The way we talk about China

[wandering]

If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

Unless there are mass protests regarding some of the things the CCP does, people will just lump them in together (which is what the CCP wants, apparently). It's not right, but that same thing happens all over the world. People rarely separate any citizens from their government. No, it's not right, but that's how the world currently works, unfortunately.

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Yes, it's easy to assume that everyone is ok with it when you're talking about an authoritarian regime that has spent decades eroding the available apparatuses of dissent.

It's easy to assume that when you have no familiarity and no real, genuine investment in the situation and can just sit comfortably in self-righteousness and ignorance. See where I'm going?

Baidu 10 Mythical Creatures - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Ai Weiwei - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Chen Qiushi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Puppulent Succulent]

Trump and UK admin are playing a great power game out of the 19th century with China. It's in their best interest to paint their adversary as the whole evil other. Case in point.

It's not about democracies vs authoritarians. It's about power vs power. We used to be adversaries of the British up until the late 19th century when it's clear to all that USA is the economic top dog.

During the 1980s, the Japanese in America were targets of xenophobia and national competitive strategy. The US basically fucked over the Japanese economy for decades with the Plaza accords. Again, Japan was a democracy at the time.

A "free" China, as longs as the country is powerful, would always be an "enemy" of the USA. Don't delude yourselves.

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This is spot on. One of my favourite films is Gung Ho - a favourite not just because of what how it exists as a film on its own, but as a media document that records precisely the context you are describing, in the guise of a Hollywood comedy. Literally, it is a Ron Howard film starring the original Batman , a historical analogy showing the same fears of Japanese influence back in the '80s, similar to what we are experiencing today with China.

 

[Pet]

If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

Unless there are mass protests regarding some of the things the CCP does, people will just lump them in together (which is what the CCP wants, apparently). It's not right, but that same thing happens all over the world. People rarely separate any citizens from their government. No, it's not right, but that's how the world currently works, unfortunately.

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Americans/Westerners of Asian descent don't and can't control how Chinese people in China react. But, the aforementioned group of people are the ones that are affected by racism every day and in this forum, NOT the latter group.

I also agree with your point that no one should be attacked solely because of their nationality. I've seen the following get a pass from mods, which seems like a double standard to me: " oh god I fucking hate Americans in person. and every single one of them thinks is the good one,"

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I acknowledge your first paragraph.

However, to address your second paragraph, it's very different for a forum that's overwhelmingly American to have Americans saying "ugh fuck Americans/the US/America is the worst," than it is for the same people to say that about a minority.

If this forum was a Chinese forum and primarily Chinese users saying stuff like, "ugh fuck China/fucking Chinese people" when it came to news about China, it would not be a big deal because there's no element of racism involved.

 

[Antiwhippy]

If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

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THis kind of misses a lot of cultural nuances when it comes to the mindset of the Chinese citizen. Like, the cultural revolution and the great leap forward is still in very recent living memory there, and like it's not even half a century since Deng Xiaoping uplifted hundreds of millions from outright poverty to a somewhat funtional middle class.

And that's also not to mention the millions who also sacrificed their lives in vain to fight for more freedom in China.

Like, I live in Australia now, and I wasn't even a Chinese citizen, I was raised in Singapore, and would never in a million years want to live under the CCP. But do I begrudge my relatives in China for being happy about living in one of the periods of relative stability and prosperity? No.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

To give a US equivalent of the sort of control being discussed regarding the CCP: how many americans ITT would be ok with angry outburst towards our country men on the grounds that we are ok with prism? With the mass surveillance going on in our country? Or the violence towards minorities? BobLoblaw would you feel ok with someone being openly hostile towards you, beginning with an assumption that you are happy with these actions? I mean, if not, why aren't you out on the street protesting right now?

Obviously the answer to that last question is because of a variety of factors, and I very much doubt you are OK with those things. But what you are doing in your post is the exact same thing, except towards chinese citizens. In an authoritarian regime, those citizens are victims, not the enemy.

 

[Sacrilicious]

I'm middle eastern and the recent rhetoric surrounding China and people of Chinese descent is uncomfortably familiar. Ostensibly political discussions often take on thinly veiled racial undertones if not outright xenophobia.

