The way we talk about China

[messiaen]

Fair point, and a good reminder for me to check up on additional academic sources to see if anything more recent has come up outside of mainstream political sources.

My intent was trying to illustrate more of your second point, in that just having a conversation is so much more helpful than being reactionary, or to move past a superficial understanding of the culture. I may also be projecting my own habits, but it's easy to see how we can get trapped as well, when we ourselves don't make use of this freedom to examine outside sources.

My anecdotal experience is less academic and more in terms of globalized business experiences - my previous employment included Chinese of all sorts - Taiwan, Mainland, HK, etc. (actually I am surprised, because it felt like nearly a third or quarter of the overall staff had Chinese roots, which I find rare in Canada), and including the various partners we would meet across Asia (not solely China) on various design projects, creating a lot of exposure to various Asian cultures. While it might be politeness from a business perspective, it was also at least a good common ground to have discussions, away from purely what's being blasted in headlines both in the media on this side of the hemisphere and over there. When it did become an issue where something more politically sensitive would be discussed, the locals always had a number of creative alternatives to get around it.

I admit the only one time I actually did have an eye roll moment was from a mainland Chinese colleague in regards to local building codes and their statement of how much more precise it was than North American, Japanese and European standards from a technical perspective, but even in that respect those are developing very quickly.

Click to shrink...

Yes, agree with you there. Things are getting more hyper-partisan, not just within the US but aboard in global relations too. Curious, was your experience in BC? I know the Vancouver area has a big population of Chinese/Taiwanese/HKers, right?

As far as I see it the biggest issue with the reactionary style, is something I think the left is way more guilty of, which is that a vast swath of people right now care only about virtue signaling. So, a lot of people don't want to have that conversation and only care about being morally correct/superior, because A) they get to feel good about themselves, get woke dollars from their friends and B) They don't actually have to know anything or have any vested interest in what they're virtue signaling (like 3/4th of era if I'm being honest). It's harder to talk to these people and trying to broaden their view because they're much more dismissive toward having an intellectual debate, because all that matters are the brownie points which totally eviscerates any nuance from the conversation. And in a world with 8 billion people, nuance is the sauce of the day, so we really need to bring people back and remove their ambivalence toward honest intellectual debates. You really have to be on the ball and be motivated for these discussions. So many people will default to the tired diversions of strawman, no true scotsman, whataboutism, etc. because it's easy. But we try and we have to call them out on their bullshit, politely.

Haha, yeah. I would guess experience in the business world may be a little less revealing, politically speaking. Have you seen the Chapelle's Show episode where the whiteface 'boss' character is talking to Dave about sex with his wife and Dave tries to talk about politics? Haha Is it accurate?

crazillo, awesome post. Thanks for sharing. I'm pretty interested in hearing more about granular level details about the education system changes. My wife was born in 1989, so she would have been one of the first classes to have seen those reforms.

I absolutely do not agree with that, especially not the bolded, and I think it's highly problematic to talk about Chinese people in terms like hive mind.

Click to shrink...

You're completely ignoring the central thesis of their statement which is that opposition voices are being silenced. Not that they don't exist, but due to the hyper-surveillance, the social credit system and increasingly harsher penalties for speaking out against the CCP, they're scared to speak their mind.

Couple this with the rhetoric coming from the state media and you have nationalism that continues to feel more emboldened.

 

[Pet]

Funny, I was going to hold a public talk on mutual perception between Mainland Chinese, Taiwanese and Hongkong people in June. And it got cancelled due to Covid-19 :/

I work as a China scholar and very much welcome this thread. I'll just add a tidbit here. We like to use the term "Greater China" in our research and teaching. We do not only teach on the Politics, History and Culture of the Mainland, but always include Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore and other oversea Chinese communities by default. It has served us great because it really raises eyebrows from our students when they learn how different "China" can be. Many other universities, particularly in the UK or US, don't do that. I've learned that (for financial reasons) they can only offer classes that have high student numbers. And so even many university students never learn how diverse these societies really are! Also, There's super few professorships on anything but mainland politics out there (we actually have one of the few with us).

I always do an experiment with my students when I get to know them. Write down anything you know about the PRC, Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore on a piece of paper. You'll be astonished how different the results will be for each country. Anything with the PRC has to do either with the economy, political power or historical greatness. Almost nothing will be there on Chinese people, how they live, what they feel. From their answers, it appears very much a monolithic great power and a threat that they don't really understand well enough. They usually have much fewer ideas about Hongkong or Taiwan, unless they still had the protests on their mind. Taiwan's 2014 Sunflower Movement for instance is already forgotten by new students, while Hongkong's protests are still present. But if you had done this ten years ago, perceptions on Hongkong would merely have exceeded financial Centre, business elites and former British colony and one country-two systems. For Taiwan, they will know very little when they start out, including the great threat to its very survival. It's astonishing. But if they know something, it'll be much more about the society, including same-sex marriage or how Taiwan cherishes its democracy.

They come out of our classes with so much more knowledge, and it really helps them. It's a great feeling every year. And it's the most miserable one, because I feel many things we do in the undergraduate level should actually be part of a good school curriculum. These students often come with no knowledge on the most important region of the 21st century that is East Asia, as many have called it. I wish the broader people had a baseline understanding on how to relate to "China" because not everyone will go for a Chinese Studies major.

I firmly believe beyond open and blatant racism, the sheer uninformedness about China through our education system additionally complicates things in our societies.

Obviously, the unitarian claim by the CCP that only they can define what China means is very strongly entrenched into our collective memory by now. And unfortunately, they have been very successful with it on a global scale, I'd argue. No wonder when the One China Principle basically binds all foreign governments to this as well. Despite some important international support for Taiwan by certain US congress politicians and also for Hongkong, most of the world was and is very silent when China again launches one of its nationalistic foreign policy "initiatives" or once again threatens societies that are so close to our western values. It's a real shame. Chinese nationalism in combination with the image that foreigners will always want to harm China to note have its rightful place in the world (like they did in the past, which is correct btw) is a really dangerous prospect for the future, because in combination with other countries also becoming more and more nationalist, this can and will disrupt international relations even further. I've written on this, PM me if you want to learn more.

