economic sanctions are about hurting people. It's a stick. You wanna pressure the government into changing by hurting.

But the last part is laughable. There's no way in hell most Westerners aren't aware of all the awful things going on in China. That's all we ever hear.

I personally don't care if people want to boycott Made in China products as a protest against the country. That's their right. I don't buy Chick-fil-A because I don't want to support the company. I think voting with your wallet is great.

I do think that actual economic sanctions most likely effect change if a government is afraid people will revolt if they're too poor. That being said, what would happen in the US if other countries decided to sanction us severely for undocumented immigrant children being put in camps, for all the unpunished murders of black Americans, for the Dakota pipeline? I don't see the government changing, and I don't see the American people changing their attitudes either tbh. We could have Great Depression levels of poverty from economic sanctions in the US and people here would STILL continue to be ignorant racists.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
It is the only peaceful way to hurt the CCP I think. By fueling their economy, we have been fueling the CCP more than the people it seems. The CCP is trying to buy their way through everything, as is also evident by the $2 billion they are pledging to "help" the world fight this virus - denying it originated there
But how do you think it will play out?
I feel the plan is always -
1. get China into a recession
2. ???
3. freedom on the march

p.s.
I don't think that providing funds to the WHO is a bad thing.

Well that's cause it was never actually about "helping" Chinese people. A "free" China to them is a China that is poor, easier to control/influence, not an economic threat and most importantly one that maintains American or western hegemony. I don't see people like him boycotting American made products despite the countless war crimes they've committed.
The people in American politics who drive the effort to start a full blown cold war China most certainly don't care about Chinese people. This shit is led by people like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, and they barely care about Americans.
But the US is amazingly good at persuading itself and its people that when it pick a fight with a country they're doing it to actually help the people we're about to hurt.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,907
I don't disagree with the first part-- yeah, everyone knows that economic sanctions are about hurting people. It's a stick. You wanna pressure the government into changing by hurting.

But the last part is laughable. There's no way in hell most Westerners aren't aware of all the awful things going on in China. That's all we ever hear.

I personally don't care if people want to boycott Made in China products as a protest against the country. That's their right. I don't buy Chick-fil-A because I don't want to support the company. I think voting with your wallet is great.
You're aware of it. It must feel like it's getting like a lot of airplay to you. For folks that feel a strong affinity with China, it must be so painful to read about it. Like stabs in the heart, because an ancestral homeland - especially when you're living as a minority in a different place - can have an almost sacred place of affection in a person's psyche.

But most folks are oblivious about what's happening there. Most of the planet is clueless about what China's perpetrating in Xinjiang. And because of that, China will likely succeed in its mission of ethnic and cultural annihilation. China puts a heck of a lot of effort in suppressing and distorting what's happening there. The CCP can't abide even the mildest diversion from its party lines. Members of this very forum have bought into the fiction that what's going on in Xinjiang is an "education" program or that it's not a "real" genocide, and have tried to argue that point.

When it's all over, if I'm still alive, I'll feel a lot of shame that I didn't do anything to help, but I honestly feel so helpless about the atrocities there. But at least, I'll know I didn't succumb to the insidious pressure being placed on Asians and the Asian diaspora - including and especially pressure placed upon those of Chinese descent - to act as a propaganda defense force for China's crimes against humanity -- all under a fallacious pretense of Asian solidarity.

I do think that actual economic sanctions most likely effect change if a government is afraid people will revolt if they're too poor. That being said, what would happen in the US if other countries decided to sanction us severely for undocumented immigrant children being put in camps, for all the unpunished murders of black Americans, for the Dakota pipeline? I don't see the government changing, and I don't see the American people changing their attitudes either tbh. We could have Great Depression levels of poverty from economic sanctions in the US and people here would STILL continue to be ignorant racists.
In the first part of my post, I said I'd support economic penalties against the U.S. for the atrocities it commits - especially current atrocities. And I'd include environmental injustice - like withdrawing from the Paris Agreement - as a righteous reason for economic penalties levied against the U.S. Also, if it means we - as a society - become more resistant to the murders of Black and Brown Americans by law enforcement, a Great Depression sounds like what we're due.
 
