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Iggy1404

Member
Feb 12, 2020
111
I want to preface by saying that I don't think either side of the argument is neccesarily stronger than the other.

Anyway, There's nothing stopping publishers from going to AMD with that argument but, 1) they probably enjoy the symbiotic relationship between themselves and PC hardware manufacturers and 2) AMD is selling the performance of their hardware - there are other uses for these products beyond gaming, even though this how customers typically use them. Also, AMD does mutually beneificial marketing partnerships with gaming publishers when it makes sense to.

I believe Nvidia's big mistake is marketing as and limiting their offering to game streaming, when really it should be a PC rental service. As it stands now, Unlike I end PC hardware, GeoForce Now is nothing without the games library. So some developers who find themselves apart of this library feel like they arent being compensated for this reality.

If it was marketed as pc rental service that features hardware specs strong enough for the most demanding entertainment tasks, including gaming, publishers wouldnt have a leg to stand on, unless they were willing to shoot for a supreme court case that would ultimately take down a massive industry based on letting customers run any software remotely.

OK, I agree with your side of the argument too.

I have to say, I'm deeply frustrated by the current state of affairs. I have no problem paying €15 per month for this service, providing that all the publishers come aboard. GFN works so well for me that I even canceled my plan of buying PS5. But, if publishers keep withholding their games, I just might have to reconsider.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,788
Birmingham, UK
I suspect not very far at all.
Most EULA's have in them a bit that says (I'm paraphrasing here) "Thou shalt not copy, redistribute or broadcast this work, whole or in part".
Its the broadcast part that'll trip them up, as that's what hey are doing. Broadcasting the game for a fee.
It's the same thing that tripped up Youtubers as soon as the lets-play community started raking in cash. For a while they tried to say it was 'Transformative work' (as they were commenting over it), but that didnt stick, and Nvidia doesn't even get to use that loophole as they aren't changing the game in any way when streaming it to you.

Question: when you say the transformative work argument didn't stick, was it the case that the courts determined that, or did the threat of legal costs versus potential profits persuade platforms to play along with publishers? I'm having trouble finding any examples of legal precedent being set inside a courtroom with regards to video game streaming, but I may be looking in the wrong places.
 

pdog128

Member
Dec 16, 2017
609
You don't have games, you have licenses
And this right here is the problem. Not that I think that there was anything that consumers could do about it, but the second we moved away from "You're buying a product that you can do with as you please" to "You're purchasing a license under a set of terms that the producer dictates and can alter basically whenever they wish," it was the beginning of the end.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,541
OK, I agree with your side of the argument too.

I have to say, I'm deeply frustrated by the current state of affairs. I have no problem paying €15 per month for this service, providing that all the publishers come aboard. GFN works so well for me that I even canceled my plan of buying PS5. But, if publishers keep withholding their games, I just might have to reconsider.

Yup, and the fact that you'd reconsider your subscription based on publishers participating is the evidence that nvidia is benefitting from leverage others' IP.

I think the situation sucks too, because I don't agree with the dissenting devs, I just think their argument is compelling enough to keep me from getting what I think is best.

If i was Nvidia I'd rebrand as a general pc rental service. Have a permanent desktop application called "Geoforce Now" that is opt-in for publishers- this app would be the experience we see today.

Also, Allow users to install whatever software they want outside of that geoforce app.

Devs could no longer argue their IP is being leveraged without consent.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
This isn't some anti-consumer move

Sorry, saying something doesn't magically make it true. It's anti-consumer in every possible sense of the word, and it's the people denying it who have had too much corporate Kool-Aid.

But at this point I should really not be surprised by a collective of consumers that keeps being brainwashed into believing (and parroting) that the industry can't possibly support itself if the exact same practices that have been standard procedure for every other art industry for centuries (lending, renting, public libraries) are allowed. This is just the next step.
 
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fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,733
England
And this right here is the problem. Not that I think that there was anything that consumers could do about it, but the second we moved away from "You're buying a product that you can do with as you please" to "You're purchasing a license under a set of terms that the producer dictates and can alter basically whenever they wish," it was the beginning of the end.