Then there is the level of how you as an individual citizen relate to governmental action. I'll discuss both mainlanders and then those who were born abroad and today are Americans or Swedish like everyone else, just with some ties to China that can define them more strongly or not.

As for Mainland Chinese: I've personally also noticed that you never ever should extend overarching political behavior towards a normal citizen and a single human being. Yes, there can be situations where we rally to defend "our nation", particularly if we feel it gets unfairly threatened from outside. But this is a totally different thing from saying that everyone supports what the Chinese government is doing. What I will say though, especially the Tibet - Taiwan - Xinjiang (or Japan-related) topics are super sensitive even with well-educated mainlanders. I'd always advise to not talk too much about these things unless you know these people really well. This also has to do with how China has changed history education in the 1990s to instill a much stronger nationalistic and "patriotic" tone. I've also worked on that topic in case you want some further reading recommendations.

This is a different layer of things from when you were born in another country but look Asian, of course. Identity is a fucking complicated thing, full of contradictory emotions and always in relation to others in society and the political landscape. Being born in another country, one's values will be heavily impacted by the system they have grown up with, and hell yes, this will be a radically different image from the one the CCP likes to portray. I just hate when stupid people will either make your responsible for something you have no business with or when they portray their negative images on you. Just shitty and way too-far spread in today's society. I hope we humans one day can become better, but I doubt it.

Click to shrink...

I've always been fascinated hearing the perspective of academics that are non-native to the culture they study. Thank you!

 

[Chikor]

You're completely ignoring the central thesis of their statement which is that opposition voices are being silenced. Not that they don't exist, but due to the hyper-surveillance, the social credit system and increasingly harsher penalties for speaking out against the CCP, they're scared to speak their mind.

Couple this with the rhetoric coming from the state media and you have nationalism that continues to feel more emboldened.

Click to shrink...

I'm not ignoring it, I am disagreeing with it.
Talking with Chinese people, be it in China, outside China or on the internet (including this forum), I have never ever got the sense that they all think or speak the same. I don't think this is true for any people anywhere really. And I think talking about Chinese people in a language that robs them of their individual humanity is problematic.

p.s.
The social credit system has nothing to do with any of that on any level.

 

[messiaen]

I'm not ignoring it, I am disagreeing with it.
Talking with Chinese people, be it in China, outside China or on the internet (including this forum), I have never ever got the sense that they all think or speak the same. I don't think this is true for any people anywhere really. And I think talking about Chinese people in a language that robs them of their individual humanity is problematic.

p.s.
The social credit system has nothing to do with any of that on any level.

Click to shrink...

So you're more interested in word policing than having a conversation about the surveillance state, ultra-nationalistic ideology and rhetoric or the humanitarian crisis that is the social credit system and how all of this relates to the oppression of progressive voices in China? I know people that have gotten arrested and interviewed by the police for shit they said on WeChat. Not able to buy a plane ticket because of it. Like , the social credit system has nothing to do with oppression and the shaping of the mind? Are you kidding? Have you read much on how prison systems and the criminal justice shape the mind of the prisoner? I think you're being way too dismissive of the unique position Chinese citizens find themselves in at the moment.

 

[kmfdmpig]

I'm not ignoring it, I am disagreeing with it.
Talking with Chinese people, be it in China, outside China or on the internet (including this forum), I have never ever got the sense that they all think or speak the same. I don't think this is true for any people anywhere really. And I think talking about Chinese people in a language that robs them of their individual humanity is problematic.

p.s.
The social credit system has nothing to do with any of that on any level.

Click to shrink...

I read the post in question differently. I think they're saying people do have a range of beliefs but fear had led some to be more muted, particularly online, due to fear.

 

[Pet]

Speaking of this topic, there is a real time thread going on right now about this and it's entertaining as hell.

 

[Chikor]

So you're more interested in word policing than having a conversation about the surveillance state, ultra-nationalistic ideology and rhetoric or the humanitarian crisis that is the social credit system and how all of this relates to the oppression of progressive voices in China? I know people that have gotten arrested and interviewed by the police for shit they said on WeChat. Not able to buy a plane ticket because of it. Like , the social credit system has nothing to do with oppression and the shaping of the mind? Are you kidding? Have you read much on how prison systems and the criminal justice shape the mind of the prisoner? I think you're being way too dismissive of the unique position Chinese citizens find themselves in at the moment.

Click to shrink...

I am concerned about the way people talk about Chinese people, yes.
I'm not saying it's the only issue we should talk about, you're making quite a jump there. It's just like saying that I don't like it when white people say the n word does not mean I think there are no other problems in the US.

p.s.
I have seen many crazy things in China, I have never ever met a Chinese person who gave a single fuck about the social credit system on a personal level.
Not one.
Maybe it was just blind luck.

I read the post in question differently. I think they're saying people do have a range of beliefs but fear had led some to be more muted, particularly online, due to fear.

Click to shrink...

In my experience, Chinese people have a wide range of beliefs about a whole lot of subjects and they're generally know how to express them.

 

[crazillo]

crazillo, awesome post. Thanks for sharing. I'm pretty interested in hearing more about granular level details about the education system changes. My wife was born in 1989, so she would have been one of the first classes to have seen those reforms.

Click to shrink...

Sure thing!
If you want something on collective memory in general, there are a ton of good authors for that. Maurice Halbwachs, Pierre Nora or Jan Assmann for example. I'd recommend the Collective Memory Reader by Jeffrey Olick.

Then there are those like me who are mainly interested in how memory and (political) power are connected. I'll keep it short, but a good starting point would be Vamik Volkan (1997) and his take on chosen glories and chosen traumas. The word "chosen" implies that remembering is always constructed by society. But of course, this negotiations process of how we want to remember works very differently in a single-party state where the latter also is the dominant political AND social force.

For China's patriotic education campaign, we can basically say that China after the Tian'anmen protests had sought new sources of legitmacy for its rule. The old socialist stuff didn't work out anymore, and they were scared to share the UdSSR's fate. Believe it or not, when China was in deep conflict with the UdSSR, not only did it ally quite closely with the "west", but also with Japan! Post-Tian'anmen, this changed a lot as we know. What they did is making sure the CCP is portrayed sort of as the savior of the Chinese nation from foreign humiliation both in the past, in the present and in the future. But as always with nationalism, this can cause much danger later on. It will rally everybody behind you, but you will also have to live up to those narratives. Chinese history text books have changed considerably, and they spend a much longer time on studying Japanese war crimes today, for instance. Of course Japan has its own VERY troublesome view on history, and this doesn't help.

