• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

The Verge: "Google tries shaming Apple into adopting RCS with #getthemessage campaign"

Royalan

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,943
Foltzie said:
So folks w/o carrier service can't share pictures? I can use iMessage on multiple devices w/o carrier service, works great.

Other than pictures and videos I'm not sure what problems RCS solves for end users, which is a big deal I concur. Its not encryption as that is not built into the standard and is app implementation specific.

Though I would find it funny to see Apple build an RCS implementation to sit under iMessage as a point to route around Google owning RCS.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But this is a convenience, not a necessity, as that twitter thread is arguing.

Yeah, through my carrier service and Google's implementation of RCS, I can also access most of my phone's features through the My Phone app on Windows or a web browser. Yes, my carrier service is involved in that, but that's not a problem because I have carrier service, as do millions of other Americans. And those who don't, but for some reason want to be able to send pics and videos to phones, have access to other services to do so.

RCS isn't a perfect solution, but in many ways neither is iMessage. But that's not a strong argument for Apple not adopting what is increasingly becoming the modern global standard for texting, and keeping the texting experience between iOS and Android logged somewhere between ICQ and Aim.
 
timshundo

timshundo

CANCEL YOUR AMAZON PRIME
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,156
CA
RCS has been a weird mish-mash beta product up until very recently tho. And let's not pretend this is some OS-agnostic open standard thing, it's been mostly Google-led, aka creators of Google Chat/Google+/Google Hangouts/Allo.

Apple will probably adopt RCS next year and will probs barely even mention it if at all because it's not a privacy win. Probably a privacy-neutral feature, even tho it seems like your message has to be relayed through Google servers where it sits until it's successfully delivered?
 
Chaos Legion

Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,912
It is strange that Apple wouldn't simply choose RCS as the fallback. It would greatly improve the experience for those of us with Android friends and still would be inferior to iMessaging
 
julia crawford

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,175
RCSI

RCSI

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
Sorry I can't offer anything meaningful to the discussion, but this was a confusing thread to parse...
 
Sonix

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
Royalan said:
is increasingly becoming the modern global standard for texting
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Where?
This is just a US-thing. Even more, its just a Google marketing campaign in the US.

This shit was pushed heavily in Germany in the mid-2010s as "Joyn" and failed horribly. People did not forget having to pay 25 cents per SMS message. Nobody wants to give carriers control back.

Americans won't download an App but rathert force the whole world into a shitty protocol living in Googles servers and controlled by Carriers.
 
Foltzie

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,784
Royalan said:
But this is a convenience, not a necessity, as that twitter thread is arguing.

Yeah, through my carrier service and Google's implementation of RCS, I can also access most of my phone's features through the My Phone app on Windows or a web browser. Yes, my carrier service is involved in that, but that's not a problem because I have carrier service, as do millions of other Americans. And those who don't, but for some reason want to be able to send pics and videos to phones, have access to other services to do so.

RCS isn't a perfect solution, but in many ways neither is iMessage. But that's not a strong argument for Apple not adopting what is increasingly becoming the modern global standard for texting, and keeping the texting experience between iOS and Android logged somewhere between ICQ and Aim.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So, the answer is no, Google's RCS doesn't offer users w/o phone service access. Which is fine SMS doesn't work that way either, but its definitely a perk of other messaging platforms.

I can "text" just fine between iOS and Android using SMS, WhatsApp, Signal, Discord, Snapchat, FB messages. and thats just without opening my phone and checking whatever messaging apps I have installed.

Still doesn't explain to me why Apple should be forced to use Googles RCS closed implementation instead of their own closed implementation, as the US carrier support is lacking (at least one company just went live within the last 5 months) and international support is worse.
 
OgTheEnigma

OgTheEnigma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,803
Liverpool
I don't see how RCS is a direct successor over SMS. It doesn't work without internet.

I keep 4G turned off on my phone when not using it, as guarantee to prevent rogue apps from using data. There's also times where I can't get enough of a signal for an internet connection, but can still send texts. RCS would be useless then.
 
Foltzie

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,784
RCSI said:
Sorry I can't offer anything meaningful to the discussion, but this was a confusing thread to parse...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Google wants Apple to use RCS and is lobbying advertising about the topic, but RCS isn't a widely adopted standard yet (and may never be), so they are really saying Apple should use Google's own implementation of RCS.
 
