I don't really understand this. Like when your saving a file using any program I know of it will ask you were to save the file unless already specified. What are these students doing?
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[The Verge] 404: File folders and directories are gibberish to many modern students
- Thread starter Jintor
- Start date
But, the cloud is just a glorified file directory that's simply stored outside your own device. If they can navigate that, they can navigate local directories, too.
Finally. I can confidently say that I'm proud to be a computer literate millennial. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be on IRC using irssi.
what
how do people not know how a file is
ive actually never seen this and im the age of these students
how do people not know how a file is
ive actually never seen this and im the age of these students
I guess not using a device like a traditional PC. They could be writing their class papers on an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard connected. Or maybe just saving to the desktop (which is still a folder but visually it's right there so you don't have to go digging for it).
Engineering students that can't figure basic stuff like this out says to me that they aren't cut out for Engineering.
Im guessing you could have used computers this whole time just strictly through apps that manage your files, just hit save, and open pulls up a list for you. Which just makes me feel like folders didn't go away, they're just apps now.
Even Windows has been moving away from exposing file systems for about 15 years. The concept of "Documents," "Home," "Picture," etc, I guess they used to be called "smart folders," or whatever, don't follow the rules of an exposed file system. And by default Windows has been obscuring the file system for quite a while, I dunno how long but at least Windows 7, maybe earlier.
For instance, by default Windows obscures where this "Pictures" folder is, and many others, by calling it "This PC > Pictures," and even if you use the common technique of clicking into the address to reveal the true location on the volume, it obscures it.
Same with Desktop, Downloads, OneDrive, etc. Even the default display of a traditional folder obscures the file system structure, by making it appear more like breadcrumbs, for instance, a folder location I have saved displays as:
This PC > Data (D:) > Projects > Design Files > public > assets > ...
And each of those is clickable like a breadcrumb.
Ultimately I think these design decisions are for the best. Most users don't need to know any of this. But it does make a technical gap that, for the most part, is unneeded knowledge for most people. And for technical users like me I can still navigate around as quickly as I could 15 years ago and figure out how it works. Although sometimes I still think "Wait..... where the hell is my documents store on volume..."
It's still files, and it's still organized as such. Working in DevOps, something you'll commonly do is deploy encrypted ssh private keys, git/p4 credentials, etc into %USERPROFILE%, both before and after joining a domain.
In this case it's %USERPROFILE%\Pictures, but yeah, they started removing the full path in the UI which is obnoxious. One of the first things that annoys me when VNCing into a Mac is how they hide the files. Just fuck off and show the files, you have to use root to modify some archaic policy to re-enable it.
The yes, the files do matter because I don't think there's any standard with how the OSes want to organize and tag things versus Adobe Lightroom/photoshop. They have different methods, so it's best to organize with files and folders.
And the details do matter, like I nearly permanently deleted years of photos on Google Drive after the upgrade because the terminology about being deleted in 30 days wasn't clear it meant the cloud. I had to inspect what they were doing and when they meant "The files have been moved to the Trash", I initially assumed they poorly localized to Windows and this was a message intended for Linux/Mac, but no they meant Drive trash. Like that's it's one job is to secure files. Fortunately, I was able to restore once I realized.
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Google Photos/Apple Photos/etc. are just photo viewing/managing software. All the directory stuff is done behind the curtain. The end user never sees it.
Same with Google Docs/Office 365/iWork/etc. You give your document a file name, the software just chucks it into a directory that the end user never sees and it just appears in their "recent files" list.
iCloud Backups? All done automatically when you plug your device in to charge and connect to wi-fi.
Nobody's navigating anything.
lol, I remember the several threads on here about all this.
I think they are talking about Drive, OneDrive, Box, DropBox when they are talking about "the cloud" there. In those cases it's the same as Explorer/Finder, just in a browser on your computer.
My cloud storage is with Google Drive and a backup on MS One Drive, and they are just traditional Directories for sure. You just link them to your OS and they are treated like any other folder that you can save things to or access any time really.
I have to agree. Im definitely someone who curates my files and directories to be organized. And I use Android because its always given me the freedom to do so but it does not and has not ever PUSHED that idea. It simply made it available to you if you cared or preferred to do so. It still by default doesn't present or teach you anything about it.
Auto tagging and automated systems are terrible for many reasons too. They still need to be told what tags to use, and how to identify stuff. And the more you want a system to automate your metadata and tagging, the more of your information you have to give to big companies. Your app isn't likely going to be able to give you results of pictures of yourself if it doesn't know what YOU look like.