A good book for a more general and comparative Asian view would be offered by History Textbook and the Wars in Asia: Divided Memories by Shin and Sneider (with my good friend of mine also contributing). There is also newer stuff on the latest history textbook. I've heard that they've gone back to one textbook for the whole country, tells you a lot about how "unified" they want their view on history to be.

And yes, we can argue about how we as individuals all form our own opinions, but reading through these texts you'd find how much the societies we grow up in determine what we think, feel and believe even if we have a free will. And history education is a strong part of that shared identity we still tend to develop - and ultimately that's set by the state.

For China's Patriotic Education Campaign starting in the 1990s specifically, you can for example look at Wang Zheng (2008): National Humiliation, History Education, and the Politics of Historical Memory: Patriotic Education Campaign in China.

There's also one of my favourite articles by Haiyang Yu (2014) on how China nowadays tends to glorify its imperial past, what problems this might entail and how popular history is commodified in the country: Glorious Memories of Imperial China and the Rise of Chinese Populist Nationalism

If you are interested in how one single historical event can serve many purposes in China, I can recommend Paul Cohen's famous History in Three Keys: The Boxers as Event, Experience, and Myth. Basically, what politicians in all systems do is mythologizing historical events to serve their present needs and purposes.

I personally have mostly worked on how nationalism in education in China can actually have for effects on Chinese foreign policy. I wrote mostly on the Sino-Japanese relations in the Diaoyu/Senkaku conflict. A good article on that is James Reilly's (2014) piece on A Wave to Worry About: Public opinion, foreign policy and China's anti-Japan protests. There's as much stuff on the conflicts in the South China Sea, e.g. by Malik (2013): Historical Fiction: China's South China Sea Claims. Further, there is more recent stuff that looks at these questions under the aspect of Sino-American rivalry. Anyway, these all and the conflict with Taiwan are lingering but unfortunately have the potential to become a true global crisis one day. And here is the most scary part: As China has educated a number of generations with certain historical images, any sort of compromise in severe territorial disputes seems unlikely to impossible. They'd basically be eroding their very self-created legitimacy if they backed off too much and people could quickly turn against them. Which is why I can feel for the OP's wish for Taiwan, Hongkong and Mainland China, but I'm skeptical for the time being :/

Greetings to your wife! Let me know what she thinks about all of this stuff. I've worked in a Chinese school before btw. Was truly fascinating. But China has changed a lot since... I really miss the place it was when I first visited in 2008.

I'll keep it at for now :) If you can't access some of the links, I can send the articles to you through other ways .

PS: Henry's Kissinger's On China is awesome, too!

I've always been fascinated hearing the perspective of academics that are non-native to the culture they study. Thank you!

Click to shrink...

No worries mate, finally I can put some of the stuff I know something about to use on ERA :D

 

[Kaseoki]

I absolutely do not agree with that, especially not the bolded, and I think it's highly problematic to talk about Chinese people in terms like hive mind.

Click to shrink...

Is there a better way to describe it then? I'm honestly asking for suggestions. Because even those sitting on the opposing side agree that the ultra-nationalists are slowly becoming the only voice in the mainstream.

I am concerned about the way people talk about Chinese people, yes.
I'm not saying it's the only issue we should talk about, you're making quite a jump there. It's just like saying that I don't like it when white people say the n word does not mean I think there are no other problems in the US.

p.s.
I have seen many crazy things in China, I have never ever met a Chinese person who gave a single fuck about the social credit system on a personal level.
Not one.
Maybe it was just blind luck.


In my experience, Chinese people have a wide range of beliefs about a whole lot of subjects and they're generally know how to express them.

Click to shrink...

Sure Chinese people have a wide range of beliefs. But they aren't going to talk bad about politics or Xi on Weibo unless they're ready to go to prison. And the other posters are right. I don't mean that Chinese people ARE a hive mind. That's just silly. I'm saying because dissident opinions are being shut down its starting to SOUND like a hive mind. You would have the same if you shut down all anti-Trump speech and America would also start to sound the same. That's not to say they are monolithic and all think the same.

 

[Chikor]

Is there a better way to describe it then? I'm honestly asking for suggestions. Because even those sitting on the opposing side agree that the ultra-nationalists are slowly becoming the only voice in the mainstream.

Click to shrink...

Better way than hive mind?
Yeah, your post right here for example.

I am not sure I agree with you here on the substance here (what you're saying is kinda broad), but I think it's way better to discuss nationalism in China than talking about brainwashing and hive mind.
I think such terminology is always problematic when talking about people from other countries, and when they come to Asian, they have a specific, problematic history.

 

[Deleted member 2328]

p.s.
I have seen many crazy things in China, I have never ever met a Chinese person who gave a single fuck about the social credit system on a personal level.
Not one.
Maybe it was just blind luck.

Click to shrink...

I just find it ironic that I was reading your comment while I'm watching a French documentary following the lives of those in the black list of the social credit system.

EDIT: Nevermind, it's actually from CNA. I thought it was French because a lot of documentaries airing recently at this timeslot are produced in France.

Found it on-line:

China's Social Credit Lab

Get Real investigates a bold social experiment in China, where good behaviour gets rewarded and undesirable acts face consequences.

www.channelnewsasia.com

 

[Kaseoki]

Better way than hive mind?
Yeah, your post right here for example.

I am not sure I agree with you here on the substance here (what you're saying is kinda broad), but I think it's way better to discuss nationalism in China than talking about brainwashing and hive mind.
I think such terminology is always problematic when talking about people from other countries, and when they come to Asian, they have a specific, problematic history.

Click to shrink...

Better way than hive mind?
Yeah, your post right here for example.

I am not sure I agree with you here on the substance here (what you're saying is kinda broad), but I think it's way better to discuss nationalism in China than talking about brainwashing and hive mind.
I think such terminology is always problematic when talking about people from other countries, and when they come to Asian, they have a specific, problematic history.

Click to shrink...