NekoNeko

NekoNeko

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,447
it's never going to happen but i would love if we had an open standard again and everyone can use the app they like. text from whatsapp to signal to imessage.

as it stands it's not a big deal because everyone in my corner of the world uses the same app (whatsapp) anyway.
 
killerrin

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
Toronto
linkboy said:
SMS is part of the GSM standard (which is the technology that 4G and 5G networks are built upon). it's not something that Google, Apple or any cell phone provider has control over.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
RCS is also apart of the GSM standard

Sullivan said:
RCS only recently got supported by all American carriers, it's still not supported by a lot of worldwide carriers. You want Apple to support a brand new service that's backed by Google that has had teething problems in such a short time frame?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What a impediment that is. Its not like iMessage literally already supports a fallback between MMS and SMS. And all SMS would do is just add a third fallback item that goes from RCS->MMS->SMS

Sullivan said:
Sure, but what about issues of Google storing a bunch of iPhone users messages in their servers and having control over them?

Why would Apple, a company who prides themselves on privacy, ever agree to that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The standard literally supports encryption. And if you get Apple on Board you can literally strongarm the carriers into properly supporting RCS so that you dont need to use the Google backdrop. Fuck, Apple could also just host their own encryption server and do the same thing Google is doing, then dare Google to support them. Or they could just support the standard as written and make this all go away by putting the onus on Google to (alone) go convince the carriers to increase support for the true standard. And all of this is literally meaningless because SMS and MMS literally already doesn't encrypt messages so Google literally already has access to every single bloody message Apple users have already sent to Android users.

Sullivan said:
This is not true.
T-mobile supported in 2020, I believe AT&T in 2021. Verizon in 2021 as well.
www.macrumors.com

All Three Major U.S. Carriers and Google Adopt Rich Communication Services, But No Sign of Apple Interest

For the last several years, Google has been pushing a new communications protocol called Rich Communication Services, or RCS. RCS is designed to...
www.macrumors.com www.macrumors.com

SMS is limited in spam since you aren't sending nicely designed widgets that are made for ads. But what else would I expect from a Google product :)

FS9e8sCUYAAGXBG.jpg
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

SMS literally already supports Ads. Its why I get spam and ads every other month or so. Its why all I have to do is click that fancy menu button and click block. Or just delete the damn thing without even looking at it. Not only that. The senders of this shit are actually validated and its much easier to tell Scams apart from everything else, which is a godsend for elderly users who are easily fooled because the messaging app could easily, if the developers cared enough, pop up a message saying quite clearly. "This message is from an unverified sender. Do dont send your personal information" or you can just block it outright in the settings.

Foltzie said:
Can someone explain to me why Apple should be "forced" to use Google's solution for RCS?

If you aren't, RCS as it stands now is a shit show between carries. A quick perusal indicates that US carriers do not universally support RCS yet. I'm looking at one who only offers RCS on certain postpaid plans only. So nothing on Mint, Cricket, or Visible.

Are you folks demanding that people stop using WhatsApp, Signal, ect? Because thats effectively what you are doing if you argue that only Google's RCS solution should be used. . .

and as a former user of several of Googles now retired messaging products. No Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
1) RCS is a GSM Industry Standard. It doesn't need Google
2) Apple doesn't have to use Googles version of RCS. They can quite easily just support the Standard as written and then put the blame to the Carriers if Google tries to complain.
3) If iOS and Android both support the standard as written, guess where the pressure goes for Carriers to get the shit together?

Sonix said:
Americans won't download an App but rathert force the whole world into a shitty protocol living in Googles servers and controlled by Carriers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Congratulations then. Literally nothing changes for you if you already use a separate app like the rest of the world!
 
Royalan

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,943
Sonix said:
Where?
This is just a US-thing. Even more, its just a Google marketing campaign in the US.

This shit was pushed heavily in Germany in the mid-2010s as "Joyn" and failed horribly. People did not forget having to pay 25 cents per SMS message. Nobody wants to give carriers control back.

Americans won't download an App but rathert force the whole world into a shitty protocol living in Googles servers and controlled by Carriers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Nobody is denying that this is an American problem.

And again, the issue isn't an app. Google's tried this with several apps over the years. The reason Americans at large won't download an app is because the incentive to download an app like many other countries faced simply didn't exist in the US. This comes up in every single one of these threads: US carriers nixxed pay-per-text plans years before a lot of other countries did. That's really all there is to it.

