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wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
This is a thread I've been thinking about making for a lot of time.

I'm Chinese American; my parents were born and raised in mainland China, while I was born and raised in the US. Identity crises are pretty much clichés for Asian Americans (and PoC in general, certainly), but for me it was further complicated by the fact that ever since I became politically aware, I never felt like I could be truly proud of being Chinese. Sure, the ubiquity of Chinese food and the iconicity of Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan were around, but it never felt as cool or as relevant as something like the appeal of anime, the Hallyu Wave, or Thai Buddhism. We were always kind of the "boring" Asians. The ones that originate all the stereotypes that all the other Asian Americans get saddled with. The reason that everyone got called "chink."

And, of course, the country of our heritage was being ruled by an authoritarian regime locked in a geopolitical pseudo-cold-war with the US.

My mother stopped telling other people we were Chinese sometime in my teens. I didn't think much of it at the time, but I've come to realize that it did have a lasting effect on me. Slowly I started becoming less comfortable with my ethnicity. Slowly I started feeling ashamed. Slowly I started to resent lunar new year parades and lion dances and dim sum, because they reminded me of who I was. Chinese. And being Chinese was a bad thing.

The thing is, being Chinese does come with a lot of baggage. China was the historical hegemon of the region, an imperialistic power. Its cultural weight in East Asia comes from its appropriation of others. Today its legacy is marred by a history of oppression, of aggression, of ethnonationalism, of genocide. Those are things we can't deny. It is a nation under the thumb of autocracy. It's also a nation of 1.3 billion people, many of whom are complicit in propping up the regime, many of whom who are not, all of whom are human. Dehumanization is a topic I've thought a lot about when it comes to the political struggles we face now. The question of how to reconcile a drive for universal compassion with a need to stand up for convictions and ethical values is a huge topic that's best served by its own thread ---- however, what's relevant here is the tension, the incredibly blurry line, between condemning ethical evils and dehumanizing the Other. Some people compare the CCP to Nazism, and while it's a loaded comparison, there's something to navigate there. When we relegate Nazis to the role of inhuman and consummate evil, to a pastiche of villainy, we in effect give up the toolset we need to contend with the potential of humanity to repeat its mistakes. We open the door to the alt-right, to neo-Fascism, to white nationalism.

We open the door to the CCP and Han chauvinism. Alienation is what the CCP wants. It wants Western countries to hate Han Chinese, the same way ISIS thrives off of Islamophobia. Internally the party can point to Western rhetoric as justification for their ethnonationalism, further solidifying their power domestically. Internationally, the party can radicalize disaffected, frustrated people by making them feel attacked on all sides and then offer them a way out: go back to where you "really" belong.

In effect what happens is what happened to one of my distant relatives, Qian Xuesen. Qian was a Chinese born scientist and aerospace engineer who worked at MIT and Caltech, eventually joining the Manhattan Project and further on co-founding NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. In other words, he was a pivotal figure in America's scientific legacy. He was also the father of the Chinese nuclear and space program, because he was forced out of the US during the era of McCarthyism on suspicion that he was a Chinese agent. Despite advocacy and support from several key figures at Caltech and in the US military, Qian was placed under house arrest for years, eventually sent off to China, and was welcomed with open arms by the Chinese Communist Party. That's how China got nukes.

Obviously the situations aren't 1:1, but I think the cautionary tale has some merit. International espionage is a real threat, and I'm not trying to downplay that. But we are seeing a wave of ethnically Chinese academics, researchers, and professionals being targeted for investigation on the basis of their race. We're seeing many of them leave for China. We're seeing this country lose its assets and create its own enemies. At some point you have to wonder whether that's the right tack.

Chinese Americans are caught between a rock and a hard place. As I mentioned earlier, I came to resent being Chinese. I resented that such an integral part of my identity was "the enemy." A lot of us have struggled with that, no doubt. And it's not just us; other East Asian Americans catch flak, because, as I said, in the eyes of America we're all "chinks."

But when you are Chinese, when your nai nai living in Shanghai really is considered the enemy, it does a number on you. It doesn't help when you try to stand up for yourself that you get called a CCP shill, even though your lao lao was tortured to death by the party and your parents forced into labor camps for being dissidents. It doesn't help when you struggle with identity and being a minority and the psychological baggage of being between cultures that a smug-ass white dude has tell you exactly what you need to think about China. It doesn't help when the people who call themselves progressive allies so easily throw Asian voices under the bus.

And hell, it's not just the Chinese folks getting accused of being shills. Some of them are Taiwanese. Some of them are Korean. Some of them are Hmong. You know, people who actually have an investment in being against the CCP. They speak out too because, being Asian Americans, we can see just how disingenuous some of these armchair activists are. We can see that they don't give a shit; to them it's reality TV. They get all of that jingoistic catharsis of shouting "fuck China" but don't actually have to put their neck on the line. They get to maybe change their avatar and not buy a video game and feel smug about it but they don't understand the generational trauma of a family that was literally torn apart by the Cultural Revolution.