The issue with describing it as simply "ultra-nationalist" is that there is always a depiction or assumption that an opposing left side exists. But such a thing doesn't exist in authoritarian states such as China. Even more so in China because of the state surveillance and the inability to even pass on information now (WeChat deletes and stops the message from being delivered to the receiver if they believe it is harmful). At least in authoritarian states like North Korea, messages, notes, and testimonials of those opposing the state are quite numerous. This is not the same for China (or is very rare and quickly scrubbed from the Chinese internet). Even those who leave China and oppose the Chinese government prefer not to talk about it at all, and simply stay quiet on the issue.

Ultra-nationalist echo chamber? I'm not very creative with my words I'm afraid.

And about your anecdotes of people speaking out. I do believe that this is generally tied to your job and ability to push ideas. Those who are in academia and journalism will generally not say anything to offend the government. Whereas your auntie from the local restaurant are hardly targets for arrest if they shout some slanders about the government.

 

[Puppulent Succulent]

PS: Henry's Kissinger's On China is awesome, too!

Click to shrink...

THANK YOU for this reference. I read this when it came out, and I thought it was a really illuminating perspective, but I never brought it up here as a reference because many ERA users immediately note the author and jump to grand assumptions before understanding the value of this particular text (much less asking them to actually read it). I'm still wary of this because of how controversial a Kissinger reference is.

 

[crazillo]

THANK YOU for this reference. I read this when it came out, and I thought it was a really illuminating perspective, but I never brought it up here as a reference because many ERA users immediately note the author and jump to grand assumptions before understanding the value of this particular text (much less asking them to actually read it). I'm still wary of this because of how controversial a Kissinger reference is.

Click to shrink...

It's just a good book (though not perfect). I mostly added it to the post because all the other stuff is not so easy to just jump into, especially if you don't have a good understanding of everything that collective memory entails. On China is just a good starting point to learn something about China in general, especially why it sees itself in the place it wants to have in the world (again). And after this book, you can dig deeper if you are interested. Had a whole class on it when I was a student. And my lecturer (a historian who I owe so much to) was fluent in Chinese and Russian and his focus is ideology, he surely knew his stuff! I know many politicians write books that are not interesting, but Kissinger was a key factor in shaping US-Chinese relations and he understands the country a lot better than most. Though there are still some mysteries around the establishment of diplomatic relations in the 1970s also after this book, but that's a different topic :D

 

[Chikor]

The issue with describing it as simply "ultra-nationalist" is that there is always a depiction or assumption that an opposing left side exists. But such a thing doesn't exist in authoritarian states such as China. Even more so in China because of the state surveillance and the inability to even pass on information now (WeChat deletes and stops the message from being delivered to the receiver if they believe it is harmful). At least in authoritarian states like North Korea, messages, notes, and testimonials of those opposing the state are quite numerous. This is not the same for China (or is very rare and quickly scrubbed from the Chinese internet). Even those who leave China and oppose the Chinese government prefer not to talk about it at all, and simply stay quiet on the issue.

Ultra-nationalist echo chamber? I'm not very creative with my words I'm afraid.

And about your anecdotes of people speaking out. I do believe that this is generally tied to your job and ability to push ideas. Those who are in academia and journalism will generally not say anything to offend the government. Whereas your auntie from the local restaurant are hardly targets for arrest if they shout some slanders about the government.

Click to shrink...

I don't exactly know what "ultra nationalist" mean to you, but I lived in the UK, the US and China, and I don't think the population is uniquely nationalist in China.
I think it's pretty much the same everywhere, you have some people who are super jingoistic and rah rah we're #1 shit, you have some people who really hate that stuff, and the majority are somewhere in between - they have some things they don't like about their country but they generally don't hate it nor do they want to burn the whole thing down.
I don't know, maybe we can talk about the degrees of nationalism in each country, I don't know if we have great ways to measure it, but it's something we can try to do.
My issue is with talking about Chinese people as thing singular monolith blob that all believe and act the same way, and I think this is really far from the truth.

I think those type of generalizations on a group of people that size pretty much always miss the mark, but I think we need to be extra careful when we talk about Asians like that, because there is a really problematic history of talking about people from there like a horde of automatons rather than individual human beings.

 

[crazillo]

I don't exactly know what "ultra nationalist" mean to you, but I lived in the UK, the US and China, and I don't think the population is uniquely nationalist in China.
I think it's pretty much the same everywhere, you have some people who are super jingoistic and rah rah we're #1 shit, you have some people who really hate that stuff, and the majority are somewhere in between - they have some things they don't like about their country but they generally don't hate it nor do they want to burn the whole thing down.
I don't know, maybe we can talk about the degrees of nationalism in each country, I don't know if we have great ways to measure it, but it's something we can try to do.
My issue is with talking about Chinese people as thing singular monolith blob that all believe and act the same way, and I think this is really far from the truth.

I think those type of generalizations on a group of people that size pretty much always miss the mark, but I think we need to be extra careful when we talk about Asians like that, because there is a really problematic history of talking about people from there like a horde of automatons rather than individual human beings.

Click to shrink...

Well, I tried to elaborate a bit on this in my posts, but I might add something briefly. I like to stick to scientific methods and theories. They can never grasp reality 100%, and they will highlight certain explanations they believe to be explaining reality better while neglecting other things. But in the end, they shall help us to make sense of the mess human societies are :D What I've described above is mostly social constructivism, which is about social interaction and says that individuals claim their knowledge through interaction with others. Now when it comes to certain views on history, nations etc., you need to ask who's got the authority to create a narrative. And this is first and foremost the state and it's institutions that does so through history education and other things. We can debate a long time how much capacity different political systems will have to push their narrative through. And we'll likely end up with a conclusion that the Chinese state, despite being challenged from social media etc. as well, still has very large power to create narratives - not only through education, but also through agenda-setting in the news etc. It's difficult to say how successful they exactly are, because there are ways to circumvent censorship. But there's research who has attempted to measure it, I think (not really my main interest).