I remember being in college and being introduced to WhatsApp by friends abroad...as a way to get around paying for texts! By that point, that had all but ceased to exist in the US. So whereas many other countries had monetary incentives to adopt alternative P2P messaging apps, for Americans there wasn't much reason to not use that app that came with the phone... and until just a few years ago they weren't wrong!

You have to understand that cultural context to understand why this conversation plays out like it does in the US. It's not just Americans...American-ing
 
pyxl_8

pyxl_8

Member
Oct 27, 2017
928
The problem I've had with RCS is that when switching from Android to iOS, it took about 72 hours for RCS to actually deactivate for my number and SMS to get picked up in existing conversations, so 3 days worth of communication (some urgent) just went into a black hole until I turned my old phone on again.
 
zerocypher

zerocypher

Member
Oct 27, 2017
575
Both have their flaws and both are too stubborn to figure out a better solution. Apple not sharing and solely using iMessage is very much like BBM back in the day. Also, green bubble shaming is petty. Elitist of either side need to get their heads out of their asses.

How much compression does Signal do with images and videos? Whatsapp is tolerable and it's nice they sort of let you adjust the compression of photos now but I'm not keen on sharing data with Meta.
 
EntelechyFuff

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,142
I have two problems with this:

1. is that it's pathetic for a massive corporate entity to publicly "shame" another because they haven't been able to counter the value proposition in...what...15 years now. Because that's what this is really about. Green bubble stigma changes 0% if sending pics/vids gets easier, I guarantee it.

2. The much bigger one, is corporations getting damn close to appropriating the language of real, interpersonal conflict and harm. Language regarding actual abuse is already used in pretty cavalier ways, and Google complaining about bullying makes this worse. Google does not care about protecting people from bullying, period.
 

ruggiex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,079
pyxl_8 said:
The problem I've had with RCS is that when switching from Android to iOS, it took about 72 hours for RCS to actually deactivate for my number and SMS to get picked up in existing conversations, so 3 days worth of communication (some urgent) just went into a black hole until I turned my old phone on again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well if Apple supported RCS, it would just flow over to your iPhone once it's activated there.
 
Lord Error

Lord Error

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Mafro said:
As someone outside America that's been happily using WhatsApp for years to talk to friends cross-platform, this whole situation always seems weird to me. Why is it such a US-centric problem? Is the "peer pressure" and "bullying" towards green bubbles really that bad?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Having facebook, of all companies, be in charge of everyone's communication is one of the worst possible solutions long term, so Apple supporting RCS would be great. It would overnight make all these 3rd party chat apps practically pointless.
 
NinjaScooter

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,126
This seems like it serves as further reason for Apple to just keep iMessage proprietary. Your competitor is basically acknowledging this thing you do is better/more popular than what they do.
 
Foltzie

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,784
killerrin said:
1) RCS is a GSM Industry Standard. It doesn't need Google
2) Apple doesn't have to use Googles version of RCS. They can quite easily just support the Standard as written and then put the blame to the Carriers if Google tries to complain.
3) If iOS and Android both support the standard as written, guess where the pressure goes for Carriers to get the shit together?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why would/should Apple or anyone implement a standard that would fails to work with consistently, there are lots of standards that are ignored (just look at USB and HDMI for examples). Google's self implementation of RCS is indicative that pushing the carriers wasnt/isnt an option.

It's completely OK for Google to have their own walled garden with its RCS+ implementation (heck its the only way you're getting E2E it seems*), but lets not be naive.

*I wager us carriers are in no rush to push for a GSM modification to RCS to enable E2E as a part of the base protocol.
 
ceej

ceej

Member
Mar 9, 2021
4,232
Reno, Nv.
Foltzie said:
So good that Google has functionally made RCS proprietary in order to offer E2E. Embrace, Extend, and something!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
from the ars article.
As a standard, there's no encryption. Google tried to glom features onto the aging RCS spec, but if you consider those part of the RCS sales pitch, which Google does, now it's more like you selling "Google's proprietary fork of RCS." Google would really like it if Apple built its proprietary RCS fork into iMessage.