Can be corrected on this, but I believe this has been the case for longer than we imagine, it was just genuinely impractical to enforce license agreements on offline physical media. Now, where the licenses can be confirmed regularly online, it is being enforced.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,469
Devs/pubs should be able to decide where there games are sold/made available, simple as that. This isn't some anti-consumer move and anyone who pushes that is full of shit. By that logic, not porting a game to a certain platform is anti-consumer.

Let's say a user leases a computer or rents a cloud workstation. How would you say Geforce Now is different enough from either of those to justify preventing users from being allowed to play their own game purchases, using the storefront they purchased them on? Because Geforce Now is directly analogous to Shadow PC for me.

As someone who uses remote access on a regular basis, this absolutely *does* feel anti-consumer; The control a software publisher is trying to exert is absolutely nonsense, in terms of how the PC ecosystem works. The use-cases are "downstream" from the licensing, that this *is* a fundamental change to how things work.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,157
Let's say a user leases a computer or rents a cloud workstation. How would you say Geforce Now is different enough from either of those to justify preventing users from being allowed to play their own game purchases, using the storefront they purchased them on? Because Geforce Now is directly analogous to Shadow PC for me.

As someone who uses remote access on a regular basis, this absolutely *does* feel anti-consumer; The control a software publisher is trying to exert is absolutely nonsense, in terms of how the PC ecosystem works. The use-cases are "downstream" from the licensing, that this *is* a fundamental change to how things work.
One big differences that Nvidia's stated policy is that publishers and developers have final say over whether their games are supported on Geforce Now.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,211
Question: when you say the transformative work argument didn't stick, was it the case that the courts determined that, or did the threat of legal costs versus potential profits persuade platforms to play along with publishers? I'm having trouble finding any examples of legal precedent being set inside a courtroom with regards to video game streaming, but I may be looking in the wrong places.
I wish I could remember. All that comes to mind right now is a whole lot of Jim Sterling and Angry Joe ranting on their respective channels about how unfair everything was.
With it being Youtube, the most likely scenario was that publishers threatened a mix of legal action and withdrawal of advertising, and Youtube appeased them with the Content ID system. Come to think of it, it might have been the music industry that first started to put the pressure on them, but again, my memory is hazy.

EDIT: Wiki article on Content ID. It mostly deals with music/TV stuff and the lawsuits that lead to, but there is one relevant snippet:

Content ID - Wikipedia

In December 2013, Google changed the way the system worked (seemingly to cover YouTube in case of lawsuits), leading to numerous content creation copyright notices being sent to gameplay videos YouTube content creators. Those notices led to ad revenues being automatically diverted to third parties, which sometimes had no connection to the games.[22][23]
 
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Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,469
One big differences that Nvidia's stated policy is that publishers and developers have final say over whether their games are supported on Geforce Now.

No, I understand they're making that allowance, and I do think they are wise to tread lightly here. Those relationships are especially important because they're a hardware vendor.

That said, it makes it all the more important to hold the individual publishers/devs to task. I don't particularly care if it's being allowed in the Geforce Now case because Nvidia permits it. Especially seeing the devs/publishers responsible blaming Nvidia, that's the most transparent deflection imaginable. Even conversationally, bringing up that Nvidia allows it as a "counterpoint" to the concern feels mostly inconsequential to the core issue.
 

Zaro

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,447
It's interesting to read the Steam Subscriber Agreement

What's your computer? If Steam offer streaming this will need to change?


2. LICENSES

A. General Content and Services License

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms). This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.


For reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions of or otherwise enhance the Content and Services and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Content and Services may change over time. You consent to such automatic updating. You understand that this Agreement (including applicable Subscription Terms) does not entitle you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Content and Services associated with a particular Subscription, although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,717
Yup, and the fact that you'd reconsider your subscription based on publishers participating is the evidence that nvidia is benefitting from leverage others' IP.

I think the situation sucks too, because I don't agree with the dissenting devs, I just think their argument is compelling enough to keep me from getting what I think is best.