I personally believe we all are conditioned and influenced by the society and environment we have grown up in. But Chinese education does really not develop critical thinking as much as we do in our systems, I can say that for sure. Taken together with the dominance of CCP, certain views, especially on the super sensitive sovereignty topics I mentioned, will be more uniform in the mainland than elsewhere (and this elsewhere includes Hongkong or Taiwan, obviously!). This can be very different for many other issues. For a long time, government criticism was a super common thing in China, expressed on many fronts. Chinese people just knew that they had to pinpoint concrete issues and not threaten CCP rule with it, otherwise they'd be in danger. But that's just another part of learning the rules of the game in the system you've grown up in. At the moment, you have to be more careful, but it really depends again. Once another "corrupt" cadre has been found by the system, the floodgate for criticism is opened. When you are a lawyer trying to strengthen civilians rights, things have become tougher for you in the last few years.

And once again, it's always important to differentiate, you're absolutely right on that front! Especially when we talk about people who have been socialized in totally different systems. That's cultural, not ethnical impact! Just like you can be exposed to new ideas and values later in your life, though people do not change as much anymore (unfortunately, in some cases).

 

[Pet]

crazillo When you say critical thinking, what are you referring to? I've always defined critical thinking as being able to extrapolate information unspoken but implied, and the ability to form a mental connection between Fact A and Fact B.

 

[Chikor]

Chinese education does really not develop critical thinking as much as we do in our systems, I can say that for sure.

Click to shrink...

I did not go to school in China, so I wouldn't know much about the ins and outs of it.
But if the implication from this is that Chinese people have a diminished capacity for critical thinking compared to people in the west then I strongly disagree.

 

[crazillo]

crazillo When you say critical thinking, what are you referring to? I've always defined critical thinking as being able to extrapolate information unspoken but implied, and the ability to form a mental connection between Fact A and Fact B.

Click to shrink...

I did not go to school in China, so I wouldn't know much about the ins and outs of it.
But if the implication from this is that Chinese people have a diminished capacity for critical thinking compared to people in the west then I strongly disagree.

Click to shrink...

I meant your ability to reflect on things, whether you are someone who looks deeper into stuff and will ask questions. We have a nice way of saying this in German, "kritisch und mündig". It means being informed and on the basis of that being critical (but not unfair) with the world.

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. But I never said "capacity". It's referring to the development of said skill! And like any other skill, it's something you actively need to and very well can acquire.

I've taught English at a Chinese school and also worked on history politics later as an academic. You certainly don't learn how to critically read a newspaper article there (though I think being competent with newspapers in general is a worldwide problem), politics as a class is still very much "CCP ideology studies" and history is taught in the ways I described earlier.

There are people who say in combination with the overwhelming dominance of the CCP, this creates for a society that we find in China with its relatively politically passive middle class today. Especially when it's economically successful.

Obviously, there are very different "Chinese" societies just next door where they also have to learn a lot of Chinese characters but will approach other subjects very differently!

 

[Pet]

Obviously, there are very different "Chinese" societies just next door where they also have to learn a lot of Chinese characters but will approach other subjects very differently!

Click to shrink...

Oh, how do those countries do it?

 

[Dodohunter15]

Mod Edit: Inappropriate content removed

 

[Chikor]

I meant your ability to reflect on things, whether you are someone who looks deeper into stuff and will ask questions. We have a nice way of saying this in German, "kritisch und mündig". It means being informed and on the basis of that being critical (but not unfair) with the world.

Click to shrink...

I most certainly don't agree that Chinese people have diminish capacity to reflect on things or ask questions.
You know, I'm old enough to remember when people used to say very similar things about the Japanese - they are all robots, they have no creativity, they have no curiosity, they only know how to copy etc.
I feel it was bullshit then and it's mostly bullshit now.

There are people who say in combination with the overwhelming dominance of the CCP, this creates for a society that we find in China with its relatively politically passive middle class today. Especially when it's economically successful.

Click to shrink...

I think most people in China are not revolutionaries for exactly the same reason most people are not revolutionaries in most countries.
I feel like a lot of people in west want them to start working right now on overthrowing their government and write a new constitution from scratch, and I don't think it's brainwashing, hivemind or their school system why most people are nor currently working toward that, it's way more prosaic.

 

[SilentPanda]

Mod Edit: Inappropriate content removed

Click to shrink...

??? Wrong topic?

 

[crazillo]

I most certainly don't agree that Chinese people have diminish capacity to reflect on things or ask questions.
You know, I'm old enough to remember when people used to say very similar things about the Japanese - they are all robots, they have no creativity, they have no curiosity, they only know how to copy etc.
I feel it was bullshit then and it's mostly bullshit now.


I think most people in China are not revolutionaries for exactly the same reason most people are not revolutionaries in most countries.
I feel like a lot of people in west want them to start working right now on overthrowing their government and write a new constitution from scratch, and I don't think it's brainwashing, hivemind or their school system why most people are nor currently working toward that, it's way more prosaic.

Click to shrink...

I have at no point said that people have "diminished capacity to reflect on things or ask questions". That sounds so wrong, like if they were not physically capable to do it. Don't put words in my mouth on something I've not even been remotely close to. I've said that China's education system and political system does not nurture critical thinking (as defined above) as a skill that you can learn and in parts suppresses people to express their opinion. I also stated that neighboring Hongkong and Taiwan are very different in that regard. And I've said that mainland Chinese vividly discuss many things but have to be wary in the public about it (certainly never said they are robots), and I've not even touched the creativity topic at all.

 

[Chikor]

I have at no point said that people have "diminished capacity to reflect on things or ask questions". That sounds so wrong, like if they were not physically capable to do it. Don't put words in my mouth on something I've not even been remotely close to. I've said that China's education system and political system does not nurture these skills and in parts suppresses people to express their opinion.

Click to shrink...

I was specifically talking about that -

"I meant your ability to reflect on things, whether you are someone who looks deeper into stuff and will ask questions".

I disagree with that, and I generally think that such broad generalizations about 1.4 billion people are pretty much always bad.

 

[crazillo]

I was specifically talking about that -

"I meant your ability to reflect on things, whether you are someone who looks deeper into stuff and will ask questions".

I disagree with that, and I generally think that such broad generalizations about 1.4 billion people are pretty much always bad.

Click to shrink...

I am talking about an education system and its impact on people (dependent variable), how it is designed and set up. Do I believe the education system has a strong impact on a lot of Chinese people? Yes. About 50% of the Chinese are still in rural areas which is quickly forgotten. Can I give you an exact number how big the impact is? No. If you read the sound research I quoted above or would measure public opinion on these very salient sovereignty issues and history issues that I touched upon, you'd find me confirmed. I also tried to explain why as a Chinese you have to be wary when to express your opinion, and how you learn how to do it in many ways while staying safe. They'll perceive injustice like you and me but will they express it in the same way? Depends.