But, again, the key is reconciling compassion with standing for values, rather than reflexively making adversaries. So I'm asking you, the community, and those who'd call themselves allies at large, to keep this in mind. That the way we talk about China matters. That those of us who are advocating for a change in our language aren't doing so out of love for the CCP but out of a hurt that has caused deep scars, and an apprehension in a time where our brothers and sisters fear for their safety. That a language of Otherness is not only the weapon of xenophobia, but the weapon that the CCP wants us to use. That we all are in this together.

There's a lot of work to be done when it comes to this forum's treatment of topics pertaining to Asia and the Asian diaspora in general. Whether it's the blatant dismissiveness as seen in the recent thread about Biden's China-focused ad, the pervasive fetishization of Japan and South Korea, the callousness towards Muslims, or the continued casual stereotyping and racist "humor." Addressing the way we talk about China is only one small part of what we need to do to improve, but it's a step towards making this place the inclusive community we want it to be. I ask you for your help in this.

I stand with Hong Kong. I stand with Taiwan. I stand with Tibet. I stand with Xinjiang.

One day I hope to stand with a free China.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
My business partner is chinese. One of our principle investors currently is taiwanese. Both in the current climate have been targeted in gross, gross ways. It ranges from things like telling glances from strangers, to straight up "go back to where you came from" sentiments. For many years, I feel like it was black people who got the worst of the racism in this country. I am hispanic, I've felt the racism of the trump regime as well. Sadly, it feels like the problem is growing in the wrong direction. Everyone is getting a taste of what it means to feel the overt ire of white rage these days. I went virtually my entire life without being called a spic, until Trump's presidency, when i was told to "go home" in the home town that I've lived in for 35 years. My ancestors actually trace back to the native americans who lived in Texas before Texas was the US or Mexico.

Living in Houston, I've actually viewed Chinese people as a great business opportunity, I flat out enjoy doing business with the asian communities here. They tend to be among my best clients. As someone non-white, I feel a sort of kinship with them, and I feel the chinese people I do business with feel the same way. In the eyes of conservative people, we're all "others."

I feel your pain, have nothing to offer other than support. Asian Americans don't deserve this hate. It's ok to criticize a government. The government, especially in china's case, is not the people, however.
 

Lost Knight

Member
Mar 17, 2019
944
West Virginia
I can relate, I'm an Arab American Muslim, My parents came from Iraq back in the 1980s, I was born in Iraq, but I came here when I was a toddler. The way people view Arabs and Muslims here is saddening. A lot of Arabs, as a result, live in secluded places where they live amongst themselves. Now look, I'm not gonna sit here and say that Arab culture is perfect, it's not. This culture has its own share of issues. I feel that you can be a critic of the horrible aspects of Arab culture without being a bigot. I struggled with my religion and identity throughout my life, but I still love it here in America and I'd love to see the Middle East prosper like the west.
 

ReggieBC

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
359
Canadian indian here. Took some solid abuse here in Vancouver in the early 80s and 90s. But fk em, it's my country now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,295
new jersey
Regrettably, I don't feel your pain but I can see why it's just a drag. Asian Americans don't deserve the hate, and those who 'think they all look the same, therefore are communist chinese' are just in general low-educated people. I've had to deal with these people and even if you tell them the truth, they ignore it.
I'll always celebrate and treat any Chinese or Chinese American (or Asian for that matter) with respect -- but I will always be extremely critical of the government.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Thanks for taking the time to make this thread, wandering. I know it isn't easy to share something vulnerable like this. I hope the community at large can become better at listening to concerns from Asian members, and not being instantly dismissive of issues. It would be a much more welcoming place to marginalised members if we stopped and listened to affected parties instead of speaking over them and rushing to get our hot takes in.

There's a lot that I relate to in what you said, being of a Muslim and refugee (but not Asian) background myself. From the identity crisis, to the feeling of shame and feeling othered. But there's a lot that is unique to the Asian and Chinese diaspora community as well. Thank you again for sharing this, I got a little emotional reading it. It's a complex issue, but that's all the more reason why we should listen to the perspectives of Asian members first and foremost.
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,452
San Francisco
Yeah, critics really need to stop saying China and say the CCP instead when that is what they mean. A country and its people are not solely the mistakes of one of it's parties. This should be readily apparent to any American.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,006
For many years, I feel like it was black people who got the worst of the racism in this country
I'm all for talking about racism towards asian americans, I don't think we talk about it enough but I don't know, man. Feels like black people are still getting shot to death by the police on an alarming basis in this country.

If its a contest of who has it worst, I don't think african americans are getting beat anytime soon.
 

T0M

Alt-Account
Banned
Aug 13, 2019
900
I understand how you feel, but I don't expect the Chinese xenophobia will stop any time soon. The current administration is trying to stoke anger against the Chinese to distract from their own failures. Right as we speak I'm listening to Pompeo try and insist that the virus came from a Chinese lab, ridiculous.

As far as I see it, this is a classic move by the authoritarian right. Turn your people against an "other," real or imagined, and they'll empty their pockets for you.

- Remember the caravan of migrants that were coming over the southern border in 2018?
- Remember how no one gave a shit the day after?
- Remember welfare queens?
- Remember the Mulford Act?
- Remember Trump trying to start a war w/ Iraq?
- Remember stop and frisk?
- Remember "Zero Tolerance?"
- Remember The Red Scare?
- Remember McCarthyism?
- Remember Executive Order 9066?
- Remember the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986?
- Remember the constant attacks on Roe v. Wade?

