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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
Cyberpunk comes out for Stadia and next gen consoles.

Option A: If Stadia is good enough for me I have the option to buy it there and play it by just paying the cost of the game. I can add $10 to play at 4K for the month while I also get to play the included game for that month.

Option B: I buy one of the new consoles, pay $60 for the game and if I want online gaming $60 for online play.

There are definitely hundreds of scenarios that can be described like this, from getting the console as gift to winning it as a prize, but I think it is definitely difficult to fight against the idea that Stadia is a cheaper option on most cases. Especially when you take into account that the hardware will be upgraded periodically. Microsoft has over and over talked about how the number of gamers will expand thanks to cloud gaming and it is exactly because the barrier of access is lower than it traditionally has been with consoles and PC's.
 
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BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,321
Cyberpunk comes out for Stadia and next gen consoles.

Option A: If Stadia is good enough for me I have the option to buy it there and play it by just paying the cost of the game. I can add $10 to play at 4K for the month while I also get to play the included game for that month.

Option B: I buy one of the new consoles, pay $60 for the game and if I want online gaming $60 for online play.

There are definitely hundreds of scenarios that can be described like this, from getting the console as gift to winning it as a price, but I think it is definitely difficult to fight against the idea that Stadia is a cheaper option on most cases. Especially when you take into account that the hardware will be upgraded periodically. Microsoft has over and over talked about how the number of gamers will expand thanks to cloud gaming and it is exactly because the barrier of access is lower than it traditionally has been with consoles.
Hardware failures do happen too, it's rare but there's still a chance always there,
I've had 4 consoles break over the years and 1 PC

actually 5 consoles
1 ps2
3 360's
1 ps3
 

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
3,001
So you don't use Gmail, Chrome, YouTube, Maps, Google Pay... Or any other Google apps?

giphy.gif
Nope.

Actually I missed gmail somehow even though it's the first thing you listed. I do use gmail but I'm switching over to my Live account as my primary email. And my gmail account is like 12 years old too be fair, started it way before Google was as bad as they are now. But other than that I'm Google free, use a rooted android phone, duckduckgo as my search engine, don't use gmaps, I don't use any pay service besides Paypal, use Firefox, etc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
I use my PC for so much more than games so that's a bonus for me.

Either way, sorry for badging in. I'm very stressed out about this. Streaming only, if that is the future, is the end for me and modern games. That would be a shame so hopefully it won't come to that.
So do I, but I don't do heavy stuff on my personal computer, and I need an ultrabook anyway, so if I can skip a powerful home PC and just keep the laptop...

The thing is, right now there are some thin and light laptops with decent GPU punch, but if you guys (At DF) are right and in two years you will need an 8C16T, 12TFLOP behemoth to run anything, what's the point of upgrading to a laptop that will be useless in no time?


As for the worries, I don't see economic resons for gaming to go streaming-only. There will always be people who want local hardware for optimal quality.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
-It's important because I see it as a way to allow more people to play games that traditionally have been behind the barrier of having to buy a console or gaming PC.
It may but it also creates new barriers in that it requires a very fast internet connection - something many countries, including places like Germany, struggle with and have struggled with for years. Not all consoles are connected, right? I don't see it greatly expanding the audience so much as potentially shifting it to the side.

Consoles also become very cheap over time - what will happen to that subscription fee? That subscription WILL add up.

...and not everyone subscribes to online services. I don't play multiplayer games, for instance, so I don't need XB Live or PS+.

-Since it will expand the amount of people that can buy games, this means less risk of failure for developers.
Oh? There are so many mobile phones out there capable of playing games but the risk there is even greater than on consoles. Do you have any data backing up this notion that more people overall will be playing games via streaming than the traditional model? Where does that data come from?

This will allow for developers to take risk and create more experiences that traditionally are not approved because "they don't make enough money". Even as someone that will continue to play exclusively physical games, you must understand how that is beneficial for you, especially after playing a game like Death Stranding. I want more of that, do you?
Why would it allow developers to take more risks? You still need to purchase the game, right? This isn't Netflix. Gamepass offers these same benefits. What makes streaming the superior solution over something like that? Games will still need to make money especially since they're being sold in the traditional way.