The OP was really insightful (both on similarities and differences to my experience) and I don't really have much to add. I think societies are gradually becoming more understanding of other cultures, at least superficially, but the recent crisis has shown how fragile that really is. It really concerns me how quickly many people have slipped back into open discrimination and othering.

Stay safe and stay strong. I know it's a small comfort at best, but history won't look kindly on the current racial panic.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Also as someone who grew up in Singapore I get it. Like by the judgement of most users here, if they were to study him, Lee Kuan Yew would probably be considered monstruously authoritarian. But to me while I probably wish Singapore would progress pass his ideals, he led millions to unprecedented growth and stabilty.

And most westerners have no real problem with Singapore really.

 

[Deleted member 2779]

Fantastic post as usual fam, if people took even a fifth of what you wrote to heart this place would be a lot more pleasant for Asians to navigate.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

I could excuse this if information control was everywhere, but we supposedly live in a western society with free access to information. We know of incidents like Tienanmen square, it's become a huge part of the western zeitgeist regarding china. We should absolutely know why there aren't huge, large scale protests across mainland china, because it's been drilled into our heads. We can't have our cake and eat it too. We can't point to those kind of events as central criticisms of the government, then wonder why the people aren't rising up.

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Why protests are so common in China

They are rarely about politics, but they are evidence of social stress

www.economist.com

Protest and dissent in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 5086]

If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

Unless there are mass protests regarding some of the things the CCP does, people will just lump them in together (which is what the CCP wants, apparently). It's not right, but that same thing happens all over the world. People rarely separate any citizens from their government. No, it's not right, but that's how the world currently works, unfortunately.

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This is a disappointingly obtuse and unempathetic response to the OP.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Why protests are so common in China

They are rarely about politics, but they are evidence of social stress

www.economist.com

Protest and dissent in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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Unfortunately I can't read the full article without paying, which is almost a microcosm of the issue I'm talking about, haha. The information regarding dissent is intentionally gate walled in many ways from western ears. Thanks for the link, though.

 

[Kilic95]

Glad you got that off your chest, Wandering. Hope you are able to shed some of the emotional baggage.

 

[samoyed]

Its hard to discuss China here because there's so much doublethink. Americans love to wax poetic about how much freedom and economic prosperity they have even as they overlook that their import economy is paired with China's export economy and that the consumerist-heavy lifestyle they enjoy is based on China (and now the global south) being an endless supply of cheap labor and expertise.

The CCP would not be where it is today if the US was not its biggest trading partner in the 20th century. The US would not be where it is today if China wasn't satisfying its monstrous demand for commodities and labor. So its easy to go "why don't the citizens protest more?" but not realize that they're not protesting 24/7 (HK excepting) for the same reason you're not overthrowing Trump right this second; life is too good to pass up, and the risk is not worth the reward.

 

[Nocturne]

good post and i'm glad to see administrators and moderators endorse it but perhaps a thread like this should be stickied or maybe even more strictly enforced by the adminstrators and moderation because a message like this will unfortunately not reach many of those most likely to spread the kind of virulent xenophobic sentiment and conflation that it's asking users to reflect on

 

[turmoil7]

Thanks for making this thread

 

[Siggy-P]

All I can say is, last day of my work, I was talking with one of my co-workers who's from China, and she said "I wanna go home." I didn't really know how to respond but I think about quite a bit.

 

[smileyforall220]

Its tough when there are 3 distinct subgroups of what people call "chinese" when talking about this in america. You have americans with chinese ethnicity that are caught in the web that op is in terms of having 2 strong cultural pulls that they have to reconcile with each other, often vying against each other in terms of cultural norms and whats expected of them. Many times leading them to feel isolated from both cultures. Then you have citizens from china studying abroad that form another subset that have another unique mindset. Raised in china, culturally chinese, but exposed to more western culture than simply entertainment by interacting with americans on a daily basis. Some that migrate to the us, and some that return home after getting their degree. And then finally you have chinese citizens that live in china, who are culturally chinese completely.

The problem is when people conflate all 3 of these groups as one thinking "Chinese" hive mind that all have the same needs and concerns when they are very much individuals who exist in various stages of the 3 groups above. And that's just ethnic chinese individuals, not counting how all asians are grouped together as a single ethnic group with the exact same needs and culture. By simplifying all of these view points down into one easily digestable "motivation" you see so many people resort to knee jerk statements, like telling someone in southern california who has 3 generations of ancestors born there that China is terrible for x reason and why aren't they protesting about it. Only once people start to use nuance in these discussions can we start to actually approach it in a meaningful way.