Same shit, different decade. As long as they can stoke fear and hatred vs an "other," they'll keep doing it.

Stay strong, you'll get through this.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I'm all for talking about racism towards asian americans, I don't think we talk about it enough but I don't know, man. Feels like black people are still getting shot to death by the police on an alarming basis in this country.

If its a contest of who has it worst, I don't think african americans are getting beat anytime soon.

I didn't mean it as a contest, I meant that for many years it felt like the vast majority of the racism in the country was funneled their way. Like, I went well until adult hood before I experienced even a fraction of the racism black people do. It's not mystery olympics, it's an observation that things are getting worse. Ideally, over time, black people would experience less racism. Instead, the racism they experience since birth is spreading to other races as well. The so called "light skinned" folk, the ones who were allowed in "whites only" washrooms so long as they didn't speak and give themselves away.

An aside, but I feel this thought that any time members of a minority race talk about the racism they are feeling, it gets twisted into a misery contest, is why so many minorities don't speak up, which just fuels the problem. We're all in this together.
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,006
The sad thing is more people should be wary of the CCP. The future of China is looking pretty scary with them at the wheel.

But you know its not really what the Trump administration is thinking when they try to deflect their own failings in handling the virus and failing to save lives. Or when people like my brother call it the "Chinese" virus. The "othering" of China to hold on to their power or take their frustrations out on.

They don't care about Chinese people and the only reason they even think about the country or the people from it now is becuase of Covid-19.

Nothing is ever our problem until it brushes up against us, then we handle it as badly as possible and it all ends up into some weird cocktail of anger mixed with thinly veiled prejudice.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,528
I don't think, in general, you should feel ashamed of your cultural background. Be who you want to be, not what others don't want you to be.
 
Jun 6, 2019
1,231
Yeah, critics really need to stop saying China and say the CCP instead when that is what they mean. A country and its people are not solely the mistakes of one of it's parties. This should be readily apparent to any American.

If that is the case, I'd like the same courtesy extended to Israel, when they are called a fascist apartheid state.
 

SweetVermouth

Banned
Mar 5, 2018
4,272
User Banned (permanent): xenophobia
Mod edit: removed inflammatory content
 
Last edited by a moderator:

P-Bo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 17, 2019
4,405
Parents were immigrants from Central and South America, respectively. My mother wanted us to integrate into the American culture--so I ended up missing out on so much of my heritage (I can't speak Spanish, and with gatherings with other Hispanics, are nothing short of awkward). Coupled with living in a Pennsylvanian/Dutch community, and constantly being reminded that I will forever be an outsider only good for entertainment--I completely understand the struggle with identity crisis. I was actually thinking about making a topic on this subject.

I am very sorry you and so many other Asian Americans have had targets painted onto you, because of the orangutan-in-chief's need for discord, and this country's need to scapegoat--you do not stand alone though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,731
Wandering, this is a beautiful post.

We open the door to the CCP and Han chauvinism. Alienation is what the CCP wants. It wants Western countries to hate Han Chinese, the same way ISIS thrives off of Islamophobia. Internally the party can point to Western rhetoric as justification for their ethnonationalism, further solidifying their power domestically. Internationally, the party can radicalize disaffected, frustrated people by making them feel attacked on all sides and then offer them a way out: go back to where you "really" belong.
Just want to highlight this. This is super important to remember, for all other users. Don't feed into the rhetoric that just aids the CCP's consolidation.

But when you are Chinese, when your nai nai living in Shanghai really is considered the enemy, it does a number on you. It doesn't help when you try to stand up for yourself that you get called a CCP shill, even though your lao lao was tortured to death by the party and your parents forced into labor camps for being dissidents. It doesn't help when you struggle with identity and being a minority and the psychological baggage of being between cultures that a smug-ass white dude has tell you exactly what you need to think about China. It doesn't help when the people who call themselves progressive allies so easily throw Asian voices under the bus.
And this is just such a tragic dynamic, of being targeted by people of other nations, but also harboring resentment towards the same power that people rope you in with. Ugh.


Edit:
Nvm, you're right Volimar
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,283
Let's not spend the rest of the thread quoting that account implosion.



On topic, I have a Japanese-American friend who has gotten a lot of anti-Chinese stuff directed at them thanks to the pandemic.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
My mother wanted us to integrate into the American culture--so I ended up missing out on so much of my heritage (I can't speak Spanish, and with gatherings with other Hispanics, are nothing short of awkward).

I went through this. My parents were raised in 1950's segregated america. That comment I made earlier about "whites only" washrooms, that wasn't a random example, my mom went through that. She's light skinned, can pass as a white person, but spanish was her first language. My dad is very, very dark skinned, he got it very bad. When my parents when to school, they were paddled and sent home and outright not allowed to go to school because they didn't speak "american."