-It is a more environmental safe way to play games. Just imagine all of the Xbox and PS4s that have been sold this generation. Combine that with the average play time of 6 hours per week and you have a lot of plastic just sitting there most of the time, that on the best case scenario is off and not on standby consuming energy. This argument is even stronger when you think about how a single Xbox One X hardware could be covering the needs of something like 10/15 people playing a game like Cuphead. Everyone can keep playing on consoles with physical games all they want, but everyone should also be aware of this fact. Microsoft is even working on under water data centers that generate energy from water currents and use the same water for cooling.
Are you sure about this? There is still a lot of concern surrounding big data centers and energy utilization without even factoring games into it. The requirements for operating games will increase the energy requirements in these data centers not to mention cooling requirements. Is there any data backing this up? I'm not convinced.

-I'm very excited about the games developers will be able to create with all that connected hardware. I'm very curious about how will the best physics and AI possible on Stadia will look like, once developers get the hang of it, as well as all of the other new techniques that will emerge over time.
I am curious about this.

Physical games will be there for a long time, but it should be clear to someone like you that cloud games will continue to evolve for the better. I don't understand how that will not be beneficial for your work, if anything there is a lot of confusion out there and the insight you bring to everything else you do is necessary to help with all of the confusion out there. If I'm trying to convince you to cover cloud games is purely out of selfish reasons, because honestly there are not a lot of people out there that cover things with the same love to detail as you bring to your videos and I hope that some day you understand what I'm trying to say, once you see it. There will be a game that surprises you in the cloud and I hope you share your real opinion on it.
If there is truly something made that takes advantage of this technology without introducing any form of multiplayer then I may be interested. Utilizing this for computing difficult tasks and complex physics (as was promised earlier this generation) could be neat.

For me, though, I just can't see the benefit. The types of games where the cloud could be useful is something I'm interested to see but they will almost certainly be multiplayer experiences. I'm also personally limited by my internet situation which is unlikely to greatly improve.

Also, I will always demand perfection when it comes to image quality. I'm someone that hates using LCDs due to their flaws - they aren't good enough for me when it comes to gaming or movie watching. I own five CRTs of various design for different purposes. I'm looking for the absolute best. I don't believe streaming will get there in the next 10 years. It will be acceptable to the average person, maybe, but not for me...and that's outside the ownership issues.

I'm sure it WILL improve, though, because my first experiences with Stadia were very poor despite a direct connection at a Google selected site. Doom Eternal looked and ran very poorly compared to the PC next door. The skips I saw drove me nuts and people around me didn't even understand what I was talking about (including Google engineers).

So do I, but I don't do heavy stuff on my personal computer, and I need an ultrabook anyway, so if I can skip a powerful home PC and just keep the laptop...
That's fair. For the work I do, though, the demands are far greater than any game. Video editing and production is serious business! I'm using a very high-spec PC that still struggles often with 4K video work.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
Hardware failures do happen too, it's rare but there's still a chance always there,
I've had 4 consoles break over the years and 1 PC

Or course, my N64 broke 1 time, I had like 2 PS1 that stopped reading discs, 2 PS2 with the same problem. Anyone here had problems with the Xbox 360? I had 2 that stopped working due to the RROD and 1 PS3 due to a similar problem. My launch PS4 Pro has worked perfect so far. On PC gaming I have had 2 GPUs die on me (GTX 970) and one Alienware R4 17 laptop that is currently being repaired out of warranty. I have lost several physical games as well but 0 digital ones. So yes, I'm looking forward to the day when cloud gaming works for me and allows me to not go through damaged hardware.
 