As stated, I believe that the way systems are set up will impact people. That's my personal take on this, and for many other scholars who work with social constructivism. And I believe these systems also impact us in the west. It's just easier to develop critical thinking when this is encouraged by the political system.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I don't really know too much about the education in China, though I've heard that Chinese education prize systemic knowledge over how the western world values enterpise more. Coming up in the Singaporean education system and moving onto the Australian system and I do think there's something to Asian education systems relying more on repitition to impart knowledge.

Hell, look at Kumon. Kumon is so popular in Asian circles despite being shown to be a pretty inferior way of learning mathematics as it doesn't really teach you to break out and use mathematical principles in real life scenarios.

 

[Kaseoki]

I was specifically talking about that -

"I meant your ability to reflect on things, whether you are someone who looks deeper into stuff and will ask questions".

I disagree with that, and I generally think that such broad generalizations about 1.4 billion people are pretty much always bad.

​

Click to shrink...

​

I don't really know too much about the education in China, though I've heard that Chinese education prize systemic knowledge over how the western world values enterpise more. Coming up in the Singaporean education system and moving onto the Australian system and I do think there's something to Asian education systems relying more on repitition to impart knowledge.

Hell, look at Kumon. Kumon is so popular in Asian circles despite being shown to be a pretty inferior way of learning mathematics as it doesn't really teach you to break out and use mathematical principles in real life scenarios.

Click to shrink...

Agreed with the posts about critical thinking. Or at least how the West views critical thinking anyway. I have encountered many Koreans during my undergraduate degree in the UK and they would admit that they did not know or understand how to write and structure an essay because the only thing they had learnt to do was rote learning and ticking boxes for multiple choice tests. They would ask for a lot of help just trying to put their thoughts down on paper. But in the end it was just information, there was little or no analysis when it came to essay writing. They prized knowledge over deeper critical thinking. Not to say that they don't possess it at all. They needed to train that ability. Because the only process they knew was 'how to get the correct answer'.

I even met a Korean graduate student who came to do research on critical thinking and the lack of it in educations systems across Asia, so it's definitely something that Asians themselves see and critcize about their own education systems.

And yes, while Chinese people do have their own thoughts and opinions, they rarely ask why or the deeper why. Because they simply weren't trained and brought up that way in school. You didn't need to think why the Cultural Revolution happened. You just memorized the reasons given in the textbook. This stems partly from Confucian education techniques in Asia, but also to ensure that people don't question the authority and information that is presented to them by the higher ups which is perfect for an authoritarian regime like the CCP.

 

[messiaen]

Sure thing!

PS: Henry's Kissinger's On China is awesome, too!

Click to shrink...

Awesome. Thanks for the articles. I have so many reservations about the war criminal that is Henry Kissinger, but his books are normally a good read, at least! I'll have to verify that I can open those JSTOR links. My school is an arts school and only uses a specific JSTOR database for some reason.

China’s ‘OK Boomer’: Generations Clash Over the Nation’s Future (Published 2020)

A commercial extolling Chinese youths has set off a debate over whether they are too nationalistic — and their prospects too limited — for the country’s good.

www.nytimes.com

An interesting and just published article.

 

[Deleted member 2761]

Agreed with the posts about critical thinking. Or at least how the West views critical thinking anyway. I have encountered many Koreans during my undergraduate degree in the UK and they would admit that they did not know or understand how to write and structure an essay because the only thing they had learnt to do was rote learning and ticking boxes for multiple choice tests. They would ask for a lot of help just trying to put their thoughts down on paper. But in the end it was just information, there was little or no analysis when it came to essay writing. They prized knowledge over deeper critical thinking. Not to say that they don't possess it at all. They needed to train that ability. Because the only process they knew was 'how to get the correct answer'.

I even met a Korean graduate student who came to do research on critical thinking and the lack of it in educations systems across Asia, so it's definitely something that Asians themselves see and critcize about their own education systems.

And yes, while Chinese people do have their own thoughts and opinions, they rarely ask why or the deeper why. Because they simply weren't trained and brought up that way in school. You didn't need to think why the Cultural Revolution happened. You just memorized the reasons given in the textbook. This stems partly from Confucian education techniques in Asia, but also to ensure that people don't question the authority and information that is presented to them by the higher ups which is perfect for an authoritarian regime like the CCP.

Click to shrink...

I'm sure I'd come across as a dumbass if I had to communicate the breadth and depth of my knowledge in a foreign language, but surely your incredible critical thinking skills took that into account.

 

[Chikor]

Agreed with the posts about critical thinking. Or at least how the West views critical thinking anyway. I have encountered many Koreans during my undergraduate degree in the UK and they would admit that they did not know or understand how to write and structure an essay because the only thing they had learnt to do was rote learning and ticking boxes for multiple choice tests. They would ask for a lot of help just trying to put their thoughts down on paper. But in the end it was just information, there was little or no analysis when it came to essay writing. They prized knowledge over deeper critical thinking. Not to say that they don't possess it at all. They needed to train that ability. Because the only process they knew was 'how to get the correct answer'.

I even met a Korean graduate student who came to do research on critical thinking and the lack of it in educations systems across Asia, so it's definitely something that Asians themselves see and critcize about their own education systems.

Click to shrink...

Korea and China are different countries, with quite different societies and education systems.
We really gonna zoom past "Chinese lack critical thinking" and go straight to "Asians lack critical thinking"?

p.s.
I think there is a simpler explanation than Confucius as to why people from Korea are not a good as people from the UK in writing essays in the way they teach in the UK.

And yes, while Chinese people do have their own thoughts and opinions, they rarely ask why or the deeper why.

Click to shrink...

Come on...

 

[Antiwhippy]

I think "critical thinking" also kinda does need to be looked at in a cultural sort of lens. I think it is absolutely true that Asian culture in general is considered more rigid and systemic. You can sort of point to the salaryman culture in Japan and even the machine that runs K-pop as something that runs across East Asian societies.