So, when they started having kids in the 1970's, they were terrified about us going through the same hardships, so they decided to teach us english exclusively. My brother and sister don't speak a lick of spanish. I eventually learned it on my own, but when I speak, I'm embarrassed, because I speak like a white person, not like a hispanic person. That's my heritage that's been erased. It upsets me very much. My father speaks beautiful spanish, when he travels to central and south american countries, they tell him he speaks like a local. When my mom or I go, they say we sound like tourists.
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
And hell, it's not just the Chinese folks getting accused of being shills. Some of them are Taiwanese. Some of them are Korean. Some of them are Hmong. You know, people who actually have an investment in being against the CCP. They speak out too because, being Asian Americans, we can see just how disingenuous some of these armchair activists are. We can see that they don't give a shit; to them it's reality TV. They get all of that jingoistic catharsis of shouting "fuck China" but don't actually have to put their neck on the line. They get to maybe change their avatar and not buy a video game and feel smug about it but they don't understand the generational trauma of a family that was literally torn apart by the Cultural Revolution.

A thousand times this. Leaving the COVID xenophobia aside for a moment, when we think about the situation in Hong Kong, I had urged members on this forum to exercise restraint (fruitlessly) because they were treating it like some sort of team spectator sport with their meaningless flag avatars and video game boycotts. Absolutely no regard had been given to the actual self-determination of the people of Hong Kong or the logistics of independence, and the same forum that derides any association with the fascist right suddenly becomes a lot more comfortable parroting their talking points when it comes to China. We can see that pattern hold with how people here selectively interpret news reports, openly discuss conspiracy theories, dismiss concerns about xenophobic political ads, and in some cases, engage in violent rhetoric about making China "pay" for the current pandemic.

And yes, it is utterly ridiculous that the very sort of people who have had family directly impacted by CCP on this forum have to try to tamp down on the, dare I say it, racist fervor that gets stoked on this forum, and actually get accused of shilling for the same government.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,523
Thanks for posting this.

I've also had the experience of growing up Chinese American, although my parents weren't from China.

I think i've been fortunate in that I've grown up around minority populated areas my whole life, so my experiences with racism are few and far between. I have however, not really grown up with other chinese people though. As a result I have a strange struggle, one that isn't really a struggle: the feeling of an almost total lack of connection to the culture that I am supposed to belong to. Can't speak more than a few words of Mandarin, have seemingly little association with Chinese culture.

I've been lucky, like I said, with my experiences of racism, but I do worry that with the way things are trending, I'll become more intimately familiar.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
User Banned (Permanent): drive-by posting in a sensitive thread, long history of inflammatory thread derails and hostility
I studied alongside Chinese students. I have never had a problem with the Chinese people. But I'll never be able to accept any defense of their government (not that this is, I'm just saying).
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I studied alongside Chinese students. I have never had a problem with the Chinese people. But I'll never be able to accept any defense of their government (not that this is, I'm just saying).

I think, to put in real easy terms for many on this board to understand, imagine living in China, and being blasted for the atrocities of the Trump and Bush Administration, even if you were a card carrying democrat. Like being held personally responsible for shit you yourself also hate. Not just being accused of supporting those regimes, but being outright threatened over your supposed support. That's essentially what wandering is describing.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,489
I studied alongside Chinese students. I have never had a problem with the Chinese people. But I'll never be able to accept any defense of their government (not that this is, I'm just saying).
The whole point of the thread is that exactly not that.

Just being careful in the way you talk about the Chinese government is not a defense of it. Asking for it is also not defending it. For all the excellent reasons laid out in the OP, being careful can actually help work against some of the CCP's more ethnonationalist aims. So, like, yeah, you don't have to refrain from criticizing the CCP. But that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed here is the way all too often Chinese people and the Chinese nation are conflated, even indirectly or unintentionally, and how that can cause harm.

Also, really, you studied with Chinese students? That's your preamble?
 
Oct 31, 2017
104
Toronto
Wandering and Kreljlooc, I'm very happy to see this posted, as a Canadian-born Chinese Canadian myself. Even with so-called progressive areas of Canada and high density Asian cities like Toronto, I'm seeing behaviours just like you describe, where it's become almost a reality-TV idea of what China means, and where I've felt like my own voice about what China is dictated *to me* as opposed to my opinion about my own culture.

What you both have correctly observed and identified is that it's frequently hidden under the guise of 'I'm not opposed to Chinese people, but..." and then actual nuance and discussion is shut out. Yet, each point brought up is not necessarily a defense of the CCP government, it's trying to describe real issues involved as part of the Chinese diaspora. Any time I see that phrase, it reads as "well, my wife is Asian, so..." followed by the perspective of someone who isn't Chinese overriding the Chinese one.

In recent months, especially after the Hong Kong protests, this forum has started to alienate me with exactly the attitudes and issues you surgically pinpointed. This is supposed to be one of the better places for discussion I've seen on the Internet, but that's actually pretty troubling, because it feels like there isn't really a good safe spot, so the alternative is to just live with it. I'm glad your words have been very able to describe what I've been feeling as well, so I wanted to echo them and say great job.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Wandering and Kreljlooc, I'm very happy to see this posted, as a Canadian-born Chinese Canadian myself. Even with so-called progressive areas of Canada and high density Asian cities like Toronto, I'm seeing behaviours just like you describe, where it's become almost a reality-TV idea of what China means, and where I've felt like my own voice about what China is dictated *to me* as opposed to my opinion about my own culture.