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Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Or course, my N64 broke 1 time, I had like 2 PS1 that stopped reading discs, 2 PS2 with the same problem. Anyone here had problems with the Xbox 360? I had 2 that stopped working due to the RROD and 1 PS3 due to a similar problem. My launch PS4 Pro has worked perfect so far. On PC gaming I have had 2 GPUs die on me and one Alienware R4 17 laptop that is currently being repaired out of warranty. I have lost several physical games as well but 0 digital ones. So yes, I'm looking forward to the day when cloud gaming works for me and allows me to not go through damaged hardware.
I've lost a LOT of digital games, actually. Most of my first 4-5 years of iOS games are gone due to 64-bit requirements of the OS, all the Wii stuff is offline and only available thanks to people that saved it (not possible with Stadia since nobody will have direct file access). Same goes for DS online. Oh and de-listing is terrible practice especially when a physical version doesn't exist. Why would you be so willing to hand over all your rights to these companies?

I have nearly 3000 physical games and have never lost a single one, I should note.

I've had a small number of broken consoles but most are easy to repair and I do enjoy working on hardware.
 

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
3,001
So what makes them more overly evil than other large organisations?
Theft of your personal information no matter what steps you go through to prevent them from stealing that information, the fact that they even give you the illusion of choice in that matter even though it's been proved they still steal that shit after it's been disabled in your privacy settings or whatever they call it.

The fact that they once had "don't be evil" as one of their goals is stupid as it is, but them removing it even if people joke about it a lot speak volumes. They also financially support terrible people on Youtube because it brings them money. You can watch nothing but left leaning content on youtube and still get a Ben Shapiro video here and there, accidentally watch that video and you'll see nothing but that content. I'm sure that's completely accidental on their part...

Make no mistake, I don't view any mega-corp as my friend, but it's clear some are more evil than others. Trying to remove the concept of owning your own video game content ain't helping my opinion of them. People can argue about digital game ownership as it relates to DRM and the like, but stuff like Stadia is truly taking us to the realm where you objectively don't own shit you pay for. At least with gamepass I can view it as a supplement to the overall experience and I can choose to buy and 'own' the games if I want.
 

CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,396
Man, I want Stadia or any streaming service to succeed. Games may not be 1:1 with films for streaming, but we have to start somewhere.

I want the hardcore or collector lot to be able to buy physical or digital games, but I'm personally ready to go more casual and play (and pay) as I go.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
It may but it also creates new barriers in that it requires a very fast internet connection - something many countries, including places like Germany, struggle with and have struggled with for years. Not all consoles are connected, right? I don't see it greatly expanding the audience so much as potentially shifting it to the side.

Consoles also become very cheap over time - what will happen to that subscription fee? That subscription WILL add up.

...and not everyone subscribes to online services. I don't play multiplayer games, for instance, so I don't need XB Live or PS+.

The minimum internet speed for Stadia is 10Mbps, but I wouldn't even call 35Mbps "very" fast internet speed. Look at the data below and keep in mind that the world population is around 7.7 billion people, while every console generation doesn't sell more than 300 million consoles. That alone should be enough to make it clear that the amount of people that have the minimum speed to access Stadia or any other cloud gaming service of the same scale, greatly surpasses the amount of people that are able or care to buy the current gaming consoles every generation.

average-mobile-internet-speed-by-country-2019.jpg



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www.speedtest.net

Speedtest Global Index – Internet Speed around the world – Speedtest Global Index

Find out which countries have the fastest internet speeds in the world. View global monthly comparisons of fixed and mobile internet speeds.

Oh? There are so many mobile phones out there capable of playing games but the risk there is even greater than on consoles. Do you have any data backing up this notion that more people overall will be playing games via streaming than the traditional model? Where does that data come from?

Please don't distract yourself with the current situation of smartphone gaming and the hundreds of games that are released there daily. This is the fact that I want you to focus on. To keep things simple I will only talk about the 3.3 billion smartphone users and forget about the millions of tablet and not powerful enough to play the latest games PCs out there. Currently Stadia is not available for this group of people, what would happen if only 5% of this group starts to purchase and play console games from their smartphone? That would be 165,000,000 million people buying games that were not there before. You can change this to 1% and that would still mean 33,000,000 additional customers that can now buy from the current library of the latest console games. Think about the less than 300,000,000 million consoles sold by generation I mentioned earlier. Do you understand what I'm trying to say here? You can change this to 0.5% and that would mean 16,500,000 new customers. Do you understand how a developer would appreciate having that larger pool of customers that traditionally have not been able to buy their games, either because they don't have the money to buy consoles or because they are not interested on buying a console at their current prices? Can you see how this would mean that a game that was short by just 50,000 copies from breaking even, has a higher % of reaching that goal with a larger group of potential customers that cloud gaming will allow?