I wish it was much easier to be able to talk to your average chinese citizen in China, due to the restrictions in place(great firewall, filters, language barrier), it makes it almost impossible, so you end up only able to see the most extreme views on twitter, when your average chinese citizen might have a very rational nuanced take on the CCP, and even down to the local level where they are trying to enact change. The next best resource for americans is chinese foreign exchange students when they aren't being monitored since they can bring those viewpoints(though often representing a very priveledged class of people due to the costs of studying abroad) in a way that allows discourse of culture and politics.

 

[Nothing Loud]

Such an amazing post, thank you OP. I'm german with turkish heritage and a lot of asian friends and it is really frustrating to see how many people here just make dumb, uninformed and xenophobic comments especially during these times. Like china has such an interesting history and culture but people won't hear of that. I also kinda relate because having turkish parents puts you in a similarly loaded position of carefully explaining your stance on politics and how things in your "motherland" (which is funny because I see myself as German) are kinda fucked e.g. Erdogan...

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yup, I can relate as a Colombian. Having escaped the Escobar regime myself in a helicopter with my family, it was really hard growing up in the 90s in the US and having people prejudice against me and my mom as drug people because we were Colombian.

to the OP: I'm sorry you're experiencing this, and thank you for the post. Very informative.

 

[Tsuyu]

I don't view the world in western lens nor am I a beneficiary of its centuries of colonization past.

Never have I vote for a government whose foreign policy is raging wars to keep its hegemony or conditioning the international public with it's propaganda reach through Hollywood.

I think everyone outside of the Western Hubris ( Asians, Africans, Middle East folks etc ) should be proud of themselves and not get bagged by what the west projects and stereotypes them.

 

[thewienke]

Absolutely, and it is a salient point that the Chinese government actively cultivates the conflation of its authority and the ethnic identity of its subjects so as to muddy the waters and effectively brand any and all critiques as racist. It has proved paralyzing, and dangerously effective. It's just a thorny situation all around, where the real threat of the PRC's imperialistic ambitions is mediated by the history of yellow peril, Orientalism, and Western racial baggage.

This thread isn't meant to discourage necessary criticism, nor can it likely solve our conundrum in a way that will prove truly ameliorating, but if nothing else I hope that opening a dialogue will at least open the doors to a greater empathic impulse.

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The thing is, I don't think you're being any less critical of the CCP by specifying them instead of just "China", which is the point that I've seen brought up by Asian members. I don't think the point is to be less critical, but more specific to avoid xenophobic and racist backlash.

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Thank you for the responses.

I think specifying "The CCP" is actually a surprisingly simple and easy solution that likely solves any and all of my own selfish desires to equally and vehemently condemn the Chinese government's atrocities without lumping in their individual citizens or anyone of the Chinese diaspora. I also think it would be great if we all adopted that stance as to not make any East Asian members here feel unwelcome.

I can't even begin to imagine what Asian Americans are going through during these difficult times.

 

[Deleted member 5086]

good post and i'm glad to see administrators and moderators endorse it but perhaps a thread like this should be stickied or maybe even more strictly enforced by the adminstrators and moderation because a message like this will unfortunately not reach many of those most likely to spread the kind of virulent xenophobic sentiment and conflation that it's asking users to reflect on

Click to shrink...

In my experience, pinning a thread early on kills the discussion somewhat. People tend to glaze over the pins after a while, so I'd recommend that more for slow moving discussions. But we can certainly pin it once the discussion slows down a bit, as we've done for other important discussion threads. I agree with you about us needing to do a lot more to address ignorance on this topic, and that's something the mod team is currently working towards.

 

[Tsuyu]

Trump and UK admin are playing a great power game out of the 19th century with China. It's in their best interest to paint their adversary as the whole evil other. Case in point.

It's not about democracies vs authoritarians. It's about power vs power. We used to be adversaries of the British up until the late 19th century when it's clear to all that USA is the economic top dog.

During the 1980s, the Japanese in America were targets of xenophobia and national competitive strategy. The US basically fucked over the Japanese economy for decades with the Plaza accords. Again, Japan was a democracy at the time.