Last edited:

Sayre

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
728
But at least, I'll know I didn't succumb to the insidious pressure being placed on Asians and the Asian diaspora - including and especially pressure placed upon those of Chinese descent - to act as a propaganda defense force for China's crimes against humanity -- all under the fallacious pretense of Asian solidarity.
I agree with the rest of your post but just wanted to address this. I'm not sure if you are experiencing that elsewhere or in this forum but I don't think that's the intent in this thread. (Thought I don't want to speak for other people)

No one is saying to defend everything China. I certainly don't. But I'm starting to become more defensive whenever I see China=Bad posts. To me, I feel like people were more pointing out the hypocrisy. You can criticize china for all the atrocities, but don't in the same sentence say that the US should sanction them as if we have the right. I completely agree with you and condemn China's actions against the muslim minority. Or their bullying of Taiwan/HK, or countless others. I also don't feel the need to have to post that every time I defend China on something.

Not everything China does is bad, but in this forum I get that sense whenever China gets brought up.. even when talking about the people. There is this growing anti-China sentiment in the west. it's especially made worse with the coronavirus and with our president blaming the pandemic on the CCP's handling of the virus. Doesn't matter that our handling of the virus was arguably worse.

And real people are being affected because of it. I see news stories of increases of violence against Asian Americans.. including a family being stabbed including a 2 year old at Costco because they looked Chinese. I have personally been shouted at just because I look Chinese. It doesn't matter that I'm not. Anyone that looks Asian is effectively Chinese.

So yes, I'm on the defensive because I don't want things to get worse. I'm going to call out racism when I see it. That doesn't make me a China shill.

Anyway I'm starting to ramble but Wandering posted my thoughts much more eloquently than I ever could.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,907
I want to emphasize something. I'm NOT giving a blanket free-for-all anyone to spew bigoted anti-Asian, anti-Chinese rhetoric.

Anti-Asian racism, prejudice, sentiment is real and is bubbling up in increasingly more violent, harmful, dangerous ways all around the world. Into ful-blown hate crimes. I also see that sometimes the conversation about China can veer into unfair bigotry and an excuse to flex anti-Chinese and anti-Asian racism, here and everywhere.

When I see something that reads as anti-Asian bigotry or racism to me - and no one else has replied to it yet - I will and have challenged it. For instance, forumers using "Asian" as a punchline to a joke. Or someone writing in "broken English" to mock Chinese accents. I also report it to the mods, and so far, the mods have reacted promptly and been properly responsive to those kinds of complaints. My participation in this thread is not to discount or excuse this kind of anti-Asian bigotry.

What I disagree with is the co-opting of legitimate grievances about anti-Asian/anti-Chinese bigotry as a way to propagate and promote Chinese ultranationlist talking points. I strongly disgree that - in the face of genocide - China possibly suffering economic blowback is some unmentionable unacceptable point of discussion. That idea is offensive to me. Who cares if the Chinese middle class doesn't grow as fast as Xi wants it too? Fighting anti-Asian prejudice/racism doesn't mean we all become cheerleaders for the maximal rise of the Chinese nation-state no matter what wrong its government does.

Not everything China does is bad, but in this forum I get that sense whenever China gets brought up.. even when talking about the people. There is this growing anti-China sentiment in the west. it's especially made worse with the coronavirus and with our president blaming the pandemic on the CCP's handling of the virus. Doesn't matter that our handling of the virus was arguably worse.

And real people are being affected because of it. I see news stories of increases of violence against Asian Americans.. including a family being stabbed including a 2 year old at Costco because they looked Chinese. I have personally been shouted at just because I look Chinese. It doesn't matter that I'm not. Anyone that looks Asian is effectively Chinese.