What you both have correctly observed and identified is that it's frequently hidden under the guise of 'I'm not opposed to Chinese people, but..." and then actual nuance and discussion is shut out. Yet, each point brought up is not necessarily a defense of the CCP government, it's trying to describe real issues involved as part of the Chinese diaspora. Any time I see that phrase, it reads as "well, my wife is Asian, so..." followed by the perspective of someone who isn't Chinese overriding the Chinese one.

In recent months, especially after the Hong Kong protests, this forum has started to alienate me with exactly the attitudes and issues you surgically pinpointed. This is supposed to be one of the better places for discussion I've seen on the Internet, but that's actually pretty troubling, because it feels like there isn't really a good safe spot, so the alternative is to just live with it. I'm glad your words have been very able to describe what I've been feeling as well, so I wanted to echo them and say great job.

While I thank you for the kind words, I just wanted to point out that I am not asian american. Don't want to come off as someone stealing thunder, so to speak.
 
Oct 31, 2017
104
Toronto
While I thank you for the kind words, I just wanted to point out that I am not asian american. Don't want to come off as someone stealing thunder, so to speak.
Oh no, I totally understand that, and Wandering is definitely to full credit for his write-up. However, I do find it very helpful that your reply to a previous poster also reinforced the OP's observation, and honestly as minorities, I always found it troubling that it's so difficult to be more unifying instead of dividing when there's much larger racial issues at play, hence I appreciate your relating to your own experiences as a minority.

As one crude example, one thing I've always opposed to older generation Chinese is the baggage brought from immigrating into Western society; things like Chinese-Japanese-Korean 'tribalism' (don't even get me started on further subsets of what being 'Chinese' is) versus my experiences brought up in a much more diverse society where Japanese and Korean classmates grew with me, not against me.

This issue is already hard enough on its own, why make it harder instead of trying to unify and make it easier on all of us? Just makes me shake my head when that isn't as apparent as I'd wish.
 

tokubek

Self-requested ban
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
469
Germany
Such an amazing post, thank you OP. I'm german with turkish heritage and a lot of asian friends and it is really frustrating to see how many people here just make dumb, uninformed and xenophobic comments especially during these times. Like china has such an interesting history and culture but people won't hear of that. I also kinda relate because having turkish parents puts you in a similarly loaded position of carefully explaining your stance on politics and how things in your "motherland" (which is funny because I see myself as German) are kinda fucked e.g. Erdogan...
 
OP
OP
wandering

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
Wandering, this is a beautiful post.


Just want to highlight this. This is super important to remember, for all other users. Don't feed into the rhetoric that just aids the CCP's consolidation.


And this is just such a tragic dynamic, of being targeted by people of other nations, but also harboring resentment towards the same power that people rope you in with. Ugh.


Edit:
Nvm, you're right Volimar

Thank you very much for the compliment, and your understanding. It means a lot.

A thousand times this. Leaving the COVID xenophobia aside for a moment, when we think about the situation in Hong Kong, I had urged members on this forum to exercise restraint (fruitlessly) because they were treating it like some sort of team spectator sport with their meaningless flag avatars and video game boycotts. Absolutely no regard had been given to the actual self-determination of the people of Hong Kong or the logistics of independence, and the same forum that derides any association with the fascist right suddenly becomes a lot more comfortable parroting their talking points when it comes to China. We can see that pattern hold with how people here selectively interpret news reports, openly discuss conspiracy theories, dismiss concerns about xenophobic political ads, and in some cases, engage in violent rhetoric about making China "pay" for the current pandemic.

And yes, it is utterly ridiculous that the very sort of people who have had family directly impacted by CCP on this forum have to try to tamp down on the, dare I say it, racist fervor that gets stoked on this forum, and actually get accused of shilling for the same government.

Yes, it's a perverse irony that we have to do so much to prove our own "loyalty" when we're the ones on the front lines of this battle. God knows how many arguments I've had with Chinese acquaintances over China's political issues. And yet somehow my desire for me and my loved ones to be recognized with human dignity signifies my support for the regime that destroyed my family. Gotta love it.

That was a powerful and insightful post, wandering . Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

Thank you for your kind words!

I think, to put in real easy terms for many on this board to understand, imagine living in China, and being blasted for the atrocities of the Trump and Bush Administration, even if you were a card carrying democrat. Like being held personally responsible for shit you yourself also hate. Not just being accused of supporting those regimes, but being outright threatened over your supposed support. That's essentially what wandering is describing.

Yes, this is a concise way to put it.
 
Last edited:
Oct 31, 2017
104
Toronto
This post:
So a Taiwanese Canadian that grew up in the New York area, currently living in America and owner of the Brooklyn nets donates essential medical equip to New York is still consider as "China" to ERA.

Thank for the xenophobia. I guess there nothing we can do to be considered American to you guys huh.
From this thread Governors of US States reaching out to other countries for help with COVID, trying to avoid being detected by Feds, is the most recent example I can think of where I really feel like Wandering's post has been powerful and needed, and the last time where I considered a break from this forum considering his post in that discussion was completely overlooked.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Oh no, I totally understand that, and Wandering is definitely to full credit for his write-up. However, I do find it very helpful that your reply to a previous poster also reinforced the OP's observation, and honestly as minorities, I always found it troubling that it's so difficult to be more unifying instead of dividing when there's much larger racial issues at play, hence I appreciate your relating to your own experiences as a minority.