Why would it allow developers to take more risks? You still need to purchase the game, right? This isn't Netflix. Gamepass offers these same benefits. What makes streaming the superior solution over something like that? Games will still need to make money especially since they're being sold in the traditional way.

Because the larger the market the more likely it is to sell more copies of your game. There are 100 million PS4s out there and for each game you release a certain % of the 100 million possible customers will have the profile to buy your game. Let's say that a not so popular game genre (relatively speaking) like strategy games are only purchased by 2% of all of the PS4 owners, so if your game is good, that is the market that will buy your game. You should understand that a 2% out of 200 or 300 million potential customers is more than 2% out of 100 million.

Are you sure about this? There is still a lot of concern surrounding big data centers and energy utilization without even factoring games into it. The requirements for operating games will increase the energy requirements in these data centers not to mention cooling requirements. Is there any data backing this up? I'm not convinced.

Let's talk about the 100 million PS4 out there. What is the environmental cost from transporting them all over the world to the stores that sell them or the warehouse that store them? What is the environmental cost of having a physical store that sells physical games and consoles? Once they are purchased and arrive to their owner's house, they will be used on average 6 hours per week, the remaining 162 hours of the week (648 hours per month, 7,776 out of the 8,064 hours a year has) it will be unused and it will be consuming energy during this time, if it is left on stand by (Is this efficient to you?). Since we already know that the average play time is 6 hours per week, we know that with a lot less hardware we can cover the needs of the same amount of PS4 owners as they are not used at the same time. Let me also repeat the example I gave with Cuphead, you should be able to answer the question of how many Cuphead instances a regular PS4 can run right? For the sake of giving an example let's say 6 instances of Cuphead. With the current model, 100 million PS4s are able to play exactly 100 millions instances of Cuphead but in a server environment it would only be necessary to have 16,666,666 PS4s to cover the needs of 100 million Cuphead players (Does this sound more efficient to you?). What happens when a console breaks down and stops working, is it easier to recycle hardware when it comes out from millions of houses or when it's concentrated in a data center? Please try to understand my example and the main point I'm trying to make here. I'm talking about efficient use of the available resources and not the possibility of a crazy scenario where the 100 million PS4 owners all try to play Cuphead at the same time. In reality there will be thousands of different games played at the same time, some will use the full server blade, while others will be able to run on instances that only require a small % of the available power. This is not a case like Spotify and Netflix and the amount of power necessary to keep those services running. A gamer that used to play on a PS4 and moves over to a Cloud gaming service exclusively, will not buy a local console and avoid the inefficiencies I described above.


I am curious about this.

Awesome

If there is truly something made that takes advantage of this technology without introducing any form of multiplayer then I may be interested. Utilizing this for computing difficult tasks and complex physics (as was promised earlier this generation) could be neat.

For me, though, I just can't see the benefit. The types of games where the cloud could be useful is something I'm interested to see but they will almost certainly be multiplayer experiences. I'm also personally limited by my internet situation which is unlikely to greatly improve.

Also, I will always demand perfection when it comes to image quality. I'm someone that hates using LCDs due to their flaws - they aren't good enough for me when it comes to gaming or movie watching. I own five CRTs of various design for different purposes. I'm looking for the absolute best. I don't believe streaming will get there in the next 10 years. It will be acceptable to the average person, maybe, but not for me...and that's outside the ownership issues.

I'm sure it WILL improve, though, because my first experiences with Stadia were very poor despite a direct connection at a Google selected site. Doom Eternal looked and ran very poorly compared to the PC next door. The skips I saw drove me nuts and people around me didn't even understand what I was talking about (including Google engineers).