I have to agree. Im definitely someone who curates my files and directories to be organized. And I use Android because its always given me the freedom to do so but it does not and has not ever PUSHED that idea. It simply made it available to you if you cared or preferred to do so. It still by default doesn't present or teach you anything about it.
Auto tagging and automated systems are terrible for many reasons too. They still need to be told what tags to use, and how to identify stuff. And the more you want a system to automate your metadata and tagging, the more of your information you have to give to big companies. Your app isn't likely going to be able to give you results of pictures of yourself if it doesn't know what YOU look like.
They probably don't use actual desktops and workstations often, and since about Windows 7 Microsoft has been pushing for OneDrive, so they've probably been saving to OneDrive and don't understand what's happening.
I create so many graphics/multimedia files every week I can't imagine not using folders to organize.
Yeah, they should add it if this continues to be a problem.
People are talking about oh well Android and iOS don't need files because of the apps. But these people are going to be developers for Android, iOS and Windows. And do you know what those OSes use meticulously, especially Linux/Android? Files and folders. It will never go away, because fundamentally it's needed to organize an OS.
I've had this happen before, too.
It seems that however the image is being hosted, the phone grabs the original date from the image, so it gets sorted into my library by whenever it was taken rather than treating it as a "recent" file.
Or sometimes it has an impossible date that places it at the very beginning of the photo library.
The lack of any real file management options on iOS is the reason why I could never use it for work.
Or what work I can do on it ends up being moved to another system.
Hierarchical tags look like a file system, except they're much better for navigation since you don't have to drill down five levels deep to find that document you were working on last.
And the tags are not bound by the folder structure if you are searching. You could easily combine two tags to see all the files associated with two different projects, rather than opening up two separate folders.
Nope. This thread is a bunch of text strings stuffed into a large database file in one directory on the internet that is accessed by other files being run through an interpretation process.
I was going to say the same thing but I literally just set up a new computer and downloaded a new version of Office then couldn't figure out how to actually, like, save individual documents to it on the hard drive in specific locations. It was all cloud based or app driven. So I luckily have my old Office 2013 info on file and redownloaded that instead because change is bad.
I'm sure there's a way to do it with the new Office but I was getting frustrated and my old friend 2013 was right there like a cozy blanket.
A DB table is kind of a folder though.
Especially now that Windows can have cross-folders like you can have cross-tables.
I wonder what these kids' default Download folders look like.
And how do they look for something if they need to find it again later? Do they even know how to do a file search in Windows?
As to the "single directory" that someone mentioned, I do have a ton of stuff in my "My Documents" folder, but it also has like 150 subdirectories to keep things organized. Like my music folder, it's organized by artist and then album.. \My Documents\My Music\Lil Nas X\Montero\, for example. It just... makes sense to do it that way. How the hell else would I find a particular song or album that I want to listen to right then?
And how do they look for something if they need to find it again later? Do they even know how to do a file search in Windows?
As to the "single directory" that someone mentioned, I do have a ton of stuff in my "My Documents" folder, but it also has like 150 subdirectories to keep things organized. Like my music folder, it's organized by artist and then album.. \My Documents\My Music\Lil Nas X\Montero\, for example. It just... makes sense to do it that way. How the hell else would I find a particular song or album that I want to listen to right then?
Learned this the hard way while teaching online learning during the pandemic. The students now-a-days are absorbed with technology, but don't have the basic skills to utilize technology. They can tap on an smart phone or tablet no problem, but things like website navigation, document editing, organizing files are completely foreign to them. There legit needs to be basic computer science classes in elementary school to teach them how to use technology. They can't even research because they have absolutely no idea where to start.
No offense but if you keep local music files on your computer you're already on a totally different mindset than most younger people. Those younger generations do not get folder structures because they don't consume anything this way.
So this is funny, it's the first day of proof of vaccination status for using certain services for people in my province and one of my friends in group chat says that they put their vaccination receipt on their home screen as a shortcut. Most of the chat is struggling to get it to work, myself included. I got it eventually. I remember in Android just being able to hit the gear to get to my directory structure, but they moved it into an app now?
This is necessary because the government issued the mandate for today, but won't have the app done for another month...
This is necessary because the government issued the mandate for today, but won't have the app done for another month...
Kids today are absorbed in technology, but much more as consumers of content than as creators. Smart devices aren't suited to heavy lifting in that capacity.
If you can put something in a box and label it you should be able to understand file systems. If you can't even get the concept, something in your education failed along the way.