As one crude example, one thing I've always opposed to older generation Chinese is the baggage brought from immigrating into Western society; things like Chinese-Japanese-Korean 'tribalism' (don't even get me started on further subsets of what being 'Chinese' is) versus my experiences brought up in a much more diverse society where Japanese and Korean classmates grew with me, not against me.

This issue is already hard enough on its own, why make it harder instead of trying to unify and make it easier on all of us? Just makes me shake my head when that isn't as apparent as I'd wish.

I always thought that, were there ever a situation like this, humanity would come together, rise up against a common threat, and defeat it. Like Watchmen or something, the corona virus should be something that unites the world. A "our finest hour" moment. I feel so incredibly disillusioned and disappointed. Can't even wait for the threat to be over before people start pointing fingers. The same old shit since time began. We, as a species, haven't advanced one bit.

This, from a country whose ignorant proclaimed "racism is dead" just 8 years ago.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
Trump and UK admin are playing a great power game out of the 19th century with China. It's in their best interest to paint their adversary as the whole evil other. Case in point.

It's not about democracies vs authoritarians. It's about power vs power. We used to be adversaries of the British up until the late 19th century when it's clear to all that USA is the economic top dog.

During the 1980s, the Japanese in America were targets of xenophobia and national competitive strategy. The US basically fucked over the Japanese economy for decades with the Plaza accords. Again, Japan was a democracy at the time.

A "free" China, as longs as the country is powerful, would always be an "enemy" of the USA. Don't delude yourselves.
 
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thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,927
I think it's a hard conversation because China's ambition to be/become a world superpower comes with a certain amount of criticism and baggage.

If our default response in many threads where simple takes of "Fuck the US" are tolerated while we're required to have an elaborate and nuanced sense of criticism for the Chinese government, then that in itself feels like a position where there is a baseline deference toward the actions of a particular superpower and dictatorship. This may be difficult to swallow especially since we exist in an age where even our US corporations are already too eager to take weirdly neutral stances and stifle Chinese criticism due to economic concerns.

Ideally we shouldn't be afraid to equally criticize another superpower out of fear of being called racist. Which seems to be a common pro CCP tactic on the internet along with the very, very frequent whataboutisms.

At the same time I recognize that the internet lacks a sense of nuance partially driven by Trump himself that results in severe difficulty for Asian American citizens and outside East Asia in general. So there's not one true magic answer for all of this.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
One thing to remember, regarding chinese citizens and their voice to the world, is that dissent is censored online. You only will ever read pro-CCP postings from people in china, thanks to a number of systems put into place. That doesn't mean dissent doesn't exist, it just means you can't see it. This might affect people's perception of people in china, that they're a banner-waving pro-CCP hegemony, but they're not. Being smart enough to see through the CCP's great firewall is imperative towards gaining compassion towards chinese people. If we, outside of china, can't recognize that, we gain a negative perception towards chinese people, which fuels xenophobia, which causes them to actually begin to harbor those feelings espoused online. It becomes a cycle. We have to be better, or else it'll eventually come back around.
 
OP
OP
wandering

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
I think it's a hard conversation because China's ambition to be/become a world superpower comes with a certain amount of criticism and baggage.

If our default response in many threads where simple takes of "Fuck the US" are tolerated while we're required to have an elaborate and nuanced sense of criticism for the Chinese government, then that in itself feels like a position where there is a baseline deference toward the actions of a particular superpower and dictatorship. This may be difficult to swallow especially since we exist in an age where even our US corporations are already too eager to take weirdly neutral stances and stifle Chinese criticism due to economic concerns.

Ideally we shouldn't be afraid to equally criticize another superpower out of fear of being called racist. Which seems to be a common pro CCP tactic on the internet along with the very, very frequent whataboutisms.

At the same time I recognize that the internet lacks a sense of nuance partially driven by Trump himself that results in severe difficulty for Asian American citizens and outside East Asia in general. So there's not one true magic answer for all of this.

Absolutely, and it is a salient point that the Chinese government actively cultivates the conflation of its authority and the ethnic identity of its subjects so as to muddy the waters and effectively brand any and all critiques as racist. It has proved paralyzing, and dangerously effective. It's just a thorny situation all around, where the real threat of the PRC's imperialistic ambitions is mediated by the history of yellow peril, Orientalism, and Western racial baggage.

This thread isn't meant to discourage necessary criticism, nor can it likely solve our conundrum in a way that will prove truly ameliorating, but if nothing else I hope that opening a dialogue will at least open the doors to a greater empathic impulse.
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I think it's a hard conversation because China's ambition to be/become a world superpower comes with a certain amount of criticism and baggage.

If our default response in many threads where simple takes of "Fuck the US" are tolerated while we're required to have an elaborate and nuanced sense of criticism for the Chinese government, then that in itself feels like a position where there is a baseline deference toward the actions of a particular superpower and dictatorship. This may be difficult to swallow especially since we exist in an age where even our US corporations are already too eager to take weirdly neutral stances and stifle Chinese criticism due to economic concerns.