If i was Nvidia I'd rebrand as a general pc rental service. Have a permanent desktop application called "Geoforce Now" that is opt-in for publishers- this app would be the experience we see today.

Also, Allow users to install whatever software they want outside of that geoforce app.

Devs could no longer argue their IP is being leveraged without consent.

I honestly think that would not have any effect. If the main reason is that developers are removing their games is because they want a cut out the profits, the same thing will happen if Nvidia gives you a full windows PC to install any other programs you own. Although I believe that would help in a court environment, but I think it is clear Nvidia doesn't want to sue developers to force them into including their games on Geforce Now.
 

DammitLloyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
786
Still kinda baffled at people trying to paint Nvidia as the good guys and developers as greedy.

This all could have been very easily avoided if Nvidia simply asked permission to include games on Geforce Now before supporting them.

They really put the cart before the horse.

Edit: and the battle over "I bought this game I can do what I want with it" was lost a long time ago when consumers en masse tolerated extremely restrictive EULAs.

So what you're saying is, if I were going to go to my cousins house for the weekend I need to ask the developer if I'm allowed to play the games I've already purchased, on his computer? Lol

Whatever the current EULA is, it let's me install games I've already purchased on steam to multiple PC's and play those game on any of them as long as I'm logged into my steam account. But only one instance of one game can be running at any time. Tell me, how is playing on GFN(VM) any different then the current situation. It's literally the same thing.

The PC at my cousins house isn't mine, I'm just borrowing it to play my steam library. He may not charge me for it but that's his choice.

This is literally devs wanting you to pay again to access games you've already purchased, on another hardware. Whether they are in the right legally, we don't really care. It just comes off as scummy and greedy. And I'm not even into streaming and I despise Stadia. But I can still see the shit devs are pulling.
 
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UltraJay

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,580
Australia
I honestly think that would not have any effect. If the main reason is that developers are removing their games is because they want a cut out the profits, the same thing will happen if Nvidia gives you a full windows PC to install any other programs you own. Although I believe that would help in a court environment, but I think it is clear Nvidia doesn't want to sue developers to force them into including their games on Geforce Now.
If Nvidia gave you control over a full Windows PC, developers wouldn't be able to remove games unless they removed them from Steam (AND stopped you from downloading them if you had previously purchased them).

Full control means you could install any program and the situation would be the same as Shadow PC.
 

HOUSEJoseph

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,326
So what you're saying is, if I were going to go to my cousins house for the weekend I need to ask the developer if I'm allowed to play the games I've already purchased, on his computer? Lol

Whatever the current EULA is, it let's me install games I've already purchased on steam to multiple PC's and play those game on any of them as long as I'm logged into my steam account. But only one instance of one game can be running at any time. Tell me, how is playing on GFN(VM) any different then the current situation. It's literally the same thing.

The PC at my cousins house isn't mine, I'm just borrowing it to play my steam library. He may not charge me for it but that's his choice.

This is literally devs wanting you to pay again to access games you've already purchased on another hardware. Whether they are in the right legally, we don't really care. It just comes off as scummy and greedy. And I'm not even into streaming and I despise Stadia. But I can still see the shit devs are pulling.

Im baffled at the defense too. No dev or publisher is stopping anyone from playing their games on other VMs.
 

Mercador

Member
Nov 18, 2017
2,840
Quebec City
I don't get it. If I pay for a game, I expect I can play on which platform I want. How is it different than Streaming Steam? You still have to purchase a "licence to play", no matters on which hardware you play the game.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,398
If Nvidia gave you control over a full Windows PC, developers wouldn't be able to remove games unless they removed them from Steam (AND stopped you from downloading them if you had previously purchased them).

