[The Verge] "Will the Xbox Series S Hold Back Next-Gen Gaming?"-- Interview with Jason Ronald, MS director of program management

[Geode]

What is wrong with his questions? Those developers thought it was a good idea to take their complaints about the XSS to Twitter a public forum. They obviously wanted the world to know their feelings so its totally fair to ask them if they still feel the same way and why they deleted their comments. If they have an issue with XSS development why not talk to MS instead of Twitter? Their comments were better for fanboy console wars over legitimate development concerns. It's is in all their best interests to develop the best content they can and I'm certain MS has tools and tech support to ensure games look their best. Twitter does not.

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I don't what's wrong with his questions either. Who cares if should have DMed them or not? Not like they were discussing anything super private or worth DMing about. They expressed their opinions publicly, then he should be able to express his questions publicly.

 

[christocolus]

I don't what's wrong with his questions either. Who cares if should have DMed them or not? Not like they were discussing anything super private or worth DMing about. They expressed their opinions publicly, then he should be able to express his questions publicly.

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exactly. the sudden concern for the devs and labelling Tom a fanboy is hilarious.

 

[Deleted member 20297]

MS ignores the fact that modern GPUs are responsible for more than resolution and frame rate. What about physics, machine learning? Can this be scaled that easily

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You're right, they should've consulted you instead of profiling games and talking to devs.

 

[arsene_P5]

Warren is such a fanboy, he could just have DMed them instead of trying too turn fanboys against them.

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"The devs are such fanboys, they could just have DMed Microsoft instead of trying too turn fanboys against them."

See what I did there? These devs choose to publicly state their criticism about Series S, without at least one of them having devkits. When you post something publicly expect people to react. Rule number one. Btw I don't think the devs are fanboys.

What were the opinions in the deleted tweets? Is there a screenshot of those?

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They were concerned about the possibility of Series S.

Well I'm glad we can put this to bed now that a Microsoft employee has chimed in.

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Dirt 5 devs alongside others also talked positively about Series S. I guess we'll see in a few years, if Series S is holding next gen back.

 

[Deleted member 27751]

Just take a look at Steam's status to see where even PC players generally land. 1080p is still the preferred playing style, with some 1440p creeping up. 4k is just so damn niche still in gaming, which yes these consoles will help broaden by supporting it, but it doesn't mean the Series S targeting the general public is a death knell. In fact it's the opposite, this will sell very well thanks to price point.

 

[tzare]

Warren is such a fanboy, he could just have DMed them instead of trying too turn fanboys against them.

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Then people complain about forum members 'doubting' some ' insiders' . And here we have one of those putting those devs on the spot.

 

[cyrribrae]

lol sigh. Everyone fell for the clickbait. This was not REALLY an article about whether Series S holds back next gen. We're not gonna to be able to answer that for some time. It is certainly not what the Jason Ronald interview was supposed to be about. Tom is stirring the pot in every way lol. But that is also the most compelling angle - and obviously, the thing that ignites the most passion on sites like this. He's doing his job, asking intriguing questions, and giving you the best answer we have (which.. isn't satisfactory right now because we know nothing).

It's exactly the question people here are interested in. It's exactly the non-answer everyone should be expecting. It sources people on both sides, in traditional journalistic fashion, and it uses fairly unreliable sources because the ones who know aren't talking. None of this is weird or strange or unbelievable or a problem, really. There's a bit too much hyperbole in this thread.

 

[M4xim1l1ano]

Absolutely. I was going to actually say something about that ;), but I didn't want to ramble on too much, haha.

I would have loved for the Series S for use the full 24 CUs and have 12GB of Ram, even just so it could have all the Xbox One X benefits. I think that loss will be pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, especially with how good the Series S' backcompat sounds. If there's one thing I think MS did well, it's balance their systems in a way that maximized what was most important, and trimmed all the fat. On Series X, that was making sure it was the most powerful console on the market, and came in at $500. On Series S, it was coming in at a ridiculously good price point, while being able to play Series X games (probably) perfectly at lower resolutions.

I'm excited to see how this all pans out at launch.

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Yeah, same here.. if I could change two things it would be the same amount of RAM as One X and the other would be GPU speed equal to Series X. I think in this case perhaps the benefits of higher speed would be better than more CUs.

But like you said, trimming the fat and make it possible to reach below 299 and still be able to provide a next gen experience.

 

[Excuse me]

My only fear about the Xbox lite is that down the road, there will be games that will have game play function that won't work with lite model. For example split-screen not working or something like that.