A "free" China, as longs as the country is powerful, would always be an "enemy" of the USA. Don't delude yourselves.

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Yup and I don't see how the West will treat India differently later down the road.

 

[FaceHugger]

Well, if it helps, I'm half flip - on my father's side. I always loved Chinese culture and history, especially as I learned more about it and realized how crazily diverse it is from one region to another, and how much it has changed over time. So, I never talked down on the Chinese or cast aspersions. Always loved ya guys, still do.

 

[wandering]

Also probably a good time to bring up a post I made some months ago shedding light on why we don't see more unrest (aside from the fact that, you know, it's an autocratic oppressive regime, so of course unrest is gonna be hard). It's a generalization, and has been pointed out, there are many Chinese activists and dissidents, but this is a post about why China's people as a whole aren't throwing a bloody revolution.

Chinese people are aware of what democracy is, they just don't believe it's an effective system.

Understand that the basic ideological foundations of human liberty and self-actualization that we take for granted didn't always exist and aren't shared by everybody. As much as we think of history as a steady march towards progress, it's not a given that democracy will be considered by all as the natural conclusion of human development.

China in particular has a history characterized by a cyclical pattern of rule: consolidation of power -> flourishing of society -> decay -> collapse -> conflict. Rinse and repeat. Every time a dynastic shift occurs, there's mass death to accompany it, whether it be from famine, invasion, civil war, or natural disaster. So it's almost been ingrained into the cultural psyche that a weak government leads to suffering.

Alongside this pattern, there's a historical political concept, the Mandate of Heaven, from which the ruler derives his right to rule. It's similar to the European concept of the divine right of kings, except the Mandate of Heaven is revocable. Basically, heaven bestows the mandate to rule upon a just ruler, but if that ruler is overthrown, it is accepted that the ruler became unworthy and heaven withdrew his mandate. So just as Chinese history is characterized by powerful central governments and autocracy, it's also somewhat contradictorily characterized by the integral right to civil unrest and rebellion.

Knowing this, the Chinese leadership is terrified of any sign of dissent, which is why we see them go to such incredible lengths to suppress the Chinese population. The populace, for their part, is mostly content to be ruled, because right now the benefits of a growing economy outweigh the prospect of the chaos that always accompanies political change in China. Looking to the 20th century, where the collapse of the Qing dynasty was followed by pretty much 50+ years of horror (the era of warlords, civil war, Japanese occupation, more civil war, starvation, revolution, etc. etc.), you start to understand how the Chinese might value stability over freedom.

Once the money stops flowing though...

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[samoyed]

The right to rebellion can be considered a kind of ur-democratic ideology since it underpins much of American libertarian thought as well. It emphasizes that the unit of civilization is ultimately the citizen.

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

The Chinese people and their culture are wonderful, but I feel most criticism is derived from the CCP. Their authoritarian regime is no excuse for racism, prejudice, or intolerance to Chinese people though.

 

[aisback]

Great post OP.

Whenever I see on Facebook that people won't buy things from China ever since the coronavirus it makes me wonder how long have these people been xenophobic.

As a British Pakistani I felt similar to you in previous years and still do the same in some respects.

 

[lint2015]

Thank you. I feel like a post like this is long overdue.

 

[Septimus Prime]

One of the biggest things I come to understand is how crappy modern day China was covered when I was in school. I was really ignorant with a lot of the plight their people have to face in the country.

As far as racism, I haven't seen it in person here, and if I did I would defend them if needed. One of my best friends was born in China and got to leave the authoritarians behind and come to America, but even then a lot of the social conditioning that occurred when growing up is hard to drop. I'd like to understand it more but at the same time I don't want to ask too many questions because that isn't their full identity.

I feel like a good way to have people feel pride for themselves is to allow them to see that other people are glad to know them, to look at them for who they are, not where they came from, and to know that their friendship is important because they are more than an ethnicity.

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Hey, so not too call you out, specifically, but this is the type of post that, while it doesn't exhibit any over racism, is still subtly racist and "other"-ing.

Check out the part I bolded. Its implication reads like Chinese people are brainwashed and/or too oblivious to realize what like is really like in their home country.