Ideally we shouldn't be afraid to equally criticize another superpower out of fear of being called racist. Which seems to be a common pro CCP tactic on the internet along with the very, very frequent whataboutisms.

At the same time I recognize that the internet lacks a sense of nuance partially driven by Trump himself that results in severe difficulty for Asian American citizens and outside East Asia in general. So there's not one true magic answer for all of this.
The thing is, I don't think you're being any less critical of the CCP by specifying them instead of just "China", which is the point that I've seen brought up by Asian members. I don't think the point is to be less critical, but more specific to avoid xenophobic and racist backlash.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,498
Earth, 21st Century
All I can say is that I'm sorry you've had to deal with a lifetime of that.

The governing body of China sucks right now, but too many people use that as a platform for xenophobic rhetoric, whether they realize it or not. "Fuck China" stems from wanting to say "Fuck China's oppressive government." But it carries other implications that hurt innocent people as well.

Thank you for the thread and I hope it raises awareness to what Chinese people are going through.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
It doesn't help when you struggle with identity and being a minority and the psychological baggage of being between cultures that a smug-ass white dude has tell you exactly what you need to think about China. It doesn't help when the people who call themselves progressive allies so easily throw Asian voices under the bus.

And hell, it's not just the Chinese folks getting accused of being shills. Some of them are Taiwanese. Some of them are Korean. Some of them are Hmong. You know, people who actually have an investment in being against the CCP. They speak out too because, being Asian Americans, we can see just how disingenuous some of these armchair activists are. We can see that they don't give a shit; to them it's reality TV. They get all of that jingoistic catharsis of shouting "fuck China" but don't actually have to put their neck on the line. They get to maybe change their avatar and not buy a video game and feel smug about it but they don't understand the generational trauma of a family that was literally torn apart by the Cultural Revolution.
♥♥♥

I'm lucky in that I didn't ever grow up with any sort of identity issues about being Asian. I honestly feel so bad for y'all when I hear about your experiences of racism. ERA (and the old forum) are already insidious enough that I have no idea how I'd have fared if it was something I had to deal with IRL.

Also yeah the part that I underlined and bolded in your response is definitely the most annoying.

A thousand times this. Leaving the COVID xenophobia aside for a moment, when we think about the situation in Hong Kong, I had urged members on this forum to exercise restraint (fruitlessly) because they were treating it like some sort of team spectator sport with their meaningless flag avatars and video game boycotts. Absolutely no regard had been given to the actual self-determination of the people of Hong Kong or the logistics of independence, and the same forum that derides any association with the fascist right suddenly becomes a lot more comfortable parroting their talking points when it comes to China. We can see that pattern hold with how people here selectively interpret news reports, openly discuss conspiracy theories, dismiss concerns about xenophobic political ads, and in some cases, engage in violent rhetoric about making China "pay" for the current pandemic.

And yes, it is utterly ridiculous that the very sort of people who have had family directly impacted by CCP on this forum have to try to tamp down on the, dare I say it, racist fervor that gets stoked on this forum, and actually get accused of shilling for the same government.
Posting for agreement and boosting.

The whole point of the thread is that exactly not that.

Just being careful in the way you talk about the Chinese government is not a defense of it. Asking for it is also not defending it. For all the excellent reasons laid out in the OP, being careful can actually help work against some of the CCP's more ethnonationalist aims. So, like, yeah, you don't have to refrain from criticizing the CCP. But that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed here is the way all too often Chinese people and the Chinese nation are conflated, even indirectly or unintentionally, and how that can cause harm.

Also, really, you studied with Chinese students? That's your preamble?
Thank you for all of that and especially lol at your last sentence. It happens a lot. People seem to think that it's okay to run their mouths off about the minority experience because they know some Chinese students or have Chinese friends. It's almost as bad as "my wife is <minority> and..."

I don't even want to go into the sometimes touchy subject where it's not entirely possible that a minority woman that married a white man may or may not struggle with feelings of wanting to be accepted by a white community and wanting to wash themselves of their minority identity manifesting slightly in marrying a white partner. Obviously this isn't the case for all or the majority but it's also not entirely fair to pretend like that's not a thing.



Wandering and Kreljlooc, I'm very happy to see this posted, as a Canadian-born Chinese Canadian myself. Even with so-called progressive areas of Canada and high density Asian cities like Toronto, I'm seeing behaviours just like you describe, where it's become almost a reality-TV idea of what China means, and where I've felt like my own voice about what China is dictated *to me* as opposed to my opinion about my own culture.

What you both have correctly observed and identified is that it's frequently hidden under the guise of 'I'm not opposed to Chinese people, but..." and then actual nuance and discussion is shut out. Yet, each point brought up is not necessarily a defense of the CCP government, it's trying to describe real issues involved as part of the Chinese diaspora. Any time I see that phrase, it reads as "well, my wife is Asian, so..." followed by the perspective of someone who isn't Chinese overriding the Chinese one.

In recent months, especially after the Hong Kong protests, this forum has started to alienate me with exactly the attitudes and issues you surgically pinpointed. This is supposed to be one of the better places for discussion I've seen on the Internet, but that's actually pretty troubling, because it feels like there isn't really a good safe spot, so the alternative is to just live with it. I'm glad your words have been very able to describe what I've been feeling as well, so I wanted to echo them and say great job.