 

[tomwarren]

He's supposed to be a journalist, it was petty and unprofessional.
Back on topic though it does look like the Series S is a mighty piece of kit. I play on 4K screens though so would always want higher native res and texture packs.

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What? I regularly ask people questions over Twitter on a daily basis, especially when they don't have public email addresses or DMs open. What's unprofessional about asking questions, exactly? I love the false outrage here.

 

[panda-zebra]

Just take a look at Steam's status to see where even PC players generally land. 1080p is still the preferred playing style, with some 1440p creeping up. 4k is just so damn niche still in gaming, which yes these consoles will help broaden by supporting it, but it doesn't mean the Series S targeting the general public is a death knell. In fact it's the opposite, this will sell very well thanks to price point.

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Not much point looking to the wide spectrum of PC gamers and their monitor choices to discern anything whatsoever about console early adopters and their choice of TVs, for obvious reasons.

 

[killer7]

Will the Xbox Series S hold back next-gen gaming?

Here’s what’s really going on with the Xbox Series S

www.theverge.com

That should mean raw GPU performance on the Xbox Series S is similar to the Xbox One X, but the target resolution is 1440p instead of 4K

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[delete]

For example?

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Ray tracing for example

 

[arsene_P5]

exactly. the sudden concern for the devs and labelling Tom a fanboy is hilarious.

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I think the more hilarious part is that some think the tweets were 100% deleted, because the devs did recognize that they are under NDA (which one dev wasn't). As if developers didn't know this before talking about consoles.

I regularly ask people questions over Twitter on a daily basis, especially when they don't have public email addresses or DMs open.

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Stop with your common sense. You could've always got to their studio and asked everyone if they are the developer with the twitter name XY /s.

 

[Ombala]

What? I regularly ask people questions over Twitter on a daily basis, especially when they don't have public email addresses or DMs open. What's unprofessional about asking questions, exactly? I love the false outrage here.

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They've deleted the tweets, probably because they where told to do so nu there employees, let them go.

 

[Wintermute]

era your treatment of journalists and outlets is shameful, even if you disagree with them you can do so without being knobs. mods why do people get warned/banned for calling developers lazy, but not for shitposting about journalists.

it's far from clear that old measurements (raw flops etc) will show the whole picture with these new consoles but i'm certainly a bit leary about getting series s and it being unusable in 2 years. it just makes the all access series x more attractive to me. as to whether it'll hold back everything, it feels hard not to argue there will need to be some concessions in design to accommodate multiple skus, however positive devs are.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

What? I regularly ask people questions over Twitter on a daily basis, especially when they don't have public email addresses or DMs open. What's unprofessional about asking questions, exactly? I love the false outrage here.

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And no one denied that you are doing your evangelical work professionally, but you can post twitter message with limited possibility of reply, to avoid aggregating Greenberg's hooligans.

 

[The Bookerman]

He only covers microsoft?

 

[Fiery Phoenix]

I find it strange how he's talking about building for the Series X and then scaling down. Isn't it the other way around? Don't you build for the least common denominator?

 

[El-Pistolero]

Do you really need the same bandwidth if you're only rendering 1/4 the pixels?

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In 3-4 years, I can see a lot of heavy hitters opting for 1440, instead of 4k, in a push to massively improve effects rather than resolution. That is when questions will arise regarding the S...

ignores the fact that modern GPUs are responsible for more than resolution and frame rate. What about physics, machine learning? Can this be scaled that easily

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Raytracing is very, very unlikely to be featured in next-gen titles (on the S).

 

[Deleted member 20297]

And no one denied that you are doing your evangelical work professionally, but you can post twitter message with limited possibility of reply, to avoid aggregating Greenberg's hooligans.

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Wow.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

Wow.

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It's an easy settings on Twitter, no one can answer except those mentioned.

 

[m0dus]

Why ask the creator of the system instead of reaching out to 3rd party devs?

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I don't think it'll hold back next gen. Pinky Swear.

Edit:

Just think of it in these terms: while the vision for the game will almost always expand to the limits of the hardware it's being built for; in the vast majority of cases it is the architecture of the platform, not the raw horsepower of the GPU, that determines the structure and flow of the experience. Both machines share the same architecture, on is more capable in terms of the quality of the images it produces.

I suppose it's equally fair to say that there will always be devs who's vision will push the limits of what even top end hardware can do, and I suppose there is always the potential for compromises to enable their games on lower spec, but in terms of quantifying if that is 'holding back' the medium or potential of the game, the question is incredibly nebulous and is for the most of us an academic rather than a paractical one.