Here's a quick trick: replace any mention of Asians with the appropriate word that refers to black people and see if it still sounds okay. If it sounds like something sketchy to say about black people, it's sketchy to say about anyone else, too.

 

[monapon]

Thank you very much for your well-written post. I don't think I have much else to say that hasn't already been said but I truly feel that, as hard as it may be in the current climate, you should never be ashamed of being ethnically Chinese.

 

[purplemonkey111]

Taiwanese American here. Thanks for making the thread, hopefully it will let more people know about what Asian minorities in general have to deal with. As the OP said, for the racist folks, it doesn't matter if we are Chinese, Japanese, or any other SEA race, to the racist bigots, we are all Chinese.

 

[wandering]

The CCP may have done nothing but destroy a country, a people, and a culture but don't let them take away your connection to your ethnicity!

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I'm not sure if this is meant to be a mocking jab or something, but in case it is, I'm well aware of what the Party has done to the country and people of my heritage, what it has done to Taiwan, and what it has done to non-Han peoples as well. I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I have no loyalty nor affection towards the PRC's political institutions.

 

[Nocturne]

The CCP may have done nothing but destroy a country, a people, and a culture but don't let them take away your connection to your ethnicity!

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except before the ccp came into power, the country, the people, and the culture of china (and east asia as a whole) was being systematically and violently torn apart, stolen, and sold by the western imperial hegemony and those directly inspired by its' actions. so um, maybe before you call out the CCP for the rock and the hard place many chinese people are forced into, please try to understand that the west is the rock in this situation and there's a lot that has 'taken away our connection to our ethnicity' here as well. and here is what is in our power to fix.

also please do not reduce cultural identity to food. it's really not helpful.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I wonder how Americans would feel if they're also constantly mocked to reckon and take on the guilt of their power plays all around the world installing oppressive regimes they claim to be against.

And also if the British and other colonisers are ever forced to have full reparations for the impact of colonisation in Asia and Africa.

 

[samoyed]

American liberals here would probably balk at being lumped in with Republican voters, despite them being your near neighbors, and would further object to being held in relativity to the British, your forebears, and yet they frequently collapse Chinese Americans, Chinese and all vaguely East Asian ethnic groups into one amorphous blob. Individualism is great but only for the white man, eh?

 

[No_Style]

Wonderful words that will be ignored by the ones that should be reading them in the first place. I really hope this thread manages to reach people and it doesn't end up with you preaching to the choir.

 

[ABIC]

I'm ethically Chinese, but wasn't born there. Speak read write Chinese natively though, along with English. Grew up in Southeast Asia.

China is not the CCP. Chinese culture and history spans 5000 years, the CCP is a couple years older than 50. The nation and culture will continue to stand after its political systems pass.

I have no shame of being Chinese and am sad to hear someone being ashamed of being one. I don't have an identity crisis, because it's simple to me.

Being Chinese — I mean culturally and ethnically — is not the same as supporting the CCP or being born there. Family relations, respect for elders, cultural traditions and cuisine are what it's about.

I also had the opportunity to live and work in China for 5 years, so it's not an abstract mythical motherland to me. I'd say I do not regard it as a motherland, but I can't deny that I fit in very quickly in some aspects. I feel like an Other in America.

If a meteor would arrive at my vicinity right now and kill everyone, with scientists of the future discovering our remains, they would discover my entire genetic profile is Chinese. There is some kind of physical and biological bond there, and on top of it, a massive cultural bond.

I think you don't have to feel obliged to represent a people or a race. Live your life as you will. Virtually all immigrants become thoroughly American and dislocated from their origins by the third generation. I think the best thing you can try is have some ethnic Chinese friends, like myself, who you can chat with and just talk about these issues over. Our grandchildren may not even be wholly Chinese.. they'll have their own identity issues.

One thing we should all be aware of.. China is getting stronger. In the next few decades it will match the USA economically and militarily. Unlike the Soviets whom collapsed, this rise has a decent chance to be sustained. Tensions with the USA will climb over the next 30 years, and there's a chance it will result in bad outcomes for Chinese Americans. Last time, things didn't go well for Japanese Americans.

Dialogue over a forum kinda sucks.. go chat with your friends!