Awesome, this is what I expect to happen if everything I have researched is valid. There will be servers only dedicated to run simulations that will then be shared with potentially hundreds of thousands of players playing a single player game. I was also doing some research on how ray tracing would work in a cloud environment, but I haven't found anything clear on that. I understand how this was promised for this generation with the infamous Crackdown 3 demo, but it must be important do understand why it not happened and how cloud gaming as done in Stadia, is very different from the client server dynamic between an Xbox One and a server running the simulations hundreds of KM away.

What Internet speed do you have? Have you heard about Starlink? I can understand your argument about image quality, but has there ever been a Netflix or any other streaming service exclusive content you have enjoyed? This is the case that I'm making for Stadia until we get to a point where even you cannot notice the difference, with the added benefit that some things will only be possible on a server environment.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
I've lost a LOT of digital games, actually. Most of my first 4-5 years of iOS games are gone due to 64-bit requirements of the OS, all the Wii stuff is offline and only available thanks to people that saved it (not possible with Stadia since nobody will have direct file access). Same goes for DS online. Oh and de-listing is terrible practice especially when a physical version doesn't exist. Why would you be so willing to hand over all your rights to these companies?

I have nearly 3000 physical games and have never lost a single one, I should note.

I've had a small number of broken consoles but most are easy to repair and I do enjoy working on hardware.

Sure, don't mistake what I'm saying with not admitting that there are also ways you can lose access to your digital games. I don't defend at all for example the situation with smartphones, but if I would have to make a bet for traditional consoles and gaming PCs, I would say that more physical games have been lost than digital. Just think about the games released for the Atari 2600 and how every year there must be fewer and fewer original copies of each game available and working. I haven't loss access to de-listed games, but I do understand how it affects someone that didn't get to buy a game before it was de-listed. That would be fixed if it was allowed for you to sell your digital copies.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
I simply don't agree with you on this and we're never going to see eye to eye. You love it, I'm adamantly against it. That isn't changing. I can't convince you and you will never convince me otherwise - it's just going round and round. I'm absolutely baffled by it. Why would I ever settle for this? It doesn't make sense for me personally.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
I simply don't agree with you on this and we're never going to see eye to eye. You love it, I'm adamantly against it. That isn't changing. I can't convince you and you will never convince me otherwise - it's just going round and round. I'm absolutely baffled by it. Why would I ever settle for this? It doesn't make sense for me personally.

Don't know if you read what I wrote, but OK. Time will tell.
 

ImaLawy3r

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
619
Cyberpunk comes out for Stadia and next gen consoles.

Option A: If Stadia is good enough for me I have the option to buy it there and play it by just paying the cost of the game. I can add $10 to play at 4K for the month while I also get to play the included game for that month.

Option B: I buy one of the new consoles, pay $60 for the game and if I want online gaming $60 for online play.

There are definitely hundreds of scenarios that can be described like this, from getting the console as gift to winning it as a price, but I think it is definitely difficult to fight against the idea that Stadia is a cheaper option on most cases. Especially when you take into account that the hardware will be upgraded periodically. Microsoft has over and over talked about how the number of gamers will expand thanks to cloud gaming and it is exactly because the barrier of access is lower than it traditionally has been with consoles and PC's.
What I am excited about most. I bought an OG Xbox 1 and it died as soon as D2 gets released. I go on Letgo and buy an Xbox One S so I don't miss out on playing with friends and family. A year later most people move on to X1X where everyone was having a better experience. I finally take the plunge earlier this year. I went through three hardware purchases (albeit, the last two were used and cheaper), but still it sucks that I even had to go down that road.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Got it, just needed to know. I just hope we can agree on the facts for now. Thanks.
Sure.

I'd ask that you respect my desire to own my games, though, and understand that I'm not willing to buy into a digital ecosystem. I already dislike the state of things and it's only getting worse for me. No argument will change my feelings on this.

I told you very clearly that, *IF* streaming were to become the only option (very very unlikely), I will no longer purchase new games and I am serious about this. That is my choice, let me be.