Google's version of RCS—the one promoted on the website with Google-exclusive features like optional encryption—is definitely proprietary, by the way. If this is supposed to be a standard, there's no way for a third-party to use Google's RCS APIs right now. Some messaging apps, like Beeper, have asked Google about integrating RCS and were told there's no public RCS API and no plans to build one. Google has an RCS API already, but only Samsung is allowed to use it because Samsung signed some kind of partnership deal.

If you want to implement RCS, you'll need to run the messages through some kind of service, and who provides that server? It will probably be Google. Google bought Jibe, the leading RCS server provider, in 2015. Today it has a whole sales pitch about how Google Jibe can "help carriers quickly scale RCS services, iterate in short cycles, and benefit from improvements immediately." So the pitch for Apple to adopt RCS isn't just this public-good nonsense about making texts with Android users better; it's also about running Apple's messages through Google servers. Google profits in both server fees and data acquisition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Septimus

Septimus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,582
Apple doesn't really fold under pressure at all, so good luck lol.

IF they eventually do, they should just add the RCS features and keep those messages green. Win-win for both parties.
 
bremon

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,853
I find texting media to and from android a pain in the ass but luckily I only have 4 android users in my life so it's not a big deal. They're worth it lol. Don't give a fuck about RCS, but I also don't use group chats.
 
Dr PeterVenkman

Dr PeterVenkman

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,215
as an android user with lots of friends who use iphone, the peer pressure is real. even in our late 30s. constant comments about compressed images and videos being the fault of the android users in the group chat. it's not super serious. but it is super annoying. and attempts at various times to use whatsapp or group.me or something similar have largely failed because most of them don't want another app just for a group chat. they want it all in one place with all the same features.

A number of years ago when i was dating, I received numerous comments from various women about the green bubble. as if it was some sort of sign of poverty or something that makes me "unworthy" and while I agree that someone who actually thinks that is not worth the time of day. this is the kind of brand loyalty and "everyone should have an iphone" mentality that most americans have. i'm not sure this is the right tact, but as someone who is super annoyed by this issue, whatever. I wish apple would do something about it, but i'm not holding my breath.
 

ruggiex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,079
Septimus said:
Apple doesn't really fold under pressure at all, so good luck lol.

IF they eventually do, they should just add the RCS features and keep those messages green. Win-win for both parties.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Green bubble is less of an issue if it doesn't reduce the basic functionality. I'm sure Apple will continue to make some features exclusive to the iMessage protocol and that's really fine.

I don't see Apple implementing RCS unless it's coming from legislators and good luck with that in the US.
 
Foltzie

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,784
ceej said:
from the ars article.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I was being polite, but yeah Googles RCS is 100% proprietary. Any suggestion to the alternative is just naïveté at best.

It may still be useful for Apple to support RCS universal profile at some point, but thats not now as the experience would be horrible for users. Anyone wanting to demonstrate that can disable using Google's RCS on their Android device and try to message someone else on Android and see what happens. I bet a nickel it falls back to SMS nearly 100% of time.
 
Sonix

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
Royalan said:
Nobody is denying that this is an American problem.

And again, the issue isn't an app. Google's tried this with several apps over the years.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Googles messaging apps failed in Europe as well, where there was a large incentive to use them instead of the old solutions. They didnt stick either. We use Whatsapp, Signal, Threema, Telegram.

Royalan said:
I remember being in college and being introduced to WhatsApp by friends abroad...as a way to get around paying for texts! By that point, that had all but ceased to exist in the US. So whereas many other countries had monetary incentives to adopt alternative P2P messaging apps, for Americans there wasn't much reason to not use that app that came with the phone... and until just a few years ago they weren't wrong!

You have to understand that cultural context to understand why this conversation plays out like it does in the US. It's not just Americans...American-ing
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Your cultural context (yes, I 'm being petty with calling out Americans) essentially would result in making my Phone actively worse (as an European with an iPhone) just so "you americans" don't have to change your habits even a little bit.

Possibly routing messages I send which I intend to be iMessages (or SMS) through Googles servers makes the service worse for me.

Opening my phone up to RCS Spam abuse which I normally won't get makes the service worse.

Google then pushing every ANdroid user super hard to use RCS when they forced it down oin all of us will make messaging in general worse because people might not bother with dedicated messaging apps anymore.

THis is why I strongly oppose this stuff.
 
Dodongo

Dodongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,462
Apple makes the texting experience worse for most of their users, just to maintain a closed ecosystem.