Full control means you could install any program and the situation would be the same as Shadow PC.

it's funny that a less restrictive option is likely more palatable to devs/defenders than the exact same VM just limited to a UI layer on top that launches steam. Because a lot of the arguments in this thread defending the devs have been "full VM rental is different". Full VM rental is already possible, and not one dev has challenged that paradigm. The only reason this whole thing blew up is some devs initially misunderstood the service, then stood their ground because attacks on Nvidia are generally popular in the gaming community. The arguments for the licensing are mostly nonsensical unless you want to make an argument that installing proprietary software on a rented VM is illegal, which is batshit crazy because so much of the computing world already works like that, and it is ridiculously anti-consumer to argue for .
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,428
Im baffled at the defense too. No dev or publisher is stopping anyone from playing their games on other VMs.

They're probably not able to, easily. Nvidia gives rights holders the option of removing their games from GeForce Now so it's (presumably) mega easy if they don't want to be on the service. I don't know how you'd go about removing your game from other VMs without specifically removing it from Steam.
 

DammitLloyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
786
They're probably not able to, easily. Nvidia gives rights holders the option of removing their games from GeForce Now so it's (presumably) mega easy if they don't want to be on the service. I don't know how you'd go about removing your game from other VMs without specifically removing it from Steam.

from what I've read it isn't just steam either, you can install And play your games from the Epic Games Launcher.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
Just plain dumb greed. People still have to buy the games. They will get extra sales from people who didn't have the system to run it.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,717
If Nvidia gave you control over a full Windows PC, developers wouldn't be able to remove games unless they removed them from Steam (AND stopped you from downloading them if you had previously purchased them).

Full control means you could install any program and the situation would be the same as Shadow PC.

I'm trying to get to the core of the issue here. Geforce Now is growing very fast and developers noticed. They are now either exploring the possibility of creating their own streaming services or get some type of compensation from Nvidia. Look at it from the developers perspective, none of the issues they currently have with Geforce Now would go away with Nvidia allowing you to have access to a full windows PC. Tomorrow Nvidia could give you access to a full windows PC and promote you can access Steam, Origin, Uplay, etc + plus any other software you would like to install, and you can be sure that the problem would continue. You might say that this has not happened with other services like shadow, but the difference here is that Geforce Now became very popular really fast.
 

m0dus

Truant Pixel
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,034
Nvidia is welcome to our titles on Steam :) hell I'd probably advertise their availability on the service, if the experience isn't compromised in any way.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,485
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out once xcloud and Valve's (rumored) solution are officially out.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,157
So what you're saying is, if I were going to go to my cousins house for the weekend I need to ask the developer if I'm allowed to play the games I've already purchased, on his computer? Lol

Whatever the current EULA is, it let's me install games I've already purchased on steam to multiple PC's and play those game on any of them as long as I'm logged into my steam account. But only one instance of one game can be running at any time. Tell me, how is playing on GFN(VM) any different then the current situation. It's literally the same thing.

The PC at my cousins house isn't mine, I'm just borrowing it to play my steam library. He may not charge me for it but that's his choice.

This is literally devs wanting you to pay again to access games you've already purchased, on another hardware. Whether they are in the right legally, we don't really care. It just comes off as scummy and greedy. And I'm not even into streaming and I despise Stadia. But I can still see the shit devs are pulling.

Is your cousin a massive corporation, heavily involved in the games industry, offering a mass market commercial solution for this kind of streaming, using other developers intellectual property?

Because if they are not, then no that is not what I am saying and I suggest reading my posts again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,302
Again, Tim Longo was not the Project Lead, Chris Lee is the head of Halo Infinite's development.
That's not the "only permission". Nvidia have been emailing devs asking them to sign contracts granting permission to support games.


I am quite sure that it would be controversial if Microsoft said that all existing games on Xbox will be available on xcloud, without Microsoft having sought out developer/publisher permission, and without it being accounted for in their publishing contracts.

I'm talking about xcloud itself, you can stream any of your Xbox games right to your windows 10 computer can you not?
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,428
I'm talking about xcloud itself, you can stream any of your Xbox games right to your windows 10 computer can you not?

From your own console, yes. That's just Remote Play.