 

[Ombala]

W

Wow.

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Wow what

 

[Alien Bob]

You're right, they should've consulted you instead of profiling games and talking to devs.

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[Deleted member 70824]

If someone from the PC gaming community can answer this, that'd be great: do gamers with high-end PC hardware, complain that the 'minimum-specs' for a game might be holding back the true potential of the game?

Is this a belief which pervades the PC gaming community? Or is it just accepted that some gamers have better hardware than others, and that developing for lower spec machines is simply par for the course?

Because what is so different about coding for endless PC configurations, versus just 2 configurations of a next-generation Xbox machine? In a simple way, isn't the Series S just a "minimum recommended spec" Xbox, and the Series X is the recommended spec Xbox? Edit: both consoles are from the same generation of hardware; it is only the specs which vary - some by a lot, some not at all.

 

[Deleted member 70824]

Ray tracing for example

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The official Series S spec lists 'DirectX Raytracing' as one of its capabilities. Same with VRS and VRR.

I think we might just see a scaling of raytraced effects. The Series X can get all of the graphical niceties, and the Series S will have some of them - possibly none - but overall they are still playing the same game.

 

[blitzblake]

Man if only it had a disc drive...

 

[brawndolicious]

I find it strange how he's talking about building for the Series X and then scaling down. Isn't it the other way around? Don't you build for the least common denominator?

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The logic is that there are certain "default" things you turn down such as overall resolution and texture detail and that should get you 95% (random out of my ass number) of the way there. The Codemaster developer that was interviewed on Digital Foundry mentioned that MS basically pitched the Series S to them in that way and that that was their experience. He was very happy with the XsS actually for a guy that was gushing about performance modes and 120 fps.

So basically, the goal is to make it so that the game doesn't need to be rebuilt to port from XsX to XsS. Each version should target the same framerate with the only difference being image detail. Dirt 5 was probably originally started as a PS4/X1 game so we'll see if some next-gen games are built in a different way that doesn't scale well, but it sounds like we can be cautiously optimistic.

 

[Nine_Ball]

What? I regularly ask people questions over Twitter on a daily basis, especially when they don't have public email addresses or DMs open.

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And? Because you're doing it everytime, does it mean it's the right way to ask your questions as a journalist? Did you even try to contact them through other means?

You got called out before by many real devs because you stated previously the Xbox Series S wasn't going to hold back Next-generation gaming for sure.

Now you're making an interview with litteraly one of the guys behind Xbox as THE base for your new neutral and not biased article.

"The guy that made the product is saying his product is great and it will not hold back Next-generation gaming, what a surprise!"

This is definitely not the best way to show you don't have an agenda when you're covering the Video Game industry.

 

[Theorry]

I don't think it'll hold back next gen. Pinky Swear.

Edit:

Just think of it in these terms: while the vision for the game will almost always expand to the limits of the hardware it's being built for; in the vast majority of cases it is the architecture of the platform, not the raw horsepower of the GPU, that determines the structure and flow of the experience. Both machines share the same architecture, on is more capable in terms of the quality of the images it produces.

I suppose it's equally fair to say that there will always be devs who's vision will push the limits of what even top end hardware can do, and I suppose there is always the potential for compromises to enable their games on lower spec, but in terms of quantifying if that is 'holding back' the medium or potential of the game, the question is incredibly nebulous and is for the most of us an academic rather than a paractical one.

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Thanks for a clear and detailed response.

 

[Snarfington]

I think the main issue with XsS that's setting me off is that it's unable to play Xbox One X-enhanced titles. If I could say "well, it plays last gen at top settings and will play this gen at 1080/1440" then it's a much cleaner "okay great, so it's at least as good as the old premium system" for most people. As it is, it's this "well, it's not as powerful in raw number, but due to architecture it is actually more powerful, but it can't play titles from that system at the power-intensive level" weird half-step thing.

 

[Deleted member 70824]

Man if only it had a disc drive...

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100%, if it had a disc drive it'd be a no-brainer. Even at $299 people are weighing up the pros and cons of having to go digital only.

 

[M.Bluth]

What is wrong with his questions? Those developers thought it was a good idea to take their complaints about the XSS to Twitter a public forum. They obviously wanted the world to know their feelings so its totally fair to ask them if they still feel the same way and why they deleted their comments. If they have an issue with XSS development why not talk to MS instead of Twitter? Their comments were better for fanboy console wars over legitimate development concerns. It's is in all their best interests to develop the best content they can and I'm certain MS has tools and tech support to ensure games look their best. Twitter does not.