But I also think we must also question if the west are any better at using critical thinking to break out of their own systems. Hell, one of the biggest fights in the US is how the rich can use the systems in place to become richer as the poor keeps getting fucked by the system, and also how they're still tied to institutions placed 300 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

But they aren't going to talk bad about politics or Xi on Weibo unless they're ready to go to prison.

Click to shrink...

Not true, posts bashing politics or Xi is pretty common on Weibo but they get deleted within minutes. Other sites like Zhihu or Douban are relatively more politically tolerant, they are literally battlefields of different opinions.

WeChat deletes and stops the message from being delivered to the receiver if they believe it is harmful

Click to shrink...

Not true, I talk shit about winnie everyday yet I don't have any messaging problem. Wechat moments (SN timeline) do get moderated but not private messaging.

At least in authoritarian states like North Korea, messages, notes, and testimonials of those opposing the state are quite numerous.

Click to shrink...

Are you being serious?

 

[Kaseoki]

I'm sure I'd come across as a dumbass if I had to communicate the breadth and depth of my knowledge in a foreign language, but surely your incredible critical thinking skills took that into account.

Click to shrink...

This isn't limited to critical writing skills in foreign languages. I also found the same issue in Korea. Possibly less, but there seemed to be difficulty in writing in-depth analysis because they hadn't had the need to do post until university education. Everything up until then was preparing for multiple choice tests.

Korea and China are different countries, with quite different societies and education systems.
We really gonna zoom past "Chinese lack critical thinking" and go straight to "Asians lack critical thinking"?

p.s.
I think there is a simpler explanation than Confucius as to why people from Korea are not a good as people from the UK in writing essays in the way they teach in the UK.


Come on...

Click to shrink...

I don't have much experience with anecdotes about the Chinese education system, but from what I've heard and read about it, it's a similar rote learning system.

I didn't say anything based on race. But rather the education system in those countries. You could be a white man growing up in China and have poor critical analysis skills, versus me, an Asian who grew up in the West and had to write critical analysis essays from the age of 11.

 

[Kaseoki]

Not true, posts bashing politics or Xi is pretty common on Weibo but they get deleted within minutes. Other sites like Zhihu or Douban are relatively more politically tolerant, they are literally battlefields of different opinions.


Not true, I talk shit about winnie everyday yet I don't have any messaging problem. Wechat moments (SN timeline) do get moderated but not private messaging.


Are you being serious?

Click to shrink...

The stuff about WeChat is what I've read about on the BBC. I've never used WeChat personally so if it's not true then I apologies.

About North Korea, the comparison is not a great one I know, my bad. I know the reason for such testimonies is probably more propaganda-ish from the South Korean perspective, but I rarely if ever hear Han Chinese dissidents speak out against the CCP. Ai Weiwei I know does is his own subtle way. But for other Han Chinese, I don't really hear much. If there are, it'd be good to read up on.

 

[Balls]

We went from Chinese folks all think like a single hivemind to Chinese & Asians are lacking in the critical thinking department. Nice! You guys are doing great with all these blanket statements.

 

[gully state]

I can't speak about critical thinking in mainland education but Ive taken summer school in Taiwan when I was 10 with other Taiwanese students and I didn't see much difference in terms of educational style other than getting whacked with a ruler for wrong answers. Of Course this was in the early 90's and teachers don't hit students anymore. Over the years I've had the pleasure of working with various post docs in academia from the mainland and Ive seen them be praised by various PI's for their novel approaches to biological research and put out some real novel manuscripts . I've also seen a lot of mainland PhD's end up doing lab tech work because their language deficiencies prevent them from doing work theyre trained to do...

Id like to hear more specific examples of what constitutes mainland curriculum not promoting critical thinking.

 

[Kaseoki]

We went from Chinese folks all think like a single hivemind to Chinese & Asians are lacking in the critical thinking department. Nice! You guys are doing great with all these blanket statements.

Click to shrink...

Maybe if you didn't skim too quickly, the emphasis was on education systems in Asia which are lacking in teaching and developing critical thinking skills. Not that Asians are lacking in the criticial thinking department period.

I'm sure there's plenty of critical thinking going on when it comes to work and doing business. But when it comes to learning about history and politics at school and you simply accept whatever is written in the textbooks and you are not taught to analyse or criticise the information, it is an issue.

 

[Chikor]

I can't speak about critical thinking in mainland education but Ive taken summer school in Taiwan when I was 10 with other Taiwanese students and I didn't see much difference in terms of educational style other than getting whacked with a ruler for wrong answers. Of Course this was in the early 90's and teachers don't hit students anymore. Over the years I've had the pleasure of working with various post docs in academia from the mainland and Ive seen them be praised by various PI's for their novel approaches to biological research and put out some real novel manuscripts . I've also seen a lot of mainland PhD's end up doing lab tech work because their language deficiencies prevent them from doing work theyre trained to do...

Id like to hear more specific examples of what constitutes mainland curriculum not promoting critical thinking.

Click to shrink...

I work in tech, and there is a whole lot of takes in the industry about how Chinese developers lack creativity or vision. I worked in both China and the US, and in my experience it's all bullshit.
I generally think that pretty much all those stereotypes are bullshit. I donno, if someone have some sort of actual evidence for this shit it's one thing, but I feel people just assume this kind of stuff based on hunches and gut feelings, and I think it's kinda bad.
We're painting a whole lot of people in a pretty damn broad brush with that kind of stuff.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

The stuff about WeChat is what I've read about on the BBC.

Click to shrink...

Misinformation about China from western media, even at only 1% in news coverage, is very effective to antagonize.
Though I honestly think it's what both China and the West want.

I rarely if ever hear Han Chinese dissidents speak out against the CCP. Ai Weiwei I know does is his own subtle way. But for other Han Chinese, I don't really hear much. If there are, it'd be good to read up on.

Click to shrink...

Eh, google Epoch Times. And plenty of anti-CCP videos on YouTube. Also twitter.
Domestically the voices are on every social media and forum, but having an opinion doesn't make one a vocal activist. Too much is at stake.
Not everyone can become a rock star like Ai Weiwei, who has the platform to be visible.

 

[Pet]

Epoch Times is run by an insane cult. Not a source I'd trust tbh.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

Epoch Times is run by an insane cult. Not a source I'd trust tbh.

Click to shrink...