I don't believe they've shared exactly how xCloud streaming will work from the cloud. They've said it'll support Game Pass but no solid info yet outside of what's available in the closed beta.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,541
I honestly think that would not have any effect. If the main reason is that developers are removing their games is because they want a cut out the profits, the same thing will happen if Nvidia gives you a full windows PC to install any other programs you own. Although I believe that would help in a court environment, but I think it is clear Nvidia doesn't want to sue developers to force them into including their games on Geforce Now.

Devs want a cut, but the reason they feel entitled to a cut is because they believe Nvidia is capitalizing on their IP. I disagree, but it's hard to argue the point when nvidia bills the service as game streaming and only allows users to play harnes.

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on if Nvidia was selling it as pc rental service instead of a game streaming service. No pub would be able go request games be blocked by Nvidia because Nvidia wouldn't be involved in what software a customer decides to install.

I believe the whole conversation would have been different as the perception would have been that users are using the service as they see fit, rather than Nvidia amassing a game library to sell to consumers. With that approach, I bet devs would have seen value in opting into the Geoforce Now GUI instead of being that annoying dev that requires players to use a work around.
 
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LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,157
From your own console, yes. That's just Remote Play.

I don't believe they've shared exactly how xCloud streaming will work from the cloud. They've said it'll support Game Pass but no solid info yet outside of what's available in the closed beta.
I certainly doubt it'll be "we're launching with all game purchases being supported on xCloud (even years old purchases) without getting permission from the publisher, and then we'll pull support for games after the fact when publishers are unhappy about it."

I imagine Microsoft will get their ducks in a row and have publishers on board before it fully launches. This will probably mean that some Xbox games won't available on xCloud.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,428
I certainly doubt it'll be "we're launching with all game purchases being supported on xCloud (even years old purchases) without getting permission from the publisher, and then we'll pull support for games after the fact when publishers are unhappy about it."

I imagine Microsoft will get their ducks in a row and have publishers on board before it fully launches. This will probably mean that some Xbox games won't available on xCloud.

Definitely inclined to agree.
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,565
Yup, and the fact that you'd reconsider your subscription based on publishers participating is the evidence that nvidia is benefitting from leverage others' IP.
I mean, the service obviously loses value if you can't do what it advertises (namely installing and playing your game libraries remotely). What interest would there be if you can't actually play games on it, or if you're arbitrarily limited by what you're allowed to play? That has nothing to do with specific games being available, which is only the case due to games getting blacklisted.
With that approach, I bet devs would have seen value in opting into the Geoforce Now GUI instead of being that annoying dev that requires players to use a work around.
Is there an actual working workaround? That might make me interested in the service again. I thought there was no way around the blacklist.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,541
I mean, the service obviously loses value if you can't do what it advertises (namely installing and playing your game libraries remotely). What interest would there be if you can't actually play games on it, or if you're arbitrarily limited by what you're allowed to play? That has nothing to do with specific games being available, which is only the case due to games getting blacklisted.
Is there an actual working workaround? That might make me interested in the service again. I thought there was no way around the blacklist.

My argument is that Nvidia should broaden what users can do with the service by allowing users to install ANY software they want - like a typical VM rental service. This would 1) eliminate the argument that the value is solely derived from the games library and 2) it would remove any liability, real or imagined, that Nvidia should or even could screen what games users can install.

There is no work around now, But if Nvidia took the general PC rental approach, any game that got yanked from the GeoForce Now GUI could simply be installed outside of it... just like gamers can do now on any other pc rental service.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,717
Devs want a cut, but the reason they feel entitled to a cut is because they believe Nvidia is capitalizing on their IP. I disagree, but it's hard to argue the point when nvidia bills the service as game streaming and only allows users to play harnes.

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on if Nvidia was selling it as pc rental service instead of a game streaming service. No pub would be able go request games be blocked by Nvidia because Nvidia wouldn't be involved in what software a customer decides to install.

I believe the whole conversation would have been different as the perception would have been that users are using the service as they see fit, rather than Nvidia amassing a game library to sell to consumers. With that approach, I bet devs would have seen value in opting into the Geoforce Now GUI instead of being that annoying dev that requires players to use a work around.