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What's the point of the article if they answered publicly?

 

[Dphex]

Isn´t it kind of ironic, this time both consoles are beefy at launch but because they both will support the old gen for even longer than ever before the games can´t really be as advanced as with a clear cut and by the time there will be "real next gen" games and concepts the hardware will be outdated again.

 

[DeadJoshWalking]

I think if you look at where we expect innovation to come from this gen, it comes down to IO, CPU power, and ray tracing. XSS isn't a burden in any of those areas.


That's not to say that you couldn't make a shitty XSS version of an Xbox title, I'm sure that will happen plenty, but there's a significant difference between 'this is a bad version' and 'this is not possible', there's nothing, aside from shipping a 600gb game, that will be possible on XSX/PS5, that's not possible on XSS.

The frequency of bad XSS versions of games will come down to how well it sells, I think it's very hard to call at the moment, could easily be the biggest next gen console, could also end up a complete flop.

 

[Deleted member 70824]

And? Because you're doing it everytime, does it mean it's the right way to ask your questions as a journalist? Did you even try to contact them through other means?

You got called out before by many real devs because you stated previously the Xbox Series S wasn't going to hold back Next-generation gaming for sure.

Now you're making an interview with litteraly one of the guys behind Xbox as THE base for your new neutral and not biased article.

"The guy that made the product is saying his product is great and it will not hold back Next-generation gaming, what a surprise!"

This is definitely not the best way to show you don't have an agenda when you're covering the Video Game industry.

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In fairness, a guy who is partly responsible for creating the actual machine does have some authority in the matter. Whether you believe his words or not, we can't discount what he is saying as simply being 'company PR'. If we do that, then we can't believe anybody - Mark Cerny included - about anything that they say.

 

[tomwarren]

And? Because you're doing it everytime, does it mean it's the right way to ask your questions as a journalist? Did you even try to contact them through other means?

You got called out before by many real devs because you stated previously the Xbox Series S wasn't going to hold back Next-generation gaming for sure.

Now you're making an interview with litteraly one of the guys behind Xbox as THE base for your new neutral and not biased article.

"The guy that made the product is saying his product is great and it will not hold back Next-generation gaming, what a surprise!"

This is definitely not the best way to show you don't have an agenda when you're covering the Video Game industry.

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It must be truly tiring to be this concerned about everything in life.

 

[BoxScar]

If someone from the PC gaming community can answer this, that'd be great: do gamers with high-end PC hardware, complain that the 'minimum-specs' for a game might be holding back the true potential of the game?

Is this a belief which pervades the PC gaming community? Or is it just accepted that some gamers have better hardware than others, and that developing for lower spec machines is simply par for the course?

Because what is so different about coding for endless PC configurations, versus just 2 configurations of a next-generation Xbox machine? In a simple way, isn't the Series S just a "minimum recommended spec" Xbox, and the Series X is the recommended spec Xbox? Edit: both consoles are from the same generation of hardware; it is only the specs which vary - some by a lot, some not at all.

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PC has been my main gaming platform for 13 years or so, but I've never considered the minimum spec to be responsible for "holding back" anything- the PC trope is that its consoles which hold back gaming. If anything, when mininum specs are revealed and they feature quite old hardware the devs are praised for their optimisation work.

It's all about scalability, and how developers ensure that the minimum spec can get a good gameplay experiance, while the high end spec can get the most out of the hardware.

Shadow quality, reflections, and the type of AA are usually the big GPU resources, so I'd expect if the Series S wouldn't scale perfectly with lowering the texture quality and resolution then these would be the first settings to be slightly lowered to get the performance the developers are seeking; hardly anything that would drastically change the core gameplay experiance - so I don't think the S will hold back anything.
The Digital Foundry and Codemasters interview also talked about scaling back crowd density and weather effects to get closer to the 120fps target on the S. So devs have a lot of options, they're the ones building the games and they are the ones who will know what tricks to use to get the performance they want out of the tech they have.

But I'm just a consumer so might be talking out my ass... :)

 

[CrispyGamer]

I don't think it'll hold back next gen. Pinky Swear.

Edit:

Just think of it in these terms: while the vision for the game will almost always expand to the limits of the hardware it's being built for; in the vast majority of cases it is the architecture of the platform, not the raw horsepower of the GPU, that determines the structure and flow of the experience. Both machines share the same architecture, on is more capable in terms of the quality of the images it produces.