Yeah not advocating Epoch Times but I think they are too huge to ignore.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Domestically the voices are on every social media and forum, but having an opinion doesn't make one a vocal activist. Too much is at stake.

Click to shrink...

Thats what I do not get. People like Kaseoki think and "heard" and "someone told me", while the reality of the Chinese internet, even though its censored, is quite different compared to what people are thinking it looks like.
Douban, Weibo, all those thousands of forums etc.
But then someone reads "guy who looks like Xi Jinping banned on (chinese) Douyin/TikTok" and everyone ignores the literally tens of thousands of videos on there making fun of the government, because they literally are not invested in Chinese internet.

And even just pointing that out on this forum somehow, even if you do not even talk about how the other censorship is literally horrible, makes you a CCP stan for some.

 

[crazillo]

Awesome. Thanks for the articles. I have so many reservations about the war criminal that is Henry Kissinger, but his books are normally a good read, at least! I'll have to verify that I can open those JSTOR links. My school is an arts school and only uses a specific JSTOR database for some reason.

China’s ‘OK Boomer’: Generations Clash Over the Nation’s Future (Published 2020)

A commercial extolling Chinese youths has set off a debate over whether they are too nationalistic — and their prospects too limited — for the country’s good.

www.nytimes.com

An interesting and just published article.

Click to shrink...

I understand your reservations. Kissinger is a very divisive personality.

 

[Mekanos]

Living as an American I really don't think nationalism and propaganda are a unique or specifically big problem to China. Like if other countries described Americans as brainwashed, I'd be like, yeah, we are lol (though I understand the racist history behind using "brainwashing" to describe Asian countries and why we wouldn't use it). Talking about "gut feelings" about how Chinese people are more nationalistic or xenophobic or whatever just feels like implying we're any different from them.

 

[crazillo]

I understand your reservations. Kissinger is a very divisive personality.

Click to shrink...

And again, I wouldn't even say "Asian education systems". I was talking specifically about the mainland and how the combination with a dominant political party that does not want to promote liberalism and political pluralism which has its effects. Many Chinese who later go to study to the West gain as much a new perspective and be exposed to new ideas as we do when we decide for school exchange or a semester abroad. But there's still a relatively large (mostly rural) part of the Chinese population who will never have this chance for exchange.

Living as an American I really don't think nationalism and propaganda are a unique or specific problem to China.

Click to shrink...

It's not. I have so much to criticize to the way we educate our students. But in China, nationalism has been so systemically integrated with the purpose to generate legitimacy for the ruling party and that is problematic. You should really read about history curriculums in China. And under Xi there is a campaign against western values at place as well. This is what I find the saddest about the last ten years, because when I first went to China it was much more vibrant and vividly discussing, and liberal thoughts had their place in the country and within the party (with certain limits, of course).

 

[Mekanos]

It's not. I have so much to criticize to the way we educate our students. But in China, nationalism has been so systemically integrated with the purpose to generate legitimacy for the ruling party and that is problematic. You should really read about history curriculums in China.

Click to shrink...

I'm familiar with it and it's worth discussing. I just think that's what happens with any state that becomes big and bloated. Propaganda is used to maintain the state's existence.

 

[erlim]

Misinformation about China from western media, even at only 1% in news coverage, is very effective to antagonize.
Though I honestly think it's what both China and the West want.


Eh, google Epoch Times. And plenty of anti-CCP videos on YouTube. Also twitter.
Domestically the voices are on every social media and forum, but having an opinion doesn't make one a vocal activist. Too much is at stake.
Not everyone can become a rock star like Ai Weiwei, who has the platform to be visible.

Click to shrink...

Epoch Times is not the most reliable news source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1105951

 

[Midgarian]

Misinformation about China from western media, even at only 1% in news coverage, is very effective to antagonize.
Though I honestly think it's what both China and the West want.

Click to shrink...

It's such a mess. Objectively the Chinese government is bad for Human Rights, but the Western Media's exaggeration on what they portray China and Chinese people as being like needs to be kept in check.

It's the same problem I have as a Turk as well.

Living as an American I really don't think nationalism and propaganda are a unique or specifically big problem to China. Like if other countries described Americans as brainwashed,

Click to shrink...

You are correct on a meta level.

The difference is that in the West it is covert propaganda. Disseminated subtly. The hegemonical power's narrative embeds itself in society and competes alongside other narratives. People still have choice and if they are critical rational thinkers, they'll successfully weave their way through.

Western people read their newspapers and believe they are reading objective content, they are from the West after all the land of the free. It's why Western people online who comment on Eastern countries end up being so stubborn when liberal Eastern people correct them on their misconceptions about their countries.

I'm a liberal left wing Turk. I dislike Erdogan. Yet you wouldn't believe the number of times I have been called an Erdobot for simply correcting misconceptions about Turkey online. It's incredibly frustrating. These ignorant people from the West (many educated!!!) think in Black and White. You either have to criticise a country entirely, or you are slandered as a bootlicker of the government. There's no nuance in their thought process.

People are so pliable in the West through these subtle methods of propaganda, that the powers don't have to resort to stricter methods of submission, or indeed democratic values are so entrenched in the West that they are scared of what could happen to them if they attempt more draconian measures.

In the East it's overt propaganda and the hegemonical powers narratives are the only ones allowed to prevail, other narratives are locked in prison or killed.

 

[Pet]

By the way, I do want to say:

I think that it's really important to have scholars who are not of that country, studying the country and culture. However, I think it's equally important to realize that they are not the **only** authorities nor are they the only legitimate views.

A third party without any stakes may be able to study a country or culture more "objectively," but our own biases and beliefs always interfere with how we interpret what we see.

That's why I'm really glad to have people coming in from different countries to talk about their research. I understand that statements are declarative. I would just urge readers to consider that while they are declarative, they are not absolute truth.


For example, my views on Taiwan, Taiwan politics, etc as a Taiwanese American who is married to another Taiwanese American, both of us being from families that are from one side of the political coalition, is going to be different from my best friend, who is also Taiwanese American, but from the other side. All of us have different views than a Taiwanese Taiwanese, be it regardless of whatever side they are from. And again, all of us with any Taiwanese heritage are not going to interpret things the way a nonTaiwanese American, Canadian, French, Italian, will.