So under your estimation if Nvidia turns geforce now into a "rent a cloud windows PC" service, all of the them would be OK with Nvidia allowing for everyone to install Steam, Origin, Bethesda, with all of their games?
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,541
So under your estimation if Nvidia turns geforce now into a "rent a cloud windows PC" service, all of the them would be OK with Nvidia allowing for everyone to install Steam, Origin, Bethesda, with all of their games?

What could they do about it? Has any software company ever pulled their legally licensed software from a VM service? On what grounds?
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,717
What could they do about it? Has any software company ever pulled their legally licensed software from a VM service? On what grounds?

This is the key thing you are not understanding. If a developer writes in their EULA "no cloud gaming allowed", then no cloud gaming is allowed. They can decide to enforce this or not. The difference with Geforce Now and Shadow is that developers can smell the money with Nvidia. This is what I mentioned about what was the key problem here. The problem here is not how Nvidia decides to name their service or if they give you access to a full windows PC or not. This is basic, developers recognized how popular Geforce Now is getting and they see how they can leverage their game library to get more money.
 
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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It literally is in this case.

If you believe otherwise tell me all the ways consumers benefit by developers disallowing companies like Nvidia from streaming games they've already paid for.

I was confused by this reply until I re-read my post and realized it's confusing as fuck, sorry. >_< I meant that saying "it's not anti-consumer" (what Pyro said) doesn't make it true, because of course it's anti-consumer. I'll go edit it.

Edit: There, made it as unambiguous as I possibly can. :D
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
They are not sending a copy of the game, as has been stated many many many times already in this thread, they are sending you a video stream. Unless you are arguing that every time you watch a stream on twitch you need to buy a copy of the game you are watching?
Every game on Twitch is only being streamed with the permission of the developer. Devs have the right to insist nobody streams their game. That's is a categorical fact. Nintendo used to insist they got a cut of any streaming or YouTube revenue of their games, and only stopped because it meant in practice nobody streamed their games.

I am not sure GFN is copying, reproducing or broadcasting a copy of a game.
Also in your example people didn't buy a license. I think renting cloud pc hardware for personal use is something that would and should be judged by different standards.
If GFN didn't broadcast the game, you wouldn't be able to see it or interact with it. They obviously are. They are broadcasting it to you.

Different laws apply to different things. There a ton of laws that apply specifically to broadcasting television. When it comes to software, I don't think we know what would happen if this went to court. There could be major implications for businesses that have nothing to do with video games.
No. What GFN is doing constitutes a public performance. You as a member of the public can sign up, and you ask GFN to perform a copyrighted work for you at your request. They need a license to do that. It all comes down to copyright. You are allowed to record OTA TV signals in the USA. It's considered a form of fair use. Aereo figured that if they just leased the hardware to you and only performed actions under customer direction, they wouldn't need a license. The courts soundly rejected that argument and decided that what Aereo was doing was a public performance. In this case, GFN is no different.

Aereo had the right to receive and store OTA TV signals for their own private use. So does anyone else in the USA. Nobody has the right to transmit them to other people though. Just because you have the private right to make use of a copyrighted work doesn't mean you have the right to direct anyone else to perform it for you.

Also, when I posted last night I was tired and didn't even read the Verge article fully. When I read it today, I was surprised to find even they reference the Aereo case. It's such an obvious comparison because they are basically doing very similar things.

You might not remember this, but back in the early 2000's there were lots of companies trying to make it big by basically ignoring copyright and hoping they could strike deals when the money started coming in. You had filesharing applications that claimed they never actually touched copyrighted work, and you had music storage lockers that claimed they were just a backup store. All of them got sued by the MPAA/RIAA. Everyone eventually agreed license terms.

Actually, there is no copy of the game made. The files and code are still on the hardware in the server center.
The only thing that gets transferred is the output that is displayed on your PC. No copy of the game is being made so there would be no copyright infringement perse. The work stays where it is and you can play with the output by inputting commands which is the intended way of interacting with the work.
That's why it's also different to TV and cannot be compared.
GFN has to copy the game to their servers to run it on their servers. They need to then copy the output of the game across the internet to you. That is a public performance.