I suppose it's equally fair to say that there will always be devs who's vision will push the limits of what even top end hardware can do, and I suppose there is always the potential for compromises to enable their games on lower spec, but in terms of quantifying if that is 'holding back' the medium or potential of the game, the question is incredibly nebulous and is for the most of us an academic rather than a paractical one.

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Thanks for that detailed response

 

[Jiraiya]

Isn´t it kind of ironic, this time both consoles are beefy at launch but because they both will support the old gen for even longer than ever before the games can´t really be as advanced as with a clear cut and by the time there will be "real next gen" games and concepts the hardware will be outdated again.

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You'll see games at launch that take advantage and I'm sure we'll get even more announcements and footage next year. That ps5 cross gen announcement was a gut punch huh.

 

[Nine_Ball]

It must be truly tiring to be this concerned about everything in life.

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I just don't think you care about what is deontolgy and proper ethics as a journalist. It's really sad.

In fairness, a guy who is partly responsible for creating the actual machine does have some authority in the matter.

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I agree with what you said, ideally you should balance your article with many other opinions from various sources in the industry. It shouldn't be mainly reduced to Microsoft's executives opinion on the matter.

 

[Deleted member 70824]

PC has been my main gaming platform for 13 years or so, but I've never considered the minimum spec to be responsible for "holding back" anything- the PC trope is that its consoles which hold back gaming. If anything, when mininum specs are revealed and they feature quite old hardware the devs are praised for their optimisation work.

It's all about scalability, and how developers ensure that the minimum spec can get a good gameplay experiance, while the high end spec can get the most out of the hardware.

Shadow quality, reflections, and the type of AA are usually the big GPU resources, so I'd expect if the Series S wouldn't scale perfectly with lowering the texture quality and resolution then these would be the first settings to be slightly lowered to get the performance the developers are seeking; hardly anything that would drastically change the core gameplay experiance - so I don't think the S will hold back anything.
The Digital Foundry and Codemasters interview also talked about scaling back crowd density and weather effects to get closer to the 120fps target on the S. So devs have a lot of options, they're the ones building the games and they are the ones who will know what tricks to use to get the performance they want out of the tech they have.

But I'm just a consumer so might be talking out my ass... :)

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Thanks for the insight. It's good to get a PC gamer's perspective on things.

 

[M4xim1l1ano]

And? Because you're doing it everytime, does it mean it's the right way to ask your questions as a journalist? Did you even try to contact them through other means?

You got called out before by many real devs because you stated previously the Xbox Series S wasn't going to hold back Next-generation gaming for sure.

Now you're making an interview with litteraly one of the guys behind Xbox as THE base for your new neutral and not biased article.

"The guy that made the product is saying his product is great and it will not hold back Next-generation gaming, what a surprise!"

This is definitely not the best way to show you don't have an agenda when you're covering the Video Game industry.

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Jesus f Christ!
Why does this even bother you?
is it because you don't want the series s to do/manage well? And if it does, will that notion make your life or buying decisions/options worse?

 

[supercommodore]

Can't wait for the consoles to come out so the forum can return to talking about games and everyone stops pretending to be a hardware expert.

Who am I kidding, the whole front page will be DF videos.

 

[Deleted member 70824]

I agree with what you said, but you should balance your article with many other opinions in the industry. It shouldn't be reduced to Microsoft's executives opinion on the matter.

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True. Maybe that's what he wanted to get from the id guys. Maybe not.

Opinions from developer's will only get you a portion of the truth anyway. Because only when a developer makes a game for the Series' hardware, can they give an accurate insight about the challenges of optimizing for the different GPU and RAM specs, what it meant for their game, and what they think it means for future games. And this will vary between developer's of different sizes, with different scopes of games, and different levels of expertise. Sure, they can draw upon their experience of developing for the PC, or previous consoles, but it's just way too early to have a definitive answer from people who haven't yet developed for the new Xboxes. And maybe devs are not able to give their true opinion anyway.

 

[Joseph Joestar]

Its like asking the tabacco industry if tobacco causes cancer.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

The war against figures that don't talk about Playstation continues.

I'd say keep up the good fight but there's nothing good about it.

 

[Dimple]

Just saw this tweet from Tom Warren:



This is embarrassing. He knows *exactly* why they deleted those tweets - because of business. You are not supposed to talk badly about the product of a partner, even if it's the truth. Yet he feigns ignorance and asks them publicly in a passive-aggressive way wether they changed their minds, fully knowing that he will not get an answer. Really tells you all about what to expect from his reporting regarding Series S.

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Tom Console Warren.

 

[christocolus]

W
Wow what

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That user got a ban for that comment... You still want to defend him?