This is something that I can research with more time, but something that is undeniable is how every year there are less working copies of every physical game that has released.
Yes but these games are almost entirely backed up. They are usually backed up in ways that companies would not possibly support. We rely on the pirates to basically 'save' these games. What nobody can access the files, what then? What does this mean for preservation?
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
What I am excited about most. I bought an OG Xbox 1 and it died as soon as D2 gets released. I go on Letgo and buy an Xbox One S so I don't miss out on playing with friends and family. A year later most people move on to X1X where everyone was having a better experience. I finally take the plunge earlier this year. I went through three hardware purchases (albeit, the last two were used and cheaper), but still it sucks that I even had to go down that road.

Yes, not having to worry about updating your consoles and not having to replace broken hardware is definitely a plus with cloud gaming. All of this doesn't matter of course if the service is not good enough for you, so let's see what happens.
 
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woolyninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,028
I pre-ordered it out of excitement for the possibilities. I wanted it to succeed!

The closer it got to launch, I found out that unfortunately Google doesn't share that view as almost everything they're doing with the launch tries hard to be early adopter unfriendly.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,711
Sure.

I'd ask that you respect my desire to own my games, though, and understand that I'm not willing to buy into a digital ecosystem. I already dislike the state of things and it's only getting worse for me. No argument will change my feelings on this.

I told you very clearly that, *IF* streaming were to become the only option (very very unlikely), I will no longer purchase new games and I am serious about this. That is my choice, let me be.

Sure, it was never my intention to say that you are wrong for liking or preferring physical games. That would be stupid. I do think like you that cloud gaming is more than likely to be the preferred way to play games, but that is different from saying that everyone should prefer cloud gaming. If in the end you do decide to retire from that type of gaming, you can be sure I will keep enjoying your retro content. Anything planned for the Devil May Cry series, that qualifies as retro right?

Yes but these games are almost entirely backed up. They are usually backed up in ways that companies would not possibly support. We rely on the pirates to basically 'save' these games. What nobody can access the files, what then? What does this mean for preservation?

On digital backups correct? I hope in the future cloud gaming becomes a way to play retro games and also a way to make sure they continue to exist. Access to the old game is almost as important as the games themselves in my opinion.
 
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Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,929
Canada
Consoles also become very cheap over time - what will happen to that subscription fee? That subscription WILL add up.

This is what gets me, too. Sure, entering the infrastructure is free now, with 4K having a monthly fee, but we're languishing in late stage capitalism now. You just know that if Stadia starts to pick up, we'll start to see additional things creeping in. "Unobtrusive in-game ads!" "Pay for no ads!" "Pay for a priority connection!" "Pay for a longer timeout window!"

Someone listed "updates to the OS will be quicker to roll out and Google likes to tweak their stuff and add things all the time" as a positive earlier, but I think this is horrifying from a monetization standpoint.

Look what Google does with Youtube content creators - just arbitrarily forcing weird, vague rules on people out of the blue. It's money that's spurring that.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
This is what gets me, too. Sure, entering the infrastructure is free now, with 4K having a monthly fee, but we're languishing in late stage capitalism now. You just know that if Stadia starts to pick up, we'll start to see additional things creeping in. "Unobtrusive in-game ads!" "Pay for no ads!" "Pay for a priority connection!" "Pay for a longer timeout window!"

Someone listed "updates to the OS will be quicker to roll out and Google likes to tweak their stuff and add things all the time" as a positive earlier, but I think this is horrifying from a monetization standpoint.

Look what Google does with Youtube content creators - just arbitrarily forcing weird, vague rules on people out of the blue. It's money that's spurring that.
Yeah, the YouTube stuff is genuinely frustrating.
 

UCBooties

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
2,311
Pennsylvania, USA
I pre-ordered it out of excitement for the possibilities. I wanted it to succeed!

The closer it got to launch, I found out that unfortunately Google doesn't share that view as almost everything they're doing with the launch tries hard to be early adopter unfriendly.
I also pre-ordered because I wanted to give it a fair shake, but over the last few weeks I just kept asking myself what the point was. I cancelled today because as it stands I was just going to pay $130 for Destiny 2 and the option to buy a few other games. The model they're launching with just doesn't work for me, and the subscription feels like a particularly raw deal early on. I'll try it when the free version launches.