Your also redistributing when you play your games on another PC or console whether via streaming or otherwise. Are you going to happily allow these companies to take your rights and charge you for that gracious service. Wonder what happens when a hardware you own breaks down.
That is actually the reason why some publishers claim they can restrict your ability to copy games you've bought across multiple systems. It's because copyright gives them the monopoly on those rights. In jurisdictions where personal copying is allowed, it's because there are certain exceptions such as fair use.

I think the problem is that copyright was developed when copying required massive printing presses. A lot of the ideas underpinning it don't make any sense in a world where we all carry devices capable of making endless copies of everything, and where copying is a prerequisite for even seeing copyrighted work on our devices. Most of the reforms that have taken place for copyright have largely been to protect the interests of rightsholders. There are some good things - like the DMCA safe harbour - but for the most part rightsholders actually have massive discretion when it comes to controlling how their work is reproduced and performed.

I think that's wrong, but that is how it is.
 

Kinggroin

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,392
Uranus, get it?!? YOUR. ANUS.
Every game on Twitch is only being streamed with the permission of the developer. Devs have the right to insist nobody streams their game. That's is a categorical fact. Nintendo used to insist they got a cut of any streaming or YouTube revenue of their games, and only stopped because it meant in practice nobody streamed their games.


If GFN didn't broadcast the game, you wouldn't be able to see it or interact with it. They obviously are. They are broadcasting it to you.


No. What GFN is doing constitutes a public performance. You as a member of the public can sign up, and you ask GFN to perform a copyrighted work for you at your request. They need a license to do that. It all comes down to copyright. You are allowed to record OTA TV signals in the USA. It's considered a form of fair use. Aereo figured that if they just leased the hardware to you and only performed actions under customer direction, they wouldn't need a license. The courts soundly rejected that argument and decided that what Aereo was doing was a public performance. In this case, GFN is no different.

Aereo had the right to receive and store OTA TV signals for their own private use. So does anyone else in the USA. Nobody has the right to transmit them to other people though. Just because you have the private right to make use of a copyrighted work doesn't mean you have the right to direct anyone else to perform it for you.

Also, when I posted last night I was tired and didn't even read the Verge article fully. When I read it today, I was surprised to find even they reference the Aereo case. It's such an obvious comparison because they are basically doing very similar things.

You might not remember this, but back in the early 2000's there were lots of companies trying to make it big by basically ignoring copyright and hoping they could strike deals when the money started coming in. You had filesharing applications that claimed they never actually touched copyrighted work, and you had music storage lockers that claimed they were just a backup store. All of them got sued by the MPAA/RIAA. Everyone eventually agreed license terms.


GFN has to copy the game to their servers to run it on their servers. They need to then copy the output of the game across the internet to you. That is a public performance.


That is actually the reason why some publishers claim they can restrict your ability to copy games you've bought across multiple systems. It's because copyright gives them the monopoly on those rights. In jurisdictions where personal copying is allowed, it's because there are certain exceptions such as fair use.

I think the problem is that copyright was developed when copying required massive printing presses. A lot of the ideas underpinning it don't make any sense in a world where we all carry devices capable of making endless copies of everything, and where copying is a prerequisite for even seeing copyrighted work on our devices. Most of the reforms that have taken place for copyright have largely been to protect the interests of rightsholders. There are some good things - like the DMCA safe harbour - but for the most part rightsholders actually have massive discretion when it comes to controlling how their work is reproduced and performed.

I think that's wrong, but that is how it is.

Isn't this a unicast (single sender, single recipient) and NOT a broadcast (single sender, multiple recipients)?

There's enough distinction here to make it not a 1:1 comparison to YouTube or twitch streaming.
 

DammitLloyd

Member
Oct 25, 2017
786
Is your cousin a massive corporation, heavily involved in the games industry, offering a mass market commercial solution for this kind of streaming, using other developers intellectual property?