 

[Robin]

There's a lot to soak in here. I appreciate how thoughtful your opening post is Wandering. There's a lot of rhetoric that happens on the internet, on this website absolutely and especially so in broader places like Reddit that leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I don't have the education to put into words due to the fact that I'm not a racial minority and that regrettably this isn't something that was on my radar until just a few short years ago, or at least not in a three dimensional way.

Sometimes realizing how limited my own world view is and how lacking I have been in truly empathizing with people whose struggles are not my own leaves me with a burning feeling of embarrassment and shame. I am someone who has always felt magnetized towards understanding issues of civil rights but it never takes long for me to find myself facing my own inadequacies in this department. I feel like I've learned a lot in adulthood but it doesn't take much to snap me back into the reality that there's always more that I'm not seeing or understanding.

Anyway, thank you for the thread.

 

[ABIC]

Trump and UK admin are playing a great power game out of the 19th century with China. It's in their best interest to paint their adversary as the whole evil other. Case in point.

It's not about democracies vs authoritarians. It's about power vs power. We used to be adversaries of the British up until the late 19th century when it's clear to all that USA is the economic top dog.

During the 1980s, the Japanese in America were targets of xenophobia and national competitive strategy. The US basically fucked over the Japanese economy for decades with the Plaza accords. Again, Japan was a democracy at the time.

A "free" China, as longs as the country is powerful, would always be an "enemy" of the USA. Don't delude yourselves.

Click to shrink...

yo who r u why u so right
U got it

 

[L Thammy]

I like history, so when I think of China, my mind goes much further than just the Chinese communist party. One of the things that stands out at me about ancient China was the concept of the "mandate of heaven".

In the late middle ages, Europeans adopted the King Arthur-esque idea that the ruler of a country was divinely appointed, and they had to report to God. Imperial China had a developed a similar view, except they had the idea that if you don't do the job god will remove you from the position, and so if the people revolt and can take down the regime that doesn't make the new regime any less legitimate.

Plenty of classic Chinese works express this in some way. In The Water Margin, the villain is an incompetent asshole who is put into office for stupid reasons and proceeds to abuse the vast power he is given. The heroes are bandits who don't do anything for the people like your Robin Hood would, but are celebrated merely for their sheer defiance to that corrupt authority. Or take Investiture of the Gods, which is a glorification of the fall of a regime that has fallen into decadence.

I'm south Asian rather than east Asian so I can't claim any personal attachment to China, but I don't feel that feelings against the Chinese government have to set you against your own cultural heritage. Rather, I think it's linked to a broader Chinese heritage of expecting and demanding better from those in charge.

 

[Grug]

I like history, so when I think of China, my mind goes much further than just the Chinese communist party. One of the things that stands out at me about ancient China was the concept of the "mandate of heaven".

In the late middle ages, Europeans adopted the King Arthur-esque idea that the ruler of a country was divinely appointed, and they had to report to God. Imperial China had a developed a similar view, except they had the idea that if you don't do the job god will remove you from the position, and so if the people revolt and can take down the regime that doesn't make the new regime any less legitimate.

Plenty of classic Chinese works express this in some way. In The Water Margin, the villain is an incompetent asshole who is put into office for stupid reasons and proceeds to abuse the vast power he is given. The heroes are bandits who don't do anything for the people like your Robin Hood would, but are celebrated merely for their sheer defiance to that corrupt authority. Or take Investiture of the Gods, which is a glorification of the fall of a regime that has fallen into decadence.

I'm south Asian rather than east Asian so I can't claim any personal attachment to China, but I don't feel that feelings against the Chinese government have to set you against your own cultural heritage. Rather, I think it's linked to a broader Chinese better of expecting and demanding better from those in charge.

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The Mandate of Heaven was easily abused when convenient though, see Qin Shi Huang for example. Beware any leader who claims any sort of divine warrant.

The ancient Chinese ideals of dutiful leadership are indeed admirable though, thanks to Confucius.

 

[monapon]

I'm not sure if this is meant to be a mocking jab or something, but in case it is, I'm well aware of what the Party has done to the country and people of my heritage, what it has done to Taiwan, and what it has done to non-Han peoples as well. I thought I had made it abundantly clear that I have no loyalty nor affection towards the PRC's political institutions.

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It's not a jab. I despise what the CCP has done to its own people. I have personal reasons for that. But when I saw you saying you've become ashamed of being Chinese, I just wanted to encourage you to never be ashamed of the good parts of one's culture.