So yes, I'm on the defensive because I don't want things to get worse. I'm going to call out racism when I see it. That doesn't make me a China shill.

Anyway I'm starting to ramble but Wandering posted my thoughts much more eloquently than I ever could.

I hear you. I think we have to be, in a way, surgical about this. Be loud and vocal against anti-Asian, anti-Chinese bigotry. But the Chinese ultranationalist p.o.v - the kind that justifies what's happening in Xinjiang as a means of nation-building (since U.S. had slavery, etc., then China should get to commit its "fair" share of atrocities too) - that has a way of invading and muddying legitimate discussion about anti-Asian/anti-Chinese biases. The Chinese ultranationalists need to respect the boundaries between them and Asians who don't hold that ultranationalist p.o.v. It starts subtly, but it's poisonous to the cause of fighting anti-Asian racism, when their ultranationalist perspectives start leaking through.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
papermoon - this is probably due to my own ignorance and confirmation bias, but I'm struggling to remember when economic sanctions worked to promote democratic ideals or to reverse crimes against humanity.

I'm thinking like NK, Russia, Middle East, South America.... honestly, when I think economic sanctions on countries where there's no democracy and no actual choice for government leadership... I'm not seeing how it actually changes anything.

Maybe because all the times sanctions have worked we never hear about it, but even then wouldn't it make more sense to levy them against a country that had a choice in their leadership? How exactly are Chinese citizens going to do anything?

I suppose there's also the theory that the rich ruling class that props up the single party government will pressure the figurehead to stop all these things if it hurts their wallets. Again, I suppose that could happen. I honestly don't know about international economic history to say that it never worked. I just can't remember hearing about when it did.
 

gully state

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,989
What I disagree with is the co-opting of legitimate grievances about anti-Asian/anti-Chinese bigotry as a way to propagate and promote Chinese ultranationlist talking points. I strongly disgree that - in the face of genocide - China possibly suffering economic blowback is some unmentionable unacceptable point of discussion. That idea is offensive to me. Who cares if the Chinese middle class doesn't grow as fast as Xi wants it too? Fighting anti-Asian prejudice/racism doesn't mean we all become cheerleaders for the maximal rise of the Chinese nation-state no matter what wrong its government does.

Who are you talking about? Who are you talking to here? I don't see any of that here in this thread. No one here in this thread has problems with criticizing the CCP for their atrocities. That said, China is not just the CCP and their base.

I hear you. I think we have to be, in a way, surgical about this. Be loud and vocal against anti-Asian, anti-Chinese bigotry. But the Chinese ultranationalist p.o.v - the kind that justifies what's happening in Xinjiang as a means of nation-building (since U.S. had slavery, etc., then China should get to commit its "fair" share of atrocities too) - that has a way of invading and muddying legitimate discussion about anti-Asian/anti-Chinese biases. The Chinese ultranationalists need to respect the boundaries between them and Asians who don't hold that ultranationalist p.o.v. It starts subtly, but it's poisonous to the cause of fighting anti-Asian racism, when their ultranationalist perspectives start leaking through.

Not our responsibility to legitimize their rhetoric. How about you be more surgical with your words? China and CCP are not interchangeable. You want to be critical and more precise? Criticize the government specifically and not a term representing the people, the land, its culture and dynastic history. For example, Fuck China is messy and imprecise as countless people have pointed out in this thread and it only serves to further help legitimize the CCP's "mandate of heaven" by promoting an us vs them narrative for the CCP and those under their rule. It also gives xenophobes the ok to practice their bigotry.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,907
papermoon - this is probably due to my own ignorance and confirmation bias, but I'm struggling to remember when economic sanctions worked to promote democratic ideals or to reverse crimes against humanity.

I'm thinking like NK, Russia, Middle East, South America.... honestly, when I think economic sanctions on countries where there's no democracy and no actual choice for government leadership... I'm not seeing how it actually changes anything.