Because if they are not, then no that is not what I am saying and I suggest reading my posts again.
I wasn't being serious about the cousin thing obviously. But please do read my post again as well.

Whatever the current EULA is, it let's me install games I've already purchased on steam to multiple PC's and play those game on any of them as long as I'm logged into my steam account. But only one instance of one game can be running at any time. Tell me, how is playing on GFN(VM) any different then the current situation. It's literally the same thing.

Their games were being streamed through GFN during beta, when it was free. But now that there's a paid option, devs/pubs want Nvidia to ask for permission? They should be more transparent and just come out and say we want some of that money too.
 

the_wart

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,267
No. What GFN is doing constitutes a public performance.

That... doesn't seem right? Any cloud computing that sends an output to clients would be considered public performance under this framing, wouldn't it? GFN isn't broadcasting anything to the public, it's setting up private virtual machines from which people can stream to their own private screens. Granted, these are VMs tailored to a very specific purpose.
 

Thardin

Member
Jan 7, 2018
926
This is the key thing you are not understanding. If a developer writes in their EULA "no cloud gaming allowed", then no cloud gaming is allowed. They can decide to enforce this or not. The difference with Geforce Now and Shadow is that developers can smell the money with Nvidia. This is what I mentioned about what was the key problem here. The problem here is not how Nvidia decides to name their service or if they give you access to a full windows PC or not. This is basic, developers recognized how popular Geforce Now is getting and they see how they can leverage their game library to get more money.

How on earth would they enforce it? If it is a full on virtual machine it is essentially like installing steam and the game on the computer right in front of you. The display and inputs/outputs are just being mirrored from a server somewhere.
 

Csr

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,039
If GFN didn't broadcast the game, you wouldn't be able to see it or interact with it. They obviously are. They are broadcasting it to you.

They are sending video of you playing the game not a copy of it's files.
Twitch and youtube is not the same as it is broadcasting that video to thousands of others that haven't purchased a license and has there even been a court case against twitch? Honest question.

My point is that these are different times with new technologies, each case requires unique treatment, i don't think examples of that dvr renting company case or cases that apply to broadcasting TV prove that NVIDIA would lose in a court.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,717
How on earth with they enforce it? If it is a full on virtual machine it is essentially like installing steam and the game on the computer right in front of you. The display and inputs/outputs are just being mirrored from a server somewhere.

As easy as they are enforcing it now. Do you think developers care if you load Microsoft Word and then Steam or only Steam? It is as easy as saying to Nvidia "I want you to stop anyone that wants to load my game on your virtual PC". Nvidia is only allowing you to load a select library of approved games on Geforce Now, the same would happen on a virtual windows PC. Don't get me wrong, if you see all of my posts on this thread and others you will see that I don't agree at all with this, but I'm seeing several people trying to make the case that Nvidia somehow wouldn't be stopped if they just give you access to a full windows PC. Try to play this in your mind, tomorrow Nvidia says, "you have access to a full windows PC on our service, you can install any program you want." Do you think that Activision and Bethesda would just say "Oh OK, they now can load Photoshop as well as our games on the virtual PC, so we will allow it now", because that was their reason to stop Nvidia in the first place right? No, this is about a popular cloud gaming service renting a PC in the cloud, whether or not is a full windows PC or only a locked gaming PC is irrelevant. The same companies would be demanding Nvidia to block access to their games on these virtual PCs running full Windows.
 
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mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Yup, and the fact that you'd reconsider your subscription based on publishers participating is the evidence that nvidia is benefitting from leverage others' IP.

I think the situation sucks too, because I don't agree with the dissenting devs, I just think their argument is compelling enough to keep me from getting what I think is best.

If i was Nvidia I'd rebrand as a general pc rental service. Have a permanent desktop application called "Geoforce Now" that is opt-in for publishers- this app would be the experience we see today.

Also, Allow users to install whatever software they want outside of that geoforce app.

Devs could no longer argue their IP is being leveraged without consent.

This is such an odd take. If we made an analogy of renting Nvidia's cloud to saving tv programs on DVR I wonder if you would continue to use this twisted logic.