This is no mistake. Apple, Google, and Microsoft have all been trying to obscure the concept of a filesystem to varying degrees in their operating systems.
Most folks aren't familiar with command line for the same reason. UI Technology progress has made it redundant for most user tasks.
My daughter touched a screen before she ever touched a mouse or trackpad or physical keyboard. Even now she prefers my XPS since it has a touchscreen and that is more intuitive to her.
What's your approach? I'm struggling with this right now.
My daughter touched a screen before she ever touched a mouse or trackpad or physical keyboard. Even now she prefers my XPS since it has a touchscreen and that is more intuitive to her.
What's your approach? I'm struggling with this right now.
If you're not used to a certain OS (here, windows) the file structure can be hard to understand and its not as intuitive as you might think. I thought it was until I started dabbling in Unix-like systems where the file structure is completely different to what I'm used to and I had a billion questions I never thought I would have like where are my files saved when using X program, where are my config files, when I used the app manager where are the programs, etc
Yup, living that cloud life. Companies have shown just enough competency for being able to not lose your files that people implicitly trust them to store everything and keep it forever with 24/7 access.
We're certainly in agreement on the social media part. Though I think these things are only tangentially related, as for normal users, meticulously maintained hierarchical file structures are not really necessary for normal computer operation. But basic competency for accessing frequently used storage repositories SHOULD be, at bare minimum. Especially for engineering students.
I have been teaching this to my son about this. Makes sense I suppose. A lot of their experiences have been with google drives and apps.
This isn't surprising. How many kids are actually using desktops / laptops these days, and then dealing with file management? The only kids that do this are the ones that develop an affinity for technology / gaming.
The majority of kids just use their smartphone or tablet for all of their computing needs (and by computing needs, I mean TikTok and Instagram). The file systems are completely invisible to the user.
The majority of kids just use their smartphone or tablet for all of their computing needs (and by computing needs, I mean TikTok and Instagram). The file systems are completely invisible to the user.
Just make sure there's a place for everything and everything is in its place.
I have Hazel scripts set up to move files off the desktop too after 3 hours if I don't move them manually. It sorts them into the proper folders too. I use tags for categorizing as well. I wish macOS let us use Emoji as the labels though. It would be better than just having 8 colors for everything. I have THREE levels of red for importance of files. So any file that has three red dots is basically labeled "important", "very important", "hot hot hot 🔥".
I've been organizing files since the Windows 95 days.
Yep. If some class I end up teaching coding at some point has loads of people with this problem.... Well, I do love the smell of job security in the evening.
young people's stuff "just works" today. for gen x and millenials, we went thru that early era of computers that involved doing lots of troubleshooting and file management to get things functioning properly. it's like the difference between a modern website builder and the stuff we had to do to make our own websites through geocities back in the old days, or even creating our own "social networks" (webrings, i miss these a lot!) that involved linking to likeminded people as opposed to an algorithm feeding your preferences to you as you endlessly scroll, like, and retweet.
modern tech ecosystems for the end user are incredibly streamlined, so digging through filesystems is very old school.
modern tech ecosystems for the end user are incredibly streamlined, so digging through filesystems is very old school.
But… your hypothetical person is correct. Why would they know that a button not labeled "Start" was called the Start button? That's not a failing on their part.
Yup, seriously - these aren't consumers, they're engineers. How do software engineers make these apps? With code. Where is code? In files, which are compiled with files (gcc/msvc) and generate files (objects, binaries) and install into folders as files. It's a hard requirement to understand these concepts to even begin CS101.
That button hasn't had the word "Start" on it for 14 years. I call it the Windows button, too.
I have to constantly save peoples word documents as web pages to strip out the images and give them back to them because they have absolutely no clue where the photos are on their PC. How they added them to a Word document to begin with is beyond me...
I have a very very very hard time believing these students never had to save a word/excel document and then find it again when word/excel defaults to a different save directory or pull it from a usb drive/cloud or something. I think this story is either being misconstrued or is fake.
Also, I know the pain of overbloated folders. Sometimes when you're working on a project and files are just being generated so fast it does get overwhelming. It's very tempting to want to keep doing "actual" work and just dump everything into a folder instead of "wasting" time to organize things, but overall it is just as important.
Also, I know the pain of overbloated folders. Sometimes when you're working on a project and files are just being generated so fast it does get overwhelming. It's very tempting to want to keep doing "actual" work and just dump everything into a folder instead of "wasting" time to organize things, but overall it is just as important.