If our default response in many threads where simple takes of "Fuck the US" are tolerated while we're required to have an elaborate and nuanced sense of criticism for the Chinese government, then that in itself feels like a position where there is a baseline deference toward the actions of a particular superpower and dictatorship. This may be difficult to swallow especially since we exist in an age where even our US corporations are already too eager to take weirdly neutral stances and stifle Chinese criticism due to economic concerns.

This is an English speaking forum. Many of the posters here are American.

You thinking this shows you are ignorant of how structural racism and hegemony are related. TBH, I'm not wandering and I honestly don't feel like explaining more than that now. Maybe later.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,287
User banned (1 month): victim blaming the population of an authoritarian regime
If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

Unless there are mass protests regarding some of the things the CCP does, people will just lump them in together (which is what the CCP wants, apparently). It's not right, but that same thing happens all over the world. People rarely separate any citizens from their government. No, it's not right, but that's how the world currently works, unfortunately.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,141
One of the biggest things I come to understand is how crappy modern day China was covered when I was in school. I was really ignorant with a lot of the plight their people have to face in the country.

As far as racism, I haven't seen it in person here, and if I did I would defend them if needed. One of my best friends was born in China and got to leave the authoritarians behind and come to America, but even then a lot of the social conditioning that occurred when growing up is hard to drop. I'd like to understand it more but at the same time I don't want to ask too many questions because that isn't their full identity.

I feel like a good way to have people feel pride for themselves is to allow them to see that other people are glad to know them, to look at them for who they are, not where they came from, and to know that their friendship is important because they are more than an ethnicity.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,334
I think it's a hard conversation because China's ambition to be/become a world superpower comes with a certain amount of criticism and baggage.

If our default response in many threads where simple takes of "Fuck the US" are tolerated while we're required to have an elaborate and nuanced sense of criticism for the Chinese government, then that in itself feels like a position where there is a baseline deference toward the actions of a particular superpower and dictatorship. This may be difficult to swallow especially since we exist in an age where even our US corporations are already too eager to take weirdly neutral stances and stifle Chinese criticism due to economic concerns.

Ideally we shouldn't be afraid to equally criticize another superpower out of fear of being called racist. Which seems to be a common pro CCP tactic on the internet along with the very, very frequent whataboutisms.

At the same time I recognize that the internet lacks a sense of nuance partially driven by Trump himself that results in severe difficulty for Asian American citizens and outside East Asia in general. So there's not one true magic answer for all of this.
Yes, I agree that "Fuck China" is not the right phrasing when the critique is the government. I personally switched from the former to Fuck the CCP once someone pointed that out several months ago. The intention was always to blame the government, not the people, so it was a positive change.

I also agree with your point that no one should be attacked solely because of their nationality. I've seen the following get a pass from mods, which seems like a double standard to me: " oh god I fucking hate Americans in person. and every single one of them thinks is the good one,"

If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

Unless there are mass protests regarding some of the things the CCP does, people will just lump them in together (which is what the CCP wants, apparently). It's not right, but that same thing happens all over the world. People rarely separate any citizens from their government. No, it's not right, but that's how the world currently works, unfortunately.

Why blame individual citizens who have almost no power over the decisions of their government though? I don't want to take blame for Trump's BS as I didn't vote for him nor do I support him. The average person in China isn't voting for mistreatment of Uighur's or for the government's predatory treatment of Africa so why blame them. Yes, they could speak out against it, but what's that really going to accomplish anyway? Unless you expect literally millions of citizens to die in a revolution I don't see any reasonable way to place the blame on them.
 

ZiZ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,716
Arab American here, although I was born and raised in America I've always identified as Arab more than I do as an American. Every culture has great things that are worth being proud of. China has thousands of years of history and culture. Honestly any American that tries to shame some other culture should just open any news channel and see what crap America is up to. I'm not saying America isn't a great country, I'm just saying Americans (and pretty much any other nationality/culture) shaming other cultures is the pot calling the kettle black.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
If the citizens of China aren't outwardly protesting some of the decisions and directions of the CCP, that makes it much harder for people to separate the two. Massive surveillance? Most of the citizens seem ok with it. Dystopian "social credit" system? They seem ok with that one too. Blocking search engines and forcing filtered results? They don't seem to mind that either. Suppressing information about a deadly pandemic? See where I'm going?

Unless there are mass protests regarding some of the things the CCP does, people will just lump them in together (which is what the CCP wants, apparently). It's not right, but that same thing happens all over the world. People rarely separate any citizens from their government. No, it's not right, but that's how the world currently works, unfortunately.

I could excuse this if information control was everywhere, but we supposedly live in a western society with free access to information. We know of incidents like Tienanmen square, it's become a huge part of the western zeitgeist regarding china. We should absolutely know why there aren't huge, large scale protests across mainland china, because it's been drilled into our heads. We can't have our cake and eat it too. We can't point to those kind of events as central criticisms of the government, then wonder why the people aren't rising up.

This also ignores, of course, the enormous protests and such that DO go on in hong kong. We are seeing China through a fox news style lens. Be smarter.