 

[gully state]

Thank you Wandering for eloquently expressing a lot of thoughts I've also had for a long while now. As ABIC said, CCP and China are not the same entity. Dynasties have come and gone in my ancestral land's history and history tends to repeat itself. Fuck the CCP yes, but when people say Fuck China, no matter you think your intentions are, you're insulting every person of Chinese descent, 5000 years of rich history, culture, tradition, and the land. You also strengthen the narrative of us vs them for mainlanders and the CCP for the CCP.

 

[DeusOcha]

Half Chinese here but pretty much lived my whole life in the US and a US base in Japan. Currently live in Japan now and have been for a good month but I do overall do thank the OP for the thread.

While my solution to asian diaspora in the West was to essentially get away from the West I do lend my empathy from across the Pacific.

Never been ashamed of my Chinese heritage and I feel sorry for those who do by braindead xenophobia birthed by modern domestic politics.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Hey, so not too call you out, specifically, but this is the type of post that, while it doesn't exhibit any over racism, is still subtly racist and "other"-ing.

Check out the part I bolded. Its implication reads like Chinese people are brainwashed and/or too oblivious to realize what like is really like in their home country.

Here's a quick trick: replace any mention of Asians with the appropriate word that refers to black people and see if it still sounds okay. If it sounds like something sketchy to say about black people, it's sketchy to say about anyone else, too.

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I didn't mean anything bad with it, I was trying to convey what the government does in China, but as I said I am pretty ignorant of a lot of the topic so I'm trying to learn.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I didn't mean anything bad with it, I was trying to convey what the government does in China, but as I said I am pretty ignorant of a lot of the topic so I'm trying to learn.

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Yeah, I figured you didn't, given the rest of your post, but I thought I should point out. Thanks for being cool about it.

 

[wandering]

It's not a jab. I despise what the CCP has done to its own people. I have personal reasons for that. It's just, when you said that you started to be ashamed of being Chinese, it just really spoke to me and because of that, I just wanted to encourage you to never be ashamed of the good parts of one's culture. But I also see how I let my personal feelings regarding the CCP get the better of me and I do apologize for my terribly worded post.



Like I just posted above to OP, I do apologize for letting my personal feelings for the CCP get the better of me. Believe me when I say I understand the history of that period, though I admit that the final lens through which I view it will probably always be clouded by those feelings.

As for the food references, it was certainly not my intention to do that. It's just that, from experience, food is the easiest part of a culture to share with others so I just focused on that. But now that you've pointed it out, I can definitely see how it can seem really patronizing coming from an anonymous poster on a message board, especially when I purposely chose pretty common foods so that is entirely my bad and I'll go edit that now.

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No worries, I appreciate the clarification and I can certainly understand your personal feelings.

 

[freetacos]

Great thread, thanks for the well-written post. I'm half Japanese, and was born and raised here in the US. I am lucky to have not really experienced much racism in my life, but I sometimes feel guilty that I have not endured that while other asians or asian-americans have.

 

[Aaronrules380]

China has a rich cultural history and while much of it is definitely tinged with the stain of imperialism and conquest, the same could be said for pretty much any powerful culture anywhere in the world. And while the CCP definitely has an iron grip on life in China right now, that's not because the chinese are inherently more susceptible to autocratic rule. Given the right circumstances any country or grouo people can fall into that trap as history has shown many times, and once a dictatorship takes root they by their nature tend to make it hard for free thought to flourish. And most of that which does is behind the scenes and hidden because it has to be to keep happening.

 

[asun]

Thanks for this thread. I've also been extremely disturbed by the amount of anti-Chinese rhetoric that's been on-going. I feel like it's always just lurking under the surface, waiting for an excuse to expose itself. Maybe it's my age, but replacing "Chinese" with "CCP" still easily carries tones of racism and xenophobia to me.

My parents fled China during the Cultural Revolution. My grandfather was killed during it. I grew up in the US during the waning days of the Cold War when China was emerging as a world industrial power and being portrayed as the great communist evil. China as a whole was portrayed in simplistic jingoistic terms. For me, popular discussion of China in the US has never had the nuance required to inoculate it from the conflation of US political exceptionalism and hegemony from China's own authoritarian and brutal practices.