Maybe because all the times sanctions have worked we never hear about it, but even then wouldn't it make more sense to levy them against a country that had a choice in their leadership? How exactly are Chinese citizens going to do anything?

I suppose there's also the theory that the rich ruling class that props up the single party government will pressure the figurehead to stop all these things if it hurts their wallets. Again, I suppose that could happen. I honestly don't know about international economic history to say that it never worked. I just can't remember hearing about when it did.

Iran. The 2015 Iran Nuclear Deal. The U.S. then withdrew from that deal, but the agreement came into being - in major part - because Iran wanted relief from oil and financial sanctions.

I'm not even advocating for sanctions btw. What I disagree with is automatically treating the idea of economic consequences as an unspeakably taboo topic when you're dealing with the genocide being perpetrated by the People's Republic of China. An economic slowdown would not be a grievous, unjust wrong when it comes to addressing crimes against humanity.

You mentioned Great Depression upthread. As you probably already know, with Covid-19, we're in the middle and on the verge of even more serious global economic pain. Sanctions are not happening, in any case. There are a variety of different types of sanctions. But with trade sanctions, especially, with everything intertwined and retaliations, all economies involved suffer, and the world doesn't have an appetite for that.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,907
Who are you talking about? Who are you talking to here? I don't see any of that here in this thread. No one here in this thread has problems with criticizing the CCP for their atrocities. That said, China is not just the CCP and their base.



Not our responsibility to legitimize their rhetoric. How about you be more surgical with your words? China and CCP are not interchangeable. You want to be critical and more precise? Criticize the government specifically and not a term representing the people, the land, its culture and dynastic history. For example, Fuck China is messy and imprecise as countless people have pointed out in this thread and it only serves to further help legitimize the CCP's "mandate of heaven" by promoting an us vs them narrative for the CCP and those under their rule. It also gives xenophobes the ok to practice their bigotry.

What am I referring to? The sell that economic consequences as a response to genocidal state activities is a moral or unethical wrong. That's offensive and attempts to minimize the depravity of what's going on in Xinjiang.

The PRC it is, then. People's Republic of China. But funny, how you didn't quibble at all with all the pro-PRC takes in this thread that solely and repeatedly referred to that nation as "China." I guess I gave too much deference to the PRC's mandate that they are the one, true China and was lulled by everyone else's "mistake". My bad.

edit: also, super-generous of you to not call me out for referring to American atrocities as being committed by the "U.S." as opposed to the U.S. government, etc.

Don't bring "FC" up to me. I have never ever said that shit. Don't try to conflate what I said with that bullshit. This is the kind of dishonest co-opting I'm talking about. Look forward to you correcting all the posters in this thread about their improper use of the term "China."
 
Last edited:

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Iran is still committing human rights abuse and its people aren't exactly doing well...they are poor and suffering. The majority still live in poverty. Not to mention, Iran had no power relative to the US.

I don't think of sanctions as a taboo. I do think the majority of people who scream for sanctions and boycotts aren't doing so with any nuance. IMO, most of it is either hypocrisy or dogwhistling.

*edit: I think we can agree that we're both aware that we're not arguing literal semantics of using countries as shorthand for their governments because it's not being done as a dogwhistle or unconscious manifestation of bigotry.
 

The Masked Mufti

The Wise Ones
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,989
Scotland
Yep, I remember in Middle school in the states, I tried to tell a teacher that I was being bullied by racist, and she didn't believe me because the other people didn't call me Chink or any other slurs. So when I went home, and told my parents, they went back to the school, met the principle, and pulled me from that class.

Hint: She was white.

To alot of white people, it's not racism unless you call them by whatever racial slur or make it super obvious, and even then, they will try to deflect, turn a blind eye, call you overly sensitive ect.
Fuck me, that reminds me of primary school. I spent years getting racially bullied by the same group. And whenever I brought it up to the teachers it, it was treated like I was making a big deal. I take so much pleasure in knowing that most of those guys grew up to be junkies.