It's pretty ridiculous that they won't support industry standards until the EU literally forces them.
 
trashbandit

trashbandit

Member
Dec 19, 2019
3,910
LewieP said:
Primarily using the default messaging app is kinda boomer though, just use WhatsApp or telegram etc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In the U.S., the only way to avoid using the default apps without being "that tech weirdo trying to get you to use a low-adoption app" is to use Instagram, Snapchat, or Messenger, but honestly, a lot of people do just use whatever default app they've got installed. WhatsApp is exclusively the domain of "I want to message someone from out of the country".
 
Cuburger

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
It's so weird that anti-RCS have to resort to implicitly arguing that SMS/MMS is a better solution and the only other solutions are "lol just download WhatsApp as well as get everyone else to download it and use it as their regular messaging app" or "lol just buy an iPhone".

Apple shouldn't have to meet others in the middle to figure out a solution that works for everyone or offer iMessage on other platforms, it's about how everyone else didn't make things easier for Apple and their closed ecosystem.

It's like console exclusivity all over again. No, actually it's like when Sony refused to make cross-platform multiplayer available despite Microsoft and Nintendo being on-board because it would give up their advantage in the space but Sony and their fans could only try to argue that, well actually it's not as safe and the experience is so much worse and you really wouldn't actually want a solution like that despite there being some very clear advantages to a solution like that.
 
killerrin

killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
Toronto
grmlin said:
That's something I never understood. For me it's just the information which messaging service I'm using. Even if Apple implemented a RCS fallback I would want to know that I use this instead of iMessage
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Heck, even on Android RCS messages are a different color from SMS/MMS. In Google Messages RCS becomes a deep blue instead of gray, and you also have extra indicators for read reciepts.

Foltzie said:
Why would/should Apple or anyone implement a standard that would fails to work with consistently, there are lots of standards that are ignored (just look at USB and HDMI for examples). Google's self implementation of RCS is indicative that pushing the carriers wasnt/isnt an option.

It's completely OK for Google to have their own walled garden with its RCS+ implementation (heck its the only way you're getting E2E it seems*), but lets not be naive.

*I wager us carriers are in no rush to push for a GSM modification to RCS to enable E2E as a part of the base protocol.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because they literally already do it with other standards. Before MMS was widely used MMS was literally in the same situation and yet Apple happily added support and options in the settings for MMS and MMS fallback when a carrier either didn't support it or charged extra money for it.

It costs Apple literally nothing to add the standard as a fallback. It costs them nothing to use the standard as written. And they can even weaponize it against Google if they wanted to be petty about it. There is literally zero downside to them doing it.
 
Bucca

Bucca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,227
While it would be nice for everyone, I'm pretty sure iMessage and its ability to integrate with their ecosystem is like one of their top reasons why Apple doesn't budge on it
 
m_shortpants

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,205
The best part is Apple uses Google Cloud for iCloud storage anyway ...

Also, it shows the vanity of Apples privacy stances when it forces its users to use 25 year old unencrypted messaging, just because the person they're talking to doesn't have an iPhone.
 
Jebusman

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
I would just like companies to actually follow published standards, would really be nice for my job that we don't have to work around everyone doing their own thing
 
skeptem

skeptem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,745
JimD said:
The vast, and I mean VAST, majority of people in the US have iPhones and use iMessage exclusively. Like you can't argue that people should just use WhatsApp or Signal when that ship has already sailed. Those apps have been around for years and gained no traction in the US.

The green bubble thing is absolutely real. And not even just kids being petty. I know a bunch of grown ass adults in their 30s and 40s who will exclude friends from group chats if they have an Android. Nobody wants the horribly compressed video or complaints about reactions coming through as additional texts.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree with your points, but you are incorrect about market share in the US. iOS is more but not that much more.

 
Royalan

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,943
Sonix said:
Possibly routing messages I send which I intend to be iMessages (or SMS) through Googles servers makes the service worse for me.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is already happening anytime you send text to someone using Android via iMessage. So I'm not understanding the hostility here to Americans wanting to push Apple to adopt a newer, feature-rich, more secure, globally adopted standard.
 
SoleSurvivor

SoleSurvivor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,016
I'm left out of family group chats because I have a better phone than the rest of them.

Apple needs to grow up and stop being so petty. I'm an adult, so I don't feel bullied or peer pressured to buy a shittier phone. But I imagine how horrible it would be to be a US teen right now that owns an Android.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.